2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumFrom Robert Reich's Facebook Page
Many of you who support Bernie ask me what you should do at this point. My suggestion:
1. Continue to work like hell for Bernie, especially given upcoming primaries in California and New Jersey on June 7. Putting aside superdelegates, the difference between him and Hillary Clinton isnt huge. So far, Bernie has won nearly 10 million votes and has 1,499 pledged delegates. Hillary Clinton has won 13 million votes and has 1,771 pledged delegates. California could make a huge difference.
2. Dont demonize or denigrate Hillary Clinton. If she wins the Democratic nomination, I urge you to work like hell for her. Shell be the only person standing between Donald Trump and the presidency of the United States. Besides, as Ive said before, shell be an excellent president for the system we now have, even though Bernie would be the best president for the system we need.
3. Never, ever give up fighting against the increasing concentration of wealth and power at the top, which is undermining our democracy and distorting our economy. That means, if Hillary Clinton is elected, I urge you to turn Bernies campaign into a movement even a third party to influence elections at the state level in 2018 and the presidency in 2020. No movement to change the allocation of power succeeds easily or quickly. We are in this for the long haul.
What do you think?
onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I won't be thrilled about it, but I'd do it because: I don't see either Hilary or Bernie moving to illegalize abortion or stem cell research; neither will move toward selecting justices that want to turn back the clock on same sex marriage; neither wants to build a wall along the Rio Grande; neither wants to renegotiate the Paris climate agreement; neither will appoint Sarah Palin to any position of importance within the government. I could go on.
Our respective factions have differing visions of what it means to be a Democrat, and neither faction likes the other too much right now. Reich's point is well taken, though; the Sanders revolution can survive the election as a faction within the Democratic party, or the nucleus of a new progressive party (or a revamped Green party).
onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)Sorry but I'm not okay with record poverty and 40 million uninsured, I'm not okay that no bankers went to prison and I'm not okay with my granchilds family possibly being wiped from this planet so evil greedy people who already have WAY to much, can get even more. We should all be ashamed, history will NOT be kind.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Donald Trump will address none of the issues you claim to value. Hillary Clinton will likely address at least some of them, and won't create new issues.
As for "What's not to support"? From my perspective, there is a lot not to support about Bernie Sanders, and I'd be holding my nose if I had to vote for him, but I'd readily concede he's a better alternative than Trump.
onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)her numbers are NEVER increasing. Bernie has consistently performed better against trump, handily defeating him. So you go ahead and buy that corporate media propaganda, it is you folks who are going to elect trump by supporting the weakest candidate in modern history. She can't even get half the dems, let alone any of the indies. There are more Indies, than dems, or cons, and they DO vote in the general, couple that with 67% of dems describing her as a liar. If you're being honest with yourself, you know she can't win.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)1768 Pledged delegates to 1494
525 SDs to 39
12,989,134 to 9,957,889 votes
Not corporate media propaganda. Simple math.
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with Sanders supporters is automatically supposed to be falling for corporate propaganda. Has it ever occurred to you that we value different things in a candidate? Ever occurred to you that some of us just don't see Sanders as an effective leader? Ever occurred to any of you that some of us just don't think America is not best served by having another old white male in the White House?
Speaking of corporate media propaganda: that poll showing Trump up 3 that everyone is crowing about comes courtesy of FOX News. It doesn't get much more corporate than that.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)are complicated.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)They vote out of fear of loss or hope for gain, and they select issues or candidates relating to those feelings. In terms of the Democratic primaries, more people have voted for Clinton than Sanders. You may not like it; it may leave you scratching your head; but it is the simple truth.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)You might not like it but, that is a simple truth.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)(It's from "Men In Black"
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)as you can witness right here on DU it is NOT so simple.
onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)everyone voted. When you have to lock people out of voting to win what does that say for your candidate. The only propaganda going on here is Hillary and her supporters lying and lying about vote suppression and outright cheating. Skin color and gender have no bearing on my decision who to support, my support is based only on policy. It's about who is owned and supported by corporate America. You can pretend it's propaganda if you want, the facts prove you wrong over and over. You are entitled to your opinion, but NOT to facts. As far as the corporate media and the candidates they back, that is also very EASILY proven to be Hillary and Trump in the free airtime they've both been given for months, while Bernie has virtually been locked out. Also look at their donors lists, and I'm so sure they're giving millions out of the goodness of their hearts, I have a bridge for sale too.....
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)You check a box on your voter registration. It's not hard. There's no blood oath, no goat sacrifice, no initiation ritual, no quiz -- none of the things I'd favor for party membership. It.could.not.be.easier.to.join.the.Democratic.Party.Please stop spreading this lie that people were locked out.
Primaries are the mechanisms by which parties choose candidates. Independents, by definition, have chosen not to join a party. It's like insisting you should have a say in who the Exalted Ruler of the local Elks lodge should be when you are not a member of the Elks.
Other than that, your post is the same-old-same-old -- it's all lies and the corporate media and a giant conspiracy and propaganda and what's really in the hangar at Area 51 (OK - you didn't say that last part). Why is it so difficult to accept that Bernie Sanders is, in fact, being outvoted?
Hekate
(90,714 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I love and admire the enthusiasm over in Bernieland (I say that without snark or rancor). But I'm really, really tired being treated as it we're no better than Joe Ricketts and Sheldon Adelson.
onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)Trust democrats. They don't. #Blocked
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)They have been taken over by corporations, maybe you're okay with fucking over 40 million people but I'm not. And don't bother responding to me, you just earned yourself a stop on my ignore list.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)You won't respond, but you'll see this. You'll log out and see if that SOB responded. It's what most of DU does with their ignore list.
Of course I don't know you. You don't know me either.
themaguffin
(3,826 posts)One can say that Bernie can't even get half the Dems. Most Republicans voted for someone NOT named Trump.
Let's drop the bullshit especially the "if you're being honest with yourself" bullshit. Grow up.
onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)themaguffin
(3,826 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #8)
Post removed
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)You need to check out his past a little more closely. He is a s much a political animal as Hillary. She is no more dishonorable than Bernie. The most "honorable" person in politics today is the President and he has taken much the same flack from purist Dems as Hillary. Bernie and Mrs. Bernie are not as "clean" as you might want to believe.
merrily
(45,251 posts)I don't know where Hillary supporters got the meme that Bernie supporters don't realize that Bernie is a politician, but it couldn't be dumber or wronger. We know he is a politician. Does his being a politician mean he is the same as Hillary? Hell, no.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)3,031,245 more voters liked Hillary better than Bernie Sanders -- so far.
It's never simply that we have different views; different priorities; different things that we want in a candidate. No -- it's always that we've fallen for "Rovian crap" (despite Bernie's acceptance of an invitation to debate on FOX), or that we've fallen for corporate media lies (interestingly, the Poll showing Trump +3 over HRC comes from FOX, but believe what you want).
But thanks for your post!
merrily
(45,251 posts)Not who you liked better. Not whether you are allowed to have different views--as if I could stop you from having whatever view you want, etc.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Both hold similar views on 80+% of issues.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)that you can NOT call a Bernie supporter a Trump supporter. You understand how this works, yes?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)No qualifying clauses, no hedging, if's, and's or but's. Just say it: "I will support the Democratic nominee for President, no matter who it is".
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)As for the comment, "she'll be an excellent president for the system we now have," that's exactly what I'm afraid of. The last thing we need is someone who's excellent at running a shitty system. Don't settle. Change the system.
DookDook
(166 posts)it would shift the entire conversation to "How can Secretary Clinton win over those people who like Bernie?" or "See, he's really a Bernie or bust person." So by putting in the line about how Yup, if she gets the nod we'll all pull behind her because what else are we going to do? Well, I know that I've got a plan B if Sanders doesn't get the nomination that involves supporting the most progressive candidate that's running.
I also think that this line from No. 2 is also telling that he claims that, "shell be an excellent president for the system we now have." I don't think that that is such a good thing for us. Look at the direction that the country is going, we're concentrating the wealth into fewer and fewer hands and squeezing the middle class out of existence, so if she knows how to pull all the levers of power and 'get things done' what is the country going to look like after she's had her run with it? What is the next economic crash going to look like? And who are they going to go to to get to bail out the bankers? What will we do when we find that we've poisoned all the ground water and the oceans are dead?
onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)They ARE going to kill the fucking planet for my grandkids, and their family. I will NEVER support that. Ever!
DookDook
(166 posts)It was one of the reasons that my wife and I made the choice to not have any children. We've made plenty of other lifestyle choices to try and help the planet and we realized that our small effort wasn't going to do too much to stem the tide so we came to the conclusion that it wasn't fair to the planet and it wasn't fair to whatever new person that we would potentially create.
CorkySt.Clair
(1,507 posts)Whether that's Bernie or Clinton. That is a FACT.
Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)Let's all join the herd and run of the cliff smiling.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)...especially to those who are voting for their 2nd or 3rd choice candidates.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)pengu
(462 posts)I agree with #1 and #3.
seekthetruth
(504 posts)Can't support Clinton at all until she adopts a progressive platform. Especially for the earth's sake.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I think we all agree that we don't want President Trump. You indicate that you could possibly support Clinton if she made some platform changes. What specifically would you want to see?
seekthetruth
(504 posts)I am opened minded, and I do agree that there are certain things that can be compromised over, but given the historical trends and current state of our economy, our healthcare system, infrastructure, and energy consumption rates along with how we obtain energy, I feel there is little to compromise over if I stand for a progressive platform. I do agree that the various purity tests that many Sanders supporters always fall back on can seem to be tiresome, but they are based on certain "absolutes" with respect to the environment, war, and many other matters.
So, in essence, this is what Mrs. Clinton would absolutely have to do to earn my vote both in private (i.e. behind closed doors with other politicians, lobbyists, etc.) and to the public:
- immediately give back any campaign contributions that she has received from various corporations that exist in the oil, pharmaceutical, and banking industries
- support a complete and total ban on fracking
- support a framework of moving to a single-payer healthcare infrastructure. Of course, keep the ACA....but move towards single-payer
- support revised Glass-Steagall act which prohibits the intermingling of commercial and investment banking
- support for cap and trade on CO2 emitters
- a pledge to overturn Citizens United, and support the complete end to SuperPACS, thus relying only on individual contributions for campaign funding. And to nominate SCOTUS Justices who support such policies
- gun reform (a given....I do agree with her positions on this)
- a pledge not to engage in further military action in any Mideast conflicts (unless we're directly attacked), and to support a policy of supporting other Mideast countries taking the lead to combat terrorism
Those are the main things she'd need to support to get my vote. However, given her past performance, I highly doubt I could trust her. I distinctly remember her frantically shouting that universal healthcare would never happen only to hear about her support for such legislation a few weeks later......just one example of her flip-flopping.
seekthetruth
(504 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Thanks.
seekthetruth
(504 posts)Since no other candidates have made any paid speeches at the present.....I think she needs to keep her word. She should release all of them.
Doubt that she will......
eastwestdem
(1,220 posts)to see beyond their own selfish wants.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)over Hillary, and believing the worst.