where does a conservative VP candidate think that denying and lying about facts that are all easily

[beachbum bob]

to prove, falls under his own moral code of being a christian who is to abide by the 10 commandments? Last time I looked, lying is still on the list of the 10 commandments. Pence has no problem, Trump has no problem and hypocritical christian conservatives have no problem....you can't wear your faith on your sleeve and demand that the rest of america must bow to it, if you, yourself is a lying unchristian POS. Conservatives may lap up the hypocrisy but the rest of america will not.

Conservatives do not get it about faith and freedom.....using govt to force people to obey "their" religious standards is no different from the radical muslims of ISIS or Al-Qaeda

[AgadorSparticus]

1. One of the problems I see with Pence is that he walks a fine line

Between 2 kinds of crazy. In the one hand, he is tea party batshit crazy. On the other hand, he is Trump batshit crazy. He is taking a page out of Trump's book with the audacious lies. The problem with the latter is that he is not Trump. When Trump does it, he almost gets a pass for it because "oh well, that's just Trump. Trump being trump". When pence does it, it looks ridiculous.

Those evangelical Christians are anything but Christians.

[Hortensis]

12. Vox said Pence did a very good job of setting himself up for 2020.

After acknowledging all Pence's lies and denials, this huge but:

Pence had a different task from trying to help his current ticket. If and when Trump loses the general election, Pence immediately becomes a major candidate for the 2020 GOP nomination. He’s a national figure with huge name recognition and he hasn’t earned the kind of intra-party enemies of a Marco Rubio or a Ted Cruz. Moreover, he has a personal connection to Trump voters and the potential to win them over.

If you view the debate from the vantage point of a Republican donor or party elite, weighing how the party is going to recover after the disaster that is Donald Trump, Pence did exceptionally well. He delivered exactly the kind of performance a donor like that would be searching for. He hit Trumpian themes on immigration and national security, and showed unerring loyalty to the ticket. He can win over the voters who denied GOP elites the nomination this year.

But he also, when it counted, showed his traditional conservative bona fides. Trump’s rhetoric on Russia terrifies neoconservatives — but Pence’s Putin-bashing wouldn’t feel out of the place in the Weekly Standard.

The conclusion that a donor like that would draw from the debate is that Pence has all the advantages of a Marco Rubio elite favorite type (the commitment to party doctrine, the polish and panache in public speaking, message discipline) and none of the downsides (immigration heresies, residual anger from the 2016 primaries). He can be controlled and kept to the platform. But unlike the rest of the field, Trump supporters won’t view him as inherently illegitimate and suspect.

I agree entirely with your view of him, but the debate reminded me of something I'd forgotten. His experience as a radio host. He can portray himself sensibly and winningly when he needs to. It got him elected governor of Indiana. It's what he did after he got the power that angered those he'd misrepresented himself to.

[AgadorSparticus]

13. That is an interesting take. I can see that...as long as Trump doesn't stomp on it.

And I don't see Trump forgiving and letting go of the betrayal of Tuesday night. If Trump is not in, I don't think it will be easy for the GOP to capture Trump's cult.

[Hortensis]

14. I think most of Trump's cult is going to abandon a loser.

There is that possibility that Trump could remain a player by becoming a performer on a new network, or at least a new show, feeding them raw Trump steaks. But the conservatives Pence would appeal to are mostly the larger, more mainstream set.

Vox's take on Kaine:

... He had very clearly prepared for a debate where he would force Pence to repeatedly answer for the sins of Donald Trump. That was a decent enough theory, but Pence showed very early on that he had no interest in defending or even really acknowledging Trump’s failings. ...

Again, it’s important not to overstate the stakes for Kaine here. (Me: Reportedly not a big deal for either Hillary's campaign or for a presidential run that is not in Kaine's future). A poor VP debate performance isn’t the end of the world. But his failure to adapt to Pence’s strategy of just flat-out lying denied him and Clinton a clear win.

This analysis completely failed to take into account, however, the fact that Kaine succeeded in directing much of the substance of the night. Time reported that the most discussed things on social media during and right after were Putin and nuclear arms -- Kaine hit both of those over and over, to obviously good effect.

[AgadorSparticus]

16. You know why I don't think they will abandon a loser?

Because of what David Duke said: he is why I am here. I think they will support him no matter what because racists have never had anyone hold their hands and take them mainstream like this.

And you KNOW he will get his own political show. Hate to say it, but he will be a ratings phenom.

[Hortensis]

27. Oh, excellent points, both of them. Agree.

They are thrilled and will fight not to be kicked into the shadows again.

"And you KNOW he will get his own political show. Hate to say it, but he will be a ratings phenom." It's really hard to imagine it could be any other way. Such a natural for him. A prison sentence could interfere, but probably sadly unlikely.

My question is how much of the mainstream right would leave Fox's regular offerings to tune in to an overtly racist show or network. Traditional conservatives, and a lot of Christian and economic ones, may be benignly racist, as in wistful for imaginary old times, and worried about loss of power by a white majority, but aren't the malignant type and don't approve of it.

I'm feeling kind of OD'd on living in interesting times, like the supposed ancient Chinese curse. I could use a touch of Ozzie and Harriet placidity myself. Just for a break.

[DetlefK]

2. Conservatives/Evangelicals don't care about Christianity, only about their power in society.

"Oh, sure, let's support the lying adulterer who treats poor people like crap. Because that's what Jesus would do."

They don't give a shit about what the Bible says.

All they care about is their cultural domination over the rest of society. The US is slowly moving away from religion because people are losing interest in it. The Evangelicals see this and panic: "Oh my god! We will soon be a minority! And as a minority we will be treated like we treat minorities nowadays because that's the proper way to treat minorities!"

And that's why they support Trump, despite him being the anathema to everything they believe in. The Christian extremists are making a deal with the devil in order to cling to power.

[The Genealogist]

3. "All they care about is their cultural domination over the rest of society." This.

+1000.

Evangelicals would prefer a theocracy, with them at the top of the pecking order. Imagining the purity tests they would come up with, if placed in the highest offices, gives me the chills.

[lastlib]

8. They want us all down on our knees......

in the church of their choice.

And they won't stop until they get it.

[HAB911]

11. All Supremacists

want dominion over others

[treestar]

26. This!!!!!

Exactly. It is about their political dominance and cultural dominance. "Christian" means "white" to many of them. Many of them might not even believe in God. They certainly are too full of hate to truly be following the New Testament. There are some genuine Christians, but you can bet they are liberals.

[maxrandb]

4. They learn that very early from

Faux News and the hundreds of "cookie-cutter" Hate AM Radio stations sprinkled all over the country.

The tactic is particularly strong in Pence who was vomited upon this country by talk radio.

It's only going to get worse when we have Trump TV

[Fast Walker 52]

5. exactly! It seems to me that Mike Pence sold his soul to the devil

how many times did lie and deny facts last night? Too many to count.

[uponit7771]

6. YES !! I started a thread about the pathology of people who do this !!!

[handmade34]

7. Pence is a very comfortable liar

and wants to dictate his "Christian" values to us

using govt to force people to obey "their" religious standards is no different from the radical muslims of ISIS or Al-Qaeda

[C_U_L8R]

20. Too comfortable for comfort

Pence lied so much and so big in his kindly aw-shucks way.
He has no conscience. At least with Trump, you know what you're
getting and it's obvious when he's bullshitting (like all the time).
I'd worry more about a slippery snake in the grass like Pence who
wins over low information voters (and apparently, Chris Matthews)
by making the most hateful policies sound reasonable. Remember
when George Bush did that to us? Boy did we pay heavily.

[Frank Cannon]

9. They cherry-pick The Bible on every conceivable subject.

I doubt there's a single fundie nut who's even read the fucking thing. These "Christians" act like the first four books of their New Testament never existed.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

23. When do we start?

[Ligyron]

10. This whole business of religion in the debate to begin with makes me ill.

But of course they have to do it.

Pence and Kaine have to display their X-ian bona fides just like everyone else who wants to be in politics. Sometimes pols try to "out Christian" one another in an obvious pandering to the superstitious majority of people we share our country with.

I'm waiting for the day when someone will proudly declare themselves to an atheist and still win an election in this country. I'll probably never live that long but it will happen.

Some bright sunny day.

In the mean time: - Smile, Jesus Loves You!!

[sarge43]

15. "....proudly declare themselves to an atheist..."

I'd settle for anyone saying, "My spiritual beliefs are none of your business. If my public record and personal behavior aren't good enough for you, then don't vote for me. Oh yeah, Article 6, section 3, US Constitution."

[Ligyron]

17. That wouldn't be a bad start.

I think I remember there being an actual atheist in Congress ... somewhere.

[sarge43]

18. The other thing

If we demand a politician detail his religious/spiritual beliefs, dimes to donuts we'll be lied to by some. The proof is in the walk, not the talk.

[Orsino]

19. When Colbert coined the term truthiness, he was looking back at the Bush Administration...

...not dreaming of the next evolution. He might not have foreseen that future politicians would seriously go beyond denying truth in favor of the gut to denying both in favor of stupid fantasies.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

21. Pence is a Dominionist, which is the American christian branch of the Taliban

Pence says he is "christian first, conservative second, Republican third". USA citizen ranks somewhat lower than those. His actions make it clear that he is a Dominionist christian.

Conservatives do not get it about faith and freedom.....using govt to force people to obey "their" religious standards is no different from the radical muslims of ISIS or Al-Qaeda

[Madam45for2923]

24. Yes he wants a Christian Saudi Arabia here in the USA

[BainsBane]

22. I had that same thought about his non-stop lying.

[treestar]

25. very insightful post

the blabbing media heads would never think of this.

It is amazing how these two old white men think of themselves as being in authority so strongly without realizing how easy it is in modern times to find the old tape where they said what they now deny saying.

[Vogon_Glory]

28. Because Denying And Lying From The Pulpit Has Become Commonplace On Religious Radio

Why do right-wing politicians think that denying and lying about facts that are all too easy to disprove is OK? Because lying about matters secular has come to be seen acceptable among religious broadcasters and more than a few Fundamentalist/Evangelical church pastors. During my lifetime I have seen right-wing religious talk show hosts and more than a few church pastors lie through their teeth about individuals, social trends, and political developments they don't like. There are seldom any real consequences, at least when they get busted for it. Not only do they keep their jobs, but often they're commended for "standing up" to "liberals" and "big government."

In fact, such lying has become a tool for street preachers, pamphleteers, and internet hucksters. The little bagatelles like the 10 Commandments and numerous passages in the OT railing against liars and lying are ignored for what these religious charlatans see as "spreading the good word," "protecting family values," or "defending the faith."

Mike Pence comes from such a background.

When I was a kid, I truly believed that Christians were upright, moral, and TRUTHFUL. With the rise of the Religious Right and the spread of widespread lying as a political and evangelizing tool, I fear that it won't be long before "Christian" becomes synonymous with "habitual, shameless liar."