A thought experiment regarding pragmatism....

[ClarkJonathanKent]

Throughout this primary process, the vast majority of the Hillary supporters that I meet in person, and most of the ones I see online, say they are voting for Hillary due to "pragmatism." She is the only "realistic" choice. They often say they prefer Bernie's ideas better, but since he is an idealist, it makes more rational sense to vote for Hillary. I can appreciate a lot of these arguments.

But let's say Bernie doesn't get the nomination and he decides to run as a third choice, maybe with Jill Stein as his running mate. Given similar scenarios, most Hillary supporters say they will still vote for Hillary and that Bernie Sanders would probably be "responsible" for splitting the party vote and causing Trump to win. I've seen many different hypothetical scenarios discussed that involve Trump winning and Bernie getting the blame.

But again, let's say one of these scenarios starts to unfold and it becomes apparent that Bernie is going to stay in this thing until November. Wouldn't the "pragmatic" thing be for Hillary supporters to then switch over to Bernie? Because in these scenarios, Hillary can't win without a solid percentage of Bernie supporters. And if he intends to stay in it to the end, she will therefore have no chance to get these people to vote for her. It would be like playing chicken against a vehicle that has no steering wheel, it ISN"T going to get out of the way. The only sensible thing to do would be for you to get out of the way. But most Hillary supporters are saying they will not switch.

And I guess my point is, how is that pragmatic? Hillary supporters say that Bernie people are stubborn, but isn't it better to be stubborn due to hope and principle, rather than stubborn out of spite? Especially when that spite is being offered by the people claiming to be so "pragmatic" and "rational?"

[highprincipleswork]

1. I'd like to know what is so pragmatic in voting against that in which you really believe? In fact,

nothing could be less pragmatic. And the results of the Democratic Party's wayward shift to the Right over the past few decades, since the Clintons and the DLC started us running from the scary shadow of Ronald Reagan right into Neoliberal arms prove it.

We bear our own responsibility for creating the monster that is Trump. As we drift ever rightward, they feel empowered to just get crazier and crazier. And with our lack of standing up for what we truly believe, we lose war after war, battle after battle.

Do we have to totally lose our souls and wind up in the political version of Hell in order to get it?

[Henhouse]

2. Hillary has great ideas and can and will get things done....

[cherokeeprogressive]

5. Only if she has a majority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate.

[AgingAmerican]

13. By what means will she 'Get things done'?

Magically? By ill fated rotten deals with the GOP congress, like Sequestration?

[OKNancy]

3. I'll give you the ultimate in pragmatism and rationality

Bernie Sanders is not going to run as an Independent. He is also not going to be on the Green Party ticket with Stein.

After all is said and done, Sanders will stick to his word. He will work to defeat Trump. I sure hope you do too.

[NanceGreggs]

4. Your opening premise ...

... does not reflect real life.

"They often say they prefer Bernie's ideas better, but since he is an idealist, it makes more rational sense to vote for Hillary."

I have seen this meme floated and promoted by Bernie supporters. I don't know of any HRC supporters who ever expressed anything remotely like that.

You have made an assumption (a wrong one) that "pragmatism" is at the root of HRC's support. It's not. Ergo, your theory about Hill's supporters abandoning her for Bernie because it's the "pragmatic thing to do" falls apart.

"... Bernie doesn't get the nomination and he decides to run as a third choice, maybe with Jill Stein as his running mate."

Do you really envision millions of Democrats voting Third Party - especially with a known idiot like Jill Stein in the VP slot? That is beyond laughable.

Look, Bernie lost. He is NOT the Dem nominee, and that fact is NOT going to change.

[upaloopa]

6. Arguing pragmatism vs idealism is a waste of time if it is between

a pragmatist and an idealist. Both see the opposite view as unrealistic.

[AgingAmerican]

14. Sequestration was the result of 'pragmatism'

Any questions?

[upaloopa]

22. I don't need you to think for me. Any queations?

[Yavin4]

7. At least half, if not more than half, of Americans have repeatedly voted against Bernie's agenda

In state after state, left leaning agendas like Bernie's fail to get candidates elected to office. The rest of America is not like Vermont or Portland, Oregon or Austin, Texas or San Francisco, CA.

[AgingAmerican]

15. Cuz people don't want actual governance when they can have incremental half measures

...that never materialize, and screams for militaristic nationalism.

[Yavin4]

17. So, explain how Scott Walker won and won again on the recount

Half measures? The Dems in that state legislature left the state in order to stop a bill from being passed, and they tirelessly worked to recall Walker. Yet, Walker won.

How is that a half-measure? The people of Wisc. voted for Walker twice. Explain that to me.

[AgingAmerican]

18. Voter ID laws

[Yavin4]

19. Wrong. All that happened before their voter ID law

The answer is that the White people of Wisc. voted for him and against the unions in that state.

[AgingAmerican]

24. The voter ID law was passed in 2011

The recall was in 2012

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Walker#Voter_ID_law

[barrow-wight]

8. And here we have another shallow attempt at pushing third party.

The veils on these posts are getting thinner and thinner.

[Hortensis]

9. "Stubborn out of spite?" Huh?! You don't understand.

Hillary is the smarter, more balanced, more experienced, more talented, more competent, and more viable candidate who is by far more in tune with what Democratic Americans want. She also has a much more mainstream background, with, unlike Sanders, no titillating new issues to spark shocked interest.

As far as I am concerned, this primary is coming along as it should, delivering to the electorate someone who is both the choice of a solid majority our wide, diverse Democratic Party electorate and the one who will make a much better president. A big win-win for us.

Don't be buffaloed by a corporate-controlled media who also have to somehow keep us tuning in and reading day after day, instead of now and then just to check on progress. We are doing fine. The GOP is in the toilet.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Let's hypothesize Germany had a system likes ours in 1932

Let's hypothesize Germany had a system likes ours in 1932 and he was opposed by Hillary Clinton. Would it be responsible for a candidate to run to Hillary's left and split the center-left vote and elect Hitler?

Trump is our Hitler.

[ClarkJonathanKent]

11. DemocratSinceBirth.....

you are illustrating exactly the point of my post. Let's say Trump is Hitler, and Hillary is running against him, and Bernie is definitely staying in till the end. According to the polls, and in your mind, he is going to get enough votes to cause Hitler to win. Regardless of how responsible it is for him to run, he is running (in this scenario). Therefore, would you switch your vote to Bernie so that he wins rather than Trump, or would you vote for Hillary knowing it will cause Hitler to win? Wouldn't switching to Bernie be the more responsible thing for the VOTERS to do in this scenario?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. IMHO, no... The Democrat and the Republican start with a substantial advantage.

Mickey Mouse could run with a (D) or (R) after his name and he will start with 40% of the vote...


People can do what they want... I believe with all my heart a Trump presidency might be the end of the republic.

[Dem2]

16. lol

This scenario is so far-fetched that I can't answer it seriously.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. Lacking Clinton's negatives, Sanders has been the pragmatic, sensible choice since DAY 1 n/t

[ucrdem]

21. If Sanders runs 3rd party, Clinton wins. Here's why:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512016292

[tandem5]

23. Stein will be the nominee for the Green party it would only ever be Stein/Sanders in this

unrealistic, made up scenario.