2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumDemocrats call for ‘pathway’ to marijuana legalization
Democrats call for pathway to marijuana legalizationBy David Weigel July 9 at 6:27 PM
ORLANDO The Democratic Party endorsed a "reasoned pathway to future legalization" of marijuana and called for the drug to be downgraded in the Controlled Substances Act, in a tense and unexpected victory for supporters of Sen. Bernie Sanders.
Going into the platform committee meeting, Sanders's campaign had no new language about marijuana. The senator from Vermont had favored state-to-state legalization efforts, and the language approved by the drafting committee called for "policies that will allow more research on marijuana, as well as reforming our laws to allow legal marijuana businesses to exist without uncertainty."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/07/09/democrats-call-for-pathway-to-marijuana-legalization/#
RKP5637
(67,109 posts)Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)This was a "tense and unexpected victory." How could any actual Democrat be opposed to it?
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)It should have been completely legalized 30 years ago at least IMO.
A harmless plant with many, many medical uses not to mention other products that can be made from it.
Legal alcohol and tobacco are absolute scourges on mankind compared to this little herb.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)For profit prisons and many police forces as well.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)We spend something like 60 billion a year so we can fill our prisons with pot smokers.
MH1
(17,600 posts)Anything that helps us with party unity, I'm cool with.
But I have to wonder, what? Hillary didn't already support this? What the ....??
Then again, at my job sometimes I'll embed an intentional, "obvious" (ha ha) error in a document I'm sending out for review, just to see if anyone actually reviews it. (They rarely do, LOL.) Or more analogous to this situation, to give my boss something to "correct" so he doesn't feel the need to mess with the actual substance. (Scott Adams once did a Dilbert cartoon on this theme. One of my favorites because oh so true.)
So maybe this was something like that ... give the other side something to claim victory on that you were always going to support anyway. So I won't get too wound up at the implication that this was some sort of fight with the Hillary team. (I so hope I am right.)
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)But Clinton said she agreed with Sanders on reforming the criminal justice system when it comes to punishment for pot.
"We have got to stop imprisoning people who use marijuana," she said. "Therefore, we need more states, cities, and the federal government to begin to address this so that we don't have this terrible result that Senator Sanders was talking about where we have a huge population in our prisons for nonviolent, low-level offenses that are primarily due to marijuana."
And in favor of rescheduling:
So pathway to legalization is a definite improvement, though worth noting that support for medical marijuana and rescheduling is also a fairly big improvement from where we were a few years ago.
MH1
(17,600 posts)Getting it off Schedule 1, allowing medical marijuana, and reducing incarcerations, are the highest priorities for me so I am cool with that.
That said, I'm in favor of full legalization including growing for personal use. I should be able to grow pot in my basement if I want to. There should be laws against selling or giving it to kids due to the interference with brain development. Obviously those laws would often be disobeyed, but probably no more than happens currently.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)It does nothing to reconcile the conflict btw. federal and state law.
That said, the clock is ticking on prohibition. Particularly if CA passed measure 64. The whole west coast will be legal, the horse will be out of the barn.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)4 states legalized, another 12 will have it on the ballot by Nov. It's an issue the democrats head to adopt.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)It may take a few years for the East Coast to catch up, of course.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)We knew it wouldn't end badly, because the drug war is pretty much a catastrophic error that the US government made, up there with cold war Latin American shenanigans (though the drug war impacts us more directly).
Mind you I do think they had their reasons, but as the saying goes, if you only have a hammer you see every problem as a nail. Drug issues are mental health issues, not criminal issues. Colorado has done exceedingly well with the mental health message (once it left the criminal realm they had no choice) and teen marijuana use is down because of it.
Watch Cocaine Cowboys for a bit of dirty insight to the cartels. There were some cartels in Miami that rivaled modern Mexican gangs, with literal assassinations of babies and crap. In the US. In the 80s and early 90s. People were being gunned down in the street at Dallas levels every single day. Whole wedding parties were executed just like what happens in Mexico.
Bill Clinton did change that whether we want to accept it or not. The numbers don't lie. But it came at a great moral cost because no one had the fucking political fortitude to go "Wait a fucking second, it isn't criminal that people are doing coke. Let's moderate that shit." Instead the political solution was "let's militarize the police."
A terrible mistake and a total loss for our society for 3 decades. I'm glad we're finally beginning to see the light. We're going to be like Amsterdam eventually. Yes even stuff like cocaine is going to get legalized (you may laugh at me but we're going to just realize that it's untenable to stop it, best to regulate and control it). LSD and shrooms are probably going to find a lot of useful research qualities and even the pharmas are going to get on board that.
With a proactive drug policy that eventually decriminalizes everything, maybe stuff like meth won't be legalized, but the penalties would be low, imo. Maybe I'm pipe dreaming. But I have been predicting marijuana legalization since I joined this forum. I predicted Cuba relations healing. I predicted marijuana on the platform, the public option. That the platform would be the most liberal in history.
I also predicted TPP would go forward. Though I was wrong that Clinton would openly support it, she's in that vague gray area where she won't openly support it, but she damn sure isn't pushing against it, really disappointing; let's be realistic, if the presumptive nominee walked into the drafting committee and said "I am against TPP, adopt Sanders' language" they would do it; I have a feeling she is deferring to Obama out of respect, but probably isn't as against it as she suggests, she just wants to see what happens with it.
And unlike most DUers I don't think it will change things that much, China has already literally dominated US manufacturing (reach to any thing in your vicinity and pick up some non-food item not made in China, it's fucking impossible; you're reading this on something made, manufactured, or produced in China in 99% probability). What TPP changes is that instead of getting furniture from Mexico, you get furniture from Malaysia or Vietnam. Is that bad? I'm not sure I give a fuck. My mom bought a very very nice wood kitchen table set that I put together for her. It was made in Vietnam. Solid wood, very nicely made. As I put it together I saw the big Made In Vietnam taped on big piece of paper on the bottom of it. With poor grammar in the message congratulating us for the purchase and encouraging future business. I wasn't even mad. She got it for a decent price. An artisan probably would've been twice as much in America and it probably wouldn't have been easily assembled (preassembled most likely, with some kind of focus on no bolts or whatever because a true craftsman would scoff at such a thing). And it wasn't that garbage particle board shit that IKEA puts out (don't get me started on their foam furniture, they literally make furniture out of foam, that won't last a few years). Solid fucking wood for half the price you could get a local guy to make it for. If not a third of the price.
Sorry for ranting Warren. I like you, I admit. I may be a little drunk. (Now that's something mental health government should work on, there.)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)It's a good rant. Actually, it deserves more of a thoughtful response than I can get into right now, so I'll just say this and get to the rest later: I'm not as adamantly or reflexively anti-TPP as a lot of people. I realize this may get me kicked out of the Sanders club. My wariness around the thing has to do with things like the intellectual property stuff, or grumblings Ive heard around pharma patents, that kind of business. And when the EFF is opposed to something I pay attention.
But I dont think "free trade" or globalization can be stopped, in this day and age- and I think what many people are really upset and angry about is the changing landscape of the world due to technology - and how that has affected and will continue to affect jobs. Understandable, and I dont know exactly how we as a society should address that through public policy- nevertheless, I dont think protectionism will fix it.
My other problem with the TPP is the lack of transparency. We should be allowed to read it, I think.
The rest of it- it's a really good post and deserves an attentive reply. I'll get there.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I consider you a friend. Despite dunk posting / replying.
Thanks for hearing me. I know I was all over the place, there. I truly do. And yes, I'm drunk posting. But even still, I am totally appreciative of your post. Technology is changing everything, check my idiotic journal, it's all I rant about, practically. I've gone on some pretty nutso rants. But I swear, I'm 5/5 in my crazy ass predictions. Only thing left is basic income. Will I live to see it? Probably ... yeah. If the Actuarial Life Tables work out.
My biggest misgiving with TPP is how it handles environmental stuff, see, IP is how corps leverage environmental innovation, and the US is pretty good at patenting or utilizing these regulations, so, in the end, say some company in some TPP country manages to be more efficient. They're fucked. We got the environmental laws, we got the ISDS upper hand. They are fucked. So, rather than saying "what happens, happens," we go "how dare they do something better than us." (Environmentally.) I hate that aspect of the TPP. Clinton is kinda channeling it, but no, she's not fighting it. It's paramount. We got a problem here.
Be well, I anticipate the reply.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I mean, the West Coast benefits significantly from Pacific Trade, so as a principle I support it. And I don't think somehow we're magically going to start making all the stuff we buy domestically again.
I had a conversation here the other week about the whole "where is technology leading us" question, and yeah, all of us who have been reading science fiction and futurists for decades are like, "duh" around these questions. I mean, some folks have been telling us about automation, robots and the leisure economy since the 70s. (I'm a big Robert Anton Wilson fan, if you hadn't figured that out yet) ... the question of course is, do we end up with a dystopian future of gated off elites versus starving masses, or do we somehow share the benefits of the tech with all? Basic income, exactly.
On the rest of what you wrote- my attitude about drugs is, as a philosophical baseline sort of concept I truly believe people; consenting adults that is- deserve and need and shouldn't even have to ask for the right to make their own decisions about what to do with their own bodies, period, end of story, full stop. If our bodies don't belong to ourselves, who do they belong to? We went off the rails, I think, when we started declaring people the property of "God" and later, by extension, the state. I mean, if you get behind the wheel and endanger others, steal stuff, neglect your kids, etc. then you are crossing the line into making your business someone else's problem.. but the government shouldn't be in the business of outlawing what people do with their own bodies, bloodstreams, and nervous systems.
And this feeds into all kinds of stuff, not just the drug war, but also the right of terminally ill people to make their own end-of-life choices, reproductive freedom obviously, even the right of citizens to engage in consenting adult sex with other consenting adults of, say, the same gender- something which we kind of take for granted now, but was still illegal in places like Texas until the Lawrence decision. "My Body, My Business", that kind of thing.
So there's that. At the same time I admit I have trouble envisioning meth being sold at the 7-11. Like the current occupant of the oval office, I fucked around with all kinds of chemicals in my wayward youth, so I think I'm pretty objective about both the potential benefits and pitfalls of many of them. As a public policy matter there are two overriding primary things I think we need to do (after, of course, legalizing, regulating and taxing marijuana, which being so far towards the benign and beneficial side of the substance spectrum it's a no-brainer) one is, we need to stop imagining "drugs" are a monolith and treating them as such- two, we need to stop treating the arguably more dangerous ones as a law enforcement matter. Addiction- distinct from use, and people can be addicted to a lot of things, alcohol of course being one of the biggest and worst- is a public health matter. Treatment should be available on demand (and not limited to one-size-fits-all faith based 12 step approaches, but that's a separate rant)
If you took the tremendous profit potential out of something like cocaine, I have to believe that the violence associated with the trade would diminish. And the high prices are driven by prohibition. The substance itself is not that expensive to produce AFAIUI. At the same time, I have been paying attention long enough to know that a lot of the people who did large amts. of cocaine back in the day usually seem to end up with things like heart problems later in life. That scares me. But throwing people in prison for it isn't helping.
Psychedelics... Honestly, I think that some of those substances hold incredible promise not just for research and therapy for individuals, but contain inherent growth potential for society as a whole itself. I actually think this process has been going on for a few decades, certainly you see the influence of psychedelics in all kinds of industries, not the least of which being Silicon Valley, which was in many ways started by acidhead hippies in garages in the South Bay. (Where do you think Bill Gates got the windowpane logo in the first place? I'm kidding, except not totally)
To get sort of Joseph Campbell for a moment, I think one of the things our culture is lacking, or hasn't figured out how to incorporate into modern life fully yet, is a process -common in many earlier societies- whereby young people undergo a sort of initiation ritual via which they pass through to adulthood, imprint their identity and correlate their internal narrative with a larger narrative for the society/world and their place within it. I went through something like this process, I firmly believe, trekking around the country after the Grateful Dead years ago. A lot of fundamental personal growth happened during those times.
So I don't know, but I do believe that collectively we are growing up a great deal right now, and being more openminded and tolerant around everything from different lifestyles to the fact that some people can smoke pot on the weekends just like other people can have a few glasses of wine, and the sky is not going to fall--- this is sort of our societal overmind moving (finally, and with the inevitable fits and starts and backtracking) into the 21st century.
I do believe there has been great progress made in many areas, and I also think Obama has been an extremely transformative- sometimes in subtle, below the surface ways- president. Probably the best POTUS of my lifetime, in my opinion.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)This is why I like you, you're able to make a coherent rant like your post. Joseph Campbell's stuff is formative for me. Hero's Journey and all. It's great, and I use it regularly. See Clinton's rise and Trump's inarguable fall. It's just how I go.
It really and truly lifts my spirits that you agree with me that "great progress (has been made) in many areas." That's literally all I live for politically.
Shit's getting done. Slowly. But it's getting done.
We got a long way to go, the platform rejecting lifting the SS cap, rejecting other crap... we gotta get there. It sucks.
But I think we will.
Basic income (living wage, negative income tax) in my lifetime. That's my ultimate and last prediction.
Thanks for the super thoughtful reply. And as I said, I consider you a friend, at least, a DU friend, even if we've had disagreements (even here). I post to DU to get that thoughtful response, and I try my best, though I often fail, to try to be impersonal. It's just opinion. But I fail at that, insulting or overall being ugly to people I am "arguing" with. In reality the "argument" is empty. When you agree with someone 95% of the time, there's no actual argument, getting upset and being ugly over the 5% is totally unnecessary.
One last thing, I do, actually, think technology and automation is going to bring manufacturing back to the US. This isn't so much a prediction, because it's just how things are. If you got a machine that can make some jeans you're no longer needing to hire the third world factory worker to make 'em. It's just harder than canning peanuts (a job I am familiar with). But someone's bound to make that Jean Making Machine. So much profit to be made for it not to happen. Third world labor inhibits it, but it's just gotta happen, imho.
brewens
(13,588 posts)seething over how much they hate hippie stoners, aren't going to vote for democrats anyway. Democrats won't go republican over it. Doing it half-assed isn't going to ramp up enthusiasm.
You need "pathways" to citizenship for illegal aliens and such issues not to legalize fucking dope. It's easy and it doesn't hurt anyone.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)But, yes, a majority of Americans support legalization. I think the real hangup is the Eastern half of the Country. The West Coast is ready to go.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I agree with Sanders, though, that it should be removed entirely from the federal schedules and not merely downgraded.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,343 posts)Or, maybe a glance at where we might take a step.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)what is looking more and more like an inevitable march to sanity on the issue.
msongs
(67,409 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)What is the republican position on pot?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)fact of the matter is, really the only people who still support throwing pot smokers in jail are authoritarians and people tied financially to the drug war gravy train.
Chris Christie is one. Unfortunately our party still has people who support draconian prison sentences for marijuana use, too- like Debbie Wasserman Schultz.
I can't imagine she was pleased with this language in the platform, lol.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)the police one of their most abused tactics for harassing young people, especially young men and most especially young men of color. Take from them this tool which is used to stop, to escalate, to jail thousands of people every single year.
Why it needs to be a pathway to this is beyond me. 'The injustice must continue for some time still, as we ponder and parse, parse and ponder'.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Its baked into the system.
As long as states are allowed to do what Colorado did and California is probably going to do soon, it will be legal everywhere pretty quick.
Even republicans wont sit back for long and watch other states rake in millions and millions of easy dollars forever.
SaschaHM
(2,897 posts)making the ingestion of it legal. You have to regulate the sale, transfer, make many bureaucratic changes, change banking laws, etc. Some you can do overnight, some changes need to be done state by state, some need to be researched and implemented on the federal.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/amandachicagolewis/marijuana-arrests-down-in-colorado-for-white-teens-up-for-bl?utm_term=.paLXPw7dwy#.ha3LE8598R
I completely agree that we should take this tool away from law enforcement, but as a PoC myself, I'm keen to the realities of selective enforcement, which is creeping up in Colorado where PoC are still more likely to endure marijuana related arrests. They still have some work to do on that front.
TeamPooka
(24,228 posts)into a stream of jobs, taxes, and revenue that benefits all citizens.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Legal weed will create all kinds of jobs!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)There's a lot of institutional inertia around it, and I think the further East you go in the country the more reflexively averse to change on this matter public policy becomes (the beltway, of course, being pretty far East, local marijuana policy in DC notwithstanding) ... that said, the clock is ticking on prohibition.
And about damn time.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Better than the prior language about "states should be allowed to decriminalize"- to wit, the west coast has been decriminalized for decades; decriminalization and legalization are not the same thing.