Nevada Democrats Screw Over Bernie Supporters

[kaleckim]

And Orwellian Clinton supporters want to focus on claims of damn chair throwing, this week's version of "English only" I guess. Pathetic!

[JaneyVee]

1. Hillary won Nevada months ago.

[metroins]

2. This. Nt.

[kaleckim]

4. That

is beside the point, and is debatable anyway. There's plenty of other threads to say this stuff. If you post here, try responding to the damn video that started the thread.

[metroins]

6. Hillary won Nevada months ago

By the decree of the voters.

[kaleckim]

8. Once again

debatable, since her delegates didn't show up (they are as bored by her as the general public is, I guess). BESIDE THE POINT OF THE THREAD though, since the video addresses the horrible and heavy handed process in Vegas. Try focusing instead of posting all your bumper stickers that you can post in dozens of other threads.

[kaleckim]

3. Debatable, obviously

and beside the point. The Democratic Party should change its name, given how it acted in Vegas. Whether or not she actually won has nothing to do with the heavy handed and undemocratic way the people in Vegas handled the situation. Watch the video instead of just typing something you already think.

[woolldog]

5. For some reason Betnie supporters think that the actual election doesn't matter.

It's all about maneuvering after the fact to get more delegates than you legitimately won and overturn the will of the voters. They're justified in doing that damn it because their cause is so pure.

[kaleckim]

7. Sorry

it's his fault that her delegates are so iffy on her candidacy that they didn't show up? If you want to comment and say this bumper sticker nonsense, pick another damn thread. Try responding to the video that started the thread. Not complex, even for Clinton supporters. It's about the process in Vegas.

[Gavile]

39. "Winning is all that matters"

Weren't those the words of the Hillary campaign?

[HooptieWagon]

10. You have no clue how caucuses work, do you?

[YouDig]

9. Clinton got more votes, Clinton won. Should have been end of story, but then there was

the chair throwing and the death threats.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. To a committed revolutionary the popular will is of no moment.

In fact respecting it is just so much bourgeoisie claptrap.

[kaleckim]

13. Or

the process in Vegas was undemocratic and heavy handed and you all in this thread, every single one of you, refuse to just focus on that. Notice that none of the Clinton supporters in this thread has any interest in just discussing that narrow thing, as if it shouldn't be addressed in isolation. It's chair throwing, and who won in Nevada, anything but what the damn video discusses. If you all want to post your coffee house philosophy and the talking point of the day, there's plenty of other threads. Can one of you be an adult and just address the contents of the damn video? I'm guessing no.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. End of story. They lost

Sanders lost the caucus on Feb. 20. He had no right to the most delegates, even if the Clinton campaign was asleep at the switch for the county conventions. The Sanders campaign simply did not follow through. As the Medium post reveals, the Sanders folks just did not show up; the Clinton delegates did:

Clinton only had 27 delegate positions vacant on Saturday. Sanders left 462 vacant. Clinton filled 98 percent of her available delegate slots at the State Convention, and Sanders only filled 78 percent of his available delegate slots.

End of story. They lost.

https://www.ralstonreports.com/blog/sour-grapes-revolution-rocked-paris-hotel

[kaleckim]

32. No interest

Last edited Tue May 17, 2016, 10:53 AM - Edit history (1)

in debating you on why the incident happened. The process itself was horribly undemocratic and heavy handed, and the actions of the state party were deplorable. The left doesn't have a home in either party, that's for sure. The corporations that DWS threw open the doors of the convention to, the ones largely funding the corrupt likely nominee, have a home in both parties though. Sad, but not surprising, that you can't just analyze the situation in isolation and admit to how undemocratic it was.

[disillusioned73]

29. lol..

the answer is NO.. they can not address it cause their directive is otherwise and the meme must persist.. it's quite entertaining to watch thread after thread the same posts. They really think we are not paying attention.

[Gavile]

36. Popular will can be a dangerous thing

[kaleckim]

12. The new "English only" talking point

There were tons of cell phones around, cameras everywhere. Can you all refrain from the chair throwing comment until you can prove it happened? Someone saying it happened isn't proof. If this happened, we'll have video of it. If you can't produce it, you can't claim it.

Once again though, I realize that this may be too complex for you Clinton supporters. If you comment here, maybe one of you people can be mature, thinking adults and actually address the damn video instead of posting your talking points. There are tons of threads to say the talking points fed to you.

Besides, regarding the supposed death threats, if they did happen, that is horribly wrong. However, I didn't do that and am simply angry by how the party handled the process in Vegas. So, I don't have to defend the death threats (since I didn't do that and don't condone that) in order to critique the heavy handed way everything was handled. Try responding to the VIDEO ABOVE, which is on the process, instead of responding to EVERYTHING ELSE.

[YouDig]

15. Another conspiracy theory from the Sanders camp. AP, NYT, WP, Ralston, they are all lying.

This is why Sanders is losing in the real world. His supporters constantly deny facts, deny math, anything to keep together the narrative. And that works as long as everyone agrees to suspend reason. But it doesn't work in reality, where Hillary got more votes and more delegates and is going to be the nominee.

As for the video, the funniest thing about it is that Cenk doesn't seem to understand that the volume of sound dissipates with distance. He's basing his judgement on the voice votes on a video shot from the middle of the Bernie group. Yeah, no kidding that the Bernie voices sound louder from there. You know how at a football game you can still hear your friend next to you over the thousands of screaming fans?

But I guess with all the other fantasies that camp Bernie has been peddling, suspending the laws of physics isn't a big deal either.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Cenk is a very educated man. The fact he doesn't see what is clearly in front of him...

Cenk is a very educated man. The fact he doesn't see what is clearly in front of him suggests education was wasted on him or he is being purposely deceitful.

[kaleckim]

23. There were cameras everywhere

and a bunch of sources that have a long history of lying about countless stories and issues is not proof. If chairs were thrown then there would be video proof, and you know it, so stop pretending otherwise. Do you remember the "English only" claim? How many freaking corporate media sources (and the WP has not proven itself to be biased towards Clinton, right? LOL!) reported on that too? Did it make it true? Beside the point any damn way. As far as your comment, the process was handled in an undemocratic way through and through, and for what damn reason? She is far ahead, so why be so heavy handed and antagonize the audience? Sorry, but that action was suicidal.

[YouDig]

27. So you don't want to talk about your OP video anymore, huh.

That figures. You're probably embarrassed that you didn't catch how dumb it was for Cenk to measure vote counts based on how loud it sounded from the middle of the Bernie section. If I were you I'd probably try to ignore that just the way you did. But I'm not you, I'm me, so I'm going to remind you of it. You do understand that closer sounds are heard louder than more distant sounds, right?

As far as your conspiracy theories, enjoy them. Multiple independent credible reports of chairs being thrown. Video confirmation of sexist slurs, and even one person needing medical attention. Death threats against the chair of the convention, Jon Ralston published some of her voicemails.

Everyone knows what happened outside of a small group if irrelevant Bernie supporters who cling to conspiracy theories.

[kaleckim]

33. You're talking nonsense

You are boiling everything down to the roll call itself, not the entirely of the process. Regardless, your argument (which you seem very proud of), is that it was clear that the yes votes had it? Is that it? That the mic was close to the nays? The point is that the process wasn't democratic, there was no discussion, and the yes and no votes were close enough to warrant that damn conversation. You can tell by those on stage that they didn't know what to do. The rest of your comment is silly BS.

"Multiple independent credible reports of chairs being thrown. Video confirmation of sexist slurs, and even one person needing medical attention. Death threats against the chair of the convention, Jon Ralston published some of her voicemails."

I will say this one last time: There are multiple CLAIMS and no evidence of freaking chairs being thrown, just as there was with the baseless "English only" propaganda in Vegas months ago. Remember that well orchestrated lie? If it happened, there'd be a video. The voice mail threats were bad, of course, but how does that undermine Sanders supporters in general? That Wire actor attacked a Clinton supporter a few days ago. Does that say something about YOU? Of course not, that is one person among millions of Clinton supporters that did something bad. That's it. People are angry though, and it seems that you have no clue why. None at all.

[YouDig]

34. I'm talking physics. Sound volume dissipates with distance.

Cenk makes a total ass of himself by laughing about how loud the "nay" votes are, apparently totally oblivious to how sound works. Has he ever been, say, out to dinner and noticed that the people at his table are louder than the people across the room? Seriously stupid.

It's impossible to tell how clear the vote was from a video taken from the middle of the Sanders section. The chair thought it was clear, and that's what matters. She's the chair, and the chair determines whether it is close enough for a floor vote. And trying to read the minds of the people on stage is equally stupid as trying to judge votes from a cell phone mic in the middle of the Bernie section. Yes, I'm sure that the people on stage were a little concerned when the Bernie people started acting like a mob. I would be too.

If you want to think that the NYT, AP, WP, Jon Ralston, and everyone else are all lying as part of a big anti-Bernie conspiracy, like I said you have every right to believe that. I won't even bother asking you questions about who you think concocted the conspiracy and what evidence you have. I'll just let you enjoy your conspiratorial fantasies. But don't expect anyone based in reality to believe you.

Yeah, I noticed that the Wire guy beat up his girlfriend. He needs to go to jail. There were like 20 posts here about it yesterday. I have no idea why Bernie people on DU think that's so important. Also not sure what it has to do with the fact that delegates representing Bernie Sanders were shouting sexist slurs, throwing chairs, and issuing death threats. I would advise Hillary not to choose the Wire guy as one of her delegates.

[kaleckim]

38. You're not getting basic things and I'm done doing this with you

The point is that the votes were at least even and the process should have been open for discussion. Try to argue otherwise and pretend that you respect democratic processes. You don't. Your argument is narrow and misses the damn point. Regarding the chair incident, once again, you all did the same thing with the English only meme, tons of media outlets reported on that (they have a tendency to quote the same original source, so it doesn't often take much), you all said the same exact argument then (look, the unbiased, LOL!, even says the Bernie crowd was shouting English only), and it too lacked any credibility. It didn't happen, there were probably a thousand cell phones in the crowd. Besides the point anyway, people were pissed and they should have been.

"I have no idea why Bernie people on DU think that's so important."

Don't know about others, but for me, it shows that you can't talk about "Bernie supporters" based on the actions of a small handful of people, just as you can't talk about "Hillary supporters" based on that one incident. As simple a logic as you'll find and beyond question. The chair throwing and death threats, even if they are true, have nothing to do with the undemocratic process itself and Sanders supporters in general. Provide cover for this all you want, it is part of the implosion of the damn party, don't delude yourself about that. The media likes to talk about how the Republicans are splintering, it applies more so to the Democrats now.

[YouDig]

41. What makes you think the votes were "at least even"? Please tell me it's not a cell phone mic

located in the middle of the Bernie section.

As far as the chair throwing, I guess your argument is that since the NYT got something wrong at one point in the past, then every conspiracy theory you have about them is true. The sexist chants are on video, one person needing medical attention is on video, death threat voicemails are confirmed. Evidently the Bernie supporters who filmed the thing decided not to film their peers throwing chairs. Who knows. Who cares. Given that it's reported widely by multiple credible sources, and is totally consistent with actions of the angry mob that were filmed, it happened.

As far as the Wire guy, like I said he's just a random guy, not a delegate representing Bernie. And it's an isolated incident, which you can tell because of how giddy the Bernie people here got over it. Bernie people doing horrible things happens all the time. Remember when they called Hillary a whore and the whole crowd cheered? Remember the screaming at little kids going to a Hillary event?

And also, people here are actually defending the actions of the Bernie people in Nevada, or denying that it even happened. Accusing the Dem Party of being "fascists" because the Paris casino brought in security to kick out rioting Bernie supporters. It's nuts.

[Gavile]

40. Still no proof of that...

[kaleckim]

45. There is no proof

like the English only lie, it isn't meant to be truthful. It's meant to paint a picture of him. It's also mean to divert attention away from the fact that the party was caught acting that horribly and had no defense. Notice that there is no defense of how un-democratically they acted in the days and hours leading into the incidents on stage, they are now 100% about diverting attention away from a conversation about that. If most of these people aren't paid to push this meme, they're most definitely led by those that are. So you get the chair throwing stuff with no proof, and the voice mails from people claiming to be Sanders supporters. Keep in mind too that these are the same people that invented the "Berniebros" thing (which was debunked by the Interceptor), and pushed the "English only" lie, among many other things. To accept all this stuff on face value would be irrational at this point. If actual evidence emerges, fine. Until that time, it's logical to question at least some of this nonsense and to acknowledge that it is clearly a diversion from what the party was caught doing. Thank god for the internet though, twenty years ago and they'd have gotten away with that without question.

[LiberalFighter]

14. The video doesn't show the whole picture.

Try this account of what happened throughout the day.
Nevada Convention

[kaleckim]

17. I'm open to different viewpoints

but your link begins with someone saying they are a proud delegate of Hillary Clinton. Given how they've acted, their clear (emotional) bias, and their penchant for lying, I'm not interested.

[YouDig]

19. But you think Cenk, who is a proud Bernie supporter, is a credible source. Hmm.

[kaleckim]

25. Is he a Sanders party delegate

and someone directly involved in the un-democratic and heavy handed process in Vegas? If I had a problem with alternative viewpoints, I wouldn't bother coming here. If the tables were turned and it was Sanders supporters that did what happened in Vegas, would you trust a post from a Sanders delegate? I doubt it.

[YouDig]

28. He's a Sanders propagandist who doesn't understand the laws of physics.

You believe him, but not far more credible sources like the NYT or AP or WP. You listen to what Bernie people there were saying - the very people throwing the chairs and doing the sexist chants - but not what Hillary people there. Doesn't seem like you're the least bit interested in alternative viewpoints.

[kaleckim]

35. Nonsense again

I am simply not going to take the time to read an account of THIS INCIDENT from someone calling themselves a proud Clinton delegate. How does that not make sense to you?

I'd also like to hear how the freaking WP or NYT are more credible. According to...? I don't say that because of this incident either. The NYT's coverage of the Iraq War, the trade deals, austerity, the pink tide in Latin America, not to mention this election cycle, has been horribly biased. It is biased towards power, and Chomsky's critiques of the NYT have been proven correct. The WP? You might back Clinton, but can you admit that it is insanely biased towards her? Do I need to link you facts on that, not only its coverage, but also the owner and his connection to Clinton? The WP also published the outright Deloris Huerta lie about "English only", and made a big deal of that too. Did they reporting that make it actually true? Cenk was discussing the undemocratic nature of the process itself, period, and it was undemocratic and heavy handed. The Sanders supporters that did threaten the life of that woman were not only wrong, but they also gave her an easy out. They let their stupid decision be the story instead of what she and the state party did.

I admit that I don't trust Clinton or most of her supporters because of how much you all have outright lied this election cycle, and the consistent cognitive dissonance they've demonstrated. Respect is earned, and you all haven't earned it. I have a background in economics and read from people I disagree with all the damn time, I just respect their opinion. I don't respect most Clinton supporters, and am done with this party.

[YouDig]

37. OK, if you want, just read things that support your biases.

I've read both from Sanders people, from Clinton people, and from neutral sources. It's clear what happened. But if you only listen to Sanders people who don't understand that sound dissipates with distance, then I can see where you arrive at your conclusions.

[LiberalFighter]

20. Read the whole part.

There are critical details that have been left out of the other reports.

[Ohioblue22]

24. Deny anything that doesn't fit your desired outcome.

[kaleckim]

26. Psychologists

call that projection. Go ahead folks, cheer on the implosion of your party. It isn't as if you don't have a history of providing cover for things you shouldn't.

[Ohioblue22]

42. The party is not imploding a certain part of it is having a tantrum

Cause it's not getting it's way.

[kaleckim]

43. Horrible reading

on the larger picture. What is going on is a reflection of how angry and frustrated people are with the establishment in general. The policies have harmed lots of people, and when people seeing a party openly working to undermine the democratic process, they get especially angry. You can't claim to support democracy and at the same time be okay with how this election has been handled in general, or what happened in Vegas. You also have to admit that if the process were more democratic, if independents and newly registered Democrats were allowed to vote openly for example, this election would be radically different. That might win her the nomination, ain't going to in the GE. The polling right now does not look good, and if anything emerges between now and the election, she's in trouble. This incident was so tone deaf, poorly thought out, and unnecessary. They handled the situation that horribly, without any thought about wider consequences, over a handful of delegates, and she has a freaking comfortable lead. This is just the latest, but probably most blatant, situation.

Any rate, I don't think Clinton supporters or the DNC have a full appreciation on how much the country has changed in the last decade or so, and how angry people are.

[tammywammy]

18. Here's another good link

NV Dems

The Facts about the Nevada Democratic State Convention on Saturday

These are the facts about what happened at Saturday’s Democratic Convention. It’s important that everyone understand what happened and why it happened so we can come together and move forward.

It all comes down to simple math:
Based on the county convention results, Bernie Sanders had 2,124 delegate slots to the State Convention and Hillary Clinton had 1,722 delegate slots to the State Convention.

On Saturday at the State Convention, after all of the alternates were seated, Hillary Clinton filled 1,695 of her delegate slots and Bernie Sanders only filled 1,662 at the State Convention — giving Clinton a 33-delegate margin of victory.

Clinton only had 27 delegate positions vacant on Saturday. Sanders left 462 vacant. Clinton filled 98 percent of her available delegate slots at the State Convention, and Sanders only filled 78 percent of his available delegate slots.

In plain terms, the Clinton campaign organized and got nearly all of their delegates to the State Convention. The Sanders campaign did not.

More at link: https://medium.com/@nvdems/the-facts-about-the-nevada-democratic-state-convention-on-saturday-106cc5db3d83#.tlgx3vyix

[Bluenorthwest]

22. I can tell you this, I'll never trust a Nevada casino after this display. That along with Nevada's

Bundy Crew invading Oregon this year have left me with a low opinion of Nevada's ethics. It's also worth noting that the Nevada Caucus was initiated in 2008, heavily promoted by Harry Reid who also steps forward to provide narration of the events he was not present for. The whole thing smacks of the very aspects of politics that turn off the electorate to the process. Reid promoted the Caucus system and he has then complained about the system he wanted each time it has not functioned in favor of his candidate. Nevada has had two contested Democratic Caucuses, both have been won by Hillary Clinton, who is endorsed by Reid.

It's also interesting that most days on DU Hillary supporters make OP's about the flaws of the caucuses and how they are undemocratic and exclusionary. The Nevada debacle actually proves every caucus criticism but instead of driving that point home, her supporters are fine with the debacle because of the outcome. That's not how it should be. That's what turns the electorate off of politics.

[nenagh]

30. Thank you for the video...there in living color for all to see...

The concept of fairness seems discarded in Nevada...and Bernie supporters will remember, rightly so.

[B Calm]

31. +1

[MaeScott]

44. Kicked.

[libdem4life]

46. Just want to affirm your knowledge and patience

with a rather boorish DU choir.

Might makes right, perhaps sometimes. And that's the Bernie message...the sometimes part of it...that the entire Establishment is being challenged and they will pull out all the stops to defend it.

It's happening anyway. Nothing new under the sun.