Ralph Nader or David Brock? who is truly to blame for Bush vs Gore's per curium 5-4?

[reddread]

thanks.

[onehandle]

1. Ralph Nader and the Green Party are responsible for Gore's loss. nt

[LexVegas]

2. Nader. nt

[QC]

3. 300,000 conservative Democrats in Florida

must bear at least some of the blame.

Of course, that doesn't serve the rightist agenda of the loudest posters here, so it is seldom spoken of.

[Trust Buster]

4. Nader.

[yellowcanine]

5. SCOTUS. It was their call. They are to blame.

Not the same thing as saying who is to blame for it being that close in the first place.
Lots of blame to go around there......

[grasswire]

6. are you saying that Brock is responsible for Clarence Thomas...

...and that's how we got George W.?

[reddread]

7. he had some pretty good help. it was a team effort.

could not have been done without Joe Biden.

[msanthrope]

47. Except that his book about Hill came put after the hearings. nt

[reddread]

48. as did the American Spectator garbage

youre right. Biden's baby.
Brock is simply a character assassin who called a brave woman nutty and slutty.
for which he was hired by Hillary Clinton.

[msanthrope]

51. No--he wasn't hired until he apologized to Professor Hill and became partners with

HRC's Chief of Staff, and wrote his book "Blinded By the Right" and sold out everything Ann Coulter told him about Starr's investigation to the Clinton.

Bit of inside baseball for you.

[reddread]

57. did she accept it?

http://time.com/4281036/anita-hill-on-confirmation-what-joe-biden-did-wrong-and-the-clintons/

[msanthrope]

58. That's a fair question. Why not ask her? nt

[reddread]

59. because Im not making the case that appology meant something

judging by her statements, it wouldnt.

[cherokeeprogressive]

8. 11 delegates. Move them from Bush to Gore. Who wins? Those would be the 11 TENNESSEE delegates.

Had he won his own fucking state, he'd have won the election no question.

[bemildred]

9. SCOTUS. nt

[snowy owl]

10. Sandra Day O'Connor

who knew better and lived to regret it. SC not supposed to be political. And they knew what they were doing was wrong at the time.

[reddread]

11. one out of nine?

or was she assuaging a cloudy conscience after the fact.
what was there to lose, for her to cast a different vote?
they could not have cast a larger shadow.

[brooklynite]

12. In my opinion? Al Gore...

He was a mediocre candidate who lost 10 States won by Clinton. If he'd one just ONE of them, Florida would have been meaningless.

[One of the 99]

18. In Jan. 2000 Gore was down 18 points to Bush.

Yet despite Bush outspending him 2-1, a hostile often lying media and Nader taking GOP money to run dishonest ads about Gore; he came back to win the popular vote. Doesn't sound like such a bad candidate to me.

[EndElectoral]

32. As to Gore, his inability to carry his own home state of Tenn was pivotal and made Fla. moot.

The Nader votes weren't the problem there.

Clinton's Lewinsky scandal and impeachment didn't do him any favors.

[Attorney in Texas]

13. Gore made the election close enough to steal. Who chose Lieberman as Gore's running mate - a choice

that drove many FDR Democrats away from the ticket? (I voted Gore but the Lieberman choice almost dissuaded me). Gore made that choice.

Who chose Carter Eskew, Jack Quinn, and Peter Knight (lobbyists for tobacco, big pharma, telecom monopolies, and original affluenza boy, Marc Rich) to give control over Gore's policy team - a choice that drove even more FDR Democrats away from the ticket? Gore made that choice.

Gore began his campaign on third base as a result of being VP and Gore had a weak opponent, and yet Gore managed to fuck it up by "running to the center." This failed model seems to be Hillary's model (except as compared to Hillary, Gore had much higher favorability and trustworthiness numbers among young Democrats and independents).

Gore played a bigger role than Brock, and both Gore and Brock each played bigger roles than Nader.

Nader's role in the Florida fiasco has been exaggerated by neoliberal Democrats those looking for a scapegoat. Exit polling indicated that

(1) half of Nader voters would have stayed home if Nader hadn't run and those who wold have voted anyway were split evenly between Bush and Gore as reflected by the fact that Bush performed 2% better than his actual margin in the 2-person exit poll question,

(2) while only about a quarter of Nader voters listed Gore as a higher second choice than stay-at-home or Bush, a majority of Worker's World Party voters listed Gore as their second choice, and those votes would have more than made up the difference between Gore and Bush so Worker's World Party was more of a "spoiler" (which is what we call a third party who qualifies to appear on the ballot in America - shameful!) than the Green Party's nomination of Nader, and

(3) of the self described "liberal voters" who did not vote for Gore-Lieberman, Bush took 5 of those liberal votes that did not go to Gore for every single liberal vote for Nader instead of Gore.

There is no fact-based argument that Nader was the cause of the 5-4 Bush v. Gore decision. Moreover, it is not as if Nader ran for the Democratic nomination and ran as a third party only after losing the primary (as Lieberman did a few years later). Nader had a rightful place on the ballot as the Green Party nominee. If Gore-Lieberman ran too far to the right to win those votes, that failure is on Gore's shoulders, not Nader's.

[hellofromreddit]

14. It was Gore and the SCOTUS

Gore for his lousy campaign and SCOTUS for interfering.

[One of the 99]

20. You mean the lousy campaign that came back from

and 18 point deficient to win the popular vote?

[Cheese Sandwich]

15. Bill Clinton is responsible for Al Gore's loss - NAFTA, WTO, welfare cuts, banking deregulation,

PNTR with China, allowing media monopolies, allowing organized labor to be decimated, basically selling out the working class and realigning the democratic party as the 2nd corporate party.

Democrats turning their backs on a large part of the working class and ideological progressives, greens, democratic socialists, etc.

That is what put the wind in Nader's sails and gave him that 3% or whatever. It would be better for the Democrats to modify a little and let the Nader voters back in. But probably they can't do it because it would piss off their rich donors and pals.

[reddread]

16. yeah, but. Gore got more votes in Florida, all they had to do was count them

I dont remember Nader ordering the counts to cease?

[EndElectoral]

33. Don't forget Bill Clinton's impeachment on Dec. 19, 1998. That didn't help.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Gore. He was unable to attract enough votes.

Blaming the voters is childish and hypocritical.

Candidates choose who they're going to appeal. Gore chose to appeal to the middle. For some voters he wasn't moderate enough and they voted for Bush. For others he was too moderate and they voted for Nader or sat it out.

Nader was just another candidate trying to convince voters to vote for him and he succeeded to a small measure. Gore and Bush attracted a lot more votes but not enough for Gore to win.

Get over it.

[One of the 99]

19. Not blaming voters

But shouldn't voters take responsibility for the consequences of their actions?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. I voted for Gore in 2000. Am I responsible for his loss?

I voted for Jill Stein in 2012. Am I responsible for Obama's win? Or, McCain's loss?

[One of the 99]

23. If you voted for Gore, no.

But if you lived in New Hampshire or Florida and voted for Nader, yes.

And doesn't Nader himself have a share of responsibility for accepting GOP money to run lying attack ads about Gore?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Well, that's a relief.

So, assuming that Hillary and The Donald are the nominees and I don't vote for either of them will I be responsible if either of them loses? Or, wins?

Does Trump gain a vote if I don't vote for her? Did Gore gain a vote if a Green in Florida or New Hampshire gain a vote if they voted for Nader.

I'm not a math wizard but I do remember that 0-0 = 0.

[One of the 99]

39. If you don't do whatever you can to stop Trump

then you have a share in the responsibility if he wins. Adults take responsibility for the consequences of their actions or inaction, its immature children that refuse to and try to blame everyone else.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Humbug.

If I don't buy a Pepsi and Pepsi goes broke does than make me responsible?

[One of the 99]

46. Dishonest analogy.

As the saying goes, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." So you can play childish games all you want. But if you don't do what it takes to stop Trump, you share in the responsibility for all the damage that he does.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Which is why I'm not voting for Trump or Hillary.

I'm voting against the "triumph of evil" in whatever form or however wrapped it is pretty platitudes and promises.

"Non-cooperation with evil is a sacred duty" Mahatma Gandhi

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right. Thomas Paine

[One of the 99]

50. Then if Trump wins

you have a share of the responsibility of all the damage he will do. As Bill Maher said last Friday, "This is a ‘What Did You Do During the War, Daddy?’ Moment". So you can self-righteously sit on your ideological high horse or you can actually do something to stop Trump.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. I am doing something to stop Trump. I'm voting for someone else.

Isn't that what you're doing?

Ideological high horse? What is that? I'm not an ideologue. I would think that anyone that demands that people vote for one party or one candidate would fit that description.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." Thomas Jefferson

[One of the 99]

54. Unless you vote for someone that actually has the chance to defeat him

you are doing noting. You can lie to yourself about it but in the end you know that is the truth.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. No. I am doing something. I am casting my vote for the candidate I prefer.

Same as you.

[One of the 99]

62. Bull

If the candidate that you prefer has no chance of winning and it hurts the candidate that actually has a chance of defeating Trump, then you are helping Trump. You can childishly try to make excuses all you want Mikey but that doesn't change reality which is probably why you are continuing to argue this.

[reddread]

21. if he had the most votes in Florida, how many did he actually need?

putting the blame on another state that didnt go his way sure takes the heat off a massive state that did, despite GW's brothers best efforts and it took the SCOTUS to seal the deal.
nobody else stopped the recounts before declaring a winner.

[NCTraveler]

24. Nader confirmed one thing.

Few in politics are as ignorant as the "both parties are the same" crowd.

[reddread]

25. none are so forgiving as those who overlook Bush v Gore as the true cause

used to be people had higher expectations of themselves as citizens.
no longer.

[NCTraveler]

26. Read your post multiple times.

Still not sure I get it.

"used to be people had higher expectations of themselves as citizens."

I agree with that. The two parties are the same people really lowered my expectations when it comes to voting. They are simply idiots. Understanding how stupid that crowd was is really about the only good that came from that election. Now anytime someone says both parties are the same they are simply viewed as idiots.

That's really the only silver lining from that election.

[reddread]

27. tell the Iraqis how much better they have it when Democratic presidents let them starve

I think it really depends on where you stand as to how things appear.
Is starvation a better method of killing?
less humane, perhaps, but cheaper!

[reddread]

30. and because of that forgiveness/acceptance/complacency towards theft and treason

we can expect many replays.

[SidDithers]

28. Just Asking Questions, right?...

Sid

[EndElectoral]

29. The Supreme Court

[Kelvin Mace]

31. Whose to blame?

Scalia
Rehnquist
Thomas
Kennedy
O'Connor

[Va Lefty]

35. The Media

"Peter Hart and Jim Naureckas, two commentators for Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), called the media "serial exaggerators" and alleged that several media outlets were constantly exaggerating criticism of Gore....also alleged the media supposedly gave Bush a pass on certain issues"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000#Results

The Media, especially the beltway media hated Gore. Remember all the stories about how he lied all the time and the sighs during the debates when Bush was talking? More than Nader or the felonious five I blame the press. After the first recount The Fla. Senate was going to appoint Bush electors regardless of what any court ruled. They were determined to install W. Remember the "Brooks Brothers Riot?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000#Results

[reddread]

36. well those corporations have great expectations

which dovetailed with the military/security agenda that unfolded.

[Va Lefty]

37. correct

[Freddie]

38. Nader voters in New Hampshire

Caused Gore to lose the election.
If less than half of the 22,000 votes for Nader in NH had gone to Gore, he would have gotten 4 more electoral votes and it wouldn't have mattered who won Florida.
Voting (or not) really does have consequences.

[Maedhros]

60. It was Gore's responsibility to earn those votes. [n/t]

[CobaltBlue]

40. reddread—Al Gore, and his campaign, were responsible for Election 2000.

[reddread]

43. Who was responsible for the per curium decision?

isnt that how we got GW?

[bigwillq]

41. Al Gore

And Joe Lieberman.

[SheenaR]

44. Al Gore

How about he wins his home state and there's nothing to worry about


First person to lose their home state in 28 years. How about that gets some attention

[asuhornets]

45. supreme court...n/t

[MattP]

53. Nader was running hard in swing states on purpose

Anybody defending his role in 2000 has no memory of the time, it happend.

[redstateblues]

55. All you Nader voters out there need to own your mistake

Instead of trying to justify it. Elections have consequences. Thanks for Bush Cheney

[Freddie]

61. Indeed

My BIL voted for Nader. In PA so no real harm done, but it confirmed my observation that he's an idiot at times. He's definitely changed his tune this time and will be voting for HRC this Nov.