Bernie talking "Colonialism" in Puerto Rico

[ericson00]

Last edited Fri May 20, 2016, 12:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Bernie Sanders, trying to get some votes in Puerto Rico, a commonwealth of America, said this

http://www.thenation.com/article/bernie-sanders-says-us-must-end-colonial-type-relationship-with-puerto-rico/

 “The people of the US cannot continue a colonial-type relationship with the people of Puerto Rico.”

He also talked about PR independence, even tho PR in the past has rejected it (by a landslide margin).

Accusing America of colonialism in PR, like Fidel Castro did, sounds like a communist. It must stop. PR should be the 51st state, but not secede from America. How would its economy survive alone? Why has PR consistently rejected secession? Bernie ought to learn not everyone buys into what in Russian is called "Internatsionalnyy Dolg"

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. And... we are an empire

and this is a valid line of talk

[ericson00]

15. any alternative for this "empire" for PR?

how would their economy survive as an independent nation, especially when their people continue to reject it? How would the people eat, move, live, etc?

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. And PR is doing so well right now, they were the test bed

with Detroit, deal with it, Or not, I really do not give a fuck

[jillan]

2. He's right! That is exactly how we treat PR.

[stevenleser]

6. No, he's not right. PR votes periodically on their status. They chose to be part of the US but not a

state. They could be a state and have a governor and have two senators and at least one member of the house for full representation. They choose against that and against independence each time.

That's not colonialism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2012

[KingFlorez]

11. They are citizens and vote in Presidential primaries

In addition to that, they have a resident commissioner in Congress that votes in committees. You all need to pick up a political science book, because politics didn't begin with Bernie Sanders. He's not 100% right on everything.

[George II]

49. One would think a member of the Senate would be knowledgeable about the relationship....

....between the US and Puerto Rico.

[reddread]

54. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_movement_in_Puerto_Rico

In the mid-century, the "Cointelpro program" was a project conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to surveil, infiltrate, discredit, and disrupt domestic political organizations which it classified as suspect or subversive. These included individuals and organizations involved in the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power movement on the mainland of the United States in the 1960s and 1970s.[73] The "Carpetas program" was a massive collection of information gathered by the island's police on so called "political subversives,". The police documented thousands of extensive carpetas (files) concerning individuals of all social groups and ages. Approximately 75,000 persons were listed as under political police surveillance. Historians and critics found that the massive surveillance apparatus was directed primarily against Puerto Rico's independence movement. As a result, many independence supporters moved to the Popular Democratic Party to support its opposition to statehood.[73]

[stevenleser]

3. Again Sanders weighs in on a complicated issue with simplistic demagoguery.

As you know, PR periodically votes on whether they want to be independent, a state, or keep things as they are. They have voted to keep things as they are each time.

That's Democracy. Sadly, Democracy seems to be preferred less and less by Sanders and his supporters these days.

[Octafish]

9. Please tell what you suggest the United States do with Puerto Rico?

And how do you suggest Puerto Rico resolve its fiscal crisis and its debts to Wall Street?

I don't mind: Your solution can be simplistic.

[Hortensis]

72. Debts can be taken over, restructured indefinitely, forgiven.

Seems to me the question is how PR brings in money in the future and how it will be distributed--most to a small class that spends relatively little there and invests elsewhere or most staying right there multiplying prosperity via good-paying jobs, secondary businesses, etc.

The U.S. investment last century in trying to develop manufacturing and other primary industry in Puerto Rico didn't work, but it could always be tried again when the time was right. Plus, I read once something about someone with an ambition for PR to become another Singapore.

That'd be interesting, all right. Our DIL lived there for some years and would love to return, and it was lovely when we visited, but the idea of living out on a small, unsustainable island, no matter how charming (we'd live in the lush mountains with a distant view of the ocean, they'd be in town ), did not appeal. The idea that conceivably someday we couldn't even afford to spend a week there did not occur.

[chascarrillo]

30. Last referendum, a majority voted not to continue its current status. So much for your Democracy.

[stevenleser]

38. I'm very aware of that vote and all of the controversy regarding what the vote meant. Again...

... you can demagogue the vote to mean whatever you want. It was a complicated result and determining the will of the voters hard to determine. And that was from several groups within PR.

It's not a simple issue. But Bernie's demagoguery about it was very simplistic.

[reddread]

55. lol

keep exporting democracy.
way too much here.

[George II]

56. But I don't believe they voted for either statehood or independence.

[BootinUp]

71. Sadly, I have to agree. nt

[Octafish]

4. Bernie is telling the truth, routine.

When it comes to any political figure paying attention to Puerto Rico, unusual.

[George II]

58. It's quite a stretch to say that Puerto Rico's relationship with the US is "colonialism".

[Octafish]

66. No. Just fleeced now by Wall Street in place of the sugar plantations' owners.

Fleeced to the tune of $11 Billion, in PDF form: http://www.caribbeannewsnow.com/docs/prepa_report.pdf

[anotherproletariat]

5. Oh Bernie...pick a political philosophy and stick to it. Might help if you ever run for

president again. Oh, and try and formulate a plan or two to back up your promises.

[eastwestdem]

10. Oh, so true!! nt

[KingFlorez]

7. This is absurd

Independence has never been popular in Puerto Rico, but Sanders probably doesn't know that, he's just caught up in negative talk about things like colonialism. This sounds incredibly anti-American to me and it's disgusting.

[pmorlan1]

14. Wow

Tell us what you really think KingFlorez.

[upaloopa]

8. I think he doesn't know he is still in a primary race in the Democratic party.

He acts like he is some street activist back in the 60's.

[ericson00]

12. either that, or a Leninist in the 1910s and 1920s

which flopped miserably.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Red baiting

Mom can I keep it? It is so cute, COMMIES ARE SCARY MOMMY...

[upaloopa]

19. That dog doesn't hunt anymore

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Tell that to the OP

I agree, red baiting no longer hunts, It has not for years, but he keeps using it. Why is that?

[ericson00]

21. maybe he was referring to accusing people of "redbaiting"

even tho communism is bad and being one is worse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. So why are you still pushing red baiting

by the way that is Senator Joe McCarthy right there. DO you have lists of sympathizers of Moscow in the state department?

[Armstead]

52. You sound like this...

[Armstead]

50. Song for Ya

[YouDig]

13. "Sounds like a communist" is pushing it, but he does frame everything in very simplistic terms.

[Cal Carpenter]

17. Accusing?

If you need any recommendations of history books, I'd be happy to help.

You get bonus points for the red-baiting. Real subtle.

[Cheese Sandwich]

23. Clinton liberals are very annoying

[ericson00]

24. oh no! classic liberals, instead of the far-left uber-progressives, still exist

[cali]

57. Most limit their liberalism to a handful.of social issues

[Loki]

25. History is so

bourgeois, so elitist, so liberally biased. Poor Bernie, it just get's in his way. Living in the past is so much more interesting, like the 1960's which he seems to never have evolved from.

[UtahLib]

26. K&R. nt

[NastyRiffraff]

27. Now Bernie is really being ridiculous

not to mention arrogant. Does he even know Puerto Rico's history? Does he care? Probably not..it's just another "cause" for him to latch onto, the hell with the actual people living there and what they want.

[chascarrillo]

28. Tell me again how you want to close our borders to Syrian refugees, ericson00.

[Kip Humphrey]

29. He said.. He would protect self determination for PR whether they vote for an improved current

commonwealth, statehood as in THE 51ST STATE, or independence. HE SAID, it is up the the PR people to decide, not the federal government.

FOR ALL DU:

THE LAST PERSON WHO IS INFORMED ABOUT BERNIE SANDERS IS A HILLARY SUPPORTER.

PLEASE DISREGARD WHAT THEY SAY IF WHAT THEY SAY SERVES HILLARY.

Thank you.

[NWCorona]

31. Which is better. What Bernie said or this?

[ericson00]

37. I like what she said,

Its forward looking and not straight out of a manifesto or writings of Ilyich.

[stevenleser]

39. Yep. If the world concentrated on 50-100-200 year old grievances all countries would be in

perpetual world war.

[cali]

62. Yeah, AA folks should just get over slavery. Jews should shut up about the holocaust

The nerve of those Armenians.

[treestar]

69. I would hope that would be possible, someday

It depends on the grievance, but one would not want to condemn people to suffering forever on a subject, especially when it is no longer happening, and the people it happened to are long dead.

I'm over whatever happened to my ancestors, but in that case it is fully justified. Some may have died in the potato famine, but I'm not wiling to kill anyone today over that. I see what stevenleser means. I recall researching, in the 90s, what they were fighting about in the Balkans, and it seemed unreasonable to me that they were killing each other over things that happened in the 14th century.

So your response is oversimplified. There are cases where it is unreasonable to keep flogging a grievance and working yourself up over it.

[neverforget]

33. So far in this thread, Bernie has been called a communist, anti-American and a Leninist.

[Buns_of_Fire]

44. I hadn't seen the "Red" card played in a while.

The "Fear", "Guilt", "Shame", "Ignorance", "Experience", and "Party" cards were getting a little threadbare, so it's good to see that they're finally getting shuffled around some, even this late in the game.

[neverforget]

46. I never would have imagined in 2016 that the Red card would be played

by so-called Democrats. By Republicans, sure it's what they do but not Democrats.

[ericson00]

48. you are aware that during the Cold War,

most Democrats and Republicans were united in beating both the Soviet Union and general international communism, right? Who said these words:

"Communism has never come to power in a country that was not disrupted by war or corruption, or both"

"When we have something we feel strongly about — and in this case it is civil liberties and freedom and what this nation was founded upon, that we should do something to implement international law — and it is international law now, the right to leave a country freely and return freely — that we should put that issue of principle on the table knowing that the Russians are not going to agree to it."

Not Republicans

[chascarrillo]

53. Socialism doesn't mean communism.

[neverforget]

67. Yeah I grew up in the 70s and 80s.

Take your Red scare bullshit elsewhere. The commies aren't coming.

[treestar]

70. Poor Bernie

It's not like anyone has been called a Republican, corporatist, liar, etc.

[Corporate666]

34. Bernie doing what he always does... create a boogeyman and sell himself as the boogeyman slayer

Except he has no clue what the F he is talking about on PR.

[obamanut2012]

35. Long-time Hillary supporter here -- quit redbaiting

[Starry Messenger]

41. Agreed!

This stuff is not necessary.

[brooklynite]

36. How many referenda have the Puerto Ricans had on this subject?

[ericson00]

42. the last one; independence won less than 6% of the vote to statehood's 61% and free assoc's 33%

Bernie missed that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2012

[morningfog]

40. Damn you are really stretching now. In that speech Bernie saud

The people of PR should get to decide if they want to become a state. Why didn't you quote that part?

[brooklynite]

43. Out of curiosity, has Sanders pledged unilateral independence or Statehood?

Or are these just lines for his fan base?

[ThePhilosopher04]

45. You're out to lunch dude. Bernie is 100% correct. Quit red baiting.

[George II]

47. Unbelievable. Only he could drag out the old "colonialism" story.

Does he realize that Puerto Rico is not a "colony"?

[chascarrillo]

59. Only he? Rreally?

You sure about that?

[pinebox]

51. Bernie is correct

[LexVegas]

60. He's going to get crushed.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

61. DC, PR, and the USVI are issues that really need to be settled

I am well aware that the GOP doesn't want to allow the issues to be settled because they will not receive immediate benefit from the additions of the voters in these places.

Puerto Rico either needs to be moved toward independence or moved toward statehood. Personally, I'd be in favor of the "State of Puerto Rico and the USVI." DC needs to be given some kind of representative status (Statehood or something short of statehood that gives them elected representation in the House and Senate); be excused from paying federal taxes; or needs to be annexed by Maryland (DC south of the Potomac has already been annexed by Virginia).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. The Repubs opposes DC, PR, and VI statehood because it will be nine more Democratic Electoral ...

The Repubs opposes DC, PR, and VI statehood because it will be more Democratic Electoral College votes, and six more Democratic senators.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

65. Short run, yes

Long term, the GOP could do pretty well in PR. I'm amazed they don't see that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. I respect the desires of the Puerto Rican people.

They seem to want statehood.

Sovereignty would be an unmitigated disaster.

[pnwmom]

68. Me, too. It should be their choice. nt