As a feminist and a liberal I find the slut shaming of Melania Trump to be pretty despicable.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

She may have posed nude, she made have been an escort, but what of it? sometimes the most important asset women have are their looks and their bodies, and we all do what we can to maximize our assets. Being pro-choice has never been to me just about healthcare, I am pro-choice about what women do with their bodies.

Melania is not responsible for her husband's terrible personality and policy positions and slut shaming her reinforces a lot of negative societal values that are un-feminist and un-egalitarian in nature.

[Trust Buster]

1. I agree. We give up the high ground doing that. A poster yesterday asked how horrible it was that

Roger Stone was saying that Chelsea had 4 facial surgeries to make her look like her father because he wasn't her biological father. I agreed with him but pointed out that he was just as wrong attacking Melsnia Trump.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. they did it first, works in elementary school. after that point we are responsible for our own moral

decisions.

[Submariner]

79. It is different this time LLP

This year, this summer, this election makes a huge difference.

At any other time in the past almost 70 years I would agree with you 100%, but we are now dealing with a racist sexist psychopath who is one of the many republican yellow-bellied draft dodging cowards of my generation. This guy is dangerous and cannot be allowed to get his pathetic hands on the nation's nuclear launch codes.

If Trump got in that could be the beginning of a race war like we have never experienced in the modern age. The country's cities will go up in flames with African Americans and Hispanics catching a lot of lead from Trumps racist white power followers. He would soon lead us in conflict internationally, and I don't even like to think about how Russia and/or China would react.

So if I have to hold my nose because it stinks to slut shame his gold digger wife for being a hooker back in the 90s, then so be it if that is what it takes to stave off a nuclear winter. No one wants escort trash as the FLOTUS. I did not spend the last 40 years busting my ass trying to implement ecological controls to help preserve what little is left of our environment, just so some cowardly blowhard can come along and blow it all up.

I understand and sympathize with your concern, but the preservation of the planet could be at stake this election. This is not an election for a harmless House Rep or Senator, this is for the person who could push the button, and Trump is just too damn unstable to take that chance.

Sorry, but reality strikes and I have to swallow my pride and even demean myself a bit to help defeat this orange animal.

[sarae]

2. I agree 100%.

The only things I have a problem with are the things she's done to enable her racist husband.

[bluedye33139]

4. I was pondering this this morning as I drove to work

On the one hand, Trump's campaign literally went after Ted Cruz's wife with accusations that she was a prostitute, which opens the door to this subject and introduces it into the national discourse. Then, when Trump's household comes into the discussion, suddenly everyone adopts mature and appropriate levels of decency. There is something unfair about a politician who attacks women for their sex worker history when there appears to be a sex worker living in his own home.

But it is wrong to attack people based upon slurs and smears like this. It's hard to resist the temptation, but I agree that attacking anyone because of unproven allegations of sex work is wrong.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. even if the allegations are proven, you either support women making decisions

about their bodies or you don't. if it was proven that she had an abortion, it would still be no reason to attack her for it.

'they did it first' is not an ethical justification for sexist attacks.

[mythology]

44. Except prostitution doesn't exist in a vacuum

Along with prostitution comes human trafficking (Germany saw a notable increase in human trafficking after legalizing prostitution for example) and there is a higher level of violence (sexual and phyiscal) against prostitutes than the general population.

The argument that women should be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies isn't persuasive to me as it's one of the arguments against things like a minimum wage or OSHA. We hold all the time that people can't agree to do things with their body because it violates societal morals.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. No, minimum wages and OSHA are regulations on labor, not outlawing the work itself. Or the workers.

I'll fall on the side of, if everyone is a consenting adult, then the consenting adults should be able to make their own decisions. In situations where coercion, etc are involved, throw the book at the people responsible.

And I have to believe that legalization and regulation are better at controlling the bad aspects of a market than leaving it to the unregulated criminal one.

[kcr]

61. I don't think it's right to shame anyone

but I second what mythology said. For me also, it's the notion that woman's primary value is their looks. This exists in a way that it simply doesn't for men. I don't believe that women should be shamed for participating in anything that furthers this, but it seems to me that often simply pointing this out gets labeled as shaming. I'm not saying you're doing this because I don't think you are, but it definitely puts people in their corners and they get entrenched.

Trump, with his trading in his trophy model wives for newer, younger model trophy wives is a disgusting symbol of objectification to begin with. That he seems to parade her around and value her for nothing but her looks is more of the same. IMO, it's nothing to praise. To me, it doesn't matter if it's something she chose. It's not Melania the individual as a person that I want to hurt and shame. It's more Trump himself and how he clearly views women that's at issue.

[treestar]

88. yes, the "choice" of doing these things

only exists because of sexism. Maybe there are a few men who can do it, too, but not like it is historically with women. It's not shaming her for doing it but the problem is that there aren't better opportunities for women and that this old fashioned sexist one is still "available."

[Warren DeMontague]

91. I love it when people put scare quotes around "choice"

it's a favorite tacitc of authoritarians- im not anti-choice, because i have defined anyone who makes a choice i find morally objectionable as incapable of making that choice.

[kcr]

93. I love it when people label an opinion as authoritarian

simply because they disagree with it. Is there nothing you're opposed to? There must be something. And I'm sure that whatever that is, that's not an authoritarian position, of course. That's' not a choice, because that's different. It's wrong because that's your opinion.

[Warren DeMontague]

119. There are things I'm opposed to, but I'm not interested in running other peoples' lives for them.

And I'm reasonably certain there are people who make decisions or choose to do things that I wouldn't.

If people are consenting adults, they should be able to make their own decisions about their lives and their bodies, that's the OP's position and it's mine, too. Why is that so hard to grok?

[treestar]

100. The authoritarianism was in the patriarchy

wherein women could wind up with no other way to survive because they didn't have a proper husband like they were supposed to! This is not a good "choice" at all! It was never meant to be a choice for women, it was for the convenience of men. Believe there are women who really want to make this choice? Like there are girls who think they want to be a hooker when they grow up? Or any girl is ever encouraged to consider this as a choice?

Yeah there are mothers saying to their daughters: "Let's see, should you go to college? You'd make more money as a prostitute, so you've got to consider that, dear. That's one of your choices."

No, they end up there due to desperation or drugs or what have you. Or in more Puritan times, because they'd made the mistake of some sexual choice for themselves that society disapproved of and thus put them on the outside. It's tone deaf to think there is any woman who just wants that job.

[Warren DeMontague]

120. A couple things. One, it's fairly common for people to take jobs not because they want terribly to

do the job, but because they want the money.

Two, this thread is about Melania Trump. Now I'm not into tossing around unfounded accusations or rumors about people without evidence, I don't think it's cool- but in the context of the topic at hand, I would say it does not appear that Melania Trump has led a life of extreme privation and drug-driven desperation, whatever choices she was making 20 years ago or whatnot. She seems to have done alright, even before the Donald.

If societal disapproval is a problem, well, lets argue against that. Lets stop shaming people for their sexual choices, again assuming everyone is a consenting adult, and include sex work in that. Back in the days of Debbie Does Dallas, we were assured that no person- no woman, certainly- would willingly have sex in front of a camera where others could later watch. And yet, here we are some 40 years later, and believe it or not there ARE people who are exhibitionists, even, who WANT people to watch them doing it. For free, even. Such things exist.

One thing that changed, in that time, is that more people decided that having sex in front of a camera wasn't that big of a deal.

Similarly, it is not beyond the realm of conception in my mind to think that on a planet of 4.7 Billion people, there may be some who would choose to have sex for money, certainly as opposed to gutting fish on a boat in Alaska or maybe working as an accountant or sportscaster or something.

My ideal is a world where everyone can pursue their own dreams and be paid a fair and livable wage to do so, but if some people choose to do a job I personally find morally objectionable, c'est la vie.

[treestar]

121. being a prostitute is not a sexual choice

it is not her sex life at all! It's not like having sex with someone you want to have sex with. Without the money, she would not do it. It's pretty sad if men who use them want to convince themselves she really wants to do it with them. If that were the case they would not have to pay.

Modeling may be a lot better, but that's got a societal function - other women want to see the clothes of the latest designer or whatever. Escorting might not be as bad but how boring it is to spend time with someone you are not really interested in? No wonder they want money before they will do that.

I seriously doubt that among the billions of people there is anyone emotionally healthy who wants to do that job and wouldn't prefer gutting fish. The reasons I described are more likely. It's just like saying women "want" and "choose" the lower paying job - we are always being told it is what we want and women too are of various levels of intelligence and some can be convinced. But to say any woman "wants" to be a hooker is absurd. It's just a male dream (of some).

Imagine having sex with a woman you don't really want and would only have sex with her because you got paid for it. This would be an old and unattractive woman, the kind you wouldn't want. (I know men would say they are fine with that and would love it, so that it why I am emphasizing you get nothing out of it sexually, just money).

[Warren DeMontague]

122. Okay, then- honest question time?

Do you suppose Melania would be having sex with The Donald on a regular basis if he was a Barista at Starbucks living in studio apartment with $300.00 in a Stagecoach Checking account at Wells Fargo to his name?

[treestar]

129. No she would not

[Warren DeMontague]

137. So you don't think she'd really rather be gutting fish on a boat in Alaska, then?

your post: "Imagine having sex with a woman you don't really want and would only have sex with her because you got paid for it. This would be an old and unattractive woman, the kind you wouldn't want"

[ohheckyeah]

135. Of course she would - she looooves him.

Orange is in.

Sarcasm intended

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. Your past is fair game in a national election.

They should know this going in. If there are any embarrassing events in your past you ought to be smart enough to either deal with it or stay out.

That woman seems to think that the rules don't apply to her, she cribs the biggest speech in her life, has a sketchy immigration record and was a nude model and possibly an escort. She thought that nobody would be smart enough to notice.
She is a dunce I have no pity for that woman.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. being sexist is apparantly always fair game, but should not be.

Reinforcing sexism in culture is not a game.

[The_Casual_Observer]

18. Nobody cared one way or the other about what she did before the

Trumps got involved in the election.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. i am not sure what your argument is, mine is that slut shaming is always bad

regardless of whether it is happening to someone you love or someone you hate.

[LanternWaste]

20. A most presentable rationalization...

"Your past is fair game in a national election..."

Unless speaking of the candidate and the candidate's policies, I read that simply as a rather presentable rationalization to justify speaking with both irrelevance and vulgarity, regardless of the (again, irrelevant) allegations of what she herself may have thought or done.

Or course, as it's a standard practice in politics, our need to justify our own engagement in the same process is defended to the point of absurdity.

[obamanut2012]

95. Nope, gendered slurs and language are always wrong

Call her a liar and a plagiarist.

[m-lekktor]

8. I completely agree. nt

[NWCorona]

9. I agree but seeing how Jane Sanders was treated I'm not surprised.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. Jane Sanders was slut shamed? I don't remember that.

on the other hand I do remember people blaming Hillary for her husbands affairs. several on DU.

[NWCorona]

12. Not slut shamed but her appearance was heavily bagged on.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. i didn't see it, but i def believe it happened.

[NCTraveler]

15. I missed that about Jane. Not surprised though.

Amazing what Clinton has endured for decades. Me personally as well. So sad.

[Demsrule86]

62. I never saw Jane Sanders treated badly. nt

[NWCorona]

63. Where were you during the primaries lol

[JudyM]

133. Right!?

[bettyellen]

73. Most of it was about her career in education failing...

Didn't see anything about her looks or morals but am sure some fools went there.

[NWCorona]

134. While I thought that some of the talk about Jane being terrible at her job and bring up the college

issues crossed into the overly mean. I do recognize that that it was the PRIMARIES and it's almost like war. Jane was an advocate for Bernie and that made her fair game.
I myself haven't been too kind to Bill Clinton.

There's some likes that shouldn't be crossed tho.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511682634
There was another thread talking about the Facebook posts in regards to Jane attacks.

I'm also not casting a wide net in saying this view is held by most on the left.

[bettyellen]

136. yeah, some assholes will always go there with the looks thing. Always thought they helped Warren too

because she's got that quite a bit more charisma than Hillary. I get pissed at the Clinton stuff because she is not he- and it's how many years ago? People do evolve! The 90s were not ready for someone as liberal as HRC, she had to do her best given the times. I think in many ways the world has caught up to her. She ain;t perfect, but will seat amazing judges and do so much for many.

[Avalux]

11. Is she a person of integrity?

I would say no. She did that to herself at the GOP convention, when she stood at that podium and Michelle Obama's works came out of her mouth. A speech she was giving about her HUSBAND.

Either she made a stupid error by assuming whomever wrote that speech knew what they were doing, or she knew they were Michelle's words and did it anyway.

I have no respect for Melania because of that. Not because she may have posed nude or been an escort.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. I think one can legitimately criticize the plagiarism without supporting sexism

[NCTraveler]

16. I'm not sure what you lack of respect for her has to do with the topic. At all. nt.

[MoonRiver]

17. Exactly. My dislike of Melania is far deeper than her skin, or her previous occupations.

She put herself out there as a supporter of Rump, and we should be free to criticize. BUT, I have no interest in whether she was an escort, or not. That is much ado about nothing.

[Hortensis]

21. I agree, Lioness.

Calling her on her own lies to the public--in a decent manner--is legitimate, but "slut shaming" degrades all those indulging to the level of the kind of knuckle-draggers they say they deplore.

And, of course, we all know Melania's not only way out of her league right now but in a position she never expected or asked to be. Not exactly a Palin.

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

22. As a feminist and a liberal I make the distinction between namecalling and criticizing actions and

behavior..... - its YOU who has used the S word in this conversation, no one else.

This woman chose, adn continues to choose, to align herself not only with this man on a personal level but also as a co-partner in his candidacy. She is not "responsible" for her husband, OK, but she sure as heck is responsible for what she does, says, and how she chooses to spend her time. For a "feminist," you sure have a bit of learned helplessness going on in your thought processes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. Slut shaming is a phrase that is commonly used to criticize people who shame women

based on sex and sexuality. My using it does not make me complicit in the slut shaming of Melania.

As someone who is ABD in a psychology degree, it seems that you don't understand what learned helplessness means.

[True Dough]

30. Commonly used term but it deserves a rethink

It implies the person in question is a "slut" every time it is used, whether intended or not. I think the point of your thread is valid, but the repetition of "slut shaming" isn't helpful.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. Or it implies that there is nothing wrong with being a slut

Much like queer politics implies there is nothing wrong with being queer

[True Dough]

37. A person can have as many sexual partners as they choose

but labeling a person as a "slut" is pejorative, offensive. It's not the act I'm arguing against, it's the term. Queer has become accepted by many, although some prefer gay. "Slut" is nowhere near the status of either.

[DLevine]

39. There is no such thing as a being a "slut".

The word itself can only be used as a slur, as it implies there is something inherently wrong with a person who has sex with multiple partners.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. i agree with you but a lot of groups have taken back words that were used to insult them

and feminists are not different in that regard

[treestar]

90. It was never used to shame prostitutes or models

It was used against women who liked sex and tried to seek it out on terms similar to men.

[KittyWampus]

105. It's a term used by SOME feminists/liberals to attack anyone who questions

Certain societal and individual behavior.

BTW, there is a correlation between sexual abuse and prostitution. Many females who engage in sex work have issues. So while I don't condemn sex workers, I don't assume they have made life choices from a financially secure and psychologically healthy position.

As I said below, it's mostly about the hypocrisy. Trump's and the Far Right.

Just as it is when a Far Right Fundie politician is outed for being gay.

[MyNameGoesHere]

23. Plagerism, lying about degrees not earned, possible visa violations

are my concerns. That she has a co-conspirator and husband running for the presidency really bothers me. Who she strips for or has sex with is none of my business.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. i think that is perfectly fair criticism.

[Koinos]

26. The problem is that her visa problems may be inextricably linked to her "job history."

Further, her possible visa problems directly undermine and reveal the hypocrisy of Trump's hateful attitude toward immigrants.

Immigration is what binds Donald's political and Melania's personal problems together.

Anyone close to Trump ends up being both a victim and an accessory. That can't be helped.

[piechartking]

27. I understand your point, but I resent

that we, the "godless liberals" are always trying to stay on the moral high ground (and it has cost us some elections!!!!), while "family values" conservatives go out and fight dirty and win elections.

It may be Machiavellian, but in campaigns you use what will get you elected. Period. A wise ruler knows when it is appropriate to deal evil measures and when to mete out "good" measures.

I want to win this election because we're better for governing the country than Republicans. If dirt on Melania suppresses the Evangelical vote - use it, so be it.

Just my two cents.

[hamsterjill]

42. I, in turn, understand YOUR point.

I see your point, and I tend to agree.

I thought that Obama was far too "nice" during the first term when he had a Congressional majority to work with. When he could have rammed through legislation, I believe that he genuinely tried to reach across the aisle, show good faith, and that gesture was met with vile hatred. Republicans pulled out all stops to make him look bad and to show that they were not going to budge an inch.

I think the fact that Obama didn't force through more legislation during that time period cost Democrats some advances, and I don't think we can be the party who plays "nice" when we are faced with an opponent who plays "dirty". It's a fine line to walk, but we've got to counter their lies, etc. and sometimes that means getting down in the gutter with the Republicans.

As a feminist myself, I confess to having an issue with another woman who uses her "assets" (and we know what I'm referring to here) to get ahead. I realize that it is Melania's right to do that, but it's my right to not like her doing it, as well. I've refrained from slut shaming of her, but that doesn't mean that I condone her behavior.

And that is just MY two cents. Thanks for your post.

[Il_Coniglietto]

50. It's not about "moral high ground"

so much as it's about what kind of world we want to live in.

When we make fun of a woman because of nude photographs she took when she was younger (irrespective of who she is, what she believes, who she's married to, etc.) we help shame all women who have done similarly. These criticisms are no longer based on that woman supporting and condoning a demagogue like Trump, they are now based on something that attacks many women for harmless behavior. Plus none of this happens in a vacuum. There is no winning in a society that shows contempt both for women who are "slutty" (like Melania) and for women who are "cold/prudish" (like Hillary).

I feel the same way regarding those naked Donald statues as well. Who are we really attacking with those? Because we laugh at the conventionally unattractive body and it's no longer about the horrorshow that is Donald Trump's beliefs. It's about us feeling good that someone else is made to feel small (literally). And what are people who resemble that statue made to think? They may be against everything Trump stands for, but now they might feel put down as well. That should be the very OPPOSITE of what we stand for as Democrats.

I get that some attack the hypocrisy of the Trump family going after religious voters while behaving in ways those same voters would find abhorrent. But there is a fine line there and I've seen many cross it.

This isn't directed at you, piechartking, FYI Just a general sentiment that's bothered me and has gone mostly ignored because it goes against someone we oppose.

[sarae]

55. Well said

I agree with you about the statues - it's not Donald Trump's feelings I'm concerned about (I couldn't give a shit about that), it's the people who resemble him who would feel horrible seeing everyone ridicule their body type.

As much as I get a sick satisfaction out of anything that takes Trump's ego down a few notches , I don't want an innocent person to feel similarly ridiculed. We have enough impossible aesthetic standards as it is.

I'd be really upset if someone did a corresponding naked statue of Hillary.

[Il_Coniglietto]

71. Agreed!

What their bodies look like or what they've done with them is completely irrelevant to this election, and attacking someone on those grounds is right out of Trump's playbook.

There is so much that both Trumps can be called out for--things they've said and done during this month alone. That is what makes them terrible people.

And hitting them there is what will win us this election.

[kimbutgar]

28. After the attacks on Michelle Obama for the last 8 years and the attacks on Hillary during Bill's

Presidency. I struggle to find sympathy for Melania. That said, attacks on wives and children under 18 for any candidate should be off limits.

[Old and In the Way]

78. Me, friggen too.

When your entire campaign is based on immigration, you need to defend your wife and her lies to get status in the USA. Either Trump is a liar or a rascist, his choice.

[skepticscott]

103. Attacks...perhaps, but as far as other criticism and scrutiny, no

When a candidate parades their devoted wife and well-groomed kids out on the stage at a rally, they are trying to sell the message "Look at me..I'm a great husband and family man, so I will make a great president, too". Once they open that door, any dirt on the wife and kids that would undermine that message is fair game.

We're talking about the most powerful office in the world. No one has the right to tell me what I'm not allowed to know or use in making my voting decision. If a candidate doesn't want to subject his family to that kind of scrutiny, he should leave them out of his campaign completely, or else look for a different job.

[get the red out]

29. I agree

There is no need of that.

[ismnotwasm]

31. Yeah I knew it was going to happen--and very saddened to see it

Not to mention it's low hanging fruit--all women get special focus on sexuality, and in a way that men do not, when a woman chooses to exploit her body--it does NOT mean her sexuality or its expressions are "fair game"

What has she done that will make her a great First Lady? What causes does she support? What is her educational background? Same as any other presidential spouse. Her being a model simply means she worked in that field, modeling is inherently--institutionally sexist. She didn't create that. She lived it, as thousands of women do.

As First Lady, Michelle Obama set a standard so high, I doubt will see her like again, but if Hillary is elected, the political gender narrative will have to start changing a bit. Thank God--

[beastie boy]

32. Oh c'mon, can't we shame her just a little bit?

Not for posing nude or making a living, of course, this is certainly despicable, not to mention capricious. I don't recall Carla Bruni being slut shamed as the First Lady of France, but that might have more to do with America's deep-seated puritan prejudices than address a woman's dominion over her body.

Rather, I want to soul-shame Melania. She is certainly responsible for publicly praising Trump's terrible personality. She is certainly responsible for stealing someone's intellectual property. Even some of the choices she makes in using her body is , IMO, subject to criticism. For instance, she is certainly responsible for her very conscious decision to use her body as a trophy belonging to a man with terrible personality, and it doesn't seem like a very good choice.

[uppityperson]

33. I will not slut shame her but will point out Trump's hypocrisy

[GoCubsGo]

56. Not just Trump's hypocrisy, but the entire GOP's.

The problem is not the current Mrs. Trump posing nude or being a former escort. The problem is that the finger-wagging moralists that make up the current GOP look the other way, while condemning the same behaviors in anyone who doesn't belong to their club. Imagine their outrage if it was Michelle Obama, or Tim Kaine's wife, or Bernie Sanders' wife who did all of that. But, complete silence when it comes to Mrs. Trump. They had conniptions when Michelle was photographed in a sleeveless dress, claiming that it was unbecoming of the FLOTUS to bare her arms like that. Melanoma Trump posing nude? No big deal. A fuzzy video that suggests that maybe Malia Obama took a toke from a doobie? OUTRAGE!!!!!! The Bush twins are told to leave the country by the government of Paraguay for being drunk and disorderly? Nothing to see here. Move along. IOKIYAAR.

[CajunBlazer]

68. ^^^^ THIS!!!!

Melania posing nude is not a problem for me, though if she were to become first lady I can can imagine what would be going through the minds of teen aged boys every time she appeared in public.

However, since when the of "escort" is used, an image of a high priced prostitute often comes to mind, I am not sure that is a proper occupation for a future first lady.

More than anything else this "slut shaming" has the advantage of confronting the religious right with their righteous hypocrisy.

[jodymarie aimee]

34. it was her choice to marry this vile man

I think this is just as dumb as saying if we have ladyparts we will automatically vote for women. It depends on the person, not the gender. You guys are bending over backwards to give charity to someone who does not deserve it. Man or Woman. If we can say Don is a dick, we can say Melania is a dick. And yes, she holds responsibility for enabling him. Aren't Don Jr Eric and Ivanka equally disgusting? Did you enjoy them performing at the convention for Popsy? A man who will destroy our world.

I always said I didn't care if Bill Clinton screwed watermelons, he was a good president. Same deal here. I don't care what Melania did, nor do I judge her on that sex stuff. She is a dick for her choice in a husband.

[treestar]

101. Good point. And marrying for money

is not a good trait - we know that has to be it - what other reason could there be to marry this vile man who is 28 years older?

[cap]

35. The problem is that being an escort is intertwined with her visa status

what was she doing between 1995 and 2001(??? when she got a change in visa based on marital status -- according to one account of the history of her visas). She married trump in 2005.

Her work history is very relevant.

Also, did she lie on her visa application? She stated she was a university graduate until she wasn't. What was her employment history and was it lawful? If she was an escort, that is not lawful employment for a work visa.

[nolabear]

38. I appreciate Hillary being unwilling to read a Trump quote about Ivanka on Kimmel last night.

I think things that are relevant to the transparency in the campaign or family are fine. And I think things that might cause them to be vulnerable in some way that might compromise the US are fine. But modeling photos and innuendo aren't.

That said I admit to some prurient interest in Melania's absence and being willing to joke about it. FREE MELANIA!

[cap]

45. Having a spouse work illegally when your campaign is all about deporting illegal immigrants

Is very pertinent. So, what was Melania doing in the US between 1995 and the date she got a green card, and how she got a green card is very interesting. You usually don't get a green card unless you have been a resident in the US for 10 years or you are married to a US citizen. We are to let Melania off while every day farm workers and cleaning ladies and factory workers are marched out the door.

How she supported herself in the US is very important. You don't get a work visa for being an escort. You werent supposed to pose as a model for free in the US without a work visa (at the time she was a model).

. It is very strange how this story has been evolved. First it was reported by these very small outlets -- one or two with the name democrat or liberal in it. Then the Daily Mail. The person who wrote two books on it is gone and the books have been pulled from Amazon.

Interesting enough, the little outlets that have been shut down are in the US. THey don't have the resources to fight TRump. In the US, Trump has to prove the story to be wrong. The Daily Mail is in the UK where they have to show the evidence. It would be very strange if this paper that published all kinds of crap on a regular basis would not have the evidence.

I say let this story unfold. I think there are some dark actors at work and letting this story unfold will show us what's going both with Melania and her visa as well as how news stories evolve.

[pnwmom]

41. Her husband TWEETED out the reference to her lawsuit, so he was slut shaming her if anyone was.

How many people know about the escort allegations till he did that?

But it has been 2 weeks since he promised she'd release her proper immigration papers at a press conference. We're still waiting on that.

[jcgoldie]

43. Good post

There's enough disgusting crap coming out of Trump's mouth and in his personal history to not have to stoop to attacking his wife. The only relevant thing in this whole line of attack is if she was working as an illegal immigrant then it makes him look like a huge hypocrite due to his own policy positions on immigration which is fair game.

[zenabby]

46. I'm a feminist too, and I I am at odds

On one hand, if Donald (Donial, donathan) points to Ted Cruz's wife and comments on her past as escort, looks etc, then it is only normal to ask - "You talk of others, what about your wife".On the other hand, there's plenty to talk about The Don, so maybe don't go there.

I think we as a society recognize women's sexuality as a valuable commodity if for no reason other than that is men's Achilles heel. Men seem to be so strong, but that is one thing they can't resist. We are okay when the sexuality is used by men and women are victims (then it's not the woman's fault), but we balk when women take ownership of their sexuality and try to capitalize on it - then they are sluts.

To all I say - Kim Kardashian is a feminist. She owns her body, and makes millions and everyone complains but clicks. So is Melania. She knew her strength (her looks) and capitalized on it. It was her decision. More power to her.

BUT, she should then be okay with her nude pictures displayed. Scott Brown's nude pictures were on full display as well. Being pictured nude is not a normal course, and anyone doing that should be ready for the publicity that comes with it - positive or negative.

[mothra1orbit]

57. This is difficult for me

Naked women are the bread and butter of Art and always have been. The photos were not all that salacious and I think it could be argued that what was being attempted was art photography. I don't think the naked pictures are a problem for many people, certainly not feminists, and I doubt that they were embarrassing for her or her husband. Her husband is a troglodyte who would be proud to let everyone else have a look at what he goes to bed with, and Melania was a professional model, so this was her work, and I think she should be proud of it.

The possibility that she was an escort and met Donald Trump that way is another matter. What is being described as "slut shaming" doesn't seem to me to be exactly that. If DT were not running for president, if he were not such a huge liar who exaggerates everything about himself, if he were not the kind of person it would embarrass to be found out as a client of an escort service, I don't think anyone would care about this, either. I think the person being shamed is Donald Trump, in that he had to pay to meet his beautiful wife (who has mastered Blue Steel, btw), that he may have married someone who had sex with other men for money, is what is interesting to people. Unfortunately, Melania is unavoidable collateral damage.

In the same way, I don't think anyone would care about her visa status if her husband hadn't set her up by being so vicious about illegal aliens.

It's sort of like the family of a man convicted of a crime. He gets sent to jail, but they suffer, too, through no fault of their own.

[CajunBlazer]

69. Totally agree

[Me.]

47. Did It Come Into Play With Her Getting A Green Card?

Last edited Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Influence used for the pretty escort? We don't know but with all things Melania, it seems, the facts/truth aren't obvious. Is she in fact as big a liar as the man she married? Could a future first lady be blackmailed? And I have to say I certainly didn't appreciate the smug tone she used about her immigration status.

[shireen]

48. totally agree

I feel empathy for her. Her life may appear glamorous on the outside, but internally, I think she's been really hurt by this campaign. She and her son should be off-limits.

[loyalsister]

111. Exactly

I find it hard to imagine that she was consulted or that she really has much personal agency over her life. I think she was most likely thrown to the wolves. To slut shame her is to join Trump in his sexist behaviors, one of which is having wives he can control.

[MFM008]

49. She needs to go down

With him.

[Motley13]

51. Still waiting for her news interview

[skepticscott]

52. It is not slut shaming, but hypocrisy shaming

The GOP has tried to paint themselves for decades as the "family values" party, the party of morality and decency. This is to drive home the point that that's bullshit, and to keep them from using that tactic without looking like lying hypocrites.

Not Melania's fault, you say? Maybe she doesn't deserve to be caught in the middle of that fight, but she willingly hitched her wagon to a shitbag like Trump, so I'm not weeping for her. This is not a personal attack on her...Nobody gave a shit who she stripped for until now.

[Silent3]

64. Exactly. n/t

[BooScout]

66. Exactly

I am a stark raving feminist. As far as Melania is concerned it's HYPOCRISY SHAMING of the right if anything.

[anneboleyn]

99. Exactly (see my post below). Melania is an ABUSER OF WOMEN as much as Trump, and it is disgusting

[catbyte]

53. I agree about the slut shaming, but I don't mind regular shaming, if she indeed lied about her

university degree, her undocumented status, and I view a spouse a little differently than family. Don the Con's kids couldn't choose their old man, but Melania certainly could've chosen a decent man to marry. I'd be fine with just leaving her out of this altogether, because after her plagiarism debacle at the RNC, she has all but disappeared anyway. Although, we're waiting on her presser that Don the Con promised, but I suspect that was just another lie.

[Lisa0825]

54. Here's the way I see it... I don't care if she posed nude or worked as an escort, BUT...

... her husband is running for the party of "Family Values," and that SHOULD bother THEM, or they are hypocrites. I compare this to outting gay closeted Republicans who take stands against marriage equality and equal rights in general.

If the opponent is going to be a hypocrite on any issue, then using it against them is fair game, in my opinion.

[Shankapotomus]

58. That's fine

But what about her lying about her education? Isn't that fair game?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

59. yes, that is. As is her plagiarizing FLOTUS

[Historic NY]

60. Why did Rupert Mudouch's NY Post print the pictures???

[CajunBlazer]

70. Because Trump is proud for everyone to see what he is bedding

Besides Mudouch probably already knew that Don the Con is planning a new outlet to compete directly against Fox.

[Maeve]

114. He may have also been trolling for attacks that could allow for counter-attacks

"See how they go after his wife just because she's beautiful????!!!!!!"
Actually didn't work that well...instead, folks turned to her immigration status at the time....

[JCMach1]

65. It wouldn't be, but the Repugs are pretty damn obsessed with whose

semen goes where when it comes to Clinton.

I don't see it as slut shaming...

It's political virtue circle jerk...

[CajunBlazer]

67. It must be tough being the latest trophy wife

Last edited Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Does anyone really believe Melania would have even noticed, much less married this buffoon if he was rich?

Do you think Trump would have given her a second look if she wasn't beautiful.

They deserve each other.

[AgadorSparticus]

72. I don't think that it is about Melania at all. This is about Republican hypocrisy.

The Republican holier than thou attitude and evangelical bullshit double standard is what I think is pissing people off. Perosnally, I don't think there are too many liberals that would be offended by grown adults posing nude or engaging in consenting sexual activities.

For example, they went on and on about Michelle Obama's sleeveless outfits and dresses. Is it appropriate to show so much SHOULDER? A damn shoulder! And yet, here's Melania going nude. And there's no outrage on the right. That sort of staggering hypocrisy is just too much.

[LenaBaby61]

81. And the church says AMEN to your post..

To all you've said.

Current FLOTUS Michelle Obama has been a stellar First Lady, and she STILL gets raked over the coals, her accomplishments STILL mocked, and she and her husband still called "uppity" as a way to say how dare those Ni@@ars achieve by having college educations and go after the "American Dream" as in Sen. Barack Obama run for POTUS. Also, 8 years into being FLOTUS she's still called a monkey, gorilla, told to go back to Africa and called worse (The N-word, and her husband's birth to an American and his patriotism is still questioned as in MANY tRump supporters and the like think he's Kenyan, Muslim, and terrorist and that Melania is more of an American than he'll ever be).

So, while I believe that everyone has the right to their own opinions, as does the OP of this thread, I personally could care LESS when Melania Trump is mocked because she decided to pose nude/with women etc.. I mean really, Michelle Obama was criticized for showing her shoulders (Oh, and for being intelligent) as you mention, and to my knowledge I didn't hear Melania jump to Michelle's defense did she? IF she did, please correct me.

Lastly, I saw Melania on the View being asked about HER birth certificate by Joy Behar, and Trump pretty much turned into a Birther like her husband and implied that HER birth certificate was more "legitimate" than Pres. Obama's was because hers was the "fabulous" Melania. She said "WE feel it's (Pres. Obama's Birth Certificate) was different than a birth certificate." Like she can act all righteous about birth certificates and illegal immigration. Like her Birth Certificate is real and Pres. Obama's isn't because she's European/Slovinian.

Yeah, poor little Melania. I've no pity for Melania the Birther/The plagiarizer/and who knows what else she's hiding, and I really don't have ANY pity for her racist, sexist, ignorant, Orange PIG of a lying Birther husband either.

[tammywammy]

74. I agree.

I will never slut shame her, I don't care that she posed nude.

I do care that she plagiarized Michelle Obama. I do wonder about her immigration to the US since it's such a hot topic for Donald. I do care that she lied about having a degree when I busted my ass working full time and going to school full time for undergrad and part time for graduate school.

I do respect that she's not on the campaign trail, because it's not something she apparently likes or wants to do.

And I strongly disagree with the thread that was on here the other day saying that Kelly Anne must be sleeping with Trump.

[Wounded Bear]

75. That's fine...

but if she lied about her education and immigration status, that's a problem.

[Person 2713]

76. I can't keep up ...she was at one time an escort?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

84. That's what people allege, probably not true.

[obamanut2012]

96. I actually think it may be true

But, don't care if it is.

[RandySF]

77. It's very rare to find people who do not care of one was ever a sex worker.

It may be the most honest profession when it's transacted between consenting adults. BUT Melania seems riled up about it enough to file suit, so it is probably not true.

[ArcticFox]

80. is prostitution illegal or not?

I don't recall a whole lot of "don't smoke-shame" when Bill Clinton was forced into that "didn't inhale" contrivance.

In fact, prostitution is a valid reason to deny a green card, and citizenship. It's an issue irrespective whether one considers her a "slut".

[Warren DeMontague]

87. I'm not sure the past several decades of throwing pot smokers in prison is really a good example.

Whether Bill Clinton actually inhaled or that was just a goofy invention, the fact is that Obama handled it much better, when he said "yes, I inhaled, that was the point".

And in doing so he prompted a long-overdue conversation on our drug war and by extension the philosophical underpinnings of the arguments authoritarians use to lock up consenting adults who engage in behavior they personally don't approve of.

I also think there's plenty of stuff to attack Donald Trump over; his wife isn't running for POTUS.

[ArcticFox]

130. I respectfully disagree

This is the wife of the birther in chief, and maybe she never should have gotten her citizenship. And turnabout is fair play - Trump attacks family members left and right.

[akbacchus_BC]

82. Just pay back for all the insults hurdled towards the First Lady, Mrs. Michelle Obama!

[Cit4Truth]

83. Melania is super SUSPECT and should be investigated (but being an escort or not is not an issue)

I agree there's nothing wrong with being a prostitute (if she was) or posing nude. But there are serious questions about her past, and it is disturbing that there has been so little attention placed on it. The one reporter who went to Slovenia to research her background was barraged by online hate afterwards, which seems to clearly indicate that someone does not want her past exposed. Given all of Trump's connections to Russia (his finances, advisors, Putin policies, invitation to hack), I hope someone (at least the CIA) is investigating the real possibility of Melania being some level of spy or foreign agent. She grew up in the Soviet Bloc, and her father was a member of the Communist party there, which only 5% of the population was. By itself, I would not be suspicious of this, but it fits too well with the overwhelming pattern of Trump's campaign seeming to be controlled by or acting in the interests of Russia.

Combine this with the fact that Melania has lied about her education, her immigration, possibly her marriages, her speech, and the hate intimidation of the reporter, and it is quite alarming.

I am happy for Melania to be an Escort. But her past immigration history and possible connection to Putin must be thoroughly investigated.

[Warren DeMontague]

85. I don't think most people in 2016 give a shit that she posed nude, at all.

There are a few people who still can't deal with things like full frontal nudity on HBO, etc. but by and large most people in this country couldn't care less.

Her choice, she was a consenting adult, moving on.

I'll shame her for stealing Michelle Obama's speech, though.

[treestar]

89. IMO the point is really not that but

the concept of "what if Hillary had done this?" and how the media would react to THAT. And how inconsistent it is with Republican "family values." It makes it kind of clear that the Republicans are lying on that subject - they don't really care about these things but use them to get fundie voters. Fundie voters are gullible if they support Donald anyway. Thinking he is a Christian is the most pathetic delusion, and it is weird to see some of the leaders trying to push it.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. Well, the Republican Family Values thing is obviously a giant joke.

I mean they put mike 'anti-condom" pence on the ticket, they stuck a plank promising to censor internet porn in the platform, all in a desperate attempt to maybe get some demographic to the polls beyond a few flat taxers and cranky racists.

But it's laughable, because that rick santorum culture war crap was never all that popular, and now it's laughably dated, particularly to millennials.

[obamanut2012]

94. Exactly -- if you gender-slur one woman, you gender-slur all women

I have gotten a lot of flak on her and IRL for defending all the female Palins, Carly, Megan Kelly, etal against any kind of gendered language.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

97. Yes, this is not pure altruism on my part. It is both principle + the reality of being a woman

[anneboleyn]

98. Wrong. Melania defends Trump's disgusting attacks on women. She is viciously hypocritical

and she really doesn't need anyone at DU scolding other DUers for not criticizing Melania in the right way -- in other words, the OP is "virtue signaling" and shaming other DUers for responding "Incorrectly" to the many inconsistent ways in which Melania has presented herself.

I think posters at DU who are critiquing her possible past as an escort or whatever in addition to her apparent/alleged lying about her architectural degree and modeling work in the U.S. are not engaged in simplistic "slut shaming" in the way you are presenting it. They are responding to her reprehensible defense of a man (remember her many statements about how Trump only attacks women if they deserve it?) whose vile attacks on women are infamous, and she herself has attacked journalists who dare to question details of her past, and she herself has shamed women who didn't have the phenomenal "success" she has had as a model who managed to land herself an aging billionaire.

I don't care if she worked as a $50-an-hour hooker when she met Trump. I DO CARE that she hypocritically attacks other women, has made many holier-than-thou comments about how other women "deserved it" from Trump, excuses his reprehensible body-shaming remarks like calling Hillary "disgusting" because she went to the restroom during one of the primary debates, and that she endlessly defends that pig from their Versailles-like penthouse in the sky. I REALLY don't think we need to spend time shaming other DUers for critiquing Melania. Frankly I find the odd sympathy that I have seen in a few threads here to be VERY misguided. Melania is no meek, innocent lamb, and she is absolutely not an icon for women in any way whatsoever. There are many stories about her (alleged or some journalist will get sued) abusive treatment of Trump staff for just one example.

Melania actively participates in the most vicious patriarchal demeaning of women by repeatedly defending her appalling husband's degradation of other women. Trump is an abuser, and Melania constantly excuses his behavior in public. HER DEFENSE OF TRUMP'S ABUSE OF OTHER WOMEN IS A PUBLIC AND POLITICAL ACT WITH CONSEQUENCES. She participates in his attacks and enables the abusive behavior to continue.

Melania has presented herself, while of course armed with Trump's lawyers and threatening to sue ANY journalists who question her version of her past with its glossy details of architectural degrees and astonishing success as a model, as an incredibly savvy business woman who made piles of $$$ based on her Vogue covers while defending her husband's vicious shaming of other women and their appearances and every other grotesque remark he has made.

I don't even want to delve into some of the OP's comments like "sometimes the most important asset women have is their looks..." I have worked in this field and know many women who do work as exotic dancers, pose nude, etc., and I have ZERO moral issues with posing nude and I understand that it is a way for women to make money, etc but that comment is very odd from someone who claims to have an informed feminist perspective on such matters.

[cleanhippie]

102. You accuse many in this thread of sexism, yet say yourself a woman's assets are looks and body.

That's pretty fucking sexist, don't ya think?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

107. I said sometimes that's all a woman has

It's not sexist, it's reality. Nice try though.

[KittyWampus]

104. It's about the hypocrisy. And as a feminist and liberal I dislike the term "slut shaming".

[raven mad]

106. Bullshit she's not responsible.

WAS SHE AN ADULT? That might be unusual for sTRumPutin But she hasn't run and divorced him and gotten an actual life.

And slut applies, I'm sorry. She married for money.

[Sunlei]

108. I don't understand why she "loves" and sticks with a man who calls woman "Fat pigs"

[BlueInPhilly]

109. "They go low, we go high" N/T

[Laura PourMeADrink]

110. Well, true perhaps, BUT, there are people I have talked to that actually

care about the character of a US first lady. May be old fashioned thinking - but there are still people who want the president and first lady to be someone to admire.

[bluestateguy]

112. On the merits I suppose you are right

But it's not my job to defend her.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

113. i am not defending her, i am defending liberal values though.

[Unit 001]

115. There's plenty to condemn her for apart from her prior sex life or occupation

She's Mrs. Trump now and she's fair game insofar as she is a part of the campaign.

I don't think her prior sex life is relevant.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

116. Agreed. One can attacks people without reinforcing sexism.

[LynneSin]

117. I hope you have better luck getting through the to the 'slut-shamers'

If I see one more photo of Melenia Trump wearing some skimpy outfit from back in her modeling days I'll scream. She was a model and that's what models do. Those photos do NOT make her unqualified to be the first-lady of the United States. The fact that she is married to Donald Trump makes her unqualified!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

118. well stated.

[Warren DeMontague]

123. It's interesting that the same crowd who was upset at the nude Trump statues for shaming the Donald

don't have a problem with shaming Melania for being nude.

The only common thread I can see is, naked people make them mad.

[prayin4rain]

124. I don't want people who sell

fake degrees and sex in the white house. That's not the type of leadership that I want for the country.

IF she did work as an escort (which I have not seen any proof of), she was not selling her body because she was destitute. She was doing it because she wanted MORE money than she could get without selling her body.

I think they're both morally bankrupt people. And if he were the former escort and she was the real estate mogul, fake degree selling, carnival barker, I'd feel the same way. Believing that morals are important and saying so is not sexist.

And, also, sometimes the most important assets that men have are their looks and body, too.

[Demsrule86]

125. I don't care about Melania really

I will say this. Imagine if a Democratic presidential candidate had a wife who had been an escort which is a prostitution in most cases and had posed nude? Heck, they went after Hillary because she was a feminist. I would not want Melania as the first lady because she is a hypocrite and her husband is Donald Trump. I have known many immigrant women who made it without holding the job of escort and marrying rich.

[cap]

128. Let's see, the press went after Hillary for having a job,

Working on issues, not baking cookies, having multiple hair styles, shaming her publicly over Bill's issues, and generally raking her over the coals for whatever they could. And we are supposed to give Melania, the meek, a pass?

[apcalc]

126. I agree. Let her do what she wants. Sorry she married that SOB, but we all make mistakes.

[Hoyt]

127. Agree. There is plenty to dislike in that family without going there. Of course, it's not like

right wingers have left the First Lady alone.

[One of the 99]

131. I agree

But since the nude photos appeared in the pro-Trump NY Post, as some have speculated that it was Trump himself who provided them. What does that say about him?

[DFW]

132. I agree on all points

The exploitation of her at the Republican convention was despicable, and I give it at least an even chance that the reason she hasn't been seen much in public since then is that she now understands what was done to her.