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MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:39 AM May 2016

Criminal Intent - That's what's missing and why no indictment will ensue.

One of the basics of criminal law is the concept of mens rea, which translates to "guilty mind" or "criminal intent." It's a fundamental part of indicting someone for a crime in our system of justice.

That guilty mind or criminal intent is missing in the SoS email thing. Even Hillary Clinton admits that she wishes she had handled her email in a different way, and has actually apologized. But, unless it can be proven that she had the intent to break an actual law, it's going to be impossible to indict or convict her for using that private server. Other Secretaries of State had used email accounts outside of the State Department's control, too. In fact, John Kerry is the first SoS who has not.

For whatever reason, probably for lack of familiarity with the State Department's email system and her constant traveling, she chose another method for sending and receiving email. Convenience was the primary reason, according to her own statements. In the course of conducting State Department business, some sensitive stuff got transmitted to her on that non-official email system. Later, some of it was classified after the fact. No doubt other mistakes occurred through using a makeshift email system with a server located in a private residence, too.

But, intent to commit a crime? I don't think so, and I'm sure such intent can't be proven to the degree that would cause the issuance of an indictment by a federal grand jury, the only body capable of issuing such an indictment. The FBI doesn't indict. Only federal grand juries can indict.

Will one even be called by the Attorney General? Probably not. Insufficient evidence. What will the FBI report and recommendation say? We don't know, and we don't even know when such a thing might be presented. Once it is, then it's in the hands of the Attorney General, who will have to decide whether to investigate further or call a grand jury.

Lack of mens rea is very likely to be more than enough reason for the Attorney General not to call a grand jury. That's what I expect to happen. No grand jury. No indictment. State Department policy has already been changed, and there aren't going to be any more private servers or non-official email accounts for Secretaries of State. That practice went on too long and was fraught with possible problems. So, a lesson was learned, but no indictment of Hillary Clinton is likely to be issued.

No mens rea.

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Criminal Intent - That's what's missing and why no indictment will ensue. (Original Post) MineralMan May 2016 OP
Speculation pmorlan1 May 2016 #1
One thing that's not a speculation would be the statment's she's made. Loudestlib May 2016 #104
what about criminal negligence? eom Karma13612 May 2016 #2
She Is Guilty of GROSS NEGLIGENCE Which IS Sufficient To Bring An FBI Rec For INDICTMENT! CorporatistNation May 2016 #7
That is only your opinion, and should be stated as such. MineralMan May 2016 #16
As is your OP. NorthCarolina May 2016 #19
Look at the signature line at the bottom of this post. MineralMan May 2016 #22
I read posts, but I rarely if ever read signature lines. NorthCarolina May 2016 #24
I'm not sure how anyone would see a post MineralMan May 2016 #30
Doesn't show on mobile. Desert805 May 2016 #27
Can't help you there. I'm not going to put a disclaimer MineralMan May 2016 #28
Maybe you should consider deleting your post above NorthCarolina May 2016 #35
I wasn't asking for help. Desert805 May 2016 #40
Just an FYI, but my tablet doesn't show sig lines for some reason, including my own. Not sure GreenPartyVoter May 2016 #119
No, it's actually in the law. Press Virginia May 2016 #101
Do you even know what 'gross negligence' means? COLGATE4 May 2016 #81
It was IN ALL CAPS, so he must. Hortensis May 2016 #120
Yeah, I forgot about the 'all caps' rule. COLGATE4 May 2016 #123
Unless you are a lawyer and an expert in the relevant law, yours is an opinion. kstewart33 May 2016 #114
Maybe. Maybe not. HassleCat May 2016 #3
Document security violations do not allow for intent. hobbit709 May 2016 #4
Intent is not an element of the alleged crime hootinholler May 2016 #5
That's the 2 sections her supporters will ignore or twist. Incredible the denial level that is merbex May 2016 #85
There are unbiased legal experts who disagree. RDANGELO May 2016 #6
Obstructing FOIA! Not A Trustworthy Person Is That Hillary... Hiding , Hiding, Hiding! CorporatistNation May 2016 #11
...'intent to commit a crime'... HumanityExperiment May 2016 #8
Is this the new talking point? nadinbrzezinski May 2016 #9
He never has good talking points Ichingcarpenter May 2016 #12
The goalposts have been moved yet again AgingAmerican May 2016 #10
Great bumper sticker: "Hillary: Not Indicted 2016"!! nt Bonobo May 2016 #13
I'm not an attorney, but I do play one on the internet.... Bluenorthwest May 2016 #14
Thank you -- I keep trying to explain that obamanut2012 May 2016 #15
Yes, policy. MineralMan May 2016 #18
If a Secretary of State decided as a matter of "policy" The Velveteen Ocelot May 2016 #60
She won't be indicted because she's Hillary, mens rea or not. The Velveteen Ocelot May 2016 #17
I don't think it's simple, but when you get to cabinet department heads MineralMan May 2016 #20
No indictment will happen because she's Hillary, and that's enough. The Velveteen Ocelot May 2016 #21
Actually, because she was Secretary of State. MineralMan May 2016 #23
Cabinet secretaries have been variously charged, indicted, etc. on a number of occasions. The Velveteen Ocelot May 2016 #38
Guess what isn't required to charge Clinton with a crime over her emails? jeff47 May 2016 #25
There's one other thing hat is considered when charging someone with a crime... napi21 May 2016 #31
It doesn't work that way. A crime occurs if a criminal statute is violated, The Velveteen Ocelot May 2016 #41
You are conflating intent and harm. Nt msanthrope May 2016 #58
No, I am not. You can be guilty of a crime The Velveteen Ocelot May 2016 #59
Well, therein lies your conflation....you seem to to think HRC committed a strict liability msanthrope May 2016 #62
No, I'm not applying any of this discussion to Hillary. The Velveteen Ocelot May 2016 #65
Strict liability sctrict liability. So long as you're outraged, it's a crime COLGATE4 May 2016 #83
Well, I love the explanation downthread. Apparently he isn't talking about HRC, now. nt msanthrope May 2016 #118
"One is the "criminal intent" route, where they sell classified or hand it over to a foreign . . . brush May 2016 #33
Initially, it was not what Snowden did. jeff47 May 2016 #46
I thought the statute required gross negligence?? COLGATE4 May 2016 #82
Well, Patreus was charged under it. jeff47 May 2016 #84
I posted excerpts from the charging document i the Petraeaus case and they find intent Gothmog May 2016 #93
What I know is that gross negligence is required under the statute, not ordinary COLGATE4 May 2016 #110
Again, what do you think the threshold for gross negligence is? jeff47 May 2016 #112
Gross negligence has a specific meaning in the law. It is wanton or wilful misconduct with COLGATE4 May 2016 #113
Great, you can use google. Now, what do you think qualifies in this situation? jeff47 May 2016 #116
Actually, that isn't from Google. I don't think they come close COLGATE4 May 2016 #117
Ridiculous. Jester Messiah May 2016 #26
"Hillary Clinton admits that she wishes she had handled her email in a different way ... Martin Eden May 2016 #29
What you think is poor judgment and lying MineralMan May 2016 #32
cheney didn't get indicted for knowingly outing Valerie Plame MariaThinks May 2016 #37
I didn't say it was reason for indictment Martin Eden May 2016 #72
All opinions are not created equal... Melissa G May 2016 #109
Well stated MariaThinks May 2016 #34
So, tell me this, in your opinion this will not tarnish Hillary in the GE, IF she evades indictment? highprincipleswork May 2016 #36
I had expected a bit of a white wash from the Inspector General of Jarqui May 2016 #39
You misunderstand. She doesn't have to have "intent to commit a crime" just intent to commit the JudyM May 2016 #42
There are *two* types of Mens Rea: *specific* intent, and *general* intent. Look it up. Romulox May 2016 #43
+ A brazillian. opiate69 May 2016 #44
LOL! JudyM May 2016 #115
You don't need intent, but if you want some, she has it. Fawke Em May 2016 #45
Your attempt at analysis is wrong Gothmog May 2016 #86
So this is what it seems to come down to: libdem4life May 2016 #47
Not all crimes require proof of criminal intent. That's just not accurate. morningfog May 2016 #48
A key word in the Clinton email investigation: 'knowingly' Gothmog May 2016 #50
Those are not the only laws at issue here. morningfog May 2016 #54
Why Hillary Clinton is unlikely to be indicted over her private email server Gothmog May 2016 #87
A few points in response. morningfog May 2016 #103
Hillary Clinton is going to be exonerated on the email controversy Gothmog May 2016 #49
Exactly. Wishful thinking will not change the facts. MineralMan May 2016 #52
Wishful thinking in this case is a grave failure of morality Hortensis May 2016 #121
Who gives a fuck about e-mail? Rattlesnake Chaser May 2016 #67
The e-mails were not marked classified and so no law was broken Gothmog May 2016 #96
She may not have willfully disclosed classified material but she willfully mishandled it. Nuclear Unicorn May 2016 #51
She intentionally violated State Department rules TeddyR May 2016 #53
She was the Secretary of State, you may remember. MineralMan May 2016 #55
Secretaries of State do not make laws. They are as bound by laws as everyone else. The Velveteen Ocelot May 2016 #63
Again, you're incorrect. Fawke Em May 2016 #64
You seriously think that is how the executive branch functions? Yurovsky May 2016 #70
Quite familiar, no? opiate69 May 2016 #76
Ironic how it all came full circle for HRC... Yurovsky May 2016 #80
I've always been a big fan of irony... Alanis Morrisette, notwithstanding lol opiate69 May 2016 #89
Yeah, that song proved she didn't know what the word means... Yurovsky May 2016 #94
I assume this is sarcasm TeddyR May 2016 #71
They say assumption... discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2016 #98
Oooh, open the prisons and let all of those that had no intent out. Haha, good one. nt Live and Learn May 2016 #56
OK. There are a helluva lot of people in prison who MineralMan May 2016 #57
Mineral Man, "Expert" Legal Analyst TheSarcastinator May 2016 #61
Actually MM did a pretty decent job on this thread Gothmog May 2016 #91
uhuh...except for that one little detail.... TheSarcastinator May 2016 #100
Laypersons are so cute and adorable when they attempt to understand legal concepts Gothmog May 2016 #106
Nonsense. The law is what it is, Hortensis May 2016 #122
seriously you're going to go with that-"she didn't know"? azurnoir May 2016 #66
From a legal standpoint, national security does need not fit this profile. Classified information Exilednight May 2016 #68
Republicans know Hillary Clinton is not going to be indicted. They just can’t say so. Gothmog May 2016 #88
Circumventing Federal Law without criminal intent? AgingAmerican May 2016 #69
Intent only matters if the specific statute requires it. Ash_F May 2016 #73
With all due respect DefenseLawyer May 2016 #74
I thought the difference between intentially committing security crimes trudyco May 2016 #75
Same rules apply Gothmog May 2016 #90
Gross negligence AgingAmerican May 2016 #77
What about using the private server she used to communicate with Blumenthal - who'd polly7 May 2016 #78
The element of mens really is established by the warnings she received from NSA leveymg May 2016 #79
You are wrong again Gothmog May 2016 #92
I think MM should answer that for himself. leveymg May 2016 #99
BTW, even a fox news talking head disagrees with your attempts at analysis Gothmog May 2016 #97
Hillary not guilty does not compute when result is Bernie loss realmirage May 2016 #95
It's not a crime to be stupid. rickford66 May 2016 #102
This sounds like someone who knows she's housing classified materials.... Bob41213 May 2016 #105
I am not a lawyer but what you say seems false on its face considering there are many examples... Bread and Circus May 2016 #107
Correct, which is why the foundation problems are very serious crimes larkrake May 2016 #108
True... that's a fairly weak claim for the nomination though Recursion May 2016 #111

pmorlan1

(2,096 posts)
1. Speculation
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:45 AM
May 2016

None of us know what the FBI will report. None of us know how wide their investigation has taken them. None of us know how much evidence they have obtained. We can all speculate every time a piece of news is released but in the end we just need to wait and see what happens.

Loudestlib

(980 posts)
104. One thing that's not a speculation would be the statment's she's made.
Mon May 30, 2016, 09:57 PM
May 2016

"A month later, the State Department sent a cable to “all diplomatic and consular posts” about the dangers of unsecured personal email accounts. Staffers were ordered to “avoid conducting official Department business from your personal e-mail accounts.” Who signed that cable? Hillary Clinton."

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
7. She Is Guilty of GROSS NEGLIGENCE Which IS Sufficient To Bring An FBI Rec For INDICTMENT!
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:56 AM
May 2016
Read up on how this thing works...

Then there is this ever present issue... It is ALL so High School but at such a HIGH LEVEL! [/b
]



MSNBC To the deniers... Watch THIS Video... It is not comforting to think that she may well be the Democratic Nominee...

Hillary really betrayed Andrea Mitchell... The entire context of this report was of a solemn nature... A Funeral so to speak...

Andrea Mitchell "I do not see this report as ...ANYTHING BUT... DEVASTATING!"

Chuck Todd "After this I don't think that she could get confirmed for Attorney General!"

Lots of FIBBING by Hillary here.. for more than a year!

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
22. Look at the signature line at the bottom of this post.
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:23 PM
May 2016

That signature line appears on every post I write. I think that's pretty clearly stated.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
30. I'm not sure how anyone would see a post
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:38 PM
May 2016

I wrote expressing an opinion to be anything other than my opinion. Since I have zero to do with the FBI or the Attorney General's office, I can't post anything factual about either of them. So, I post my opinion, based on whatever I base it on.

I will not be adding a disclaimer to my posts. It's already there in my signature line. Whether that gets read or not is irrelevant.

I've not seen too many posts on DU with such a disclaimer, at least that are in the words of the poster. All posts here that are not simply quotations of something at a link are the poster's opinion, unless they state facts known to the poster.

For pete's sake!

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
28. Can't help you there. I'm not going to put a disclaimer
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:36 PM
May 2016

in every post stating that the post is my opinion. Of course it is. I wrote it. Even when I post something from a link, I post my own words which state my opinion of that.

My post. My opinion. Always.

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
35. Maybe you should consider deleting your post above
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:44 PM
May 2016

where you castigated someone for not posting a disclaimer...since, as you say, anything somebody writes is automatically assumed to be their opinion. Or is it just that you are somehow special and your rules are just for others?

GreenPartyVoter

(72,378 posts)
119. Just an FYI, but my tablet doesn't show sig lines for some reason, including my own. Not sure
Tue May 31, 2016, 07:08 AM
May 2016

if this is the case for very many other folks, but just wanted to let you know that there is at least one DUer who can't see them.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
101. No, it's actually in the law.
Mon May 30, 2016, 09:41 PM
May 2016

Whoever being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note or information relating to the national defense through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust or to be lost, stolen, abstracted or destroyed ...

kstewart33

(6,551 posts)
114. Unless you are a lawyer and an expert in the relevant law, yours is an opinion.
Mon May 30, 2016, 10:59 PM
May 2016

The judgment of two broadcasters is meaningless.

Everyone's opinion at DU is an opinion. Yours is no more knowledgable than anyone else's.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
3. Maybe. Maybe not.
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:48 AM
May 2016

"Sorry, officer, but I didn't realize I was going 74." You still get a ticket and have to pay the fine. Intent applies more to crimes such as robbery, extortion, etc. Not only that, but lack of intent may result in a lesser charge, rather than a dismissal of all charges. If I kill someone, and I didn't mean to, they will drop the first degree murder charges, but I'll still stand trial for negligent homicide. But Clinton will probably slide by pleading incompetence.

merbex

(3,123 posts)
85. That's the 2 sections her supporters will ignore or twist. Incredible the denial level that is
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:12 PM
May 2016

apparent around here.

RDANGELO

(3,433 posts)
6. There are unbiased legal experts who disagree.
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:53 AM
May 2016

This still doesn't address the possibility that she is under investigation for obstruction of justice or dealings involving the Clinton Foundation. There have been leaks to that effect. Maybe they are true; maybe not.

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
11. Obstructing FOIA! Not A Trustworthy Person Is That Hillary... Hiding , Hiding, Hiding!
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:59 AM
May 2016
What is lawfully ours as we WERE HER EMPLOYERS! Something she so readily casts aside...

The again the TRUST Issue!

MSNBC To the deniers... Watch THIS Video... It is not comforting to think that she may well be the Democratic Nominee...

Hillary really betrayed Andrea Mitchell... The entire context of this report was of a solemn nature... A Funeral so to speak...

Andrea Mitchell "I do not see this report as ...ANYTHING BUT... DEVASTATING!"

Chuck Todd "After this I don't think that she could get confirmed for Attorney General!"

Lots of FIBBING by Hillary here.. for more than a year!

 

HumanityExperiment

(1,442 posts)
8. ...'intent to commit a crime'...
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:57 AM
May 2016

Of course she intended to commit a crime... having a private server was a means to an end... any fool can see that

FOIA, it gives/gave her the ability to create hurdles to requests and examination...

Take the case to a grand jury, let the evidence stand on it's own and see which way this ends up

All this hysteric frantic arm waving by HRC supporters is hilarious, all this effort on this board alone shows there's blood in the water

Right now all they are trying to do is prevent it from gaining more media attention and traction in this primary cycle

It's only going to get worse in GE, she's going to give the prez to Trump... she's that feckless of a candidate against TRUMP... TRUMP... Any worthy candidate would be catapulting so far ahead of Trump it wouldn't, shouldn't be a contest

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
9. Is this the new talking point?
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:58 AM
May 2016

By the way, in national security cases...this is one...tje rules are slightly different. Oh I got that via a couple lawyers who work in such cases

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
12. He never has good talking points
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:05 PM
May 2016

But he does try.

This is why the Sidney Blumenthal contact among others

she had between the CGI and state that the FBI is looking into it and took over the investigation and there is talk about the Rico act. This is why the emails were destroyed.

I don't expect such power will be challenged of any consequences when it comes up the chain of command
but that is the real story why the FBI is looking into it.

The FBI report will be watered down but of no legal consequence however the electoral implications will be devastating. Too many higher up in the power structure have hitched their wagon to this ponzi scheme to back down............. bunker mentality will take over.

I was pre law and my brother was second in his class at the University of Texas Law school and then a judge

Intent has nothing to do with this

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
10. The goalposts have been moved yet again
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:59 AM
May 2016

I would say an attempt to circumvent the law matters, and if there are any indictments of anyone, she is done.

obamanut2012

(26,080 posts)
15. Thank you -- I keep trying to explain that
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:10 PM
May 2016

But people refuse to put their CDS aside.

It has to be not only criminal, but a felony. It is nothing at all like that -- it is policy. Basically an HR matter. That Powell and others also did.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
18. Yes, policy.
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:18 PM
May 2016

No law prohibits her use of a private email server, and the previous policy simply recommends against it. As the chief of the Department of State, she actually was the arbiter of that cabinet department's policies. People seem to forget that. There are laws about giving classified information to unauthorized recipients, of course, but even those are difficult to enforce when it comes to a Secretary of State, who speaks for the U. S. Government in affairs of state.

That, among other reasons, is why you don't see prosecutions of cabinet officers for their actions while serving in those offices. Cabinet officers have broad discretion about the operation of their departments. The precedent is not to prosecute such heads of departments for actions taken during their time in those positions.

If that were not the case, there could have been a number of prosecutions of such people from past administrations. None, however, have been prosecuted. I doubt an exception will be made in this case, either.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
60. If a Secretary of State decided as a matter of "policy"
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:52 PM
May 2016

that it would be more convenient to conduct official business on Facebook, and started posting state secrets on their Facebook wall (while carefully designating their Facebook page as "private," of course), would that SoS be immune from any consequences? Cabinet secretaries are not above the law (and yes, I realize that the entire Bush administration probably should be in Leavenworth but the reason they aren't has to do more with the political will of the subsequent administration than anything else), and as I pointed out in another post in this thread, quite a number of them have, in fact, been indicted and prosecuted.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
17. She won't be indicted because she's Hillary, mens rea or not.
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:12 PM
May 2016

And mens rea is not always a required element of a crime; there are some crimes that are referred to as strict liability crimes - in other words, whether or not you meant to do it, it's still a crime. Drunk driving and statutory rape are examples of this. Most more serious crimes are called specific intent crimes, however.

Where mens rea or specific intent gets tricky is proving what the defendant intended. If a statute says it's illegal for someone knowingly to use an unsecured email system, it doesn't matter that they didn't intend to use it for improper purposes. The crime, if it is one, would simply be the intentional use of an unsecured email system. One statute that could be involved here is 18 USC § 793(h), which provides that a crime has been committed when someone who has possession or control of classified information:

(1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction...


In other words, under this statute the specific intent to mishandle the information in not necessary; only gross negligence is required. Then the question is whether using an unsecured private server and an unsecured PDA device after being told not to constitutes gross negligence. That's for the government's lawyers to decide (assuming they would even be allowed to prosecute Herself). I'm retired from that line of work and I never liked criminal law much anyhow, but I do remember that the whole issue of mens rea is a very sticky wicket and not nearly as simple as you make it sound.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
20. I don't think it's simple, but when you get to cabinet department heads
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:22 PM
May 2016

things get very sticky, indeed. They are acting on behalf of the President of the United States. I can think of several situations where cabinet department heads did things that were blatantly illegal, and with intent. I'm sure most of us can. Yet, no indictments or prosecutions were done in those cases, either.

It's my opinion, based on a number of factors, not just this one, that no indictment will be issued and no prosecution undertaken. I simply don't think such things will occur for many reasons. It would be unprecedented.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
38. Cabinet secretaries have been variously charged, indicted, etc. on a number of occasions.
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:45 PM
May 2016

To name a few: Caspar Weinberger, Secretary of Defense, was pardoned before trial (Iran-Contra); Elliot Abrams, Deputy National Security Advisor, convicted and later pardoned; John Poindexter, National Security Advisor was also prosecuted. Then there was James Watt, Secretary of the Interior, who was convicted of bid-rigging. Attorney General John Mitchell was convicted of perjury (Watergate). Secretary of Commerce Maurice Stans was convicted of campaign act violations. Secretary of Agriculture Earl Butz pleaded guilty to tax evasion. U.S. Treasurer Catalina Villalpando was sent to prison for tax evasion and obstruction of justice.

No Secretaries of State that I know of, but it's flat-out incorrect to say that cabinet secretaries have broad discretion to commit acts that may be criminal. Secretaries of Defense and Attorneys General are as important as Secretaries of State and a number of them have been prosecuted for various crimes.

That said, I very much doubt that Herself will be prosecuted even if they find a whole steaming plateful of mens rea. Obama's DoJ wouldn't even slap Herself on the wrist.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
25. Guess what isn't required to charge Clinton with a crime over her emails?
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:27 PM
May 2016

Criminal intent.

There's basically two ways a civilian can face charges regarding classified information.

One is the "criminal intent" route, where they sell classified or hand it over to a foreign government.

The second is the "negligence" route, where the person handling the classified showed a great deal of negligence that could have caused the information to be compromised.

Your OP does an excellent job laying out how Clinton could be charged due to negligence.

napi21

(45,806 posts)
31. There's one other thing hat is considered when charging someone with a crime...
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:40 PM
May 2016

"WHERE'S THE HARM?" Who or what was injured by her actions? No harm, no crime!

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
41. It doesn't work that way. A crime occurs if a criminal statute is violated,
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:53 PM
May 2016

even if no actual harm results. If I drive drunk I can be convicted of DUI even if I don't cause the slightest harm - people have been convicted of DUI when found passed out drunk in their cars. Terroristic threats are a crime even if nobody is injured. The statute defines the crime, and if the statute doesn't require harm to have occurred but all the elements of the crime are present, you're guilty.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
59. No, I am not. You can be guilty of a crime
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:44 PM
May 2016

even if you did not intend to cause harm and even if you in fact did not cause harm, if your act met the elements of the statutory offense charged. Intent and harm are two different things. You can intend to commit the act that constitutes the crime without intending to cause harm. I practiced law for 17 years and I have done a little criminal defense work in my distant past, and I think I know whereof I speak.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
62. Well, therein lies your conflation....you seem to to think HRC committed a strict liability
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:55 PM
May 2016

crime, akin to drunk driving or statutory rape. Yet you've offered no evidence that would indicate that she is being pursued under a strict liability statute.

FYI.....during my practice, I actually did win acquittal for a person accused of stat rape, strict liability be damned.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
65. No, I'm not applying any of this discussion to Hillary.
Mon May 30, 2016, 04:00 PM
May 2016

I'm simply trying to sort out for the OP (who seems to be confused by what mens rea really is) what is meant by strict liability statutes vs. specific intent statutes. I'm not accusing her of one or the other or of anything in particular. I don't know what she did or what she intended to do. And I don't think she will be indicted.

brush

(53,789 posts)
33. "One is the "criminal intent" route, where they sell classified or hand it over to a foreign . . .
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:40 PM
May 2016

government"

Hey, that sounds like Snowden.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
46. Initially, it was not what Snowden did.
Mon May 30, 2016, 01:11 PM
May 2016

There's a gap in the civilian espionage laws where leaking classified to the public in general isn't a crime. You have to sell it, or directly give it to a foreign agent, or be negligent with it. Intentionally leaking it to the public isn't one of those.

That's why Ellsberg could not be charged in the Pentagon Papers case. He hadn't actually broken the law. Sure, the government made his life hell for a while, and would have done the same to Snowden, but the government would have run into the same problem with charging Snowden.

But then Snowden fled, and "accepted something of value" from Russia - food and shelter. That lets the government argue he sold the information, and thus can be charged.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
84. Well, Patreus was charged under it.
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:05 PM
May 2016

The code books he was charged with taking away were never stolen, and never shown to anyone without a security clearance - his girlfriend had one.

Just what do you imagine the threshold for "gross negligence" is here?

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
93. I posted excerpts from the charging document i the Petraeaus case and they find intent
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:38 PM
May 2016

The general was not charges under any gross negligence theory

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
110. What I know is that gross negligence is required under the statute, not ordinary
Mon May 30, 2016, 10:36 PM
May 2016

negligence. It's a much harder thing to prove.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
112. Again, what do you think the threshold for gross negligence is?
Mon May 30, 2016, 10:41 PM
May 2016

How 'bout sending out a cable to everyone at state telling them to not use private email for State business due to the danger of being hacked, while using private email for State business?

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
113. Gross negligence has a specific meaning in the law. It is wanton or wilful misconduct with
Mon May 30, 2016, 10:48 PM
May 2016

with reckless disregard. It very very hard to prove.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
116. Great, you can use google. Now, what do you think qualifies in this situation?
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:14 PM
May 2016

'Cause there was a whole hell of a lot of negligence around Clinton's server.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
117. Actually, that isn't from Google. I don't think they come close
Mon May 30, 2016, 11:43 PM
May 2016

to making a case for gross negligence with Hillary. That's my legal opinion based on 26 years as an attorney.

Martin Eden

(12,870 posts)
29. "Hillary Clinton admits that she wishes she had handled her email in a different way ...
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:38 PM
May 2016

... and has actually apologized."

Of course she wishes this issue wasn't jeopardizing her chances to become president. What else can she do or say at this point?

One of the things she could have done once it became an issue was to refrain from lying about it.

No doubt she regrets that too now.

At the very least, if no criminality is involved, poor judgment and lying are not qualities that earn votes.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
32. What you think is poor judgment and lying
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:40 PM
May 2016

is also not reason for an indictment. It is your opinion only. Just as my post is my opinion. That's what we trade in on DU: opinions.

MariaThinks

(2,495 posts)
37. cheney didn't get indicted for knowingly outing Valerie Plame
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:45 PM
May 2016

yet, Hillary could get indicted for made up scenarios.

Martin Eden

(12,870 posts)
72. I didn't say it was reason for indictment
Mon May 30, 2016, 05:43 PM
May 2016

I think this whole thing is somewhat overblown, but I also think (my opinion, mind you) she has shown very poor judgment and this could possibly throw the election to Trump.

That she lied about it has pretty much crossed over from opinion to fact.

Melissa G

(10,170 posts)
109. All opinions are not created equal...
Mon May 30, 2016, 10:36 PM
May 2016

Here is another one from a stronger, more educated source:

http://lawnewz.com/politics/hillary-clintons-emails-now-might-finally-take-her-down/

snip
More to the point, though, you fear that the most likely Democrat nominee, having just been seriously wounded by this week’s IG report, is manifestly vulnerable to a much greater wound in the form of a criminal indictment for misconduct that far transcends what the IG report dealt with. Specifically, as a sophisticated observer, you are aware that Former Secretary Clinton’s intent (known in criminal law as mens rea), or lack of same, is not what matters in this case. Rather, the applicable legal standard is a mere “gross negligence” one, as specified in the standard national security non-disclosure agreement that she signed and its underlying criminal statutes.

And when you marry that to the fact that (among other things) her admitted failure to use the State Department’s special classified email system for classified (or potentially classified) information constituted a clear violation of a criminal prohibition, you start worrying big-time. And this is especially so given that Ms. Clinton did not just violate such laws inadvertently or even only occasionally — she did so systemically. In other words, her very email scheme itself appears to have been a walking violation of criminal law, one with the mens rea prosecution standard readily met.

It also is especially so given that the ongoing investigation of Ms. Clinton’s misconduct is being conducted by the FBI, under the leadership of FBI Director James Comey. Those of us who worked under him when he was the deputy attorney general during the George W. Bush Administration know him to be an exceptional man of utmost integrity, one who can be counted on to recommend a criminal prosecution when the facts and the law of a case warrant it, regardless of political circumstances. Given that the facts and law are so clear in Ms. Clinton’s case, it is difficult to imagine her not being indicted, unless Jim Comey’s expected recommendation for that is abruptly overruled at “Main Justice” (i.e., by Criminal Division Assistant Attorney General Leslie Caldwell, by Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates, or by Attorney General Loretta Lynch) or at the White House by President Obama (who customarily does not intervene in such things and would do so here either secretly or at no small political peril).

Jarqui

(10,126 posts)
39. I had expected a bit of a white wash from the Inspector General of
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:46 PM
May 2016

the State Department - because the State Department itself seemed to be in on protecting Hillary from the outset. I was a little surprised. He basically underscored that Hillary lied and she's suffering from a poor media reaction (from her perspective) to the report.

For the issue in this thread as to whether she will be indicted for a crime, the really interesting report from an Inspector General would be the next one: the IG for the Intelligence Community.

The IG for the State Department seems to suggest (from the media coverage - I have not read his report word for word) that she broke FOIA or Records laws and regulations but that breaking those laws/regulations doesn't have much consequence. The civil cases getting depositions from now until sometime this summer will further assess that.

I think the IG for the Intelligence Community has to be harsher. If not, how can they ever discipline another Federal employee for being careless with classified information?

Ultimately, the FBI and Justice department will decide the issue (unless the Administration weighs in) but our guesses as to whether she'll be indicted or not will probably be better after the IG for the Intelligence Community reports.

I have a feeling that day is going to be considerably tougher on her campaign and the support she's been getting from the super delegates. Time will tell soon enough.

JudyM

(29,251 posts)
42. You misunderstand. She doesn't have to have "intent to commit a crime" just intent to commit the
Mon May 30, 2016, 12:58 PM
May 2016

acts that she committed. Hence the expression "ignorance of the law is no excuse"...

It's quaint that you think that despite a career as both a lawyer, a president's wife and a politician, she somehow would not have known exactly what she was doing, and set up a system for doing it which included (just as one small practical illustration) hiring Pagliano into the State dept. If that were actually above board she would have ensured he disclosed his dual role up front, because any lawyer would be tuned in to that apparent conflict of interest. That right there is a smoking gun about her intent.

But then, anyway, intent is not needed to convict her for some of what she has done, as is amply described for you by others above.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
43. There are *two* types of Mens Rea: *specific* intent, and *general* intent. Look it up.
Mon May 30, 2016, 01:01 PM
May 2016

You need to study before you teach.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
45. You don't need intent, but if you want some, she has it.
Mon May 30, 2016, 01:06 PM
May 2016

Unless you think she's not a "reasonable" person.

Any reasonable person - especially those with the training she would have received regarding data security - would have known that a private email server kept in your basement could never be as protected as well as SIPRnet and JWICS.

But, in this case, it's called "strict liability:" you either mishandled national defense data or you didn't.

Ask John Kiriakou or Thomas Drake if you don't believe me.

Another argument being surfaced, in a transparent attempt to defend Secretary Clinton, has to do with intent. It is said that she did not intend to have classified information on her computer in New York and had no intention of handling secret material in a way that would be accessible to foreign intelligence or others lacking the proper security clearances and the need-to-know.

But while intent might be relevant in terms of punishment, it does not change the fact that as a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, then Senator Clinton had clearances for classified information for years before becoming Secretary of State. She knew the rules and yet as Secretary she handled classified information carelessly after a deliberate decision to circumvent normal procedures for its safeguarding, thus making it vulnerable to foreign intelligence, as well as to criminal hackers.

Anyone who has ever handled classified material knows that there are a number of things that you do not do. You do not take it home with you, you do not copy it and share it with anyone who does not have a clearance and a need-to-know, you do not strip off the classification marks and treat it as unclassified, and you do not transfer it to another email account that is not protected by a government server.


SNIP

Numerous messages both in New York and in Washington have reportedly been erased or simply cannot be found. In addition, the law cited above explicitly makes it a felony to cut and paste classified information removing its classification designation. Retaining such information on a private email system is also a felony. In one of Secretary Clinton’s emails, she instructed her staff simply to remove a classification and send the information to her on her server.

So the question is not whether Secretary Clinton broke the law. She did. If the laws are to be equally applied, she should face the same kind of consequences as others who have been found, often on the basis of much less convincing evidence, guilty of similar behavior.


http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/05/24/intel-vets-urge-fast-report-clintons-emails

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
86. Your attempt at analysis is wrong
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:22 PM
May 2016

There are laws that make it illegal for laypersons to practice law and your analysis shows that these laws are necessary. You can not have a criminal violation without some form of intent. Here is a very simplistic explanation that even a layperson might be able to understand http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/mens-rea-a-defendant-s-mental-state.html


Most crimes require what attorneys refer to as "mens rea", which is simply Latin for a "guilty mind". In other words, what a defendant was thinking and what the defendant intended when the crime was committed matters. Mens rea allows the criminal justice system to differentiate between someone who did not mean to commit a crime and someone who intentionally set out to commit a crime.

To give an example, imagine two drivers who end up hitting and killing a pedestrian. Driver 1 never saw the person until it was too late, tried his or her best to brake, but could do nothing to stop the accident and in fact ended up killing the pedestrian. Driver 1 is still liable, but likely only in civil court for monetary damages.

Driver 2, on the other hand, had been out looking for the pedestrian and upon seeing him, steered towards him, hit the gas pedal and slammed into him, killing him instantly. Driver 2 is probably criminally liable because he intended to kill the pedestrian, or at least he intended to cause serious bodily harm. Even though the pedestrian is killed in both scenarios (the outcome is the same), the intent of both drivers was very different and their punishments will be substantially different as a result.

Careless versus Criminal

Carelessness is generally referred to as "negligence" in legal terminology, and generally results in only civil, not criminal, liability. However, at some point general carelessness turns into something more culpable, and some criminal statutes have heightened negligence standards such as criminal or reckless negligence. For example, it may be simple negligence to leave items out on your sidewalk that cause a neighbor to fall and hurt themselves. It may be more than simple negligence, however, if you left out a chainsaw, some knives and flammable material on your sidewalk, resulting in your neighbor's serious injury.

Intentional versus Unintentional

Intentional harmful behavior is often criminal, but unintentional harmful behavior comes in two basic forms. The first is "mistake in fact" and the second is "mistake of law".

Mistake in fact means that, although your behavior fit the definition of a crime in an objective sense - you sold illegal drugs for instance - you were unaware that what you were selling was in fact an illegal drug. For example, if you gave someone a bag full of white powder in return for some money and honestly thought it was baking soda, then you are mistaken as to a fact that is critical to the crime. As a result, you likely lack the necessary mens rea or mental intent necessary under a drug law, because you never intended to sell an illegal drug, you intended to sell baking soda (note that almost no one will believe you honestly thought baking soda could be sold for that much money).

Mistake of law however, will almost never save you from criminal liability. Almost everyone is familiar with the phrase that "ignorance of the law is no excuse", and that's exactly how the law sees it. Perhaps in the above example, you did know that what you were selling was cocaine, but you honestly thought that it was legal to do so. It doesn't matter. It may seem slightly unfair that the person who was essentially dumb enough to believe that the white powder was baking soda gets off, but the well intentioned person who honestly thought it was legal to sell cocaine doesn't get off. The justification for having no tolerance for ignorance of the law is that allowing ignorance of the law as a defense would discourage people from learning the law and seriously undermine the effectiveness of the legal system.

- See more at: http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/mens-rea-a-defendant-s-mental-state.html#sthash.OLHaBt76.dpuf

This not an area for strict liability. For example the Petraeaus case involved a ton of proof of actual intent to release material that the general knew was classified.

Thank you for the amusement.
 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
47. So this is what it seems to come down to:
Mon May 30, 2016, 01:11 PM
May 2016

1) She willingly and knowingly did a whole bunch of stupid things she didn't want to get caught doing...thus potential legal jeopardy.

2) Our brilliant and highly capable professional is incompetent, ignorant and professionally unprepared for public service.

If it were me, probably I'd plead ignorance over legal malfeasance.

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
50. A key word in the Clinton email investigation: 'knowingly'
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:06 PM
May 2016

Intent is an element of these offenses There is no intent here http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-clinton-emails-legal-20150908-story.html

Nonetheless, the law on mishandling classified information makes it illegal to "knowingly remove" classified information "with the intent to retain [it] at an unauthorized location." And after leaving office, Clinton hired a company called Platte River Networks in Denver to retain the server with all of her State Department emails.

Two former CIA directors ran afoul of that law for moving classified information to an unauthorized location. John M. Deutch faced a possible criminal charge in 2000 for keeping classified information on his home computer, and former CIA Director Gen. David H. Petraeus agreed to plead guilty in April and pay a $100,000 fine for having given several notebooks containing highly classified information to a woman who was writing his biography.

But unlike in Clinton's case, Deutch and Petraeus admitted they knew they had secret information that should have been kept secure. So far all of the Clinton emails in question were not marked as classified at the time she sent or received them, and only later were designated as classified.

Anne Tompkins, a former U.S. attorney in North Carolina who prosecuted Petraeus, disagreed with Mukasey's assessment that the former secretary of State could be charged with mishandling classified information. "Petraeus knowingly engaged in unlawful conduct," she wrote in a USA Today opinion piece last week, but Clinton said she did not believe she had sent or received classified information by email.

In late July, two inspectors general — both Obama appointees — said they were troubled to learn that classified information that "should have been marked and handled at the SECRET level" had been on Clinton's email server and had been publicly released this year.

"This classified information should never have been transmitted via an unclassified personal system," they said. They referred the matter to intelligence agencies and to the FBI, but added it was not "a criminal referral."

Stewart Baker, who served as top national security lawyer under Presidents Clinton and George W. Bush, said it does not appear based on what is known now that Hillary Clinton committed a crime when she used a private email server.

"It was a bad idea, a serious lapse in judgment, but that's not the same as saying it leads to criminal liability," he said. On the other hand, the continuing inquiries could turn up damaging evidence, he said, including the possibility that foreign governments tapped into her emails.

Laypersons amuse me when they ignore concepts like mens rea and culpable mental state
 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
54. Those are not the only laws at issue here.
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:32 PM
May 2016

There is evidence that she, or someone on her behalf, destroyed federal records. That, too, is a felony.

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
87. Why Hillary Clinton is unlikely to be indicted over her private email server
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:24 PM
May 2016

Here are some facts for the silly conservatives to ignore https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-hillary-clinton-is-unlikely-to-be-indicted-over-her-private-email-server/2016/03/08/341c3786-e557-11e5-b0fd-073d5930a7b7_story.html

“There are plenty of unattractive facts but not a lot of clear evidence of criminality, and we tend to forget the distinction,” American University law professor Stephen Vladeck, an expert on prosecutions involving classified information, told me. “This is really just a political firestorm, not a criminal case.”

Could a clever law student fit the fact pattern into a criminal violation? Sure. Would a responsible federal prosecutor pursue it? Hardly — absent new evidence, based on my conversations with experts in such prosecutions.

There are two main statutory hooks. Title 18, Section 1924, a misdemeanor, makes it a crime for a government employee to “knowingly remove” classified information “without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location.”

The State Department released 52,000 pages of Hillary Clinton’s emails as part of a court-ordered process. Here's what else we learned from the publicly released emails. (Monica Akhtar/The Washington Post)
Prosecutors used this provision in securing a guilty plea from former CIA director David H. Petraeus, who was sentenced to probation and fined $100,000. But there are key differences between Petraeus and Clinton.

Petraeus clearly knew the material he provided to Paula Broadwell was classified and that she was not authorized to view it. “Highly classified .?.?. code word stuff in there,” he told her. He lied to FBI agents, the kind of behavior that tends to inflame prosecutors.

In Clinton’s case, by contrast, there is no clear evidence that Clinton knew (or even should have known) that the material in her emails was classified. Second, it is debatable whether her use of the private server constituted removal or retention of material. Finally, the aggravating circumstance of false statements to federal agents is, as far as we know, absent.....

The argument here would be that Clinton engaged in such “gross negligence” by transferring information she knew or should have known was classified from its “proper place” onto her private server, or by sharing it with someone not authorized to receive it. Yet, as the Supreme Court has said, “gross negligence” is a “nebulous” term. Especially in the criminal context, it would seem to require conduct more like throwing classified materials into a Dumpster than putting them on a private server that presumably had security protections.

My point here isn’t to praise Clinton’s conduct. She shouldn’t have been using the private server for official business in the first place. It’s certainly possible she was cavalier about discussing classified material on it; that would be disturbing but she wouldn’t be alone, especially given rampant over-classification.

The handling of the emails is an entirely legitimate subject for FBI investigation. That’s a far cry from an indictable offense.

Ruth Marcus is hardly a Clinton supporter and these facts are consistent with the analysis posted elsewhere on this board that are not from Fox
 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
103. A few points in response.
Mon May 30, 2016, 09:50 PM
May 2016

First that article was dated March 8, and premised its analysis on "no new formation."

It's now nearly June and there is new information. The new information, the OIG report, provides evidence consistent with Marcus' analysis of the security statutes. And I fully agree that without more than has publicly been disclosed there is no criminal liability.

The OIG report raised new questions on the preservation and destruction of federal public records. The OIG made clear, in black and white, that Hillary and her staff did not comply with the record retention laws. That is, Hillary and her staff violated the federal record preservation laws. Since these are administrative laws (they are laws, not "rule" or "policies&quot , there is not criminal liability on the practice of preserving the records.

However, the OIG report left open the question of whether any federal records were not only not properly preserved, but additionally, whether any were destroyed. The OIG report cites 4 emails to or from Hillary which Hillary did not produce and provide to State. In other words, it appears that those four (and there may be others) were intentionally destroyed after Hillary self reviewed and marked personal even though they were clearly business and subject to federal record retention law. There is a felony to destroy federal records.

Having said all that, I still don't expect her to be indicted. But the FBI has assuredly answered the questions raised by the OIG as well as others and it is certainly possible, with what we know at this point, that someone may be facing criminal liability.

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
49. Hillary Clinton is going to be exonerated on the email controversy
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:00 PM
May 2016

Here are some facts for you to ignore https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/05/06/hillary-clinton-is-going-to-be-exonerated-on-the-email-controversy-it-wont-matter/

The latest news on the Hillary Clinton email controversy reinforces everything we’ve heard so far on this subject:

Prosecutors and FBI agents investigating Hillary Clinton’s use of a personal email server have so far found scant evidence that the leading Democratic presidential candidate intended to break classification rules, though they are still probing the case aggressively with an eye on interviewing Clinton herself, according to U.S. officials familiar with the matter.

FBI agents on the case have been joined by federal prosecutors from the same office that successfully prosecuted 9/11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui — and who would handle any Edward Snowden case, should he ever return to the country, according to the U.S. officials familiar with the matter. And in recent weeks, prosecutors from the U.S. Attorney’s Office in the Eastern District of Virginia and their FBI counterparts have been interviewing top Clinton aides as they seek to bring the case to a close.

That point about her intending to break classification rules is important, because in order to have broken the law, it isn’t enough for Clinton to have had classified information in a place where it was possible for it to be hacked. She would have had to intentionally given classified information to someone without authorization to have it, like David Petraeus did when he showed classified documents to his mistress (and then lied to the FBI about it, by the way). Despite the enormous manpower and time the Justice Department has devoted to this case, there has never been even a suggestion, let alone any evidence, that Clinton did any such thing.

So far no one has found evidence of intent.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
121. Wishful thinking in this case is a grave failure of morality
Tue May 31, 2016, 07:17 AM
May 2016

and character.

Wishing that classified data was leaked?
Wishing that someone who's probably innocent turned out to be guilty?
Wishing that the will of Democratic voters was overthrown, forcing acceptance of a losing candidate by default?

All highly immoral.

 
67. Who gives a fuck about e-mail?
Mon May 30, 2016, 04:12 PM
May 2016

This is about passing SENSITIVE/CLASSIFIED materials to those who did not have the clearance to it.

That is the issue at hand, not some email.

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
96. The e-mails were not marked classified and so no law was broken
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:44 PM
May 2016

The e-mails here were not marked classified at the time they were sent and so you have to prove that Clinton had actual knowledge. Given that the complained about e-mails were discussion articles in the NYT about drones, that will be impossible to prove. The OP fails to mention that these so-called classified e-mails were summaries of articles in the NYT about drones and were in the public domain http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/02/yep-top-secret-emails-were-all-about-drones

So just what was in those "top secret" emails that Hillary Clinton received on her personal email server while she was Secretary of State? The New York Times reports what everyone has already figured out: they were about drones. What's more, the question of whether they contain anything that's actually sensitive is mostly just a spat between CIA and State:

Some of the nation’s intelligence agencies raised alarms last spring as the State Department began releasing emails from Hillary Clinton’s private server, saying that a number of the messages contained information that should be classified “top secret.”

The diplomats saw things differently and pushed back at the spies. In the months since, a battle has played out between the State Department and the intelligence agencies.

....Several officials said that at least one of the emails contained oblique references to C.I.A. operatives. One of the messages has been given a designation of “HCS-O” — indicating that the information was derived from human intelligence sources...The government officials said that discussions in an email thread about a New York Times article — the officials did not say which article — contained sensitive information about the intelligence surrounding the C.I.A.’s drone activities, particularly in Pakistan.

The whole piece is worth reading for the details, but the bottom line is pretty simple: there's no there there. At most, there's a minuscule amount of slightly questionable reporting that was sent via email—a common practice since pretty much forever. Mostly, though, it seems to be a case of the CIA trying to bully State and win some kind of obscure pissing contest over whether they're sufficiently careful with the nation's secrets.

It is not against the law to read and talk about articles in NYT.
 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
53. She intentionally violated State Department rules
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:32 PM
May 2016

The State Department IG report establishes that fact. She MAY have committed a crime, but that isn't particularly relevant - the undisputed fact is that Hills knowingly violated SD rules because she wanted to protect her private emails from production. This "the rules don't apply to me" attitude is enough to disqualify her from running the country (not to mention the fact that it exposed confidential/secret/top secret info to hacking). Unfortunately, I'll probably be voting for Hills in November because she'll be the nominee and is a much lesser evil than Trump.

I want to be clear - I'm going to vote for Hills in November if she's the nominee but not because I like her; I don't, nor do something like 60% of the American public. Let that sink in - 6 in 10 Americans dislike Hillary Clinton, yet she's the best candidate the Dems could come up with? I think she's the ultimate politician who will change her policy positions at the drop of a dime, she's not trustworthy, and ultimately is most concerned about what benefits Hillary. That said, she's certainly not crazy/cuckoo like Trump, so she gets my vote by default. It is a shame that Democrats are left with this type of choice, and the entire party leadership should engage in some serious soul-searching after the election ends.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
55. She was the Secretary of State, you may remember.
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:33 PM
May 2016

She was in charge of the rules. The Boss. The Big Kahuna. Hello...

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
63. Secretaries of State do not make laws. They are as bound by laws as everyone else.
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:57 PM
May 2016

They can set procedures and policies for their departments but those procedures and policies can't violate federal statutes. She was not the boss in respect of deciding how to handle classified material in accordance with federal statutes, and if it is determined that she violated any statutes she can't avoid prosecution by claiming she was the Big Boss who made the rules.

She won't be prosecuted because she's Hillary, regardless.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
64. Again, you're incorrect.
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:58 PM
May 2016

The Intelligence Community makes the final decision on classified material and the handling of sensitive national security data - not the State Department alone.

The IC is made up of security and intelligence officials from State, along with Defense, the NSA, Air Force, Army, Marine, Naval and Coast Guard Intelligence, the CIA, Defense Intelligence, Energy, DHS, Treasury, the DEA, the FBI, the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency and the National Reconnaissance Office.

She was only the "big kahuna" in one of those offices.

Yurovsky

(2,064 posts)
70. You seriously think that is how the executive branch functions?
Mon May 30, 2016, 04:27 PM
May 2016

Each Department is a fiefdom and the Secretary can arbitrarily make law and/or violate laws and rules with impunity simply because they are "the Big Kahuna"?

Sweet baby Jesus...

Yurovsky

(2,064 posts)
80. Ironic how it all came full circle for HRC...
Mon May 30, 2016, 06:15 PM
May 2016

she started out trying to help take out Nixon, and her own Nixonian paranoia is now on the verge of taking her out... The 18 minute tape gap vs 30k missing emails...

Yurovsky

(2,064 posts)
94. Yeah, that song proved she didn't know what the word means...
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:42 PM
May 2016

it probably should have gone "isn't it a bummer..."

Just sayin'...

TheSarcastinator

(854 posts)
61. Mineral Man, "Expert" Legal Analyst
Mon May 30, 2016, 03:53 PM
May 2016

Yet another Google expert! You'll have to excuse me if I wait for the final word from the FBI rather than relying upon your brilliance.

TheSarcastinator

(854 posts)
100. uhuh...except for that one little detail....
Mon May 30, 2016, 09:40 PM
May 2016

that criminal intent does not matter for issues of national security. Team Hindenburg is so cute!

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
106. Laypersons are so cute and adorable when they attempt to understand legal concepts
Mon May 30, 2016, 10:16 PM
May 2016

Intent is indeed necessary and without good evidence of intent there will be no indictment. Read posts 88 and 90 or have someone read these posts and explain them to you. There is no strict liability in this area of the law. It takes intent. Click on the link to the Petraeaus charging document and read the facts used to show that there was specific intent to disclose confidential information

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
122. Nonsense. The law is what it is,
Tue May 31, 2016, 07:20 AM
May 2016

not what a bunch of really nasty political partisans want it to be in order to railroad a candidate off the ballot. Rove has nothing on some of those here, except power, knowledge, and the competence of years of experience in dirty politics, of course.

Where was all this year-long bernista outrage over Petraeus, who very much had intent and also lied to the FBI in an attempt to hide his genuine crimes, btw? Whole different thing from an extremely busy woman who mostly just didn't want to give up her Blackberry and instructed the tech guys to make it work.

Exilednight

(9,359 posts)
68. From a legal standpoint, national security does need not fit this profile. Classified information
Mon May 30, 2016, 04:21 PM
May 2016

And the laws surrounding them fall into a much different category. Criminal intent need not be proven, just the fact that information was compromised and (and I can not stress this part enough) MAY HAVE (no actual proof that it actually did) compromised national security. Nor need it be intentional.

It's likely she will not be indicted, but it's not necessarily true that if she did mishandle information that they couldn't - even if there was no intent.

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
88. Republicans know Hillary Clinton is not going to be indicted. They just can’t say so.
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:29 PM
May 2016

Here are some facts for the Sanders supporters to ignore or not be able to understand https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/04/11/republicans-know-hillary-clinton-is-not-going-to-be-indicted-they-just-cant-say-so/

So for instance, David Petraeus got charged because he showed top secret documents to his mistress (and then lied to the FBI about it). But there’s no evidence that Clinton did anything even remotely similar. That’s why, when Politico’s Josh Gerstein examined prior cases similar to this one, he concluded that an indictment is highly unlikely. As Gestein writes:

The relatively few cases that drew prosecution almost always involved a deliberate intent to violate classification rules, as well as some add-on element: An FBI agent who took home highly sensitive agency records while having an affair with a Chinese agent; a Boeing engineer who brought home 2000 classified documents and whose travel to Israel raised suspicions; a National Security Agency official who removed boxes of classified documents and also lied on a job application form.

.......But if you’re a Republican pundit, you know that the idea of Hillary Clinton being led away in handcuffs is just too tantalizing for your audience to resist. And so when the Fox News Sunday panel (consisting of two conservative Republicans and two objective reporters, which is their idea of balance) had the chance to weigh in, the conservatives — Karl Rove and The Post’s George Will — expressed the proper degree of faux outrage at Obama. What’s most interesting about their comments (here’s the transcript) is that neither one of them even tried to make a case that Clinton should be indicted. Instead, they both brought up former IRS official Lois Lerner, to argue that the Obama Justice Department engages in cover-ups of criminal behavior. They implied, without saying outright, that the Justice Department would never issue indictments that would damage Democrats (such as Hillary Clinton).

For the most part, the Clinton email story has been a disappointment to Republicans. They were desperately hoping that the emails would reveal some kind of ghastly malfeasance on Clinton’s part, some smoking gun that would make all Americans realize that she should never be elected president. When that turned out not to be the case, they pinned their hopes on the idea that she would just have to be charged with a crime eventually. I have no doubt that people like Will and Rove now understand that that isn’t going to happen either.

But having gone this far, they need to keep up appearances, and they also know that just talking about her emails serves to convince people that something scandalous must have happened. So they are laying the groundwork to argue, if and when she doesn’t get indicted, that it must only be because Barack Obama’s corrupt administration quashed the investigation and hid the truth from the public.

And down where the conservative rank and file get their information — the talk radio rants, the right-wing blogs, the breathless chain emails — these two contradictory ideas are both widely circulated. Clinton is about to be indicted, and Clinton won’t be indicted because the fix is in. The assumption in either case is that of course she committed crimes, even if no one can say exactly what they were. Because she’s Hillary Clinton, right? What more do you need to know?

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
73. Intent only matters if the specific statute requires it.
Mon May 30, 2016, 05:48 PM
May 2016

I don't know what statutes they might be looking at, but if intent is not written in there then it doesn't matter. It could be an argument made by the defense during the sentencing phase but not relevant to guilt and innocence.

Also your presumed reasons for her motives may not be the truth. I do think that is why she did it.

trudyco

(1,258 posts)
75. I thought the difference between intentially committing security crimes
Mon May 30, 2016, 05:53 PM
May 2016

and gross negligence is the difference between being charged as a traitor and possibly get the death penalty versus just getting a felony.

Only the Hillary bots are trying to say it's a difference between guilt and innocence. Everybody else is saying it's a difference in sentencing.

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
90. Same rules apply
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:33 PM
May 2016

You need intent to release national security materials First, Petraeus' binders were marked classified and Petraeus knew that the material was classified. This is from the document issued connection with his plea deal https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/03/petraeus-factual-basis.pdf

Between in or about August 2011, and on or about April 5, 2013, defendant DAVID HOWELL PETRAEUS, being an employee of the United States, and by virtue of his employment, became possessed of documents and materials containing classified information of the United States, and did unlawfully and knowingly remove such documents and materials without authority and thereafter intentionally retained such documents and materials at the DC Private Residence and the PETRAEUS Residence, aware that these locations were unauthorized for the storage and retention of such classified documents and materials. ....

Between in or about August 2011 and on or about April 5, 2013, defendant DAVID HOWELL PETRAEUS, being an employee of the United States, and by virtue of his employment, became possessed of documents and materials containing classified information of the United States, and did unlawfully and knowingly remove such documents and materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents and materials at unauthorized locations, aware that these locations were unauthorized for the storage and retention of such classified documents and materials;

All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1924

This document is interesting reading and turns in large part on Petraeus' knowledge and intent issue despite the fact that he signed multiple NDAs. There are no strict liability laws where one can commit a crime without mens rea or culpable mental intent. In this case, the general had that intent and still only got a probated sentence. The e-mails in question were not marked as top secret and under the law, the government will have an impossible burden of showing that Sec. Clinton knew that the material was top secret.

Here is a good explanation of the law that is written for laypersons by the Congressional Research Service https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/R41404.pdf

18 U.S.C. Section 1924 prohibits the unauthorized removal of classified material by government employees, contractors, and consultants who come into possession of the material by virtue of their employment by the government. The provision imposes a fine of up to $1,000 and a prison term up to one year for offenders who knowingly remove material classified pursuant to government regulations concerning the national defense or foreign relations of the United States, with the intent of retaining the materials at an unauthorized location....

In light of the foregoing, it seems that there is ample statutory authority for prosecuting individuals who elicit or disseminate many of the documents at issue, as long as the intent element can be satisfied and potential damage to national security can be demonstrated.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
78. What about using the private server she used to communicate with Blumenthal - who'd
Mon May 30, 2016, 05:58 PM
May 2016

been banned by Obama - as an adviser re Libya (also representing clients with interests in a post-war Libya), being paid through her Foundation, and whose completely wrong 'intelligence' she used (with no ability for scrutiny) to persuade Obama to intervene in a sovereign nation on the '7 countries in 5 years' hit list and help cause that horror, as well as all of the resulting suffering for millions since?
The IS and Boko Haram freaks who were let lose to fill the vacuums in Iraq and Libya created have burned people alive - among so many other atrocities. Is that nothing? Without Blumenthal's 'info', an ambivalent Obama may not have been pushed over the line for that 51-49 vote. Clinton told Blumenthal to 'keep em coming'. Another email celebrated getting Obama onboard as an early Christmas present!

Barack Obama says Libya was 'worst mistake' of his presidency.

Meanwhile, millions are either dead, maimed physically and mentally, orphaned, dying at sea, refugees in dangerous refugee camps where women (who'd previously been allowed many, many freedoms now denied by the fundamentalists now running those countries) and children are kidnapped and raped and murdered.

And check out this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=7857478

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
79. The element of mens really is established by the warnings she received from NSA
Mon May 30, 2016, 06:14 PM
May 2016

that her personal Blackberry was unsecure and she should stop using it. Instead, she hooked it up to a private server and proceeded to post 104 classified messages across that system she knew was insecure. She also exercised gross negligence by destroying classified messages after being instructed to turn them over. That's a separate felony. Then there was herv failure to report the unauthorized possession and transmission of classified materials by others. After Blumenthal told her the stuff he was sending her was classified she infamously emailed him bsck, "That's a keeper, keep it coming" A third type of felony offense that doesn't require criminal intent just a failure to report a crime.

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
92. You are wrong again
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:35 PM
May 2016

Keep up the good work. Your posts show why it is illegal for laypersons to attempt to practice law.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
95. Hillary not guilty does not compute when result is Bernie loss
Mon May 30, 2016, 08:43 PM
May 2016

That's what this all boils down to. People clinging to right wing conspiracies in order to hold out hope the will of the people can still be overturned.

Bob41213

(491 posts)
105. This sounds like someone who knows she's housing classified materials....
Mon May 30, 2016, 10:16 PM
May 2016

HRC: "If not classified or otherwise inappropriate, can you send to the NYTimes reporters who interviewed me today?"

https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/9821

Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
107. I am not a lawyer but what you say seems false on its face considering there are many examples...
Mon May 30, 2016, 10:20 PM
May 2016

of criminalization of acts that do not have "guilty mind" or "criminal intent".

Killing someone while impaired while driving can garner manslaughter charges and incarceration. Hell, just accidentally mishandling your records according to Bill Clinton's 1996 HIPAA laws can garner criminal charges. In neither instance, is there an ounce of "intent" to harm.

So, I don't know. Sometimes you make good posts but unless you are a lawyer with the appropriate background, I think you might want to confer with one. Your premise seems off.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
111. True... that's a fairly weak claim for the nomination though
Mon May 30, 2016, 10:36 PM
May 2016

I am thoroughly, thoroughly disappointed by this primary season

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