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rateyes

(17,438 posts)
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:02 AM Jun 2016

Brexit is not good news for Hillary. She had better

start talking more about anti-austerity, anti-Wall Street, pro-Main Street, pro-labor, jobs, jobs, jobs that pay well. She needs to get adamant about defeating the TPP. She had better start using Bernie's playbook, and mean it.

Brexit was an anti-establishment vote. Right now 22% of Sanders voters say they will vote for Trump.(I am not one of them). We talk a lot about the "women's, Hispanic, AA vote". We need to start looking at another class of voter called the anti-establishment vote. That is a powerful voting bloc in this country, and many of those voters don't care if the anti-establishment candidate is a Republican, Democrat, Independent, Socialist, etc.

This post is critical of Hillary in an attempt to help her. Please, Hillary, fuck Wall Street, choose Warren as your VP and start running on her's and Sanders' economic policies. Otherwise, we just might be waking up in November as surprised as they are in the UK today!

Edit to add:

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-22/nearly-half-of-sanders-supporters-won-t-support-clinton

142 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Brexit is not good news for Hillary. She had better (Original Post) rateyes Jun 2016 OP
Great Britain just trashed its own economy for the foreseeable future. randome Jun 2016 #1
What cooperation? When did the Austerity people compromise with anybody? Fuck them. nt bemildred Jun 2016 #2
An intertwined economy is generally a peaceful one. randome Jun 2016 #6
Right, change the subject. bemildred Jun 2016 #8
This is one of the most peaceful eras in modern times. randome Jun 2016 #12
Then why must we spend all that money on it? bemildred Jun 2016 #20
Yes, that's the theory that most of us dispute. randome Jun 2016 #26
Right, a bunch of hand-waving dressed up with factoids. nt bemildred Jun 2016 #29
^^^This!^^^ Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #68
The only reason we spend so much on the military is that the Defense Contractors want more Dustlawyer Jun 2016 #35
There are more displaced refuges now than ever before. lastone Jun 2016 #105
We're not responsible for Syria's civil war. We are responsible for Iraq and related atrocities. randome Jun 2016 #117
The destabilization we've created in the middle east has --- lastone Jun 2016 #142
Excellent posts--both this one and the one above... Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #13
Is it the absence of true leaders on both continents that let things like this happen? randome Jun 2016 #17
Yes, it is. nt bemildred Jun 2016 #24
The ambitious jackass was willing to gamble it all just Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #34
Is it possible Great Britain will rejoin once they see how bad things have become? randome Jun 2016 #74
I've heard theories that there may have to be a second referendum Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #78
An interwine economy is NOT generally peaceful fasttense Jun 2016 #80
Right. Make war, not trade. That's a well-known saying. Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #85
Yes, and doctors use to tell you smoking was good for your lungs. fasttense Jun 2016 #101
I'm a dual-national residing in Europe. I and my friends feel directly impacted by this Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #103
I'm sorry you and your friends lost the vote. fasttense Jun 2016 #108
I did NOT lose the vote, as I had no vote to lose... Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #114
Don't berate me because you could NOT vote. It was NOT my fault fasttense Jun 2016 #119
Codswallop..."The reason the crazy right wing is able to con so many into hating so few Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #106
Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #131
Correlation does not imply causation. For your point to be proven, you would have to stevenleser Jun 2016 #87
That is almost impossible to in the social sciences because you can not account for every variable fasttense Jun 2016 #107
The EU didn't impose austerity on the UK. Britain imposed it on themselves. DanTex Jun 2016 #28
Right, and the UK just un-imposed it on itself. nt bemildred Jun 2016 #30
The austerity has nothing to do with being in the EU or not. DanTex Jun 2016 #36
No connection at all. Good to know. Completely unrelated. Got it. nt bemildred Jun 2016 #38
Yes, that is a good thing to know. Being informed is good. DanTex Jun 2016 #39
Do you seriously believe that Boris "the Trump" Johnson will dismantle Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #40
Huh? How does unilaterally wiping 100 billion from pensions... joshcryer Jun 2016 #42
So all those protests in the street by college kids was my imagination? n/t fasttense Jun 2016 #109
There have been a lot of protests of a lot of things. DanTex Jun 2016 #124
Well that's true fasttense Jun 2016 #128
EU had nothing to do with the UK austerity. They didn't "make sure" of anything. DanTex Jun 2016 #129
Most Americans don't care about European politics Renew Deal Jun 2016 #3
Most Americans are ignorant of American politics (n/t) PJMcK Jun 2016 #4
Trump obliterated the GOP field. Sanders shocked Dems. Barack_America Jun 2016 #18
Who's talking about Sanders supporters? Renew Deal Jun 2016 #25
Sorry but please change your POV... N_E_1 for Tennis Jun 2016 #63
Oh I see, no interest in dissuading people from voting Trump Mr Maru Jun 2016 #89
Please sir... N_E_1 for Tennis Jun 2016 #98
You're trying to use "fringe" as an insult and in so doing arte missing the reality Scootaloo Jun 2016 #115
We actually have large populist movements here, Hortensis Jun 2016 #19
+1000 ismnotwasm Jun 2016 #45
Thank you for this post. Why I think it's a rateyes Jun 2016 #46
Good point. We're in power, so we get the blame for Hortensis Jun 2016 #88
Maybe if Trump wasn't a fraudulent university scammer, a fraudulent steak seller, . . . brush Jun 2016 #84
Well, mostly I agree. Except that most people Hortensis Jun 2016 #91
If 22% of Bernie supporters say they will for the ultimate non-progressive, they are either RBInMaine Jun 2016 #5
Anyone who votes for Trump is neither liberal or progressive. Your assessment is right on RB still_one Jun 2016 #10
+1000! DemonGoddess Jun 2016 #22
Angry and ignorant is right. Yet, they vote and rateyes Jun 2016 #23
And you're going to lose a chunk of the other half because of Brexit. TwilightZone Jun 2016 #64
Yep. And those who caused the first loss rateyes Jun 2016 #66
No, their number really isn't legion. Lord Magus Jun 2016 #123
Yup La Lioness Priyanka Jun 2016 #50
Evidence of this stat: "22% of Sanders voters say they will vote for Trump"? FSogol Jun 2016 #7
Agreed. No real Sanders supporter would vote for Trump still_one Jun 2016 #11
"Nearly Half of Sanders Supporters Won't Support Clinton" baldguy Jun 2016 #15
The poll is what it is, but I don't buy it. For one thing it is a National Poll, taken right after still_one Jun 2016 #44
"Over four in 10 Sanders voters in West Virginia would vote for Trump" baldguy Jun 2016 #55
They were Trump supporters to begin with, okasha Jun 2016 #97
I don't buy that. Ilsa Jun 2016 #51
The PUMAs were higher in number. It turned out fine realmirage Jun 2016 #118
Here you go: rateyes Jun 2016 #14
Here's their methodology and questions FSogol Jun 2016 #21
I read the poll and see that there is some pretty rateyes Jun 2016 #31
The censorship squad is on active duty today. TheBlackAdder Jun 2016 #93
Yep. rateyes Jun 2016 #125
I pretend people who disagree with me are part of the mythical 'censorship squad' as well LanternWaste Jun 2016 #127
The mythical "censorship squad" that pulled me into jury service on that guy's post. No so mythical. TheBlackAdder Jun 2016 #137
I appealed and won! The post is back. rateyes Jun 2016 #140
Britain just fucked the world liberal N proud Jun 2016 #9
No, they just BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #95
lol Hiraeth Jun 2016 #116
Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #16
She better Her Sister Jun 2016 #27
What's this "she had better" shit? DemonGoddess Jun 2016 #32
Yes, imo, she better... rateyes Jun 2016 #33
Yeah I love when people speak like that! You better. She better! Her Sister Jun 2016 #41
Glad you love the tone. Too bad rateyes Jun 2016 #48
You do know what Brexit will do to GB economy right? leftofcool Jun 2016 #56
I saw that the Trump Bunch won that referendum rateyes Jun 2016 #57
Hillary is obviously doing just fine. leftofcool Jun 2016 #52
Trump is embracing Brexit, you're kidding me. joshcryer Jun 2016 #37
brexit is a Nationalism anti-immigrant vote....equates to our teaparty beachbum bob Jun 2016 #43
What's next? A national vote to determine safety regulations in mines? randome Jun 2016 #47
Actually, it is good news for Hillary. JaneyVee Jun 2016 #49
Good lesson for the American public maybe? workinclasszero Jun 2016 #54
Agree...they can observe an actual case study, but in miniature, of what a Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #73
You think she hasn't been talking about those things? ismnotwasm Jun 2016 #53
Thanks Hillary Kennah Jun 2016 #58
Yawn, the same old "people are going to vote Trump bc ESTABLISHMENT" forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #59
Well said... Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #75
YES SIR! riversedge Jun 2016 #60
I don't think you really grasp the subject matter. Tarc Jun 2016 #61
Based on the OP and some other comments here on DU this past few hours, it seems riversedge Jun 2016 #90
Excellent point: Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #111
I agree that Brexit is not good news for Hillary. Skinner Jun 2016 #62
^this^ rateyes Jun 2016 #65
thats alot of people swhisper1 Jun 2016 #67
Isolation, nationalism and nativism are not real alternatives. Adrahil Jun 2016 #70
I completely agree with you. Skinner Jun 2016 #71
I agree.. I just don't know what that is.... Adrahil Jun 2016 #72
You "don't know what that is"? Sanders's entire campaign is about what it is. w4rma Jun 2016 #126
I disagreed with his proposed solutions. Adrahil Jun 2016 #133
Agreed. Fortunately I think she is going to have a lot of help. stevenleser Jun 2016 #81
Getting out of the EU was about getting out of the experiment of free trade neoliberal economics fasttense Jun 2016 #83
I doubt 99% of those voting know anything about neoliberal economics. This was about stevenleser Jun 2016 #86
You know the arguments I keep hearing about the EU vote fasttense Jun 2016 #110
Of course we can opt out. (nt) Skinner Jun 2016 #113
How? N/T fasttense Jun 2016 #132
Both the congress and the President have the power to do this stevenleser Jun 2016 #138
Sadly, it appears that people who felt screwed by the global economy voted to screw themselves. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #102
She need not over react. That would be a big mistake also. And to those who think the status quo glennward Jun 2016 #69
Markets sliding all over the world...and Trump publically said he would have chosen to leave the EU Sheepshank Jun 2016 #76
Snark noted. You are rateyes Jun 2016 #77
It's the Independent voting block that is mostly in play for Hillary ALBliberal Jun 2016 #79
And in an article on MSM news, seems she just had another libdem4life Jun 2016 #82
She had a meeting with "unamed corporae CEOs? Oh, noes! lunamagica Jun 2016 #121
I'd beg to differ on Brexit; ericson00 Jun 2016 #92
This will pass. timlot Jun 2016 #94
if any sabbat hunter Jun 2016 #96
She was right. I don't see how that hurts her. liberalnarb Jun 2016 #99
Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #100
No talk of austerity in the US. except by some in the GOP. tonyt53 Jun 2016 #104
Trumpism works in the UK because it has the demographics and political system for it. SaschaHM Jun 2016 #112
Well said! n/t DemonGoddess Jun 2016 #120
She has been talking about jobs, jobs, higher wages okasha Jun 2016 #122
When John Major won the 1992 UK election RandySF Jun 2016 #130
I'm right with you! Thanks for the post floppyboo Jun 2016 #134
No good news for Hillary? This is not about Hillary. Beacool Jun 2016 #135
indeed. it will NOT T be a cakewalk, even if RUMP is a troll. trolls are kinda popular to the pansypoo53219 Jun 2016 #136
Your concern is noted NastyRiffraff Jun 2016 #139
Your lack of it is noted. rateyes Jun 2016 #141
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
1. Great Britain just trashed its own economy for the foreseeable future.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:05 AM
Jun 2016

Austerity is not the answer but neither is seceding from international agreements and generally throwing cooperation out the window.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
6. An intertwined economy is generally a peaceful one.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:10 AM
Jun 2016

Other ways could have been found to ease the economy. Cutting back on national defense, for one. People should have been focused on that instead of being given the opportunity to trash their own stock market.

I'm not British but the ripple effects of this will be profound. And the local affects will now be austerity without the opportunity for easement.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
8. Right, change the subject.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:12 AM
Jun 2016

Our economy is intewoven as can be and yet we spend most of our money on "defense". We are not peaceful at all.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
12. This is one of the most peaceful eras in modern times.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:16 AM
Jun 2016

We have far more weapons than we know what to do with, that's certain, but most aren't put to their intended uses.

And I was mainly talking about the U.K. They could have found other ways than austerity to ease the concerns of the people. We can do the same, all it takes is political will. In the U.S., that means dumping the lazy-ass GOPers.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
20. Then why must we spend all that money on it?
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:22 AM
Jun 2016

Do extra weapons bring peace, is that the theory?

Peaceful for whom is a good question too, whom is it peaceful for? There are certainly plenty of displaced people, it's not peaceful for them. What is the metric for "peaceful" that says this is a peaceful era? I think that is depraved bullshit, the modern world has become much more efficient at killing, peaceful my ass.

It's kind of like the EU. the people who voted to leave the EU clearly don't think it benefits them, so all the points about how they are screwing themselves fall on deaf ears.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
26. Yes, that's the theory that most of us dispute.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:30 AM
Jun 2016

We could cut our military expenditures in half and still feel secure. This is the 21st century. No one's going to invade the United States. That's ridiculous to even imagine.

And the evidence for Great Britain's 'mistake' is already being felt with the stock market plunge and the devaluing of the British pound. The people in this instance were wrong and I don't think it will take them long to see it.

God help us if Trump is President and starts trashing all our international agreements. Our economy is larger than Great Britain's so the effect would be larger, too, I think.

As for this being the most peaceful era in human history: http://www.salon.com/2014/01/15/were_living_through_the_most_peaceful_era_in_human_history_%E2%80%94%C2%A0with_one_big_exception_partner/

Dr. Steven Pinker, Pulitzer prize-winning author and Harvard psychology professor, writes, “Today we may be living in the most peaceful era in our species’ existence.” He acknowledges: “In a century that began with 9/11, Iraq, and Darfur, the claim that we are living in an unusually peaceful time may strike you as somewhere between hallucinatory and obscene.” Pinker points out, wars make headlines, but there are fewer conflicts today, and wars don’t kill as many people as they did in the Middle Ages, for instance. Also, global rates of violent crime have plummeted in the last few decades. Pinker notes that the reason for these advances are complex but certainly the rise of education, and a growing willingness to put ourselves in the shoes of others has played its part.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
68. ^^^This!^^^
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:24 AM
Jun 2016
The people in this instance were wrong and I don't think it will take them long to see it.

Dustlawyer

(10,497 posts)
35. The only reason we spend so much on the military is that the Defense Contractors want more
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:35 AM
Jun 2016

of our tax dollars. They pay the politicians to vote for more and more military spending when probably half of the Pentagon's budget can be classified as waste, fraud and abuse!

 

lastone

(588 posts)
105. There are more displaced refuges now than ever before.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:09 PM
Jun 2016

Which, I'm sorry but isn't peaceful for them at all... the "peace" we have attempted to shove down the throat of the mid east is the cause. We are not a peaceful country.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
117. We're not responsible for Syria's civil war. We are responsible for Iraq and related atrocities.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:38 PM
Jun 2016

Still, by the sheer numbers, this is a more peaceful era than in the past.

 

lastone

(588 posts)
142. The destabilization we've created in the middle east has ---
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 01:12 AM
Jun 2016

Affected Syria, anyone who claims otherwise is sadly uninformed.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
13. Excellent posts--both this one and the one above...
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:17 AM
Jun 2016
Austerity is not the answer but neither is seceeding from international agreements and generally throwing cooperation out the window.


An intertwined economy is generally a peaceful one.


People should have been focused on that instead of being given the opportunity to trash their own stock market.




 

randome

(34,845 posts)
17. Is it the absence of true leaders on both continents that let things like this happen?
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:21 AM
Jun 2016

Why did no one stop Cameron from letting this happen? Why does the GOP continue to make our own economy "hold its breath"?

Something has to give but it looks so far as if it's just random foot-stomping instead of any true leadership.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
34. The ambitious jackass was willing to gamble it all just
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:35 AM
Jun 2016

to counter the threat from the right (UKIP) and get himself reelected.

Monumental miscalculation. He will justifiably be vilified by future generations as the demagogue who destroyed the UK and facilitated the dismantling of the EU.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
78. I've heard theories that there may have to be a second referendum
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:59 AM
Jun 2016

to present the real black and white "divorce" terms to the British people for their ultimate approval, once the nuts and bolts have been negotiated with the EU.

For the moment, there is no plan, no way forward. It's all a lot of speculation.

HOW MUCH WILL THIS DIVORCE COST THE BRITISH NATION? WILL THEY BE WILLING TO PAY THE PRICE? That's the unaswered question.

At least for the moment, the price seems to be very steep indeed.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
80. An interwine economy is NOT generally peaceful
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:07 AM
Jun 2016

Shall I start listing all the wars fought over trade issues? Remember the American Tea Party Rebellion? It was the spark for the Revolutionary War. It was about tea. And the confederate war was about labor - the use of slaves. And allowing immigrants unfettered access to a countries' labor markets will reduce everyone's wages. And arguably the French Revolution would Not have happened if the royals had made bread available at low prices.

The opium wars, even the Roman wars were about getting more products and wealth into Rome.

Then of course being intertwined, an economic crash in one country will lead to a crash in another country. To say that economies being interwined is a good thing, is to ignore almost all of history.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
85. Right. Make war, not trade. That's a well-known saying.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:29 AM
Jun 2016


You need to read this:

A quick note on the first three tragedies. Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded, and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another.

Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors.

Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said, ‘The British people are sick of experts,’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has led to anything other than bigotry?


http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12023544/brexit-uk-young-voters



 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
101. Yes, and doctors use to tell you smoking was good for your lungs.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:03 PM
Jun 2016

Perhaps they have just traded out oligarchs but they have a better chance of changing things at the local level then at the EU level.

Do you feel your freedom of movement has been restricted here in the US? You have to get visas and passports to leave. We use to be able to go to Canada without passports but the bushes changed all that with the fear of terrorism excuse. Yes, I agree it's a hassle but the UK could set up agreements so that passports and visas are not required.

I don't get what you mean with your anti-intellectualism argument. Stupid people are more likely to be bigots? Is that what you are saying? If so I agree. The reason the crazy right wing is able to con so many into hating so few is because the EU has destroyed their economy and immigrants are an easy excuse.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
103. I'm a dual-national residing in Europe. I and my friends feel directly impacted by this
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:07 PM
Jun 2016

ill-informed and misguided vote.

Ignorant, zenophobic Brits are putting the whole European Union and Euro-Zone in jeopardy.

We live here and we know what that means.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
108. I'm sorry you and your friends lost the vote.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:15 PM
Jun 2016

Yes, you have some awful people exploiting a big problem in your governmental economics. I suspect it will happen here in the US too what with Trump and all the crazies.

The only good to come of it is that it will reduce corporatism and free trade BS. Let's hope it gets rid of austerity politics too.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
114. I did NOT lose the vote, as I had no vote to lose...
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:34 PM
Jun 2016
The only good to come of it is that it will reduce corporatism and free trade BS


Are you completely unaware of what has just transpired?

The Prime Minister has announced his intention to step down, in which case he is likely to be replaced by the dangerous, extreme RW Boris "the Trump" Johnson.

If you think he has any plans to "reduce corporatism and free trade", or "get rid of auterity politics", you are sadly mistaken and have been sorely duped by somebody.

As for losing the vote? I do NOT live in the UK and am NOT a UK subject. Therefore, I did NOT vote in the referendum yesterday.

Your sincere "concern" is well noted:

"I suspect it will happen here in the US too what with Trump and all the crazies."
 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
119. Don't berate me because you could NOT vote. It was NOT my fault
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:40 PM
Jun 2016

I'm sorry you could not vote.

Yes, even the crazies have to pretend to do what they claim or they will be gone too.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
106. Codswallop..."The reason the crazy right wing is able to con so many into hating so few
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:10 PM
Jun 2016

is because the EU has destroyed their economy."

Utter balderdash. Inform yourself else you appear silly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2215995

Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #106)

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
87. Correlation does not imply causation. For your point to be proven, you would have to
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:41 AM
Jun 2016

present a study of wars occurring between trading partners and between those who arent and prove that there is the same or more between trading partners. An anecdotal response like you just wrote doesnt prove that.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
107. That is almost impossible to in the social sciences because you can not account for every variable
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:10 PM
Jun 2016

And if you could control for every variable, it would probobly be inhumane.

My response was NOT anecdotal because I had such a huge amount of examples on my side and you had...nothing but your word. Only one example is required to disprove the hypothesis: "intertwined trading partners are peaceful". Add in the weasel word generally and 5 examples should be enough to disprove the hypothesis.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
40. Do you seriously believe that Boris "the Trump" Johnson will dismantle
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:37 AM
Jun 2016

30 years of neo-Con. Thatcherism? Dream on.

You are mistaken and misinformed.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
124. There have been a lot of protests of a lot of things.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:37 PM
Jun 2016

But the austerity was not imposed by the EU, it was imposed by the UK's own government.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
128. Well that's true
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:01 PM
Jun 2016

But EU support of austerity made sure the UK followed along.

I really think those people who lost the most and sank into pverty voted to exit because they blamed the EU.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
129. EU had nothing to do with the UK austerity. They didn't "make sure" of anything.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:13 PM
Jun 2016

It was all the Tory government.

The EU imposed austerity on Greece as a precondition for bailout loans, but Britain didn't need any loans or anything. And the Brits have their own currency, they weren't stuck with EU monetary policy like Spain is. UK's austerity was Cameron's doing.

I agree that the austerity contributed to the vote, but it's not factual to claim there is some kind of link between them.

Renew Deal

(81,872 posts)
3. Most Americans don't care about European politics
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:06 AM
Jun 2016

And the fringe will do what it does despite what reasonable people say

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
18. Trump obliterated the GOP field. Sanders shocked Dems.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:22 AM
Jun 2016

Still think anti-establishment is "fringe"? Looks to be the prevailing sentiment to me.

N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,778 posts)
63. Sorry but please change your POV...
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:11 AM
Jun 2016

on them being fringe. I was shocked at a large get together the other weekend. People I thought were rather informed on politics said Trump supports thier views. These are people that I thought were not racists, not xenophobic, not really conservative and yes a couple did vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary.

My wife and I did not try to change anyone's position, but rather used the opportunity to learn a little about the why's and wherefore's.

The one most common point that was brought up again from person to person was the distrust of career politicians and the dwindling aspects of the middle class.

They figure Trump, as scary as he is, will be a move away from those problems.
I don't agree with that POV but I'm getting a little worried that we tend to dismiss Trump a little too lightly.

Take this anyway you want. But I'll tell you, it opened my eyes way too wide and I will do anything I can to dissuade anyone from taking this election too lightly.

BTW, I live in suburban Detroit and still am a Bernie supporter. I will vote for and support Hillary Clinton in her quest.

Mr Maru

(216 posts)
89. Oh I see, no interest in dissuading people from voting Trump
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:03 AM
Jun 2016

But willing to do "anything you can" on DU. Got it.

N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,778 posts)
98. Please sir...
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:53 PM
Jun 2016

I either did not state it correctly or you misunderstood. At the party, we had no want to get into a heated political discussion.

At DU, I'm trying to voice my opinion on taking Trump too lightly. Plus these people cannot be considered "fringe".

I figured all here do not need persuasion to not vote Trump.

Excuse me for not being clear enough for you.

Thank you for your reply.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
115. You're trying to use "fringe" as an insult and in so doing arte missing the reality
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:38 PM
Jun 2016

Trump supporters make up a pretty large bloc of Republican voters who are themselves roughly half the country.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
19. We actually have large populist movements here,
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:22 AM
Jun 2016

Renew Deal, on both the right and left. Although I fail to see why Brexit is a special problem belonging to Hillary, I'm afraid Rateyes is right that many of these populists care far less about who gains power than in kicking the "establishment" they feel has failed and betrayed them in the teeth.

I despise the kind of destructive resentment that causes people to run out and burn their own grocery stores or vote for a Trump out of spite, but when many millions of people are regarding the ballot as a punitive and/or purifying torch they are far too dangerous to ignore.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
46. Thank you for this post. Why I think it's a
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:45 AM
Jun 2016

problem for Hillary is because of how Bill won in 1992. "It's the economy, stupid" was the theme of that campaign.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
88. Good point. We're in power, so we get the blame for
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:42 AM
Jun 2016

any downturns, or any perceived problems of any kind, as the election approaches. As far as economic wellbeing goes, though, according to one major poll a few months ago, don't remember which, a surprising majority felt they're doing okay or better. Millennials, the less educated of whom have gotten a really bad economic deal of the cards, mostly feel optimistic about the future.

brush

(53,871 posts)
84. Maybe if Trump wasn't a fraudulent university scammer, a fraudulent steak seller, . . .
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:20 AM
Jun 2016

a fraudulent vitamin seller, a poor businessman who bankrupted casinos, a racist who is hated by Latino Americans, the largest minority voting block in the country, not to mention African Americans, the second largest, who knows little about actual governmental policy, who knows little about Brexit issues (he arrive in Scotland for his golf course opening and began cheering the leave vote, even though Scotland voted to stay, if he had a staff of more than 30 people for the whole country who would have told him that Scotland voted to stay (Hillary has 130 people in just one state), if he had money to run national ads, he might have a slight chance at winning.

But all of the above are true.

He has no chance of winning because of who he is.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
91. Well, mostly I agree. Except that most people
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:18 AM
Jun 2016

not support him because of who he is but because of what they are and how they are reacting to things that have nothing to do with him. A classic populist movement coalesced around a seemingly "strong" man who expresses resentments and promises very simply with great conviction.

I agree you're going to be right, though, because most conservatives are not the type who support him, and he's making it ridiculously hard for most of those to do the usual conservative thing of getting behind their leader.

Assuming he's on the ballot in November, my guess is an appallingly large number will vote for him but that a sufficient number will just stay home on November 8, with only some crossover voting for Democrats. I'll even bet a whole fiver that turns out to be the case.

 

RBInMaine

(13,570 posts)
5. If 22% of Bernie supporters say they will for the ultimate non-progressive, they are either
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:09 AM
Jun 2016

COMPLETELY STUPID or were never real progressives in the first place, just angry ignorant goofballs shouting "anti-establishment anti-establishment anti-establishment" hysteria with no concept at all of
political theory and the policies which constitute political theories. Trump isn't anti-establishment. He is the poster boy of the CORPORATE ESTABLISHMENT and an ultimate CORPORATE INSIDER. No real progressive with a brain could vote for Trump.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
23. Angry and ignorant is right. Yet, they vote and
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:25 AM
Jun 2016

Their number is legion. There is a reason they are angry. Same reason I am angry. I lost half my retirement value because of Wall Street. I work harder for less. And those with good money had better start paying attention to the angry masses.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
66. Yep. And those who caused the first loss
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:20 AM
Jun 2016

are the same ones Hillary got rich off of, and who are funding her campaign.

Lord Magus

(1,999 posts)
123. No, their number really isn't legion.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:27 PM
Jun 2016

The "anti-establishment for the sake of anti-establishment" loons can safely be disregarded.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
7. Evidence of this stat: "22% of Sanders voters say they will vote for Trump"?
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:10 AM
Jun 2016

Otherwise, I call Bullshit.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
15. "Nearly Half of Sanders Supporters Won't Support Clinton"
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:18 AM
Jun 2016
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-22/nearly-half-of-sanders-supporters-won-t-support-clinton

A June 14th Bloomberg Politics national poll of likely voters in November’s election found that barely half of those who favored Sanders — 55 percent — plan to vote for Clinton. Instead, 22 percent say they’ll vote for Trump, while 18 percent favor Libertarian Gary Johnson. “I’m a registered Democrat, but I cannot bring myself to vote for another establishment politician like Hillary,” says Laura Armes, a 43-year-old homemaker from Beeville, Texas, who participated in the Bloomberg poll and plans to vote for Trump. “I don’t agree with a lot of what Trump says. But he won’t owe anybody. What you see is what you get.”

still_one

(92,403 posts)
44. The poll is what it is, but I don't buy it. For one thing it is a National Poll, taken right after
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:41 AM
Jun 2016

a hard fought primary, and before the Democratic Convention.

Anyone who is voting for Trump, whether they call themselves Democrats or not, has a bigotry problem.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
97. They were Trump supporters to begin with,
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:48 PM
Jun 2016

trying to nominate the easier Dem candidate for Trump to beat.

Which is why open primaries are a bad idea.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
21. Here's their methodology and questions
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:25 AM
Jun 2016
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-14/bloomberg-politics-national-poll-june-2016

If you can't see how that doesn't equate to 22% of Sanders supporters saying something, then I certainly can't help you.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
31. I read the poll and see that there is some pretty
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:34 AM
Jun 2016

Good news there for Hillary as well. It wasn't a push poll, either. But, since you see something there that I don't why won't you at least try to "help me?"

Here's what I see: I called bullshit on your bullshit, and have no better response from you than more bullshit.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
127. I pretend people who disagree with me are part of the mythical 'censorship squad' as well
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:56 PM
Jun 2016

I pretend people who disagree with me are part of the mythical 'censorship squad' as well. Granted, it's an irrational premise containing zero objective evidence, but it validates out biases, and that's all we need.

Active doody, indeed.

Response to rateyes (Original post)

DemonGoddess

(4,640 posts)
32. What's this "she had better" shit?
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:34 AM
Jun 2016

Because HRC doesn't harangue about what you want, it's now "she had better"? Try paying attention to what she says and what she's been running on, please.

sorry, wasn't in response to you, Her Sister, was in response to the OP

 

Her Sister

(6,444 posts)
41. Yeah I love when people speak like that! You better. She better!
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:37 AM
Jun 2016

Authoritarian tone is so charming! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE IT!

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
56. You do know what Brexit will do to GB economy right?
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:55 AM
Jun 2016

Assume you also realize this will not bode well for Don the Con?

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
57. I saw that the Trump Bunch won that referendum
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:58 AM
Jun 2016

despite the warnings of what it would do the economy.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
37. Trump is embracing Brexit, you're kidding me.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:36 AM
Jun 2016

He literally called it a great thing in Scotland not even an hour ago right after Scotland called for a second independence referendum. You can't make this up.

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
43. brexit is a Nationalism anti-immigrant vote....equates to our teaparty
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:38 AM
Jun 2016

and these morons have no idea what leaving the EU is going to do their country financially...and why you should have a vote like this to begin with

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
47. What's next? A national vote to determine safety regulations in mines?
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:45 AM
Jun 2016

Let the people decide these things! Then Great Britain will have government "small enough to drown in a bathtub".

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
49. Actually, it is good news for Hillary.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:47 AM
Jun 2016

Everyone gets to see in real time what Trump would do to the economy if elected.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
54. Good lesson for the American public maybe?
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:55 AM
Jun 2016

Wall street is gonna take a dive over this too I bet.

There goes a bunch of 401k money. Bye-bye!

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
73. Agree...they can observe an actual case study, but in miniature, of what a
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:46 AM
Jun 2016

Trump presidency would entail.

ismnotwasm

(42,014 posts)
53. You think she hasn't been talking about those things?
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:53 AM
Jun 2016

She does. She has a LOT of labor backing her.
I don't agree with your premise, that "she had better" or that Brexit is "not good news" for Hillary, because repeating one word memes as talking points to describe complex situations is a not a valid argument.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
59. Yawn, the same old "people are going to vote Trump bc ESTABLISHMENT"
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:01 AM
Jun 2016

except that the Brexit vote was largely a vote against POC immigration, with "anti-establishment" and "sovereignity" used as the fig leaves just like "abstract stuff like taxes" was a fig leaf for Atwater (except Trump has ripped off the fig leaf and is spinning it around)

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
75. Well said...
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:50 AM
Jun 2016
"...the Brexit vote was largely a vote against POC immigration, with "anti-establishment" and "sovereignity" used as the fig leaves."

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
61. I don't think you really grasp the subject matter.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:04 AM
Jun 2016

This is an anti-Europe, pro-British Nationalist vote, the British version of Trump's Brownshirt radicals carried the day over there, it isn't something to celebrate, and certainty isn't a negative to Hillary. If anything, she uses this to show hoe dangerous Trump's fear-based nationalism can be.

riversedge

(70,304 posts)
90. Based on the OP and some other comments here on DU this past few hours, it seems
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:15 AM
Jun 2016

these folks are claiming Trump can win--and the way to avoid it is for Hillary to adapt Sanders views on many items (free college and health care to name a few). They are using the Leave Vote as a fear factor.

I expect to hear more of this.


Later--work is calling.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
111. Excellent point:
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:23 PM
Jun 2016
If anything, she uses this to show how dangerous Trump's fear-based nationalism can be.

Skinner

(63,645 posts)
62. I agree that Brexit is not good news for Hillary.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:06 AM
Jun 2016

It's not a death blow by any stretch of the imagination. But I think it should be considered a shot across the bow for her campaign.

The fact that the leave side outperformed expectations is problematic. Brexit is clearly analogous to Trumpism: Against greater international integration, against immigration, against establishment elites.

Obviously the UK is a separate country, so the analogy can only go so far. But clearly this has tapped into something very powerful and very raw. Hillary needs to offer an alternative to people who feel they have been screwed by the global economy.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
70. Isolation, nationalism and nativism are not real alternatives.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:31 AM
Jun 2016

And I hate to say it, but those are the ideas that appealed to the Brexiters and the Trumpsters. The reality of how to live in an inevitably globalizing world is way more complicated than hating the other and passing punishing tariffs.

Skinner

(63,645 posts)
71. I completely agree with you.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:35 AM
Jun 2016

My point is that Hillary Clinton needs to offer something that appeals to people who feel they have been screwed by the global economy, and who are therefore receptive to the Trump/Brexit message of isolation, nationalism and nativism.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
72. I agree.. I just don't know what that is....
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:41 AM
Jun 2016

At least, I don't know what can be presented in simple slogans. I think there are ways to deal with this, but I guess I'm trying to say that a lot of folks feeling that way want a simple solution... with someone to blame. The real solutions don't lend themselves well to stuff like "Make America Great Again." It's more like "Participate in a complicated global economy while protecting worker rights and environment!" That doesn't fit on a hat!

 

w4rma

(31,700 posts)
126. You "don't know what that is"? Sanders's entire campaign is about what it is.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:52 PM
Jun 2016

Open your ears and listen.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
81. Agreed. Fortunately I think she is going to have a lot of help.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:09 AM
Jun 2016

Brexit, which was engineered primarily by the far-right UKIP party, which is a fascist party, is not going to make any kind of improvement in the lives of folks in the UK. I use the analogy that Brexit as a measure to help the lives of those who feel left behind by the global economy is like reacting to a fly landing on your forehead by smashing yourself in the forehead with a sledgehammer. There is a chance you might kill the fly, but there is a greater chance you wont and you will have the damage from the sledgehammer besides which is far worse than anything the fly might normally do.

As bad as UKIP is, they actually have some folks who have some policy ideas, as terrible as they are. Which makes them marginally better than Trump.

Hillary is going to have a lot of help by folks on the left and right who realize that they may disagree with Hillary on the issues but she is not going to be the disaster Trump would be. Sadly, the issues facing our economy in terms of the folks who feel left behind are not simple, can't be solved quickly and are certainly not going to be solved by blunt measures like Brexit or anything Trump has in mind.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
83. Getting out of the EU was about getting out of the experiment of free trade neoliberal economics
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:19 AM
Jun 2016

The EU took control away from individual countries and gave it to corporate backed politicians who thought austerity was a good thing.

Yes, some crazy right wingers also supported it but they tapped into the unfettered cheap labor undermining wages anger. People know unfettered immigration is a way to reduce wages. But the crazy right wingers turn it into racism.

But corporations love cheap labor and don't mind destroying the middle class and crashing economies to boot. If the EU was such a great thing, why did they suffer the crash and promote austerity as the solution?
.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
86. I doubt 99% of those voting know anything about neoliberal economics. This was about
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:37 AM
Jun 2016

two things.

1. UKIP promised that Brexit would free up a ton of money for things like additional healthcare expenditures. They have already admitted that this was not true
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/nigel-farage-admits-his-bold-brexit-claim-was-mistake

2. Isolationism - Folks were upset about immigration and were told all their problems were because of, as you put it, cheap labor elsewhere in Europe.

In other words, this entire event is a sad victory for extreme far right politics. Genuine Fascism, which is what UKIP is all about.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
110. You know the arguments I keep hearing about the EU vote
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:19 PM
Jun 2016

are also the arguments I hear about free trade agreements. Unfortunately we can't op out of those awful agreements.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
102. Sadly, it appears that people who felt screwed by the global economy voted to screw themselves.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:04 PM
Jun 2016

They just didn't realize it.

 

glennward

(989 posts)
69. She need not over react. That would be a big mistake also. And to those who think the status quo
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:25 AM
Jun 2016

is really really bad...wait until it isn't.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
76. Markets sliding all over the world...and Trump publically said he would have chosen to leave the EU
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:51 AM
Jun 2016

This decision affects Trump much more than Hillary.

You can go back to your corner now and strategize some more.

rateyes

(17,438 posts)
77. Snark noted. You are
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:58 AM
Jun 2016

looking at initial reaction from the markets. Yesterday the DOW rose over 200 pts. Right now it's down a little over 400. So, about 200 points down over 2 days. Let's see where it is a month from now.

Ok, now, back to my corner!

ALBliberal

(2,344 posts)
79. It's the Independent voting block that is mostly in play for Hillary
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:05 AM
Jun 2016

I believe she will easily have large support of Democrats. I believe they will come out in force to vote for her. Bernie Sanders garnered a lot of support from Independents. Hillary can win these voters over with a more populist message. The Brexit outcome backs this up. It's not just about beating Trump. We have a golden.opportunity to engage Independents, new voters and young voters. The possibilities are huge for Hillary to expand the breadth of our party in sheer numbers as well as flip house and Senate seats. I believe she will take every advantage of the opportunity.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
82. And in an article on MSM news, seems she just had another
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:17 AM
Jun 2016

Cut it out session with unnamed corporate CEOs. Nothing is going to change. I think Obama truly thought he could and wanted to, but he was inexperienced with the way of the DC Beltway.

But then he did not speak before The Financial Establishment. An old Molly Ivin's saying in her southern drawl and vernacular ..." You've gotta dance with them that brung you."

God, I miss her and Keith Olbermann.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
121. She had a meeting with "unamed corporae CEOs? Oh, noes!
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:13 PM
Jun 2016

Unnamed. I bet the source was also "unamed". Please

 

liberalnarb

(4,532 posts)
99. She was right. I don't see how that hurts her.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:56 PM
Jun 2016

Given that she was opposed to the thing that is pounding the stock market, I think it makes her look pretty good. Her opponent supported it, which means that something he supports is already destroying our economy and he isn't even in power yet.

Response to rateyes (Original post)

 

tonyt53

(5,737 posts)
104. No talk of austerity in the US. except by some in the GOP.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:08 PM
Jun 2016

A President can't be "anti-Wall Street", they have to be working for everyone equally. Easy to say anti-Wall Street, but a lot harder to actually do anything. Hillary has held many public gatherings in smaller more intimate groups - Main Street if there ever was. Most labor unions have been backing Hillary all along. Of her largest contributors are building trades unions. They know who will help them. A President can't wave a magic wand an jobs of any pay level can't just appear. Those will take time, but can get moving with investment in our infrastructure - a point she has been hitting on. She has stated that she is against the TPP after reading what was in the agreement. Bernie's playbook? She schooled Bernie and his playbook by about 3.5 million votes.

She can't fuck Wall Street and should not even try. But with better control and regulation she can even the playing field. About that surprise? it really isn't a surprise. Polls were showing a very close vote and wavering between stay and go.

If I were you and other Sanders supporters, I'd be out trying to get as many of you to vote for Hillary as possible.

SaschaHM

(2,897 posts)
112. Trumpism works in the UK because it has the demographics and political system for it.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:34 PM
Jun 2016

You can pound away at immigrants in the U.K and still win a referendum after completely losing their vote, something which a majority of them didn't have to begin with. You can't do that in the U.S. You can't do that with the electoral college. Donald Trump can bring out all the anti-establishment white people in South Carolina, but if he does it by pissing off AA, women, and hispanic voters in other more diverse states, he is going to be royally screwed. As to how she should run the race, sure she's going to adapt her message, but it would be a folly for any politician to run on a playbook that couldn't win in a primary.

And another thing about this is that the Brexit, largely thought to something analogous to Trumpism, won by a slim 51% in a 87% white country. The U.S. is 72% white (and 64% non-hispanic white). Those messages only work when the majority ethnic group is large enough and solidified enough, which is not the case in the U.S., that they can overcome the votes of the folks you piss off.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
122. She has been talking about jobs, jobs, higher wages
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:15 PM
Jun 2016

and more jobs, jobs, jobs.

Women's, LGBT and. POC votes are anti-establishment votes.

She's got this.

RandySF

(59,229 posts)
130. When John Major won the 1992 UK election
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:22 PM
Jun 2016

The Republicans said it spelled doom for Bill Clinton and tried to replicate the Tories' campaign. This Brexit vote was mostly a referendum on immigration.

Beacool

(30,251 posts)
135. No good news for Hillary? This is not about Hillary.
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:46 PM
Jun 2016

This is about the future of our country. If Hillary loses she will be just fine, thank you. It's the nation that will be screwed. I hope that the Brexit vote woke up those who are navel gazing and thinking whether they will or will not vote for Hillary.

And no, Warren shouldn't be her VP. She's far more valuable to Democrats in the Senate.

pansypoo53219

(20,996 posts)
136. indeed. it will NOT T be a cakewalk, even if RUMP is a troll. trolls are kinda popular to the
Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:09 PM
Jun 2016

MAJORITY of humans.

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