2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCriminal Intent - That's what's missing and why no indictment will ensue.
One of the basics of criminal law is the concept of mens rea, which translates to "guilty mind" or "criminal intent." It's a fundamental part of indicting someone for a crime in our system of justice.
That guilty mind or criminal intent is missing in the SoS email thing. Even Hillary Clinton admits that she wishes she had handled her email in a different way, and has actually apologized. But, unless it can be proven that she had the intent to break an actual law, it's going to be impossible to indict or convict her for using that private server. Other Secretaries of State had used email accounts outside of the State Department's control, too. In fact, John Kerry is the first SoS who has not.
For whatever reason, probably for lack of familiarity with the State Department's email system and her constant traveling, she chose another method for sending and receiving email. Convenience was the primary reason, according to her own statements. In the course of conducting State Department business, some sensitive stuff got transmitted to her on that non-official email system. Later, some of it was classified after the fact. No doubt other mistakes occurred through using a makeshift email system with a server located in a private residence, too.
But, intent to commit a crime? I don't think so, and I'm sure such intent can't be proven to the degree that would cause the issuance of an indictment by a federal grand jury, the only body capable of issuing such an indictment. The FBI doesn't indict. Only federal grand juries can indict.
Will one even be called by the Attorney General? Probably not. Insufficient evidence. What will the FBI report and recommendation say? We don't know, and we don't even know when such a thing might be presented. Once it is, then it's in the hands of the Attorney General, who will have to decide whether to investigate further or call a grand jury.
Lack of mens rea is very likely to be more than enough reason for the Attorney General not to call a grand jury. That's what I expect to happen. No grand jury. No indictment. State Department policy has already been changed, and there aren't going to be any more private servers or non-official email accounts for Secretaries of State. That practice went on too long and was fraught with possible problems. So, a lesson was learned, but no indictment of Hillary Clinton is likely to be issued.
No mens rea.
pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)None of us know what the FBI will report. None of us know how wide their investigation has taken them. None of us know how much evidence they have obtained. We can all speculate every time a piece of news is released but in the end we just need to wait and see what happens.
Loudestlib
(980 posts)"A month later, the State Department sent a cable to all diplomatic and consular posts about the dangers of unsecured personal email accounts. Staffers were ordered to avoid conducting official Department business from your personal e-mail accounts. Who signed that cable? Hillary Clinton."
Karma13612
(4,552 posts)CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)MSNBC To the deniers... Watch THIS Video... It is not comforting to think that she may well be the Democratic Nominee...
Hillary really betrayed Andrea Mitchell... The entire context of this report was of a solemn nature... A Funeral so to speak...
Andrea Mitchell "I do not see this report as ...ANYTHING BUT... DEVASTATING!"
Chuck Todd "After this I don't think that she could get confirmed for Attorney General!"
Lots of FIBBING by Hillary here.. for more than a year!
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)Did you remember to put the same qualifier in your post?
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)That signature line appears on every post I write. I think that's pretty clearly stated.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)That's the idea though isn't it?
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I wrote expressing an opinion to be anything other than my opinion. Since I have zero to do with the FBI or the Attorney General's office, I can't post anything factual about either of them. So, I post my opinion, based on whatever I base it on.
I will not be adding a disclaimer to my posts. It's already there in my signature line. Whether that gets read or not is irrelevant.
I've not seen too many posts on DU with such a disclaimer, at least that are in the words of the poster. All posts here that are not simply quotations of something at a link are the poster's opinion, unless they state facts known to the poster.
For pete's sake!
Desert805
(392 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)in every post stating that the post is my opinion. Of course it is. I wrote it. Even when I post something from a link, I post my own words which state my opinion of that.
My post. My opinion. Always.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)where you castigated someone for not posting a disclaimer...since, as you say, anything somebody writes is automatically assumed to be their opinion. Or is it just that you are somehow special and your rules are just for others?
Desert805
(392 posts)Just offering some to you.
Carry on with your water carrying.
GreenPartyVoter
(72,378 posts)if this is the case for very many other folks, but just wanted to let you know that there is at least one DUer who can't see them.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)Whoever being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note or information relating to the national defense through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust or to be lost, stolen, abstracted or destroyed ...
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)kstewart33
(6,551 posts)The judgment of two broadcasters is meaningless.
Everyone's opinion at DU is an opinion. Yours is no more knowledgable than anyone else's.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)"Sorry, officer, but I didn't realize I was going 74." You still get a ticket and have to pay the fine. Intent applies more to crimes such as robbery, extortion, etc. Not only that, but lack of intent may result in a lesser charge, rather than a dismissal of all charges. If I kill someone, and I didn't mean to, they will drop the first degree murder charges, but I'll still stand trial for negligent homicide. But Clinton will probably slide by pleading incompetence.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)hootinholler
(26,449 posts)merbex
(3,123 posts)apparent around here.
RDANGELO
(3,433 posts)This still doesn't address the possibility that she is under investigation for obstruction of justice or dealings involving the Clinton Foundation. There have been leaks to that effect. Maybe they are true; maybe not.
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)The again the TRUST Issue!
MSNBC To the deniers... Watch THIS Video... It is not comforting to think that she may well be the Democratic Nominee...
Hillary really betrayed Andrea Mitchell... The entire context of this report was of a solemn nature... A Funeral so to speak...
Andrea Mitchell "I do not see this report as ...ANYTHING BUT... DEVASTATING!"
Chuck Todd "After this I don't think that she could get confirmed for Attorney General!"
Lots of FIBBING by Hillary here.. for more than a year!
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)Of course she intended to commit a crime... having a private server was a means to an end... any fool can see that
FOIA, it gives/gave her the ability to create hurdles to requests and examination...
Take the case to a grand jury, let the evidence stand on it's own and see which way this ends up
All this hysteric frantic arm waving by HRC supporters is hilarious, all this effort on this board alone shows there's blood in the water
Right now all they are trying to do is prevent it from gaining more media attention and traction in this primary cycle
It's only going to get worse in GE, she's going to give the prez to Trump... she's that feckless of a candidate against TRUMP... TRUMP... Any worthy candidate would be catapulting so far ahead of Trump it wouldn't, shouldn't be a contest
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)By the way, in national security cases...this is one...tje rules are slightly different. Oh I got that via a couple lawyers who work in such cases
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)But he does try.
This is why the Sidney Blumenthal contact among others
she had between the CGI and state that the FBI is looking into it and took over the investigation and there is talk about the Rico act. This is why the emails were destroyed.
I don't expect such power will be challenged of any consequences when it comes up the chain of command
but that is the real story why the FBI is looking into it.
The FBI report will be watered down but of no legal consequence however the electoral implications will be devastating. Too many higher up in the power structure have hitched their wagon to this ponzi scheme to back down............. bunker mentality will take over.
I was pre law and my brother was second in his class at the University of Texas Law school and then a judge
Intent has nothing to do with this
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)I would say an attempt to circumvent the law matters, and if there are any indictments of anyone, she is done.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)But people refuse to put their CDS aside.
It has to be not only criminal, but a felony. It is nothing at all like that -- it is policy. Basically an HR matter. That Powell and others also did.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)No law prohibits her use of a private email server, and the previous policy simply recommends against it. As the chief of the Department of State, she actually was the arbiter of that cabinet department's policies. People seem to forget that. There are laws about giving classified information to unauthorized recipients, of course, but even those are difficult to enforce when it comes to a Secretary of State, who speaks for the U. S. Government in affairs of state.
That, among other reasons, is why you don't see prosecutions of cabinet officers for their actions while serving in those offices. Cabinet officers have broad discretion about the operation of their departments. The precedent is not to prosecute such heads of departments for actions taken during their time in those positions.
If that were not the case, there could have been a number of prosecutions of such people from past administrations. None, however, have been prosecuted. I doubt an exception will be made in this case, either.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)that it would be more convenient to conduct official business on Facebook, and started posting state secrets on their Facebook wall (while carefully designating their Facebook page as "private," of course), would that SoS be immune from any consequences? Cabinet secretaries are not above the law (and yes, I realize that the entire Bush administration probably should be in Leavenworth but the reason they aren't has to do more with the political will of the subsequent administration than anything else), and as I pointed out in another post in this thread, quite a number of them have, in fact, been indicted and prosecuted.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)And mens rea is not always a required element of a crime; there are some crimes that are referred to as strict liability crimes - in other words, whether or not you meant to do it, it's still a crime. Drunk driving and statutory rape are examples of this. Most more serious crimes are called specific intent crimes, however.
Where mens rea or specific intent gets tricky is proving what the defendant intended. If a statute says it's illegal for someone knowingly to use an unsecured email system, it doesn't matter that they didn't intend to use it for improper purposes. The crime, if it is one, would simply be the intentional use of an unsecured email system. One statute that could be involved here is 18 USC § 793(h), which provides that a crime has been committed when someone who has possession or control of classified information:
In other words, under this statute the specific intent to mishandle the information in not necessary; only gross negligence is required. Then the question is whether using an unsecured private server and an unsecured PDA device after being told not to constitutes gross negligence. That's for the government's lawyers to decide (assuming they would even be allowed to prosecute Herself). I'm retired from that line of work and I never liked criminal law much anyhow, but I do remember that the whole issue of mens rea is a very sticky wicket and not nearly as simple as you make it sound.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)things get very sticky, indeed. They are acting on behalf of the President of the United States. I can think of several situations where cabinet department heads did things that were blatantly illegal, and with intent. I'm sure most of us can. Yet, no indictments or prosecutions were done in those cases, either.
It's my opinion, based on a number of factors, not just this one, that no indictment will be issued and no prosecution undertaken. I simply don't think such things will occur for many reasons. It would be unprecedented.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Which Secretary of State has ever been indicted?
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)To name a few: Caspar Weinberger, Secretary of Defense, was pardoned before trial (Iran-Contra); Elliot Abrams, Deputy National Security Advisor, convicted and later pardoned; John Poindexter, National Security Advisor was also prosecuted. Then there was James Watt, Secretary of the Interior, who was convicted of bid-rigging. Attorney General John Mitchell was convicted of perjury (Watergate). Secretary of Commerce Maurice Stans was convicted of campaign act violations. Secretary of Agriculture Earl Butz pleaded guilty to tax evasion. U.S. Treasurer Catalina Villalpando was sent to prison for tax evasion and obstruction of justice.
No Secretaries of State that I know of, but it's flat-out incorrect to say that cabinet secretaries have broad discretion to commit acts that may be criminal. Secretaries of Defense and Attorneys General are as important as Secretaries of State and a number of them have been prosecuted for various crimes.
That said, I very much doubt that Herself will be prosecuted even if they find a whole steaming plateful of mens rea. Obama's DoJ wouldn't even slap Herself on the wrist.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Criminal intent.
There's basically two ways a civilian can face charges regarding classified information.
One is the "criminal intent" route, where they sell classified or hand it over to a foreign government.
The second is the "negligence" route, where the person handling the classified showed a great deal of negligence that could have caused the information to be compromised.
Your OP does an excellent job laying out how Clinton could be charged due to negligence.
napi21
(45,806 posts)"WHERE'S THE HARM?" Who or what was injured by her actions? No harm, no crime!
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)even if no actual harm results. If I drive drunk I can be convicted of DUI even if I don't cause the slightest harm - people have been convicted of DUI when found passed out drunk in their cars. Terroristic threats are a crime even if nobody is injured. The statute defines the crime, and if the statute doesn't require harm to have occurred but all the elements of the crime are present, you're guilty.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)even if you did not intend to cause harm and even if you in fact did not cause harm, if your act met the elements of the statutory offense charged. Intent and harm are two different things. You can intend to commit the act that constitutes the crime without intending to cause harm. I practiced law for 17 years and I have done a little criminal defense work in my distant past, and I think I know whereof I speak.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)crime, akin to drunk driving or statutory rape. Yet you've offered no evidence that would indicate that she is being pursued under a strict liability statute.
FYI.....during my practice, I actually did win acquittal for a person accused of stat rape, strict liability be damned.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)I'm simply trying to sort out for the OP (who seems to be confused by what mens rea really is) what is meant by strict liability statutes vs. specific intent statutes. I'm not accusing her of one or the other or of anything in particular. I don't know what she did or what she intended to do. And I don't think she will be indicted.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)brush
(53,789 posts)government"
Hey, that sounds like Snowden.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)There's a gap in the civilian espionage laws where leaking classified to the public in general isn't a crime. You have to sell it, or directly give it to a foreign agent, or be negligent with it. Intentionally leaking it to the public isn't one of those.
That's why Ellsberg could not be charged in the Pentagon Papers case. He hadn't actually broken the law. Sure, the government made his life hell for a while, and would have done the same to Snowden, but the government would have run into the same problem with charging Snowden.
But then Snowden fled, and "accepted something of value" from Russia - food and shelter. That lets the government argue he sold the information, and thus can be charged.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)The code books he was charged with taking away were never stolen, and never shown to anyone without a security clearance - his girlfriend had one.
Just what do you imagine the threshold for "gross negligence" is here?
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)The general was not charges under any gross negligence theory
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)negligence. It's a much harder thing to prove.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)How 'bout sending out a cable to everyone at state telling them to not use private email for State business due to the danger of being hacked, while using private email for State business?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)with reckless disregard. It very very hard to prove.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)'Cause there was a whole hell of a lot of negligence around Clinton's server.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)to making a case for gross negligence with Hillary. That's my legal opinion based on 26 years as an attorney.
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Oh, you didn't mean to kill that guy? Carry on then.
Martin Eden
(12,870 posts)... and has actually apologized."
Of course she wishes this issue wasn't jeopardizing her chances to become president. What else can she do or say at this point?
One of the things she could have done once it became an issue was to refrain from lying about it.
No doubt she regrets that too now.
At the very least, if no criminality is involved, poor judgment and lying are not qualities that earn votes.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)is also not reason for an indictment. It is your opinion only. Just as my post is my opinion. That's what we trade in on DU: opinions.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)yet, Hillary could get indicted for made up scenarios.
Martin Eden
(12,870 posts)I think this whole thing is somewhat overblown, but I also think (my opinion, mind you) she has shown very poor judgment and this could possibly throw the election to Trump.
That she lied about it has pretty much crossed over from opinion to fact.
Melissa G
(10,170 posts)Here is another one from a stronger, more educated source:
http://lawnewz.com/politics/hillary-clintons-emails-now-might-finally-take-her-down/
More to the point, though, you fear that the most likely Democrat nominee, having just been seriously wounded by this weeks IG report, is manifestly vulnerable to a much greater wound in the form of a criminal indictment for misconduct that far transcends what the IG report dealt with. Specifically, as a sophisticated observer, you are aware that Former Secretary Clintons intent (known in criminal law as mens rea), or lack of same, is not what matters in this case. Rather, the applicable legal standard is a mere gross negligence one, as specified in the standard national security non-disclosure agreement that she signed and its underlying criminal statutes.
And when you marry that to the fact that (among other things) her admitted failure to use the State Departments special classified email system for classified (or potentially classified) information constituted a clear violation of a criminal prohibition, you start worrying big-time. And this is especially so given that Ms. Clinton did not just violate such laws inadvertently or even only occasionally she did so systemically. In other words, her very email scheme itself appears to have been a walking violation of criminal law, one with the mens rea prosecution standard readily met.
It also is especially so given that the ongoing investigation of Ms. Clintons misconduct is being conducted by the FBI, under the leadership of FBI Director James Comey. Those of us who worked under him when he was the deputy attorney general during the George W. Bush Administration know him to be an exceptional man of utmost integrity, one who can be counted on to recommend a criminal prosecution when the facts and the law of a case warrant it, regardless of political circumstances. Given that the facts and law are so clear in Ms. Clintons case, it is difficult to imagine her not being indicted, unless Jim Comeys expected recommendation for that is abruptly overruled at Main Justice (i.e., by Criminal Division Assistant Attorney General Leslie Caldwell, by Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates, or by Attorney General Loretta Lynch) or at the White House by President Obama (who customarily does not intervene in such things and would do so here either secretly or at no small political peril).
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)Jarqui
(10,126 posts)the State Department - because the State Department itself seemed to be in on protecting Hillary from the outset. I was a little surprised. He basically underscored that Hillary lied and she's suffering from a poor media reaction (from her perspective) to the report.
For the issue in this thread as to whether she will be indicted for a crime, the really interesting report from an Inspector General would be the next one: the IG for the Intelligence Community.
The IG for the State Department seems to suggest (from the media coverage - I have not read his report word for word) that she broke FOIA or Records laws and regulations but that breaking those laws/regulations doesn't have much consequence. The civil cases getting depositions from now until sometime this summer will further assess that.
I think the IG for the Intelligence Community has to be harsher. If not, how can they ever discipline another Federal employee for being careless with classified information?
Ultimately, the FBI and Justice department will decide the issue (unless the Administration weighs in) but our guesses as to whether she'll be indicted or not will probably be better after the IG for the Intelligence Community reports.
I have a feeling that day is going to be considerably tougher on her campaign and the support she's been getting from the super delegates. Time will tell soon enough.
JudyM
(29,251 posts)acts that she committed. Hence the expression "ignorance of the law is no excuse"...
It's quaint that you think that despite a career as both a lawyer, a president's wife and a politician, she somehow would not have known exactly what she was doing, and set up a system for doing it which included (just as one small practical illustration) hiring Pagliano into the State dept. If that were actually above board she would have ensured he disclosed his dual role up front, because any lawyer would be tuned in to that apparent conflict of interest. That right there is a smoking gun about her intent.
But then, anyway, intent is not needed to convict her for some of what she has done, as is amply described for you by others above.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)You need to study before you teach.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Not this dude. Always teaching. Empty classroom.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Unless you think she's not a "reasonable" person.
Any reasonable person - especially those with the training she would have received regarding data security - would have known that a private email server kept in your basement could never be as protected as well as SIPRnet and JWICS.
But, in this case, it's called "strict liability:" you either mishandled national defense data or you didn't.
Ask John Kiriakou or Thomas Drake if you don't believe me.
But while intent might be relevant in terms of punishment, it does not change the fact that as a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, then Senator Clinton had clearances for classified information for years before becoming Secretary of State. She knew the rules and yet as Secretary she handled classified information carelessly after a deliberate decision to circumvent normal procedures for its safeguarding, thus making it vulnerable to foreign intelligence, as well as to criminal hackers.
Anyone who has ever handled classified material knows that there are a number of things that you do not do. You do not take it home with you, you do not copy it and share it with anyone who does not have a clearance and a need-to-know, you do not strip off the classification marks and treat it as unclassified, and you do not transfer it to another email account that is not protected by a government server.
SNIP
So the question is not whether Secretary Clinton broke the law. She did. If the laws are to be equally applied, she should face the same kind of consequences as others who have been found, often on the basis of much less convincing evidence, guilty of similar behavior.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/05/24/intel-vets-urge-fast-report-clintons-emails
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)There are laws that make it illegal for laypersons to practice law and your analysis shows that these laws are necessary. You can not have a criminal violation without some form of intent. Here is a very simplistic explanation that even a layperson might be able to understand http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/mens-rea-a-defendant-s-mental-state.html
Most crimes require what attorneys refer to as "mens rea", which is simply Latin for a "guilty mind". In other words, what a defendant was thinking and what the defendant intended when the crime was committed matters. Mens rea allows the criminal justice system to differentiate between someone who did not mean to commit a crime and someone who intentionally set out to commit a crime.
To give an example, imagine two drivers who end up hitting and killing a pedestrian. Driver 1 never saw the person until it was too late, tried his or her best to brake, but could do nothing to stop the accident and in fact ended up killing the pedestrian. Driver 1 is still liable, but likely only in civil court for monetary damages.
Driver 2, on the other hand, had been out looking for the pedestrian and upon seeing him, steered towards him, hit the gas pedal and slammed into him, killing him instantly. Driver 2 is probably criminally liable because he intended to kill the pedestrian, or at least he intended to cause serious bodily harm. Even though the pedestrian is killed in both scenarios (the outcome is the same), the intent of both drivers was very different and their punishments will be substantially different as a result.
Careless versus Criminal
Carelessness is generally referred to as "negligence" in legal terminology, and generally results in only civil, not criminal, liability. However, at some point general carelessness turns into something more culpable, and some criminal statutes have heightened negligence standards such as criminal or reckless negligence. For example, it may be simple negligence to leave items out on your sidewalk that cause a neighbor to fall and hurt themselves. It may be more than simple negligence, however, if you left out a chainsaw, some knives and flammable material on your sidewalk, resulting in your neighbor's serious injury.
Intentional versus Unintentional
Intentional harmful behavior is often criminal, but unintentional harmful behavior comes in two basic forms. The first is "mistake in fact" and the second is "mistake of law".
Mistake in fact means that, although your behavior fit the definition of a crime in an objective sense - you sold illegal drugs for instance - you were unaware that what you were selling was in fact an illegal drug. For example, if you gave someone a bag full of white powder in return for some money and honestly thought it was baking soda, then you are mistaken as to a fact that is critical to the crime. As a result, you likely lack the necessary mens rea or mental intent necessary under a drug law, because you never intended to sell an illegal drug, you intended to sell baking soda (note that almost no one will believe you honestly thought baking soda could be sold for that much money).
Mistake of law however, will almost never save you from criminal liability. Almost everyone is familiar with the phrase that "ignorance of the law is no excuse", and that's exactly how the law sees it. Perhaps in the above example, you did know that what you were selling was cocaine, but you honestly thought that it was legal to do so. It doesn't matter. It may seem slightly unfair that the person who was essentially dumb enough to believe that the white powder was baking soda gets off, but the well intentioned person who honestly thought it was legal to sell cocaine doesn't get off. The justification for having no tolerance for ignorance of the law is that allowing ignorance of the law as a defense would discourage people from learning the law and seriously undermine the effectiveness of the legal system.
- See more at: http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/mens-rea-a-defendant-s-mental-state.html#sthash.OLHaBt76.dpuf
This not an area for strict liability. For example the Petraeaus case involved a ton of proof of actual intent to release material that the general knew was classified.
Thank you for the amusement.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)1) She willingly and knowingly did a whole bunch of stupid things she didn't want to get caught doing...thus potential legal jeopardy.
2) Our brilliant and highly capable professional is incompetent, ignorant and professionally unprepared for public service.
If it were me, probably I'd plead ignorance over legal malfeasance.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Gothmog
(145,321 posts)Intent is an element of these offenses There is no intent here http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-clinton-emails-legal-20150908-story.html
Two former CIA directors ran afoul of that law for moving classified information to an unauthorized location. John M. Deutch faced a possible criminal charge in 2000 for keeping classified information on his home computer, and former CIA Director Gen. David H. Petraeus agreed to plead guilty in April and pay a $100,000 fine for having given several notebooks containing highly classified information to a woman who was writing his biography.
But unlike in Clinton's case, Deutch and Petraeus admitted they knew they had secret information that should have been kept secure. So far all of the Clinton emails in question were not marked as classified at the time she sent or received them, and only later were designated as classified.
Anne Tompkins, a former U.S. attorney in North Carolina who prosecuted Petraeus, disagreed with Mukasey's assessment that the former secretary of State could be charged with mishandling classified information. "Petraeus knowingly engaged in unlawful conduct," she wrote in a USA Today opinion piece last week, but Clinton said she did not believe she had sent or received classified information by email.
In late July, two inspectors general both Obama appointees said they were troubled to learn that classified information that "should have been marked and handled at the SECRET level" had been on Clinton's email server and had been publicly released this year.
"This classified information should never have been transmitted via an unclassified personal system," they said. They referred the matter to intelligence agencies and to the FBI, but added it was not "a criminal referral."
Stewart Baker, who served as top national security lawyer under Presidents Clinton and George W. Bush, said it does not appear based on what is known now that Hillary Clinton committed a crime when she used a private email server.
"It was a bad idea, a serious lapse in judgment, but that's not the same as saying it leads to criminal liability," he said. On the other hand, the continuing inquiries could turn up damaging evidence, he said, including the possibility that foreign governments tapped into her emails.
Laypersons amuse me when they ignore concepts like mens rea and culpable mental state
morningfog
(18,115 posts)There is evidence that she, or someone on her behalf, destroyed federal records. That, too, is a felony.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)Here are some facts for the silly conservatives to ignore https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-hillary-clinton-is-unlikely-to-be-indicted-over-her-private-email-server/2016/03/08/341c3786-e557-11e5-b0fd-073d5930a7b7_story.html
Could a clever law student fit the fact pattern into a criminal violation? Sure. Would a responsible federal prosecutor pursue it? Hardly absent new evidence, based on my conversations with experts in such prosecutions.
There are two main statutory hooks. Title 18, Section 1924, a misdemeanor, makes it a crime for a government employee to knowingly remove classified information without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location.
The State Department released 52,000 pages of Hillary Clintons emails as part of a court-ordered process. Here's what else we learned from the publicly released emails. (Monica Akhtar/The Washington Post)
Prosecutors used this provision in securing a guilty plea from former CIA director David H. Petraeus, who was sentenced to probation and fined $100,000. But there are key differences between Petraeus and Clinton.
Petraeus clearly knew the material he provided to Paula Broadwell was classified and that she was not authorized to view it. Highly classified .?.?. code word stuff in there, he told her. He lied to FBI agents, the kind of behavior that tends to inflame prosecutors.
In Clintons case, by contrast, there is no clear evidence that Clinton knew (or even should have known) that the material in her emails was classified. Second, it is debatable whether her use of the private server constituted removal or retention of material. Finally, the aggravating circumstance of false statements to federal agents is, as far as we know, absent.....
The argument here would be that Clinton engaged in such gross negligence by transferring information she knew or should have known was classified from its proper place onto her private server, or by sharing it with someone not authorized to receive it. Yet, as the Supreme Court has said, gross negligence is a nebulous term. Especially in the criminal context, it would seem to require conduct more like throwing classified materials into a Dumpster than putting them on a private server that presumably had security protections.
My point here isnt to praise Clintons conduct. She shouldnt have been using the private server for official business in the first place. Its certainly possible she was cavalier about discussing classified material on it; that would be disturbing but she wouldnt be alone, especially given rampant over-classification.
The handling of the emails is an entirely legitimate subject for FBI investigation. Thats a far cry from an indictable offense.
Ruth Marcus is hardly a Clinton supporter and these facts are consistent with the analysis posted elsewhere on this board that are not from Fox
morningfog
(18,115 posts)First that article was dated March 8, and premised its analysis on "no new formation."
It's now nearly June and there is new information. The new information, the OIG report, provides evidence consistent with Marcus' analysis of the security statutes. And I fully agree that without more than has publicly been disclosed there is no criminal liability.
The OIG report raised new questions on the preservation and destruction of federal public records. The OIG made clear, in black and white, that Hillary and her staff did not comply with the record retention laws. That is, Hillary and her staff violated the federal record preservation laws. Since these are administrative laws (they are laws, not "rule" or "policies" , there is not criminal liability on the practice of preserving the records.
However, the OIG report left open the question of whether any federal records were not only not properly preserved, but additionally, whether any were destroyed. The OIG report cites 4 emails to or from Hillary which Hillary did not produce and provide to State. In other words, it appears that those four (and there may be others) were intentionally destroyed after Hillary self reviewed and marked personal even though they were clearly business and subject to federal record retention law. There is a felony to destroy federal records.
Having said all that, I still don't expect her to be indicted. But the FBI has assuredly answered the questions raised by the OIG as well as others and it is certainly possible, with what we know at this point, that someone may be facing criminal liability.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)Here are some facts for you to ignore https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/05/06/hillary-clinton-is-going-to-be-exonerated-on-the-email-controversy-it-wont-matter/
Prosecutors and FBI agents investigating Hillary Clintons use of a personal email server have so far found scant evidence that the leading Democratic presidential candidate intended to break classification rules, though they are still probing the case aggressively with an eye on interviewing Clinton herself, according to U.S. officials familiar with the matter.
FBI agents on the case have been joined by federal prosecutors from the same office that successfully prosecuted 9/11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui and who would handle any Edward Snowden case, should he ever return to the country, according to the U.S. officials familiar with the matter. And in recent weeks, prosecutors from the U.S. Attorneys Office in the Eastern District of Virginia and their FBI counterparts have been interviewing top Clinton aides as they seek to bring the case to a close.
That point about her intending to break classification rules is important, because in order to have broken the law, it isnt enough for Clinton to have had classified information in a place where it was possible for it to be hacked. She would have had to intentionally given classified information to someone without authorization to have it, like David Petraeus did when he showed classified documents to his mistress (and then lied to the FBI about it, by the way). Despite the enormous manpower and time the Justice Department has devoted to this case, there has never been even a suggestion, let alone any evidence, that Clinton did any such thing.
So far no one has found evidence of intent.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and character.
Wishing that classified data was leaked?
Wishing that someone who's probably innocent turned out to be guilty?
Wishing that the will of Democratic voters was overthrown, forcing acceptance of a losing candidate by default?
All highly immoral.
Rattlesnake Chaser
(23 posts)This is about passing SENSITIVE/CLASSIFIED materials to those who did not have the clearance to it.
That is the issue at hand, not some email.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)The e-mails here were not marked classified at the time they were sent and so you have to prove that Clinton had actual knowledge. Given that the complained about e-mails were discussion articles in the NYT about drones, that will be impossible to prove. The OP fails to mention that these so-called classified e-mails were summaries of articles in the NYT about drones and were in the public domain http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/02/yep-top-secret-emails-were-all-about-drones
Some of the nations intelligence agencies raised alarms last spring as the State Department began releasing emails from Hillary Clintons private server, saying that a number of the messages contained information that should be classified top secret.
The diplomats saw things differently and pushed back at the spies. In the months since, a battle has played out between the State Department and the intelligence agencies.
....Several officials said that at least one of the emails contained oblique references to C.I.A. operatives. One of the messages has been given a designation of HCS-O indicating that the information was derived from human intelligence sources...The government officials said that discussions in an email thread about a New York Times article the officials did not say which article contained sensitive information about the intelligence surrounding the C.I.A.s drone activities, particularly in Pakistan.
The whole piece is worth reading for the details, but the bottom line is pretty simple: there's no there there. At most, there's a minuscule amount of slightly questionable reporting that was sent via emaila common practice since pretty much forever. Mostly, though, it seems to be a case of the CIA trying to bully State and win some kind of obscure pissing contest over whether they're sufficiently careful with the nation's secrets.
It is not against the law to read and talk about articles in NYT.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)TeddyR
(2,493 posts)The State Department IG report establishes that fact. She MAY have committed a crime, but that isn't particularly relevant - the undisputed fact is that Hills knowingly violated SD rules because she wanted to protect her private emails from production. This "the rules don't apply to me" attitude is enough to disqualify her from running the country (not to mention the fact that it exposed confidential/secret/top secret info to hacking). Unfortunately, I'll probably be voting for Hills in November because she'll be the nominee and is a much lesser evil than Trump.
I want to be clear - I'm going to vote for Hills in November if she's the nominee but not because I like her; I don't, nor do something like 60% of the American public. Let that sink in - 6 in 10 Americans dislike Hillary Clinton, yet she's the best candidate the Dems could come up with? I think she's the ultimate politician who will change her policy positions at the drop of a dime, she's not trustworthy, and ultimately is most concerned about what benefits Hillary. That said, she's certainly not crazy/cuckoo like Trump, so she gets my vote by default. It is a shame that Democrats are left with this type of choice, and the entire party leadership should engage in some serious soul-searching after the election ends.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)She was in charge of the rules. The Boss. The Big Kahuna. Hello...
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)They can set procedures and policies for their departments but those procedures and policies can't violate federal statutes. She was not the boss in respect of deciding how to handle classified material in accordance with federal statutes, and if it is determined that she violated any statutes she can't avoid prosecution by claiming she was the Big Boss who made the rules.
She won't be prosecuted because she's Hillary, regardless.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)The Intelligence Community makes the final decision on classified material and the handling of sensitive national security data - not the State Department alone.
The IC is made up of security and intelligence officials from State, along with Defense, the NSA, Air Force, Army, Marine, Naval and Coast Guard Intelligence, the CIA, Defense Intelligence, Energy, DHS, Treasury, the DEA, the FBI, the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency and the National Reconnaissance Office.
She was only the "big kahuna" in one of those offices.
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)Each Department is a fiefdom and the Secretary can arbitrarily make law and/or violate laws and rules with impunity simply because they are "the Big Kahuna"?
Sweet baby Jesus...
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)she started out trying to help take out Nixon, and her own Nixonian paranoia is now on the verge of taking her out... The 18 minute tape gap vs 30k missing emails...
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)it probably should have gone "isn't it a bummer..."
Just sayin'...
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...makes an ass out of you and umption.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)don't belong there, for sure.
TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)Yet another Google expert! You'll have to excuse me if I wait for the final word from the FBI rather than relying upon your brilliance.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)that criminal intent does not matter for issues of national security. Team Hindenburg is so cute!
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)Intent is indeed necessary and without good evidence of intent there will be no indictment. Read posts 88 and 90 or have someone read these posts and explain them to you. There is no strict liability in this area of the law. It takes intent. Click on the link to the Petraeaus charging document and read the facts used to show that there was specific intent to disclose confidential information
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)not what a bunch of really nasty political partisans want it to be in order to railroad a candidate off the ballot. Rove has nothing on some of those here, except power, knowledge, and the competence of years of experience in dirty politics, of course.
Where was all this year-long bernista outrage over Petraeus, who very much had intent and also lied to the FBI in an attempt to hide his genuine crimes, btw? Whole different thing from an extremely busy woman who mostly just didn't want to give up her Blackberry and instructed the tech guys to make it work.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)kinda' reminds me of this
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/reagan-iran-contra/
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)And the laws surrounding them fall into a much different category. Criminal intent need not be proven, just the fact that information was compromised and (and I can not stress this part enough) MAY HAVE (no actual proof that it actually did) compromised national security. Nor need it be intentional.
It's likely she will not be indicted, but it's not necessarily true that if she did mishandle information that they couldn't - even if there was no intent.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)Here are some facts for the Sanders supporters to ignore or not be able to understand https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/04/11/republicans-know-hillary-clinton-is-not-going-to-be-indicted-they-just-cant-say-so/
The relatively few cases that drew prosecution almost always involved a deliberate intent to violate classification rules, as well as some add-on element: An FBI agent who took home highly sensitive agency records while having an affair with a Chinese agent; a Boeing engineer who brought home 2000 classified documents and whose travel to Israel raised suspicions; a National Security Agency official who removed boxes of classified documents and also lied on a job application form.
.......But if youre a Republican pundit, you know that the idea of Hillary Clinton being led away in handcuffs is just too tantalizing for your audience to resist. And so when the Fox News Sunday panel (consisting of two conservative Republicans and two objective reporters, which is their idea of balance) had the chance to weigh in, the conservatives Karl Rove and The Posts George Will expressed the proper degree of faux outrage at Obama. Whats most interesting about their comments (heres the transcript) is that neither one of them even tried to make a case that Clinton should be indicted. Instead, they both brought up former IRS official Lois Lerner, to argue that the Obama Justice Department engages in cover-ups of criminal behavior. They implied, without saying outright, that the Justice Department would never issue indictments that would damage Democrats (such as Hillary Clinton).
For the most part, the Clinton email story has been a disappointment to Republicans. They were desperately hoping that the emails would reveal some kind of ghastly malfeasance on Clintons part, some smoking gun that would make all Americans realize that she should never be elected president. When that turned out not to be the case, they pinned their hopes on the idea that she would just have to be charged with a crime eventually. I have no doubt that people like Will and Rove now understand that that isnt going to happen either.
But having gone this far, they need to keep up appearances, and they also know that just talking about her emails serves to convince people that something scandalous must have happened. So they are laying the groundwork to argue, if and when she doesnt get indicted, that it must only be because Barack Obamas corrupt administration quashed the investigation and hid the truth from the public.
And down where the conservative rank and file get their information the talk radio rants, the right-wing blogs, the breathless chain emails these two contradictory ideas are both widely circulated. Clinton is about to be indicted, and Clinton wont be indicted because the fix is in. The assumption in either case is that of course she committed crimes, even if no one can say exactly what they were. Because shes Hillary Clinton, right? What more do you need to know?
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Ash_F
(5,861 posts)I don't know what statutes they might be looking at, but if intent is not written in there then it doesn't matter. It could be an argument made by the defense during the sentencing phase but not relevant to guilt and innocence.
Also your presumed reasons for her motives may not be the truth. I do think that is why she did it.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)You have no idea what you're talking about.
trudyco
(1,258 posts)and gross negligence is the difference between being charged as a traitor and possibly get the death penalty versus just getting a felony.
Only the Hillary bots are trying to say it's a difference between guilt and innocence. Everybody else is saying it's a difference in sentencing.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)You need intent to release national security materials First, Petraeus' binders were marked classified and Petraeus knew that the material was classified. This is from the document issued connection with his plea deal https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/03/petraeus-factual-basis.pdf
Between in or about August 2011 and on or about April 5, 2013, defendant DAVID HOWELL PETRAEUS, being an employee of the United States, and by virtue of his employment, became possessed of documents and materials containing classified information of the United States, and did unlawfully and knowingly remove such documents and materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents and materials at unauthorized locations, aware that these locations were unauthorized for the storage and retention of such classified documents and materials;
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1924
This document is interesting reading and turns in large part on Petraeus' knowledge and intent issue despite the fact that he signed multiple NDAs. There are no strict liability laws where one can commit a crime without mens rea or culpable mental intent. In this case, the general had that intent and still only got a probated sentence. The e-mails in question were not marked as top secret and under the law, the government will have an impossible burden of showing that Sec. Clinton knew that the material was top secret.
Here is a good explanation of the law that is written for laypersons by the Congressional Research Service https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/R41404.pdf
18 U.S.C. Section 1924 prohibits the unauthorized removal of classified material by government employees, contractors, and consultants who come into possession of the material by virtue of their employment by the government. The provision imposes a fine of up to $1,000 and a prison term up to one year for offenders who knowingly remove material classified pursuant to government regulations concerning the national defense or foreign relations of the United States, with the intent of retaining the materials at an unauthorized location....
In light of the foregoing, it seems that there is ample statutory authority for prosecuting individuals who elicit or disseminate many of the documents at issue, as long as the intent element can be satisfied and potential damage to national security can be demonstrated.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)been banned by Obama - as an adviser re Libya (also representing clients with interests in a post-war Libya), being paid through her Foundation, and whose completely wrong 'intelligence' she used (with no ability for scrutiny) to persuade Obama to intervene in a sovereign nation on the '7 countries in 5 years' hit list and help cause that horror, as well as all of the resulting suffering for millions since?
The IS and Boko Haram freaks who were let lose to fill the vacuums in Iraq and Libya created have burned people alive - among so many other atrocities. Is that nothing? Without Blumenthal's 'info', an ambivalent Obama may not have been pushed over the line for that 51-49 vote. Clinton told Blumenthal to 'keep em coming'. Another email celebrated getting Obama onboard as an early Christmas present!
Barack Obama says Libya was 'worst mistake' of his presidency.
Meanwhile, millions are either dead, maimed physically and mentally, orphaned, dying at sea, refugees in dangerous refugee camps where women (who'd previously been allowed many, many freedoms now denied by the fundamentalists now running those countries) and children are kidnapped and raped and murdered.
And check out this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=7857478
leveymg
(36,418 posts)that her personal Blackberry was unsecure and she should stop using it. Instead, she hooked it up to a private server and proceeded to post 104 classified messages across that system she knew was insecure. She also exercised gross negligence by destroying classified messages after being instructed to turn them over. That's a separate felony. Then there was herv failure to report the unauthorized possession and transmission of classified materials by others. After Blumenthal told her the stuff he was sending her was classified she infamously emailed him bsck, "That's a keeper, keep it coming" A third type of felony offense that doesn't require criminal intent just a failure to report a crime.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)Keep up the good work. Your posts show why it is illegal for laypersons to attempt to practice law.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Gothmog
(145,321 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)That's what this all boils down to. People clinging to right wing conspiracies in order to hold out hope the will of the people can still be overturned.
rickford66
(5,524 posts)Bob41213
(491 posts)HRC: "If not classified or otherwise inappropriate, can you send to the NYTimes reporters who interviewed me today?"
https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/9821
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)of criminalization of acts that do not have "guilty mind" or "criminal intent".
Killing someone while impaired while driving can garner manslaughter charges and incarceration. Hell, just accidentally mishandling your records according to Bill Clinton's 1996 HIPAA laws can garner criminal charges. In neither instance, is there an ounce of "intent" to harm.
So, I don't know. Sometimes you make good posts but unless you are a lawyer with the appropriate background, I think you might want to confer with one. Your premise seems off.
larkrake
(1,674 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)I am thoroughly, thoroughly disappointed by this primary season