It's just so g-damned strange that accusations of election fraud

[boston bean]

only occur when the Bernster loses.

I mean WTF could possibly be going on here?!

[hellofromreddit]

1. That doesn't eliminate the possibility that fraud has occurred. Maybe it was really effective.

I'm not claiming fraud happened, just pointing out the truck-sized hole in your argument.

[seabeyond]

22. It does when every time Sanders lost, accusation be had, it is voters that would have voted Clinton

that had their vote suppressed by the GOP voter suppression actions implemented.

[hellofromreddit]

25. That's an entirely different (and better) argument than OP's.

Congrats!

[Baobab]

95. My argument would be that the stakes are huge because of secret trade deals

that last forever, combined with the fact that it appears that the 20 year long dysfunction on health care may have been intentional, to set us up with a false unnecessary crises in healthcare, higher education, IT, etc, that due to denial of care that would have been free to render because we already pay 2/3 of every health care dollar, and thats approximately what we would save, has killed over a million people- perhaps even twice that, the goal being to force us into a monumentally stupid guest worker program ("Mode IV&quot that will have the effect of chopping wages in some skilled professions by a huge amount. And that this is all being accomplished by suppression of news and secrecy, both parties being in on it. It shows both parties contempt for the democratic process and I hope that those responsible are prosecuted, and spend the rest of their lives in some prison, as its a crime against humanity.

One can read the light grey text below my post for some links that explain the basics that go into this but not all of it. But the missing pieces are easy to find and fill in if one knows a bit about the last 20 years of trade policy particularly economic integration.

[AgingAmerican]

55. It follows the same pattern each time

In states that Hillary must win, party registrations of Sanders supporters are flipped from Democrat to Independent. The party controls this aspect of the primaries, so the problem lies with the DNC. Coincidence?

[bkkyosemite]

64. Exactly that's the OP's answer...it is happening to register democrats who are Bernie

supporters!

[DLCWIdem]

84. voter problems everywhere

Don't kid yourselves there are voter problems in a lot of states its just not publisized by B.S. unless it affects him. For example, in Wisconsin we have lawsuits with voter suppression in the courts right now, of course its not known because Bernie won the state. Theres glitches and rules, but berners believe that the rules were specifically applied against him. Heck, Seth Abrahamson outright said that early voting was there to disadvantage Bernie. Apparently allowing people to vote before Bernie campaigns in the state is a conspiracy against him. Another example, in New York, if you don't vote every year voter registration can be dropped because it prevents voting the grave. That rule was made by the state after Tammany Hall corruption in the early 1900's. People are complaining about Baltimore but that has to do with the mayors race. California is going to pose a problem because many are registered for the Amerivan Independence party instead of non party preference. The only time we hear about it is when berners want to cry fowl but when they win its smooth sailing ahead.

[riversedge]

2. Every time Sanders loses he sues and his fans act stupid.

[puffy socks]

30. Right

Even when they screw themselves its "fraud and cheating."
They didn't register in NY.
And now, because they foolishly unregistered themselves as Dems to make a point, they screwed themselves in Nevada. Its Hillary and the DNC cheating.

[bkkyosemite]

63. Many long time dems had their affiliations flipped or changed. Stop with the they didn't

do it right...bull shit.

[DLCWIdem]

76. She won the Nevada caucaus on election day

You guys take the cake. She won when the votes were cast on election day. There were no accusations of election fraud. The third tier here just put it back to the way the voters voted.

[stonecutter357]

60. +1000

[lamp_shade]

3. It's called stage 4... of 5. n/t

[Renew Deal]

4. Bernie is actually undefeated in 2016

He hasn't lost a single primary if you only count the ones he won.

[Baobab]

49. Do you want a meaningful discussion on this issue or not?

Did you see the Chicago Board of Elections video?

[DLCWIdem]

94. okay meaningful discussion

1. NEW YORK. I wont go into the closed primary or early registration arguement. We are specifically talking about the complaints of dropped registrations. New York, itself, drops registration on voters who have not voted in a while, because there are no voter id required. This is done to stop people from voting the grave.you ever hear of Tamany Hall early 20th century voting the grave, when these laws were changed. Clinton did not go back in time in a Delorean and change the laws just to inconvenience Sanders. Now do you think that maybe, maybe, many of those voters only voted in presidential elections only every 4 years, so their registrations ended up being dropped.

2. ARIZONA. The state GOP is responsible for the voter suppression, not the Democratic party. In fact, where was Sanders when the Dems were fighting the GOP? Oh, I know MIA. Actually, I can sympathize with AZ being from WI we have the same problem with the GOP? I wonder why that hasn't been publisized as much. Oh, I know Sanders won Wisconsin so there is no need

3. BALTIMORE, MARYLAND. Which is mentioned later in this thread. In fact, the poster provided a link to a Baltimore Sun article. Too bad the poster didn't actually read the article. The article mentions 80 provisional ballots that were set aside by a local official. These 80 ballots did not effect the presidential race seeing as Clinton won by over 250,000 votes, they did, however, effect the mayoral race. Incidentally tne articles mentions that these two officials have a longer feud going from before the pres race. Apparently he thinks the local official is slothful, not criminal.

4. NEVADA. According to the one bright dude who dropped his own registration in protest. There were delegates who were disqualified because they did not live in Clark County, delegates who had said they didn't want to be state delegates in Febuary when the precinct caucauses were held, and others whos registration, addresses etc... couldn't be verified. Of those held up 6 were able to be verified. In addition, 8 of Clintons delegates were out too. In addition, Some of the delegates just didn't show up. These statements can be verified by 3 sources, a source here on democratic underground on the twitter account from the person who dropped his registration, a Sanders supporter on reddit and a Clinton supporter at http://medium.com/. In addition this source explains how Sanders supporters essentially organized alternates while Clinton was concentrating on just the delegates at the county conventions. We also know that this was advertised through reddit group. Did you ever think that it could be a possibility that in the haste to get these alternates that maybe you guys just didn't dot the i's and cross the t's. Furthermore, it seems that
there were district delegates which Sanders campaign had thought were going to be split at but these delegates were locked at the precinct caucaus level.

5. ILLINOIS. I can't speak to Illinois not doing any research on it. But I can tell you this Clinton won by only 1.5 % which didn't put her up any delegates. I find it extremely unlikely that anything was done for 0 delegates. Especially, since polls said she was going to win by a hair.

Finally, as I stated before you can find voter crap in every election on both sides its just publisized by Sanders campaign more when he loses.

[MariaThinks]

82. true

[jack_krass]

5. Maybe cuz the whole "g-damned" establishment supports HRC

[Betty Karlson]

10. and changes the rules to suit their own selfish preferences.

[sufrommich]

11. Where is the Sanders campaign opinion on this?

They're staying awfully quiet for a campaign that thinks they were cheated

[Betty Karlson]

18. Nina Turner made it VERY clear.

Typical of Clinton (and her campaign) to ignore a woman of colour when she protests Clinton's questionable actions. She did the same when she was asked about her "superpredators" statements.

[sufrommich]

19. What did she make clear? She was literally at the

Nevada convention,did she file charges? Did she even mention that she thought there was something inappropriate happening?

[seabeyond]

23. Democrats supporting Democrats. What a concept. Voters too. Sanders lost. Doesn't mean he lost

thru cheating. It means, he is not as valued as Clinton, his policy do not resonate, like Clintons. It is so beyond your thinking that Sanders is not worshiped by all, that it must be cheating that he lost. That is not the reality. Reality, Clinton is more popular, and her policies more solid, and Clinton is by far, more presidential.

[jack_krass]

50. DINOs supporting DINOs

[seabeyond]

51. Democrats. You do not get to define.

[hobbit709]

97. Neither do you.

[seabeyond]

100. Your post doesn't make sense.

[hobbit709]

101. Your own words "Democrats. You do not get to define."

[seabeyond]

102. And still ????

[Amimnoch]

71. That everyone with experience, knowledge, and established history in the party

has a very distinct preference should tell you something.

When Bernie's own co-workers of the last 4 decades overwhelmingly endorse his opposition this also speaks volumes.

[jack_krass]

74. Oh make no mistake. The fact that the entrenched "powers that be"

are all Lining up to support a fellow entrenched, establishment candidate for POTUS sure as hell does "tell me something", in fact screams it. It tells me that they:

-fear change

-fear losing the privledge and power they weild

-but most of all, fear exposure of the currupt little bubble they live in where money buys influence and power corrupts absolutely. They hate Bernie for shedding light on them, and are scurrying like cockroaches found under a refigerator.

[Amimnoch]

85. If you're correct, then the case for Bernie Sanders is even weaker.

For the sake of argument, let's say you are 100% correct in your assertion.

What exactly would electing Bernie as President accomplish? Seems to me you are pushing to elect what would be the most ineffective President in history. To make just about any of Bernie's agenda reality, it will take a Congress. I think one thing we can agree on is the Republicans are not onboard with Bernie's agenda. If the Democrats are likewise corrupt, how is anything Bernie's proposing anything more than a lie? If it was true, do you think after 40 years in congress he'd be clueless?

If you really believe what you said, you're starting on the wrong end of things. You have to change congress.. Where laws are written, and passed for the President to sign off on.

Out of curiosity, what's your version of a roll call vote on the upcoming 115th congress that would pass Bernie's agenda?

[jack_krass]

93. It would give him a bully pulpit to expose the problem, and start pushing solutions

Corporations (through lobbyists, PACs, bought politicians, and others) have their tentacles wrapped tightly around almost every aspect of our government, from drug policy/drug war, prisons, pharmaceutical policy, defense policy, energy policy. They spread money around the establishment like candy, causing corruption and influence pedaling to grow like a cancer.

This problem can only be attacked from the top, by somebody who recognizes the problem, has shown willingness to do something about it, and is not bought and paid for already.

Electing a Hillary Clinton, who has accepted 100s of millions in the form of corporate hand-me-downs, for ostensibly odd-jobs like speech giving is exactly how to ignore, and exacerbate the problem.

[immoderate]

78. It says 'rigged.'

That's why the inferior candidate.

--imm

[LexVegas]

6. Not a surprise. Losses are ties....election fraud....Berniemath....Bernies Bizarro World. nt

[GreatGazoo]

7. pretty obvious really

[WhiteTara]

12. How many of those fans in the stands are

registered voters? How many of them vote?

[SwampG8r]

17. Even if it were 1 in 10 the gap is obvious

[WhiteTara]

21. In rallies or votes?

[lunamagica]

41. Not really. Even the biggest rallies cosists of a very small sample of a state's population

[dchill]

62. And the smallest.

Works both ways.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

24. Ron Paul used to fill stadiums.

It didn't turn into votes.

[lunamagica]

35. So did mitt Romney

[ThePhilosopher04]

45. Ron Paul didn't fill stadiums like Bernie

he had a rally at my hometown university and drew about 400 to an 8,000 seat arena. He may have had good crowds here and there but nowhere near the consistency and not as big.

[lunamagica]

38. Several posters have said that their children attended rallies, but didn't bother to vote.

[sufrommich]

8. Has the Sanders campaign filed formal charges with

the FEC yet?

No? Hmmmm.

[puffy socks]

34. Probably

because he is still collecting illegal campaign contributions and ignoring their request for info for months on end

[bobbobbins01]

9. Not true.

I think there is plenty of election fraud going on, even when he wins.

[ViseGrip]

13. Yes, so strange when the STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS DECERTIFIES DUE TO 'IRREGULARITIES'!

It IS considered an anomaly when it always favors one side.

Funny, not a Hillary supporter complaining they had to vote on a provisional ballot. Funny, not a Hillary supporter had a registration switched in NV. These are not hiccups, and it favors one candidate. If Hillary is not involved or aware, why does she not speak out???????

THAT IS WHAT IS SO G-DAMNED STRANGE.

[sufrommich]

16. When will the Sanders campaign be filing charges of election

tampering with the FEC?

[merrily]

31. What the heck is tampering with the FEC? Do you mean bribing the commissioners?

[frylock]

61. tampering with the FEC?

I know it's Monday, but just stringing together words hoping they make sense isn't going to cut it. Can you explain this comment?

[seabeyond]

28. Facts. 6 or 8 of the 64 verified and allowed to seat. 8 Clinton were not verified and not allowed

seat. When ignoring facts to make your argument, it is a fail.

They didn't follow rules. It is on them. You do not see Clinton people throwing a fit because 8 Clinton delegates weren't seated because they did not follow the rules. Only Sanders supporters throwing a fit the rules weren't ignored for them. A campaign of entitlement.

[puffy socks]

37. Nope

I don't like any kind of problems with elections but that doesn't mean that Hillary Clinton and the DNC were behind any of it or that Berni was always the one being screwed

[vintx]

59. Nice try but you're wasting your time.

These same people were totally aware of how this shit works when it was benefitting Republicans.

Now that it's benefitting Hillary suddenly they've all become very very confused about it all.

Suddenly the issue is entirely too complex for them to understand.

[DLCWIdem]

87. Election Irregularities. Decertify. your talking about Baltimore did you bother to read article

If you had read the article you would have found out that it was about the extremely close mayoral race not the presidential race. Get over yourself it is not always about Sanders.

[NurseJackie]

14. Conspiracy! (Yep ... We're just that good! Hillary can do ANYTHING!) :-P

[NWCorona]

15. I think you answered your own question.

[merrily]

20. Not strange at all. The party has never been united against one primary candidate before.

Has even one delegate been flipped from Bernie to Hillary, or have all the "errors" gone the other way?

I have a diner rule. http://www.democraticunderground.com/128037667

Not to mention.....

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/editorials/caucus/2016/02/03/editorial-something-smells-democratic-party/79777580/

From a paper that endorsed Hillary less than two weeks earlier.

and

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-election-intervention-20160512-story.html

[seabeyond]

29. Sanders is not a Democrat. Attacks and insults Democrats. You all pissed cause Democrats do not

support him? Lol. Like that should be a surprise.

Seriously?

Insult, attack, accuse AND demand we vote for him.

[Beowulf]

33. Not surprised at all.

Disappointed, yes, but the establishment reaction to progressive ideas and those who espouse them is all too typical.

[seabeyond]

40. Democrats, not establishment. That tired insult. Do not support Sanders,... You establishment!!! BS

[Beowulf]

72. I chose establishment for a reason

Many Democrats do support Sanders as evidenced by this discussion board. It's Hillary supporters who try to label us as not real Democrats. Hillary is the status quo candidate. Establishment is hardly an insult, but rather an accurate description of who runs the Democratic Party - DNC officials, Congressional office holders, governors, what else are they? They are establishment Democrats. The Clinton wing of the party was established in the mid-80's to diminish the influence of progressive elements in Democratic Party to insignificance within the party and betting on their votes in general elections as they had no place else to go. Why would I be surprised that the party regulars who are predominantly Clintonians would be hostile to a progressive candidate or for that matter candidates as progressive around the country are meeting terrific resistance from the party during their primaries. Given their background, of course they are going to be aggressively hostile to progressives - they though they had rendered them powerless. What you are hearing from Democrats who support Bernie, if you have been paying attention, is no more. We are not going to be taken for granted, you cannot assume our votes if you are not going to take our issues seriously.

[seabeyond]

73. Many of those supporting Sanders are not Democrats and never have been, or will be, too.

I do not care how establishment is defined or why. To use it to insult the many Democrats, the majority of Democrats that voted for Clinton is an insult. Also, Sanders is as much if not more... the very definition of "establishment" and it surely is insulting to pretend otherwise, well pointing the finger at those not supporting Sanders.

Further, Sanders has used the scornful and dismissive tone of "establishment" to the likes of PP and NERAL and that is surely insulting, to Democrats as a whole.

[Beowulf]

79. Sanders is as much establishment as Clinton or more so.

My God, are you serious? I guess you really don't care what the definition of establishment is.

[seabeyond]

88. In a body of govt that has power over others. Been in congress for working on 3 decades.

Doesn't get more establishment than that. Boy, has he fooled his people.

[DLCWIdem]

89. funny I thought it was independents that supported B.S.

Dont you guys say he does better in open primaries where independents can vote. So who supports him Independents.

[seabeyond]

90. I personally believe it is mostly Libertarians, baggers and anarchists. Not Repugs.

[merrily]

36. Ah, that"not a Democrat thing" is too played out and has been responded to too often

for me to bother with. Moreover, not only does the post to which you are supposedly replying say nothing about my being angry, demanding you vote, etc. no post I have ever made in my life says anything about those things. if you're not going to reply to anything my post actually said, then don't bother replying. I don't know who you think your non sequitur rant is impressing, but it's not I.

[seabeyond]

42. Fact is fact. Sanders accuses, fabricates, attacks and insults Democrats, while demanding the vote.

Brilliant, I tell you!!!

[merrily]

46. Apparently, you have no clue what "fact" means. Neither Sanders nor I demanded you vote for him.

And what part of "Don't reply to me unless it's about something I've actually posted" was too hard to grasp?

[stonecutter357]

67. +1000

[frylock]

65. I'm confused. Did he not register as a Democrat to participate in this election?

What did you do that made you a Democrat?

[glowing]

92. He actually didn't register as a democrat because of the way

VT registration works. He's still an Independent who is running in the Democratic Party's race. And I believe Sander's has been more than fair in trying to stay within the perimeters of the established rules. He hasn't once come out and said, look at the exit polls, look at the final "computer tally votes", and accused an election of outright fraud. Now, he has said there were too many issues with voter registrations being flipped and for voter suppression tactics, such as limiting voting precincts and creating long lines and other problems.

I think many people on the Bernie side are frustrated with the state party and their shenanigans and that Bernie hasn't challenged any of the results, like MA, AZ, IL, NY, MD, NV. These states have seen some seriously shady shit blatantly placed into the process known as democracy. And the patterns follow a design that can be traced as more states have continued to vote.... A state with a closed primary first seems to have a number of issues with life long Drmocrats losing their right to vote by registration flipping or removal from the rolls altogether. Second or simultaneously, the "establishment" politicians (super delegates) all line up nearly lockstep behind Hillary, whether she's calling in favors, holding op research against, or bribing with election funds from the DNC, they are optically supporting her (and before anyone even announced a run against her), the DNC plays ground game subterfuge with fliers and distortions and debates that are paired with Super Bowl types of events, and then they have their computer machines that are easily hacked and unverifiable counting totals (as was seen in Chicago, the hand count audit was wildly off from the computer tabulation results and is ignored by the board and certified)... After that everyone is told to ignore those pesky exit polls that have been reliable until 2000 in the USA, ignore the one-sided support of one candidate over any others from the DNC and state parties, and ignore the fact that Americans despise the two party system and a majority now are Independents.

This two party system, coupled with money in politics is absolutely destroying this country. Over 50% is spent on defense, yet our roads are crumbling, public water poinsoning us, trade agreements destroying the middle class.

At this point, we are going to have one of the worst GE "run" that Anericans have produced. The Republicans allowed their crazies to take over, and look, Trump is their mouthpiece. Democrats allowed the DLC, third way to establish a foothold over the party that used to stand for workers and people, and is now another slush fund for the wealthy and corporations to bribe favors from.

This may be one of the lowest turn out years in a long while. I'm not even sure that the conventions will go off without altercations occurring; especially on the Democratic side. I think many of us wonder how these elections would actually had turned out had Democrats spent the summer debating each other and not allowing Trump the stage and media prop up that occurred. Or if the DNC truly stayed neutral. (Also, southern states would have gotten a better look at Sander's or O'Malley before voting for the only name they recognized). If the super delegates had stayed away from endorsements and delegate totals for reporters to lie to people about who was winning or not. If the state's hadn't had so many registrations mysteriously change or drop from their records. If exit totals actually matched up with the computer tallies within the margin of error. And now, even at the convention, Debbie is allowing lobbyists to fund the event, choosing to pad committees with Hillary people, and actually saying Basically F-U to about 1/2 the people who have voted for a progressive candidate in Bernie. We won, we are pivoting right, and we are hitting up donations from Bush monied interests because asking lots of people for small donations may just mean you are beholden to the people.

It honestly scares me to death to have either Trump or Hillary. One is under tax investigation, the other under FBI investigation for possible national security risks, FOIA evasion, and collusion of State and the Clinton Foundation. What in the world will that mess even look like when she's president? Will foreign govts really have that much bribery access to the highest office in our land?

So to hear people just say, "get over it, you lost", like its a football game who's team lost the super bowl, is extremely disheartening because of all of these other issues that have been brought to light, and refused to be examined by the media, by supporters, and by the establishment. It's times like these that I wish I had truly left this country completely. This country doesn't hold my values in the slightest and doesn't even want to address the many of us who feel exactly the same way.

[frylock]

104. I'm thinking historically low voter turnout.

[JTFrog]

98. Yes you are. n/t

[frylock]

103. So he didn't register as a Democrat then?

Why would the DNC allow him to run on the ticket if he didn't register as a Democrat? Please advise.

[DLCWIdem]

91. read Baltimore article. It effects mayoral race

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. Hardly. You guys are the only ones with motive, opportunity... and that basic disposition. n/t

[BootinUp]

32. LOL ...

you can't see the absurdity of that statement?

[JTFrog]

99. Leave him alone he's got a men's group to run. n/t

[cantbeserious]

27. The Fraud In Nevada Was Recorded For All To See

eom

[INdemo]

39. Why do Hillary Clinton suporters

Run to her defense when it is proven that election fraud occurred
Iowa: the vote count audit was stopped by DWS when Bernie Sanders was gaining in 44 of the 600+ precincts
Nevada : Caucus attendees were allow to vote without registering or confirming they were elgible.
Those voters had left the caucus site when Sanders supporters protested the count
Mass: Voter were denied access to polls because Bill Clinton was csmpaigning within restricted area and blocked entrance to the polling place.
This strategy is very similar to that of the Cheney/Bush/Rove tactics of 2004.
But then after all there are Republican
strategists/advisors working for the Hillary campaign that are Karl Rove schooled.

[Thinkingabout]

66. In particular, in Mass, Sanders supporters was right where Bill Clinton was standing, making video,

chanting Bernie Bernie Bernie, they were inside the 150 ft area if Clinton was, they were actively chanting Bernie Bernie Bernie, Bill was not chanting Hillary Hillary Hillary, yet their attempted proof of Bill violating the voting laws actually showed it was the Sanders supporters violating the voting laws, not Bill.

It is strange every attempt to show wrong doing on Hillary supporters shows wrong doing on Sanders supporters.

[cherokeeprogressive]

43. Election fraud perpetrated by one side and not the other would be my guess.

[merrily]

48. +1 How come only the victim is complaining about theft?

Gee, I can't figure out that one for the life of me!

[Sheepshank]

68. manufactured victimhood at every turn

Almost every case consisting of BS supporters who (1) do not know the already established rules, and rail against the rules as if they were created just to thwart Bernie....then there are (2) the other subset of BS supporter who simply don't like the rule as written and because they are not being changed mid stream, claim there is fraud, and the system rigged.

Almost every time.

[cherokeeprogressive]

69. "at every turn" or "Almost every time." Make up your mind. It either happens or it doesn't.

[merrily]

70. ALMOST every time? At least that much honesty crept itn.

[AgingAmerican]

44. Generally that's how cheating goes

One side does the cheating

[LoverOfLiberty]

47. The sad part of this

is that what we are seeing in places like Arizona is a GOP effort to make it more difficult to vote and we are so busy blaming each other that not a damned thing will be done about it.

[EndElectoral]

52. We've always been concerned about election fraud. Bush-Gore-2000, Kerry-Bush 2004. Why stop now?

[beachbum bob]

53. sour grapes for starters....

[kiva]

54. That the Democratic establishment is backing Hillary

and is willing to do anything to get their way?

Anyone who looks at the footage of Roberta Lange gaveling the Nevada Convention to a close and does not see that it was against the wishes of the majority of the delegates present is delusional.

[RufusTFirefly]

56. Yes, isn't it? That sore loser in 2000 made similar accusations

Pffft!

[frylock]

57. Nothing to see here, folks.

"Chicago Election Official Admits “Numbers Didn’t Match”"

[Sheepshank]

58. seems predictable...right?

Even to the point that States that are slated to be lost by Bernie, get preemptive voter fraud labels.

[NCTraveler]

75. Four individual users, twenty-five searches, eleven states, information downloaded.

Clinton and O'Malley cleared.

It's well documented that the Sanders campaign has been trying to rig the vote from early on.

[apcalc]

77. They simply can't fathom that he is not the chosen one by Democrats.

[MariaThinks]

80. so true. when he wins, there is no fraud. when he loses, it's all fraud.

does he actually have any policies besides complaining?

[B Calm]

81. We should always be concerned about election fraud!

[Yurovsky]

83. She has manipulated the system...

And used her power to quash opposition within the party. The fix has been in, aided and abetted by mountains of filthy dirty corporate blood money.

I don't care what anyone says or does from here forward - I've seen the machine at work, and it is anything but democratic.

Bow down... Submit... Obey...

No thanks...

[hobbit709]

96. the side pulling the chicanery never complains.