2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhy did Colin Powell lie to the world about the fake Iraqi weapons of mass destruction?
Why were people in the state department and other departments so afraid of bush and cheney? Why didn't they refuse to go along? I cannot understand Richard Clarke?
SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Same reason he whitewashed My Lai. Its too bad he misplaced his spine... anyone seen it?
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)You hit exactly the points I was going to.
Aristus
(66,444 posts)He was duty-bound to disobey such an order.
I went through Basic Training for the Army in 1986. My Lai was very much on the minds of our drill sergeants. We had an entire afternoon of classes on the importance of being able to discern a legal, lawful order, and an illegal one. Any order that would lead, directly or indirectly, to atrocity, we were told to disobey.
The old Nazi defense of: 'I was just following orders' was not to be countenanced.
But Colin Powell obeyed his order to lie about the 'threat' of WMD's. He stopped being a soldier at that moment. He became, and remains, a spineless crony. A paper-pushing non-entity who perfectly exemplifies the phrase, coined to described the army of colorless bureaucrats who oiled the machinery of the Holocaust, "the banality of evil."
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,773 posts)I was going to say the same. But I had no idea if the policy continued after I was in. Went in in 1971. That was drilled into us every day. OCS was even more demanding on the subject.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)an unlawful or immoral order, there is absolutely no evidence that any of our soldiers have done that. Witness Gitmo and the various detainee camps elsewhere. I've never been in the military myself, but I suspect that no matter how blatantly immoral or unlawful and order, it would be almost impossible for a soldier to do anything other than carry it out.
"Just following orders" is still an excuse.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)"Just following orders" carries some weight coming from an enlisted man who has no other options. Coming from general or a cabinet member it's bullshit.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)but it's looking like the far stupider "It's not my fault. I was just giving the orders." is a perfectly acceptable excuse.
It's like bizarro world. I'm not sure what would count as an unlawful order anymore, since everything appears to be legal now.
Monk06
(7,675 posts)As a reward he was put in charge of the rape of Panama.
Why is anyone surprised?
Here is a quote from the Larry King interview, "Colin Powell, then a 31-year-old Army major, was charged with investigating the letter, which did not specifically reference Mỹ Lai, since Glen had limited knowledge of the events there. In his report, Powell wrote, "In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between Americal Division[68] soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent." Powell's handling of the assignment was later characterized by some observers as "whitewashing" the atrocities of Mỹ Lai.[67] In May 2004, Powell, then United States Secretary of State, told CNN's Larry King, "I mean, I was in a unit that was responsible for My Lai. I got there after My Lai happened. So, in war, these sorts of horrible things happen every now and again, but they are still to be deplored."[69]
Good luck finding the CBS on camera vid. Scrapped
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Joe Bacon
(5,165 posts)He covered up My Lai.
He committed insubordination against Bill Clinton.
He always put the interests of the Republican Party above the needs of the Country.
He was the second worst person ever as Secretary of State, his successor was even worse than he was.
No matter how long he lives, the blood of thousands of people are on his hands and he will NEVER be able to wash it off.
Hell is waiting for him.
tech3149
(4,452 posts)Think about all those "serious" people that are always in and around Washington who's opinion always seem to be taken as matter of fact. They are not elected and hold no position in government are always listened to as voices of authority and knowledge by those we do elect. It doesn't seem to matter how often or to what degree they are wrong, they are the authority on the subject.
Then there are all those organizations or research and advisory departments within the government that don't change from one administration to the other. All those elected and appointed officials are making decisions based on information that these people provide.
It's not cool to challenge or question what they are telling you!
Did you ever watch the movie "Dave" ? Some off the street, run of the mill accountant comes in to review the budget and find the money to implement a truly worthwhile program and is gobsmacked at the mess he is presented but still finds a way to do it!
There's another aspect of this and it is revealed in a story over at Alternet "How Republicans made Washington stupid" . It shows in pretty good, but not comprehensive manner how all those public service agencies that advise the elected officials with accurate information to make informed decision.
As I always say if you're working on bad or no information the only outcome of any decision you make is going to bad.
Back to Powell, he was a career soldier in a volunteer military. Like any other career you don't challenge the boss unless you're willing to put your ass on the line. He didn't challenge or walk away, that to me discredits him forever. For the rest of his life he will be remembering those decisions even if the public and media relegate it to the dustbin of history.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)hollysmom
(5,946 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)hollysmom
(5,946 posts)since it was his reputation
I was screaming at my TV - now you can see why I had a physical collapse around that time, plus my Mother had just died, I lost friends in 9/11 and My dog died that summer - and I was screaming at the TV every day - stressful times. I take breaks from discussion every week to just be a stupid person and enjoy myself. Then I go back to reading.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)That Powell is a big fact liar if he wants us to believe that he thought he was being lied to. He simply rejected the truth. He didn't want to believe his own two eyes. In other words, to this day, he really hadn't taken full responsibility in his part. He is just as bad as Bush, Cheney and the rest of the war criminals for his role. He knew that the American people would believe anything he said. He had to have known that he was being used because of his reputation.
I still call bullshit. I still assert that he is just a war criminal, along with the Bush/Cheney War Crime Cabal!
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)of the times. I really did get quite sick but it was a combinations of politics and work and not having the emotional support of any one, I remember crying when the TV was celebrating "shack and awe" Others were seeing fireworks, I was seeing dead people for no good reason. Still gets me shaking in anger today.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Well need you around come Nov...
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)I hve been redistricted into a heavy red district by dems keeping the rest of the state blue. all the dems are a shoo in, except our congress man - the dem is not really running for the office, so far I have received on piece of mil from him and it is to do a mail in vote, even though I never have to wait for more than 5 minutes to vote in a building in walking distance from my house (but I tend to drive as part of my chores for the day) - why he would send that I have no idea, but there was nothing inthe letter about him, I have to check again but I could not find a website or facebook about him last week. The republican can't be too crazy and get elected in a blue state - so No, you don't need my vote. Still I will try and stay alive. ha ha
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)More of using your personality everywhere you go including the internet.. Snag a couple of votes!!!
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)Where my sister lives and we can do some good.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)It would help...
tblue37
(65,483 posts)reports, when Powell read the details in the "intelligence report" that he was supposed to feed to the public in his UN speech, he threw the report into the trash and said in disgust, "This is bullshit!"
From The Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jun/02/usa.iraq
Mr Powell conducted a full-dress rehearsal of the speech on the eve of the session at his suite in the Waldorf Astoria, his New York base when he is on UN business, according to the authoritative US News and World Report.
Much of the initial information for Mr Powell's speech to the UN was provided by the Pentagon, where Paul Wolfowitz, the US deputy defence secretary, set up a special unit, the Office of Special Plans, to counter the uncertainty of the CIA's intelligence on Iraq.
Mr Powell's team removed dozens of pages of alleged evidence about Iraq's banned weapons and ties to terrorists from a draft of his speech, US News and World Report says today. At one point, he became so angry at the lack of adequate sourcing to intelligence claims that he declared: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit," according to the magazine.
From opednews.com:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Maddow-MSNBC-Special-on-I-by-Gustav-Wynn-130216-72.html
Col. Wilkerson said his boss sent word he would refuse to sign off on the WMD evidence. But within an hour, George Tenet unveiled "compelling" new evidence tying Iraq to the 9/11 attacks.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)Tenet obviously knows more but is not saying. Who did Tenet get the compelling evidence from?
tech3149
(4,452 posts)I don't freakin care if he apologizes, he was wrong, believed shit he knew was wrong, or just wanted to keep his cushy job, or whatever!
He blew any semblance of credibility saying that shit in front of the UN and we don't even need to look at his past history.
What's that phrase? Oh! You are dead to me!
Cosmocat
(14,568 posts)he sold out, plain and simple.
It is a "discredit" to him, but ...
Unfortunately, he is far from alone.
At that level 90% of these people sell out in some way, shape or form.
In that regard he is no less than most, just that his sell out is pretty obvious.
Not saying that is OK, to be clear, just that in measuring him compared to everyone else in that sphere, he is no more "discredited" than 9 out of 10.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)He is no better than Vader and Palpatine in my book.
sopfrote
(2 posts)Total Information Awareness
NBachers
(17,135 posts)I want this deep-laser-etched on Colin Powell's grave stone.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)It was like watching some dark comedy, only it was happening for real.
GeorgeGist
(25,322 posts)but as a scientist witnessing it in real-time, I knew it was bullshit.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)had played a big role in Powell's promotion to general, as well as doing him other favors.
Powell probably felt a personal debt of gratitude to Bush, Sr. When Bush, Jr. became
president, Powell possibly tried to repay that debt to the father through working for the
son as Secretary of State, when Junior offered him the job.
Maybe he really believed the falsified documents of Saddam Hussein's having had WMD,
and then again maybe he believed them because he WANTED to believe them.
Bush, Jr. is a jinx. Whatever and whomever he touched he turned into a disaster. Powell
had such a great career -- he became a national hero after the Persian Gulf War. If he
had run against Clinton in 1992, he probably would have won the presidency. But then,
he would have had to run against Bush, Sr. during the Republican primaries -- something
he would never allow himself to do.
I can just imagine his present regret at having accepted Junior's offer of the job. How
great must be his regret at not having stayed retired. Junior just made use of him because
of his name. And the result? The national hero has now become a villain. I don't think
he is a villain. In 2008 he voted for and supported Obama. His was a great career
destroyed by that jinx Bush, Jr.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)I liked his books. Hopefully in all the private discussions he has with Pres. O he is loyal to him & not to todays republicans. I think he is a friend to Pres. O.
I think it would do a lot for America and our 'values' if CP would stand-up and remove himself from the todays republican party.
He has stated they are 'dangerous', he did write about the 'mistakes' he stated a lot about 'todays R party' but C. Powell has never gone far enough in public! to make a difference for all Americans.
He is retired!! nothing will happen to him if he could just be fully honest with everyone. FOR ONCE! before he passes away and leaves us with a history that will never tell the whole honest story.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)yet he remains loyal to the GOP scum we now have. IMO he should denounce the new GOP, come clean, and be honest.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)IMO, If they didn't get Palin to run with McCain & instead got CP for VP, they would have won.
Perhaps they asked him to run (I bet they did) and he would have said "NO F'in WAY, 'todays republican party'"
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)there were many people close to bush and cheney. It is safe for them to come out now and tell the truth.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)ruined people who got on the wrong side of them before. I remember Bush ruining the lives of several in federal agencies who didn't go with the corrupt flow.
Even Cheney was sued by several people he had tortured and the Federal courts tossed out the cases!
Only one case was allowed to continue, as I recall because it was a civil case not Federal courts. Don't remember the actual details, some contractor? worked in the middle east and did something the "Cheney Corp war profit business" didn't like.
A call was made by someone and the man & some others, local people?, ended up in one of those infamous torture prisons, yet finally made it home to the USA. Then he sued.
After that nothing was reported. He probably got a huge money settlement and as a condition of settlement $$$ agreed/signed to drop the civil case, never speak about what happened again.
His upward mobility in the military should be credited to Jimmy Carter!
It was Carter's appointment of Clifford Alexander as the 1st African American Secretary of the Army that got Colon's (typo intended) name fast tracked in the first place. Carter asked Alexander for the names of career military personnel who were worthy of promotion and rejected Alexander's first list because it was not diverse enough. Colon's name was on the second list submitted and the rest is history.
While his ultimate rise to Joint Chiefs etc. may have been at the behest of repukes, he owes a lot to Carter and Alexander... honorable men. Colon, however, is not such a man, and many black people (my cousin included) who knew him back in the day as we say, thought very little of him. Their estimation has proven to be true.
He's a liar and a sellout Uncle Tom. He has blood on his hands and a soul that should be doomed.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)does he sleep at night?
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)I liked his books, have a lot of respect for him the way he said who he would vote and why. The way he stood up and pointed out how Romney's crowd was dangerous for America.
I am disappointed that he never would go all out against what really happened with the bush wars. What is the worse that could happen to him? He is not liked at all by todays Republicans or most Ds.
Now would be a very good time before America gets into another world mess, even worse than what the bushgang did to us.
Cosmocat
(14,568 posts)But, I tend to agree with your overall analysis mostly.
He has tried to make up for it over time, but, he had the misfortune of having his greatest personal challenge in that moment be something so monumental ...
MOST of these clowns sell out ...
Jr. did not destroy him, he chose to do what he did, but again, his sell out just happens to be completely visible and attached to such a horrible thing.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)lives, costs and reputation to the US. Many people believed in him as he had a lot of credibility. If, he had said HELL NO, things might be far different today. I have no respect for the man. They used him as a prop and he went along willingly.
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)Congress. Yes, bush, Cheney, and others implemented their scheme, but no one, especially the corporate media questioned it.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)sendero
(28,552 posts).... making all sorts of claims I knew were false and was pretty sure he knew were false left me astounded when the segment was over with no rebuttal, no counterpoint, just a platform to spew bullshit.
That day I quit sending money to NPR after 17 years of doing so. And I haven't since, and they have gotten even worse.
ALL of the MSM is corrupt, including the vaunted "liberal" NPR.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)to listen, but anymore I just consider them on the propaganda heap.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)yes he had a lot of credibility, especially back then during the bushcheney takeover years. CP should have stood-up and walked away from that mess. But what General ever has?
I think the information he was provided was a lot of the same fake stuff Americans were fed.
Won't be the last time high-up Admin. are 'snookered' and lied to by other Gov. Leadership. I bet President Obama has been lied to quite a bit!
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)EEO
(1,620 posts)It is a co-conspirator.
Hekate
(90,773 posts)At one time Colin Powell was considered a viable possible candidate for a presidential run, but that evaporated when he carried water for the Bush/Cheney cabal.
Even more interesting to me was the reputation he already had among the Vietnam War vets I got to know through the VFP: they were bitterly convinced he had carried out orders to cover up the My Lai Massacre. That was something I had never heard before.
Once a good soldier, always a good soldier I guess.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)Colin Powell, then a 31-year-old Army major, was charged with investigating the letter, which did not specifically reference Mỹ Lai, since Glen had limited knowledge of the events there. In his report, Powell wrote, "In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between Americal Division[68] soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent." Powell's handling of the assignment was later characterized by some observers as "whitewashing" the atrocities of Mỹ Lai.[67] In May 2004, Powell, then United States Secretary of State, told CNN's Larry King, "I mean, I was in a unit that was responsible for My Lai. I got there after My Lai happened. So, in war, these sorts of horrible things happen every now and again, but they are still to be deplored."[69]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)I was working in mapping at the time, and knew when he said an aerial map of Iraq showed where weapons of mass destruction where housed was utter bullshit. It made me sad and angry. He's a player, and has a lot to answer for. Cheney and Bush didn't do this shit alone. They had a lot of help from people who covered for them and helped them destroy Iraq (the administration, the NY Times, the Corporate Media), and people who should have known better (Congress). Those people are just as culpable. It's really horrible being aware that people are being allowed to perpetrate an atrocity, then trying and failing to prevent it. I spit in the faces of anyone who tries to blame President Obama for the fallout from trying to make this right again.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)did vote for Obama -- both in 2008 and 2012.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Research there was several good liars, George Tenet, lots from Dick Cheney, Wolfy and George W. They "wanted" to get in and make their hits before the temperature got really hot. They even brought in Tony Blair for reinforcement to give a speech. Powell was probably the only person connected with the Bush administration who had enough creditability to give the convincing speech. Also if this been later the official report from the inspectors would have been final and it would have shot the administration in the foot. I thought I had heard or read where Powell regretted his speech, maybe I did not get the correct information.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)we have always had just snippets
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)Who follows orders? I think its just that simple
Unca Adverse
(29 posts)Because this Dubya flunky and sycophantic rightist general was too cowardly to dissent!
While on his second Vietnam tour of duty the 31-year-old Army major Colin Luther Powell was assigned to investigate
the My Lai massacre where more than 300 civilians were murdered by U.S. Army Forces . . .
He asserted, "Relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent."