UPDATE: Palestine in the Platform is Poison for the Party and the General Election

[ericson00]

Last edited Mon May 23, 2016, 05:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Apparently, Bernie and his brass want to put language which elevates the Israel/Palestinian issue and "Palestinian rights" to some grand importance in the Democratic Party platform. While indeed Bernie is Jews, his anti-Israel rhetoric does not resonate with most American Jews, and he is losing the Jewish vote to Hillary badly.

Majorities and pluralities of Americans overall support Israel, as do majorities/pluralities of Democrats (maj/plur depending on the poll but a win is a win).



One of the reasons a greater percentage of Americans (than exists evangies and Jews) stands with Israel is that both America and Israel have been victims to Islamist terrorism. As Islamist terror has increased in the last two decades, you'll notice general electorate Israel support has increased.


Given that Hillary and Trump are tied on the issue of terror, elevating the Palestinians would immediate turn the Democrats into the "soft on terror" party, and possibly help Trump among the broader electorate, as well as further alienate the Jewish vote, which is concentrated in swing states, and has gone down during the Obama years.

Putting "Palestine" and "Palestinian rights" as they continue to attack Israel in the name of Islam, as other jihadist groups do across the world to other countries, will alienate not only a loyal constituency (Jewish voters), but make the party seen as "weak on terror" an elect Trump.

"Palestine" is political poison. And for good reason. I will donate 100 dollars tonight to AIPAC and Hillary's campaign. To all who see my point, join me!

Update: Bernie has forced James Zogby onto the DNC platform committee. I hope the Democrats know that his anti-Israel views are playing with serious fire.

[Scootaloo]

1. Keep 'em coming, Ericson00

I love how you so perfectly encapsulate the minds and outlook of Clinton supporters

Maybe you could call Sanders a self-hating Jew a fourth time?

[ericson00]

2. yea, mainstream Democrats and mainstream America is evil

tho mainstream Green Party also hates Israel. Nader called; he wants his old fans back

[reddread]

3. you will be missed.

seriously, the difference will be notable,
bye!

[Autumn]

16. These things are passed around like a pair of used socks

[Vote2016]

93. How to get that sort of hidden post/total post ratio without getting banned?

[arcane1]

114. By supporting Clinton n/t

[Scootaloo]

9. I dunno about that. But I DO know you called one of our candidates a self-hating Jew three times

At least three times, anyway.

[cali]

21. Disgusting.

[AtomicKitten]

33. wow

[Ken Burch]

38. Nobody said America or Democrats were evil.

Why should Netanyahu get unquestioning public support from a Democratic president? Netanyahu doesn't want the I/P conflict to ever end.

[JRLeft]

96. Far too many brainwashed people in this country. I find it absolutely insane that

so many people support the ultra right wing repressive government Israel. A nation run by Netanyahu.

[ericson00]

105. so we're "brainwashed" when we stand with the only free country (per Freedom House FITW) in the ME

but not brainwashed since we elected a racial, not just ethnic, minority member to lead us. Can't find many other countries that have done that.

[cali]

39. No one said any such thing. YOU, oth

are so far over the line in those hidden posts.

How dare you accuse Bernie of catering to antisemites. Honestly, your comments are carbon copies of what right wingers say.

[AtomicKitten]

23. Thank you

wow

[Autumn]

35. Holy shit. Nasty stuff there.

[Scootaloo]

42. ALWAYS check the Transparency pages

Even Skinner's wised up that the claims of "alert swarming" were BS. A lot of these people are straight-up trolls and disruptors, and you'll know them by what you see under the big yellow button.

[neverforget]

52. thank God for amnesty right? 11 hides but we get to see this tripe

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. Yup... don't ever change.

I hope Skinner's rework of the system still involves some sort of sanction for repeat offenders, because blanket amnesty doesn't work for shit.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

66. I don't recognize the place anymore, Scootaloo. No further text.

[Fast Walker 52]

103. LOL, perfect response

is this guy a hack or what?

[HooptieWagon]

4. Sanders actually LIVED in Israel.

And he continually shows good judgement in his foreign policy chops, a quality that Clinton is sadly lacking. If you liked W's neo-con foreign policy, you're gonna LOVE Clinton's.

[Tarc]

10. Bernie Sanders spent all of 2 months in a kibbutz founded by Soviet Communists

It was not at all a reflection of Israel proper, nor is Sanders a particularly supportive voice for the Jewish state.

[HooptieWagon]

12. He's not an Israeli lapdog, like Clinton.

Most people consider that a positive thing.

[Tarc]

17. Actually, most people consider that a negative thing, as evidenced by the OP

Re-read the numbers, if you need to. The American public is solidly on the side of Israel, our longtime ally.

[HooptieWagon]

25. Support Israel, not allow them to dictate our foreign policy.

Israel is like a spoiled child that misbehaves. Sometimes they need to be given timeout.

[Tarc]

31. Despite how trendy hating Israel is in some circles, you are in a distinct minority on this matter

So, enjoy that.

Our foreign policy and theirs are the same.

[Fawke Em]

47. That's changing.

But, much like your candidate, you don't give a damn what younger voters think, even though they have to live in the world we leave them.

[Tarc]

58. I don't give a damn if they sympathize with the corrupt PLO or the Hamas terrorists, no

When the Palestinian people get rid of both organizations, then perhaps Israel will have a viable partner to discuss the 2-state solution. Until then, the status quo remains.

[DonCoquixote]

78. which of course means

We will spend the next several generations fighting Muslims while turning ourselves into a combination of Imperial guard and Atrocity engine, instead of actually making our own country a decent place to live.

[JRLeft]

97. The Israeli lobby propaganda has worked.

[6chars]

76. good thing this isn't an anti-semitic trope

about Israel dictating our foreign policy.

[Ken Burch]

36. They aren't saying we should never question the Occupation or the settlements.

It's enough to support Israel's existence, period. Unquestioning public support of everything Netanyahu does means being against peace.

[Tarc]

59. Netanyahu won't be there forever.

I think he's a loon, personally. But we'll just have to suck it up and hope the more moderate parties can get into power there.

I miss Ariel Sharon, really.

[Ken Burch]

60. We can't be expected to keep silent until Netanyahu is gone.

He takes public silence as approval. The man is dangerous when he thinks no one disagrees with him.

[Israeli]

83. Yeah .....

Ariel Sharon was a real moderate ....

[ThePhilosopher04]

63. That's two months longer than Hillary.

[Israeli]

82. ROFLMAO.........

Actually kibbutz Sha'ar HaAmakim was founded in 1935 by immigrants from Romania and Yugoslavia.

It belongs to the same movement my kibbutz does ...... Hashomer Hatzair.

" It was not at all a reflection of Israel proper "

It was back then .

[cali]

89. Thanks for that information

[Tarc]

102. Founded by socialist immigrants, yes

Thanks for reinforcing the point.

[Betty Karlson]

100. Wow: that is an impressive amount of attempted red-scaring right there.

Too bad the 20th century is long gone.

[JI7]

5. Sanders supports Israel also and Clinton supports a two state solution

Their position on this issue is the same.

[ericson00]

6. Sanders public dishonor of Israel only aids and abets those who want to delegitimize

the Jewish State. It emboldens/justifies Islamist extremists as well as the far-left (and the alt-right).

[cali]

24. That is just bull.

[Ken Burch]

34. Disagreement with Israeli security policies is not "dishonor of Israel"

It has never been good for Israel as a country for dissent against its treatment of Palestinians to be anathemized.

No government anywhere should get unquestioning public support from anyone...especially when that government is led by a vindictive maniac like Netanyahu who wants to make sure that Israelis never ever live in peace.

[cali]

40. I admire your patience with this person.

[Scootaloo]

46. Long time spent in I/P builds up quite a thick skin, and a sense of exhausted resignation

[Ken Burch]

50. True dat. n/t.

[6chars]

77. there is a lot of dishonor of israel

un refusing to allow it to participate in forums, boycotting professors and artists, un resolutions that there is no jewish cultural connection to jerusalem and western wall, it goes on and on every day all the time -- fucking iran with its missiles marked "destroy israel" and then all the western leaders praising their moderation and running to do business with them. to be an israeli in the world - and to some degree to be a jew in the world - is to expect to be treated with disrepect and without dignity -- as has been the case for two thousand years -- by the societial elites who are there to deign who is worthy and who is not. and the same folks who demand that palestinians must be treated with respect and dignity are the ones leading the charge against israel and insisting that it is the best way to get israel to be flexible.

[cali]

90. Ugh. I support Israel. I absolutely believe in its right to exist, but

that doesn't preclude criticism of their frightening swing to the right. It certainly doesn't and shouldn't preclude condemnation of illegal settlements. The retiring defense minister spoke with clarity about this in his resignation speech. Do you think he's dishonoring Israel?

[6chars]

101. dishonor is something more specific

There is discussion about what constitutes legitimate criticism or not. But with dishonor, the intent is not to critique, it is simply to humiliate, delegitimize, demean, exclude. An obvious example might be the Iranian government painting flags of Israel on the ground of entrances to buildings so that people may step on it. A fair proportion of UN resolutions also fall into this category. Then there are things like leaving Israel off of maps, not recognizing its seat of government as its capital, barring Israelis from participating, harassing any Israeli who comes to speak or who wins an award, accusing it of pinkwashing, never mentioning its contributions to rescue missions, etc. yes, this takes away the honor of what the country and its people have accomplished. There are plenty of other groups in the world that are dishonored and disrespected regularly. When you know this is happening, it certainly makes you less inclined to trust in a lot of ways. Anti-Israeli terrorism, vandalism, etc. of course this is meant to make Israelis feel lessened. But when the rest of the world kind of says anything is ok - any story, any action as long it is directed against "Zionists."

My point is, if we are to agree with Sanders that Palestinians should be treated with dignity and respect, and that this is necessary for them to come to the peace table, it should be pretty obvious that the same applies to Israelis. The continual torrent of criticism is largely lacking in respect. Criticism can be done with respect. For example, in an annual performance review at work, a good employer can critique the performance without dishonoring the person, while a bad employer starts with the ad-hominem. At the level of nations and international relations, this disrespect has the effect of creating an us-against-the-world mentality that makes it much more difficult for an Israeli politician to offer compromises and still stay in office. Similar dynamics hold for the Palestinian population, as it is hard to say that the Arab world, for example, has treated them with a lot of respect in spite of a lot of lip service. The US does a mediocre job of respecting Israel and Palestinians, The rest of the world is basically disrespectful of Israel -- which does not really make them respectful of Palestinians.

[ThePhilosopher04]

64. Bullshit.

[cali]

7. Actually, there are differences

[ericson00]

8. hence why the grassroots pro-Israel movement, which is broadly supported

hence the poll numbers will help throw Bernie and his BS candidacy as well as stance on this issue into what Trotsky called the dustbin of history.

[Ken Burch]

32. Bernie's candidacy is not bullshit.

He's the only candidate this year who stood up for the powerless and the oppressed. HRC would be running as a conservative(that's what running as a centrist means) if Bernie hadn't run.

You have no reason to hate the guy. All he is guilty of is fighting for justice for all.

[cali]

11. Marriage equality is political poison! We can't have it in the party platform

Same old crap.

[Scootaloo]

13. From the same old assholes, too n/t

[cali]

15. And some brand sparkly new ones

[Scootaloo]

18. And now I have the mental image. Thaaaaaanks

That was a damn dirty trick, Cali

[ericson00]

19. Israel is the only country in the middle east that recognizes

same-sex marriages of any sort and have protection for gays.

The far-left hypocrisy and "pinkwashing" bit exposes anti-Semitism for what it is.

[Ken Burch]

29. Fine. But that doesn't justify the settlements and the Occupation.

Nothing can justify either of those.

The settlements are simply a right-wing ideological want and the Occupation makes it impossible to get the Palestinian side in this to consider changing anything.

It's demagogic to play gays and Palestinians off against each other. Both are historically oppressed groups.

[Scootaloo]

37. Is there a word for this?

You know, where someone exploits one group of people to justify abuse against a second group of people? It's a pretty specific and regular tactic, so I think there ought to be a word for it, but I don't know what it is.

[m-lekktor]

41. There is for this particular situation and they call it Pinkwashing.

Here is a definition of it I just googled. pinkwashing - the cynical use of gay rights to distract from and normalize Israeli occupation, settler colonialism, and apartheid.

Here is a group that deals with it. the DU pro Israel wingnuts will call this group of radical gays anti semitic. I have no interest in dialogue with these loons on DU but I wanted to answer your question.

http://www.pinkwatchingisrael.com/

[Scootaloo]

43. Yeah, but as an overall tactic

I've seen it utilized in all sorts of situations, not just this particular flavor

[ericson00]

56. Right, just like internatsionalnyy dolg

As justification for trying to make skew lines "intersecting." "Intersectionality" of the Islamic Palestinian cause and western movements is a communist ploy.

Um, you need standards to judge nations by. Israel meets true Freedom House FITW standards. Palestinians don't. Sorry, but Israel is a winner, Palestinians, not so.

[JRLeft]

99. We are witnessing apartheid.

[SpareribSP]

14. Bernie obvious isn't anti-Israel

He may however be anti-Netanyahu.

[VulgarPoet]

115. I'd think anyone paying attention would be anti-Netanyahu.

Since when do we embrace right-wingers? They've been murdering Palestinians for how long? My fiancée put it best: "I love the Israelis, but I cannot stand Netanyahu's administration".

[Autumn]

20. Everything is poison for the Circle D party. Healthcare? Poison. Gay marrage? Poison

Free college tuition? Poison. The Circle D party is very ineffective. But one thing is clear, if it's good for the people it seems to be poison for the party.

[cali]

26. Spot on, Autumn

[Ken Burch]

22. It's not "anti-Israel" to say the settlement project is wrong and the Occupation is excessive.

It's not "anti-Israel" to admit that everything Netanyahu has done in the name of "security" has been both brutal and a failure.

The status quo doesn't work, ericson. None of it is good even for Israel and Israelis.

And there is no possible way of ever getting the Arab/Muslim world to accept Israel without Israel accepting a viable Palestinian state. The current situation can't be maintained indefinitely and nothing other than self-determination for Palestinians can ever be legitimate. Put simply, nothing else can ever work.

[Israeli]

85. + 100 . nt.

[Vote2016]

94. this ^

[EndElectoral]

27. May be political poison, but it's the moral thing to do

[QC]

28. You know, there's a party that is already in line

with your beliefs on economics, foreign policy, and the like.

There's no need to turn this party into an imitation of that other one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. NO WE CAN'T

and first red baiting and now self hating jew... I gotta say, you are not precisely subtle.

[tritsofme]

44. Hillary simply isn't going to agree to this nonsense. She is a strong defender of the Jewish state

and will be a good friend once in office. After her great speech at AIPAC along with her strong denunciation of the BDS hate, I have no doubt she will not allow this sort of BS to stand.

[ericson00]

45. This could just b a deperate ploy on Bernies part to

Get her to agree to other stances of his, bc he knows he will have a hard time with this.

[tritsofme]

48. It's never gonna happen. This really doesn't even concern me.

Team Bernie lost, they need to get over it.

[jillan]

49. There is so much wrong with your post, I don't know where to begin. But I'll start with AIPAC

AIPAC is an extreme right wing organization. Goppers support them. Their main concern is Israel and making Israel a Jewish state no matter what.

The do not represent the Majority of Jewish Americans which tend to be liberal.

Here is a chart that will show you that the majority of American Jews are liberals.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jewvote.html

American Jews overwhelmingly support a 2 state solution which includes Palestine!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-elsner/american-jews-overwhelmin_b_6107430.html

Palestine is not political poison. What is political poison is kowtowing to Bibi, who is Israel's version of Dick Cheney.
As an American Jew I have been very proud of Obama and Biden for putting their foot down with Israel when needed.
It's been a first step. And I am afraid Hillary (and Trump) will erase all that Obama has accomplished in holding Bibi's feet to the fire.
Yes, Israel is our ally BUT sometimes a friend needs to tell another friend when they are being an asshole.

[cali]

51. There's so much wrong with almost every post in this thread

from Hillary supporters

[oberliner]

54. Most DUers agree with Bernie on this one

By a large margin.

[ericson00]

55. 2016 isnt an DU election

Its one of the general electorate of ´Merica. Dems need to win to keep protectionist, isolationist, antiHispanic Trump out.

[Jake Stern]

57. The more things change. . . . . . .

"Johnson ain't gonna sign that civil rights law for black folks, is he? Don't they understand voters just don't go for that kind of thing? The Democratic Party won't win an election for dog catcher if he does that!"

[JSup]

61. I don't think...

...a foreign country should be mentioned in our platform at all.

The Israel/Palestine thing is a clusterfuck that is their own fault (both of them) because constantly retaliating does nothing but breed more retaliating.

Edit: We should get our own house in order before we try supporting rights for other people.

[ThePhilosopher04]

62. The truth is, most Americans could care less, and don't consider it a major issue.

But I applaud Bernie for standing up for the rights of the oppressed. He's not afraid to do the right thing, regardless of political blowback. That's why he's the only candidate who is truly Presidential and capable of representing the under served in this country. He gets it. God bless him!

[runaway hero]

65. why is this guy still here

this person is not a liberal.

[ericson00]

67. ummm when majorities/pluralities

support Israel, we'll call the shots. The end.

[ThePhilosopher04]

70. He wouldn't know liberal if it hit him in the ass.

[Israeli]

86. :)......nt.

[ericson00]

71. OK, I guess the mafia, castro, etc. all killed Kennedy

so u and ur CTs aren't all that crazy...

except that as I showed above, majorities/pluralities of America still support Israel against their terrorist enemies




read and effin weep

[Ken Burch]

88. You can't just label ALL Palestinians as "terrorists". n/t.

[cali]

91. Sure he can. That meme is dehumanizing but that's what this poster believes

[Scootaloo]

69. Because of his avatar n/t

[ericson00]

72. I stand with the majority/plurality of the party this blog is named for...

and the American people as a whole.


DEAL. WITH. IT.

This is not Europe. America is a pro-Israel, pro-Jewish country. Now and forever!!!!!

[Scootaloo]

73. No, you stand with bigots who think calling Jews "self-hating" is okay.

And you're looking awfully lonely with that. Where are your friends? Where are all the people who are supposed ot be standing there with you, that mighty chorus all yelling that Jews who disagree with your hate must be self-hating?

Nah. You don't stand with shit Ericson00.

[Israeli]

87. + 100 . nt.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. Gee, if only there were some issue Sanders supports that IS supported by a majority of Americans

that is trending towards increased favorability the way marriage equality has, that is obviously and clearly the RIGHT thing to do, that could be adopted enthusiastically by the nominee and the party platform, and that would also help get Millennials to the polls.

Hmmm, gee, whiz.

Wow, hey, too bad there isn't.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

75. Palestinian rights should be in the platform. It's the right thing to do.

[ericson00]

104. electing Trump is the right thing to do?

not for 12 million economic migrants doing what anyone would do, not for the environment, not for abortion rights. The Palestinians aren't worth it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

106. I'm not voting for Trump.

And, the Palestinians are worth it as much as the Israelis are.

[ericson00]

107. Israelis don't go around the world blowing themselves up and hijacking planes

as have the Palestinian leaders and their followers have over the years. Sorry, there is such a thing as merit, earned by good behavior.

Americans broadly support Israel. Not only would Jewish voters (who donate/work for Democrats in rather large number) leave, which would hurt in swing states like OH, FL, PA, but the gentiles who support Israel (and number more than evangelicals in this country, by a lot) would leave because the association Americans have with Palestinians and terror is strong, for good reason, and Islamist terror is kind of a political issue nowadays.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

108. But, Israelis do bomb, assassinate, imprison, torture, Palestinians and occupy their land.

Good behavior? Merit?

[ericson00]

109. not only do I realize Israel protects itself from terror against those who threaten it

but the American electorate also sees it as I see it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

110. And, the American people were convinced we were protecting ourselves (and Israel)

when we invaded Iraq.

Didn't work out that way.

BTW "They do it so we do it" is a piss poor excuse for murdering civilians for either side.

[ericson00]

111. whats more important? You ultra minority view on Israel/Palestinians, or a party that appeals

to enough of the electorate to get more votes than Trump?

"Palestine" is a big time losing political issue. You and other progressives need to face it, and drop the issue. It flies in Europe, not AMERICA.

Also, the Iraq war is over. Not everything is the Iraq War.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. American Exceptionalism now? Is "doing the right" thing confined to Europe?

The Iraq war is over? I guess all the shooting and bombing there are just overly jubilant displays of peace loving.

[underthematrix]

79. I think we should leave the Israel/Palestine thing alone.

Netanyahu is doing all the work for us. He has disrespected President Obama, the most admired man in the world. Let Netanyahu keep talking and digging that hole deeper and deeper. Just grab your popcorn and grape juice and sit back and watch.

[ucrdem]

80. LOL, I heard him talk about Palestine all of once, when he was asked about it in a debate.

And now after a year of wall-to-wall Clinton bashing he wants to hang IP around her neck? Doesn't work that way.

[snowy owl]

81. Ok. That's his belief.It's a process.We keep saying that.Let it unfold and rant about the result.

Dumb to make a big deal of rumors and proposals. It's not like everything he wants is going to make it in. Sometimes I think some people on this site just ike to rile other people up. No big deal.

[Tavarious Jackson]

84. A good question to ask is

Why are there no Arab nations backing the Palestinians?

[Vote2016]

92. Heaven forbid we should let human rights abuses stand in the way of PNAC's neocon agenda.

[libtodeath]

95. Hey look,another free republic thread!

[Betty Karlson]

98. Nope, it's just something that Debbie can't stomach.

You know what is poison? More status quo, more TPP, TTIP, more war war war in the Middle-East at the behest of Netanyahu's cronies*.

* Like Blumenthal, whom Clinton consulted in direct violation of Obama's order not to do so.

[Bluenorthwest]

113. This OP is definitive of the Amnesty All Stars, here only because the rules were changed with the

game in progress. It is disgusting to see this sort of material here and this sort of material has been consistently on DU for months now. When the community rejected it, the rules were changed to allow it.

[ericson00]

116. update to warn Dems that they're playing with fire given Zogby

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sanders-scores-platform-concessions-from-democratic-national-committee/2016/05/23/e9ee8330-20fc-11e6-aa84-42391ba52c91_story.html