2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe (false) Nevada Talking Points
Man, there sure is a lot of anger over what happened. Here are the talking points:
1. Hillary already won. The Clark County "flip" a while back was a fluke/fraud by Sanders people
Why it's false:
The Nevada caucuses are tiered. Caucuses at the precinct level (1) choose delegates for the county level, and (2) proportionally assign twenty-three delegates for the national convention. Caucuses at the county level choose delegates for the state level. The caucus at the state level chooses twelve more delegates for the national convention (which is yet another caucus, BTW). Somewhere in that mess are some at-large districts.
The folks claiming that the flip is bogus have offered up only one piece of evidence: the fact that it happened. They assume/claim that a flip simply should not be possible.
Since it's a caucus, there's realignment. In a close race (this is a close race) it's entirely possible to flip the "winner" from one level to the next with nobody doing anything evil, illegitimate, or wrong. The flip at the county level wasn't bogus, it was just an artifact of that system. The flip is a good indicator that it's a bad system, but it is not an indicator of cheating.
2. Ignore/deny actions by the chair (Roberta Lange)
Plenty of examples around here. Here's one. Here's another. In both, there's simply no mention at all of the chair's actions.
It's fine because it's not technically illegal or something.
And there's this thing. It's just a bait thread.
Why it's misleading:
Even if it won't change the outcome, the appearance of cheating still delegitimizes the process. In a democracy, an election that looks like bullshit robs the victor of power. Besides, you can bet your asses this will be played up in the GE and midterm to no end, especially if Trump loses. Roberta weakened the whole party. If the DNC doesn't rectify it openly, the damage will take a few election cycles to undo.
3. Pretend the Sanders people got pissed off for no reason
You can see this in some of what I've already linked above. It pretty much goes hand-in-hand with glossing over Roberta's behavior.That was when the vote to approve the rules as written — Roberta's Rules versus Robert's Rules, as some Sanders backers dubbed them — was conducted by voice vote. The motion, seconded by a Sanders supporter, passed — which is when the room, in Ralston's phrasing, "erupts." Ensuing speakers, including Sen. Barbara Boxer (a Clinton supporter), were interrupted by a vocal group of Sanders supporters at the front of the room.
Why it's bogus:
Anger is an expected response to being cheated and shat on. Boxer should know better than to talk down to an angry crowd. In fact, I know she knows better--she was just egging them on and it worked.
4. Claim that the delegates who were removed were removed for good reason
Why it's not true:
We don't actually know why they were removed. Ostensibly, it's because they were not registered as democrats, but we don't know how that happened. They had to have their credentials checked earlier in the process, so the fact that they made it to the state convention at all means they were registered as democrats at some point. There's a statement from one person purporting to be a delegate who changed his own registration. It's not verified at all, but even assuming that it's true it only explains one of the 60+ delegates removed.
So we don't really know what happened. With the odd pattern of democrats getting their registrations purged all over the US, it seems a teensy bit suspicious.
5. Call Bernie's people bullies
A smattering of threads from GDP letting us know what irrational monsters we are: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511979801 http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511979137 http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511978506 http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511981063
It would also appear that chalk-marking is worse than face-punching now.
Why it's false:
It's just a guilt by association argument. "THIS asshole likes your guy, so you should stop liking your guy." I made a thread questioning it a little while back, and got the expected responses from the expected responders.
6. Assert that Bernie has't done enough to reign in their behavior.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511979926
Why it's bullshit:
First, it's absurd. Nobody can possibly have enough time to denounce all the bad behavior of millions of people. But beyond that, it's just a moving target. If he denounces it they'll just demand he denounce it harder. Case in point: he denounced "BernieBros", but the loudest complainers gave him zero credit and still make the same attacks today. It's a game with no way to win.
Democrats in power are making their own party weaker and more fractured by the day. We're expected to believe it's all the fault of Sanders while we're simultaneously to believe he's ineffectual and powerless. That's just amazing! Meanwhile the republicans are rapidly stitching their Frankenstein monster back together and gearing up for the GE where everybody is allowed to vote.
Good luck in November; you're going to need it.
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Maedhros
(10,007 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)
Dem2
(8,168 posts)This will end well...
YouDig
(2,280 posts)Nobody's fault but their own. Then his supporters got angry and violent. Good thing his campaign will be over soon.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)YouDig
(2,280 posts)2cannan
(344 posts)Another really good summary of what happened:
When the System Feels Rigged, How Surprising is Convention Mayhem?
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/05/16/when-system-feels-rigged-how-surprising-convention-mayhem
apnu
(8,756 posts)Quote:
4. Claim that the delegates who were removed were removed for good reason
Why it's not true:
We don't actually know why they were removed. Ostensibly, it's because they were not registered as democrats, but we don't know how that happened. They had to have their credentials checked earlier in the process, so the fact that they made it to the state convention at all means they were registered as democrats at some point. There's a statement from one person purporting to be a delegate who changed his own registration. It's not verified at all, but even assuming that it's true it only explains one of the 60+ delegates removed.
So we don't really know what happened. With the odd pattern of democrats getting their registrations purged all over the US, it seems a teensy bit suspicious.
What if, early in the process, those delegates should not have participated in the process but were allowed to on the district or county level? Then it's found out later they shouldn't have been involved because of registration and are tossed. I hope we get the opportunity to find out if the early stages of Nevada's process screwed up or not. That will prove or disprove many conspiracy theories.
It is suspicious, but I think we are seeing this for two reasons: 1) Bernie's an independent outsider who's drawing in other outsiders to the party in a sudden rush and the patchwork system the Democratic party can't handle that strain. 2) people are actually looking at the process and seeing all of its rough edges, inadequacies, and abuses. And they are calling attention to it.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)The point I was making is that we don't really know what's going on with the excluded delegates. We would if the Nevada Chair had bothered to follow the regular order. You point reinforces that since it presents yet another possible explanation besides the "they were too stupid to register properly" line we keep hearing.
Thanks.
apnu
(8,756 posts)Living on the Internet in the Social Media age, we now discuss things in 200 characters or less. Its is impossible to have a reasonable or intelligent discussion with such limitations. So things get boiled down to inaccurate statements like that. Snark, sadly, fits very nice in small bites, so that dominates almost all conversations online today.
What a pity.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Skinner's system works.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)It's at least Vatican high today.
msongs
(67,409 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)The bottom line is Bernie lost the state by five points...thus the delegates should reflect that...now the Bernie camp pulled a cruze and tried to steal what they did not earn...in April as for May well CNN has a recording which basically has the higher up in the Bernie campaign telling their supporters to take over the Nevada Convention...Bernie looks worse and worse every ['day.
ProgressiveEconomist
(5,818 posts)"stole it fair and square", and then the real Democrats in charge set things straight again.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...at the county level you also have to be a registered Democrat to qualify as a delegate. All the same people that "stole" the county phase by doing that nefarious duty of showing up also went to the state level where all of the sudden they were no longer registered Democrats. How does any of that add up to "stole it fair and square"? They followed the rules and took the county level and they would have taken the majority of the state level had their registrations not magically flipped/disappeared.
ProgressiveEconomist
(5,818 posts)de-registered as Democrats in the meantime, to "protest" "Democratic Establishment" unfairness. Do you know of any evidence of that, one way or the other?
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...my thing is, these are people that were registered Dems and showed up expecting to be counted but weren't. That doesn't sound like someone who would intentionally sabotage themselves by changing their own registration.
Is it possible some did? Sure. Is it likely on the scale that it happened? Questionable.
dchill
(38,501 posts)And climate change is not real.
ProgressiveEconomist
(5,818 posts)600 county delegates for Bernie. About 10 percent renouncing their Democratic Party registrations since then wouldn't surprise anyone, given Bernie's admitted "appeal to independents"
dchill
(38,501 posts)ProgressiveEconomist
(5,818 posts)cannot renounce their Democratic Party registrations " in protest". Many of them have viewed the Party with disdain for years and never were real Democrats, except temporarily to support Sore Loserman Sanders.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...unfortunately, the people who need to get this information into their heads are already too far into Hillary-land to see outside of it. What happened in NV is a travesty and it couldn't be clearer that something odd happened to flip/disappear 60+ Sanders delegates credentials, costing him the majority.
Here's the bottom line: Sanders supporters showed up at the county and state levels. It was only after they proved their ability to show up at the county level that their registrations suddenly altered. I call shenanigans on that.
I've been enjoying your posts lately and you definitely add to the discussion. Thanks for contributing.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)asshole Drumpf
This is a place for liberals...why are people who will facilitate Drumpf here?
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)the Democratic party but you are going out of your way on the internets to attack the party.
Just so everybody here knows.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)While I certainly like the platform of the democrats better than that of the republicans, I thoroughly hate both parties. Individual democrats are alright, as are individual republicans. But the (D/R)NC can both go to hell.
My reason is about a 50/50 mix of corruption and that "party loyalty" bullshit you're pulling right now.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)be voting against Drumpf.
Tell me I am wrong, I would love to welcome you aboard the liberal train.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)I'm not banking on being infinitesimally less unpopular than Trump.
I'm not running a campaign on exclusion of new voters.
I don't make my points by beating up on spouses, making fun of hair, or retconning other's lives.
I don't have to lie about facts to support my decisions.
So I don't need even a single goddamn scrap of luck.
But Hillary and her tribe around here do. Bernie is handing her and the DNC a solid platform and an energized new generation of voters on a silver platter. All they had to do was be a tiny bit gracious. But all they did do was slap it away and hurl insults.
Good fucking luck with that plan. Luck is all you've got and you'll desperately need it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)* On Saturday at the State Convention, after all of the alternates were seated, Hillary Clinton filled 1,695 of her delegate slots and Bernie Sanders only filled 1,662 at the State Convention — giving Clinton a 33-delegate margin of victory.
* Clinton only had 27 delegate positions vacant on Saturday. Sanders left 462 vacant. Clinton filled 98 percent of her available delegate slots at the State Convention, and Sanders only filled 78 percent of his available delegate slots.
* In plain terms, the Clinton campaign organized and got nearly all of their delegates to the State Convention. The Sanders campaign did not.
* The remaining potential delegates were ineligible for two main reasons: 1) They were not registered Democratic voters in Nevada by May 1, 2016, and 2) Their information — such as address, date of birth and name — could not be found or identified, and they did not respond to requests from the party and campaigns to correct it.
* Only eight of the ineligible delegates even attempted to register at the State Convention.
* The so-called “minority report” about these ineligible delegates was not written by the Credentials Committee — it was written by national Sanders campaign staff on site. A member of Sanders’ National Delegate Operations Team drafted and arranged for a member of that committee to attempt to deliver an incendiary report that caused chaos and violence at the convention. It was inaccurate, misleading and subsequently discredited by the Credentials Committee.
* The Credentials Committee, the panel that made decisions on these issues, was co-chaired by supporters of both campaigns and the membership of the committee was also equally divided between supporters of both campaigns. This was done to ensure that the entire process was fair, transparent and accountable for both campaigns and their supporters. The committee worked diligently and cooperatively all day, under incredibly trying circumstances, to be fair and impartial in its work.
pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)for putting together and excellent post.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)the calls, they happened, but out of state area codes sent red flags for me
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1983057
And some questions should be asked, and are not
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)I'm not giving any credence to the phone threats until I get some more information.
Even then, it'll just be random assholes unless one turns out to be from the campaign itself.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)it could be a very good old fashioned dirty trick, or a random group of loons.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)I'd be so happy if it turned out to be Brock's people. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's just 4chan.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)they will never acknowledge anything that benefits HRC could possibly be untoward. And I mean anything.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)assaulted someone and now it's ALL HILLARY VOTERS ARE VIOLENT. You should be embarrassed at your argument but I doubt you're thinking that far ahead.
It's funny how eager they are to accuse all Bernie supporters of violence and condoning violence, but when it happens to them...Oh, it's just one person you can't accuse all of us of that behavior.
