Is anyone here in favor of third way/new democrats?

[SpareribSP]

I've only seen people bashing it here, so I'm curious.

[northernsouthern]

1. It is odd.

I always bring it up to the hardcore HRC fans here, but I have not once seen anything said against it by them. In fact I have seen one person on here mention the third-way in a positive light. There is a chance it was in one of those "I used to be a Bernie supporter" posts by a user post the "Correct the Record". I think the user ignored my question about it and also stopped responding to the thread soon after posting it.

[dchill]

2. There is something that's not just a river on Egypt.

And it's strong around here.

[Baobab]

59. You can learn QUITE a bit from the links in

my .sig- about neoliberalism's goals and effects on us - for example, on our health care reform and ability to have public higher education, and its not good.

It seems to me that "Third Way" is just a deceptive way to say neoliberalism.

[merrily]

3. Obviously, there are. Some DUers even use pro blue dog or pro Third Way avatars.

Of course, most will also call themselves liberal when the occasion moves them, but they are Third Way. Neocon foreign policies, Hoover/Darwin/Reagan economic policies, corporate welfare, but at least semi-pro choice, very belatedly pro equal rights for the LGBT community and pro-civil rights, at least in lip service and pandering.

What's not to love? Mama likey!

[Baobab]

73. how can you tell a "pro third way" avatar" ?

or blue dog for that matter...

[merrily]

74. Same way that you know that my avatar is pro-Bernie.

[TrueDemVA]

4. They have infiltrated this site

Just since I started taking part in discussion back in February, I have seen an influx of people who sympathize with third way dem politics. They may not outwardly say it, but the way they defend and argue for hawkish republicans, oops, I mean a particular "democrat" is obviously by people who have confused moderate republican with liberal.

The third way/DLC have been working since the 90's to slowly convince people the only way to get things done is to sell out its citizens.

[Depaysement]

5. Skinner

He didn't create the site for progressives.

[Art_from_Ark]

81. Well, actually he did

He went on C-SPAN back in 2001 to recruit "liberals, progressives and other leftists" to join this site.

[baldguy]

6. Do you mean as they really are, or as they are depicted here?

[SpareribSP]

15. As they really are.

I'll also admit that I'm a younger guy, and most of my close friends are very liberal, and so it's hard for me to sympathize so much with fiscal conservatives since it really takes a leap. Even my older family voted Bernie also

However, mainly I hear the term here just as an insult, and I'm curious about actually discussing it and understanding it better because I know a lot of people strongly believe in it.

[pangaia]

29. Google is your friend...

[SpareribSP]

30. Even google tailors your search results.

Echo chambers are easy to find. I think honest direct conversation is the best cure for that.

Besides, I was also curious about DU specifically.

[Armstead]

34. Type in Democratic Leadership Council

Third Way means not liberal. It basically is/was a movement to align the Democratic Party with business interests, and reduce its reliance on unions, minorities (except when convenient) and "liberal" policies.

You can also type in Third Way because there is an organization of that name.

Read what they say -- but also more important analysis of who they are and what they have done.

[SpareribSP]

41. I have.

Still, that doesn't explain personal reasons why people on DU might support them. I've gotten some interesting responses, even though I don't necessarily agree. I'm not trying to change minds here, just curious to see some different viewpoints.

There's too many threads of people making assumptions and just yelling hate past each other in a feedback loop. I just want to have some general discussion relevant to the primaries on DU.

[silvershadow]

80. Your best bet then is to study up on the political history of the party.

The Third Way (basically the Clinton Machine, et al, though not entirely)- is directly responsible for the offshoring of hundreds of thousands of good, high-paying jobs by embracing neoliberal policies. Among other things (the crime bill). They are really just moderate Republicans from states that aren't too friendly to Democrats.

[brooklynite]

7. I've actually met with them

Last edited Mon May 16, 2016, 01:36 PM - Edit history (1)

They're not the evil, conservative, "almost Republicans" that some people's platitudes make them out to be. They totally in sync with mainstream Democrats on social issues; they advocate a less progressive left-wing to economic issues AS IS THEIR RIGHT. All they are are a policy advocacy group; they don't come imbued with any special powers. If you don't like their positions, advocate for others.

[SpareribSP]

16. Absolutely

I'm just curious. Seems like you see the same attacks repeated over and over here, was instead hoping for some actual discussion!

[Armstead]

37. They have used money to gain undue influence

Bill Clinton transformed the Democratic Party to their way of thinking, and their reliance on Big Bidness.

Many people think it is time to reject that and make the Democrats more accountable to average people and the poor.

[jack_krass]

40. Of course you have

[brooklynite]

44. I support the most progressive candidate who can actually get elected...

...and I don't encase myself in a bubble talking only to people who agree with me.

[SpareribSP]

45. Is there a point though

Where you feel these candidates would be too far right though, even if they are electable?

[brooklynite]

46. Absent a couple of dealbreaker issues (Syrian refugees, PP/reproductive rights), no...

...you'd be hard-pressed to point to a Republican alternative who would be better, and only the the Republican or Democrat will end up getting elected.

[SpareribSP]

47. That's pretty black and white

Wouldn't the optimal strategy to be as left as possible while still being electable, though? Of course the Democrat will be better than the Republican, but not all Democrats are equal. Wouldn't more progressive candidates also set a standard and pave the way?

[Beowulf]

51. That doesn't make her progressive

just more progressive than the others on your "electable" list.

[NorthCarolina]

69. Here's a pretty good summary

of their stripe from Thomas Frank:

Q: Does the Democratic Party have a vested interest in perpetuating income inequality? Does their welfare—no pun intended—rest on perpetuating an incendiary issue that supplies them with a righteous brand of political power/grievance?

Frank: I wouldn’t put it that way. I think it’s more accurate to say that, while they know inequality is bad and while it makes them sad, they aren’t deeply concerned about it. And that’s because, as a party, they are committed to the winners in the inequality sweepstakes: the “creative class,” the innovative professionals in Silicon Valley and on Wall Street. The people who are doing really well in this new gilded age. That’s simply who the Democrats are nowadays.

On the other side of the coin, they are not structurally aligned with the organizations of working people any longer, and as a result they aren’t terribly concerned with working people’s issues.

http://www.salon.com/2016/04/09/thomas_frank_democrats_just_arent_that_concerned_about_income_inequality_partner/

It's this disconnect that leads them to actually believe things like free college is a bad idea for America because the little people might have to pay for Trumps kids to go to community college. They can't even see the greater good to society that such a program would be because in reality, they simply can't be bothered with such socialist rubbish.

[Baobab]

62. Do you think they would agree with the effects of their policies described in my .sig?

there are four links in my sig and they are all big issues for me.

[silvershadow]

82. just curious...is this

you?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&ved=0ahUKEwjwpYv00uDMAhVoxoMKHeMvBZ84ChAWCBswAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.campaignmoney.com%2Fpolitical%2Fcontributions%2Fchris-bastian.asp%3Fcycle%3D16&usg=AFQjCNE4LzaVduolzOlalqJjZW3CzZ7o0A&sig2=MVLbNL4-5VqattnIoJzQCA

I'm interested to know if it is...Bookmarking for your response.

[silvershadow]

84. Did you see my post yet? Is that you? Just curious... nt

[bigwillq]

8. No (nt)

[LWolf]

9. Of course.

First there are those who are actually out of the closet with their posts, avatars, and sig lines.

Then there are all of the Clinton supporters, most of whom are still in the closet.

[JaneyVee]

10. On some issues.

[YouDig]

11. For, me, depends on the individual and the issue.

It seems that "Third Way" is used here as an empty smear against anyone who doesn't embrace socialism. People call Hillary a "Third Way Dem" even though she was the 11th most liberal senator.

[Nye Bevan]

12. I am.

I think taxes are at about the right level, I don't see most corporations as the enemy, I don't think most of Wall Street is evil, and I don't support abolishing the cap on Social Security contributions. I also strongly support NAFTA and free trade. And I think a federal minimum wage of $15 is too high.

While I would love a single-payer healthcare system I think that with the ACA, President Obama got the absolute best result he could get given the Congress at the time, and I see the ACA as a huge step in the right direction. Prohibiting discrimination based upon pre-existing conditions is IMO the single best achievement of the Obama presidency and provides a stark contrast with the cruelty of the Republicans.

I'm also in the tiny minority of DUers who think that Bill Clinton was a very good president.

[SpareribSP]

14. Thanks!

Making sure the budget is balanced and such are also laudable goals.

If I might ask, how would you propose that social security is extended to future generations (an age increase, or some other change?) How do you feel about the disappearing middle class?

Not trying to attack or anything here, just genuinely curious.

[pangaia]

33. A balaned budget in the federal government is not as important as in a family, for example.

The two concepts of 'budget' are quite different.

[SpareribSP]

36. Obviously.

However, as far as I understand, third way policies in general want to shrink the national debt, which is what I was referencing.

[NorthCarolina]

18. "We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road.

They get run down". ~ Aneurin (Nye) Bevan

[NorthCarolina]

13. I'm in favor of them

leaving the Democratic party and returning to the GOP from whence they came. We could really use at least two political parties in this country instead of simply one party with two names.

[Betty Karlson]

17. ^pretty much this ^ + 1000

[Nye Bevan]

48. Why would I do that when the candidate I support will almost certainly win the nomination?

It would make more sense for the Bernie wing to split off and start a "Democratic Socialist" party or something.

[EndElectoral]

19. Crickets

[MisterP]

20. here's a good article on how the Clintons are the only reason austerian piffle

has any traction whatsoever in the party and, by extension, nationally and globally; Al From would be a footnote without Bill; they chased white votes by attacking affirmative action and reforming welfare and jailing Black youth, while in fact the working middle class when those million NAFTA jobs didn't appear

http://www.salon.com/2016/04/30/clintonism_screwed_the_democrats_how_bill_hillary_and_the_democratic_leadership_council_gutted_progressivism/

[joshcryer]

21. Mark Udall was a damn good Senator.

He showed courage and was kicked out by non voting or vote depressing "liberals."

Mark Udall was also on the Third Way board.

Does that make me Third Way for supporting him?

John Bel Edwards is a gun loving anti choice conservative Blue Dog. I'm damn fucking glad he got elected in a conservative state (the most conservative by all metrics). Does that make me a conservative Dem?

No, I have my own agreements and disagreements with various politicians. Just as I do other people. What I want is progress.

[SpareribSP]

22. I think people would have a hard time arguing against

doing the best you can. Different areas of the country also have their own local politics.

Clearly also in the past the Country also was further right and perhaps the Third Way was the path of pragmatism.

However, does it still make sense at a national level? I think that's where people are especially butting heads. Should it be the exception, not the rule?

[joshcryer]

23. As long as we lose midterms the pragmatic choice is most likely to win.

Now if we can actually get the vote out during the midterms my opinion changes.

Look at that piece of crap Scott Walker, always wins because his always falls on the midterms.

[SpareribSP]

24. But

Haven't we lost midterms with the pragmatic choice?

The argument would be that a bolder vision would motivate the base during midterms. I agree midterms are an issue, but the solution is probably more complicated.

[joshcryer]

25. No, we lost because of GOTV failure.

Feingold and Grayson are examples, but Kuchunich is another example, losing to the moderate.

[SpareribSP]

28. Aren't there many causes of GOTV failure?

[joshcryer]

31. The main cause is not being inspired by the candidate.

John Bel Edwards is the best example, from a political party standpoint he's against the platform on several issues, so he's a compromise choice. In the North he'd be a staunch republican.

From a local state perspective he represents southern values well. 80% or something like that are anti choice there. So local state democrats loved him for that. Moderates championed him. Liberals held him to his promise to expand Medicaid. He got 200k people on the rolls in his first days of office (executive order). He literally saved lives.

It's a self perpetrating loop, you say someone is the pragmatic choice, no one is inspired, and no one is inspired if they are the compromise choice. Instead, we should judge them on the merits and go with it.

You know why Mark Udall lost? Because he went for banning high capacity magazines. Took courage. It shows that certain contingency is not reliable at all. Pandering to them has its costs in midterms. I still respect the hell out of Mark for doing it.

[SpareribSP]

32. Definitely a hard situation.

Thanks for the discussion, I'll have to research these cases a bit more. I've lived in three very different states in my life and understood some of the local politics there, but there are still 47 more.

Cheers!

[joshcryer]

75. Let me clarify something about Mark Udall, though.

He didn't go after high capacity magazines because he was pandering to the left. That should have been something that got the left to come out and vote for him. One of those "inspiring" things I was talking about.

This was the midterm after the 2012 Aurora shootings where 12 people were murdered due to high capacity magazines (James Holmes had a 100-round drum magazine at his disposal, which fired 65 rounds before malfunctioning, from one weapon). Mark Udall was sincere in his damnation of those magazines. He may have thought he was safe in this assessment because it would actually inspire the left to come out for him. The pragmatic choice would've been to keep his mouth shut until he was reelected, and then come out against them. But he saw a crisis in the state and something that needed to be addressed, reelection be damned. And he lost. He fucking lost.

Or rather, the left let him lose. Maybe because he was Third Way. Maybe because they didn't give a fuck about his staunchly liberal environmental stance, his staunchly liberal surveillance stance (him and Wyden broke the illegal spying long before Snowden did it). Maybe because he voted for free trade agreements with countries like Singapore, Australia, Peru and Chile, because fuck him, right?

What a loss.

[djean111]

26. At first, the Hillary fans tried to tell us that the Third Way does not even exist.

Even though it most certainly does, it is a tumorous growth cast off by the now-defunct DLC, and they advise the New Democrat Coalition, and even posted an opinion wad of crap in the WSJ whining that Liz Warren is "getting out of hand".

Either they are in favor of the Third Way safety net slashing, or they are so consumed with personality worship that they disregard it. Or they are actually all Third Wayers.

[Lizzie Poppet]

27. Here you go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1107

[auntpurl]

35. I am a moderate.

I am socially very liberal, fiscally somewhat conservative, and believe in a strong foreign policy. I thought Bill Clinton was an excellent president, and Hillary's views align nearly perfectly with my own.

I believe the Third Way (or the DLC at that time) did what they had to do to save the Democratic party and wrest control back from the horror of 2 terms Reagan/1 term GHW Bush. I am very grateful they nominated someone like Bill Clinton who could win an election in the climate of the day. I am very grateful to Bill Clinton for digging us out of the economic abyss the Repubs had left behind.

Of course, all the views I've just stated above make me a RW facist for most posters on DU, but I suspect I'm fairly common amongst voting Democrats. I've voted in every election since I turned 18, and I have voted a straight Democratic ticket each time. I will vote Democratic until the day I shuffle off.

[SpareribSP]

39. That's totally understandable to me.

Thanks for answering!

I am curious though what would qualify as a strong foreign policy to you.

Would shifting more liberal fiscally not sit well with you, or does it just feel unrealistic?

[auntpurl]

42. Thanks for your reply.

Strong foreign policy means that if there is unsupportable terrorism or genocide going on (like with IS) we step in. It's one of the responsibilities of being a superpower, in my belief. It also means that we have strong ties with our allies and avoid unilateral action. Hillary is well-respected around the world and will strengthen ties with foreign leaders.

If the Dems have enough juice to shove the voters left on economic issues, well, I'm with them to the end. It's not my preference, but I'm flexible. But Bernie's policies would never pass either house of Congress. Jesus, look at what Obama had to go through just to squeak his much more moderate proposals through. All of that said, I think proposing fiscal liberalism is a guaranteed loss in the GE for Dems in the current political climate.

[SpareribSP]

43. Makes sense to me

Although I'm incredibly wary about regime change. There's a balance to strike, for sure. Bernie might be too far to the other side, but it is a nice sight for the war weary.

Thanks!

[whatchamacallit]

38. This board is riddled with them

Some don't even know that's what they are.

[ibegurpard]

49. just look for the Hillary avatars

[mmonk]

50. A freaking boatload.

[apcalc]

52. What I'm NOT in favor of

Is Republicans. And what I'm NOT in favor of is Republicans controlling three branches of government.

Sanders supporters better get their act together. Or Sanders will be the new Nader I'm afraid.

[BillZBubb]

56. If Hillary loses it will be on Hillary. Not Bernie, Not Nader, Not Santa Claus.

[apcalc]

65. Ask Al Gore.

[BillZBubb]

68. Al Gore was honest. He said it was on him, no one else.

[apcalc]

71. Bull. And the votes Nader got in Florida would have gone to Bush...

[BillZBubb]

72. Got a link where Gore blamed Nader?

A lot of Democratic votes in FL went to bush and buchanon. That was a bigger problem.

[yallerdawg]

53. A 'third way'? Hmmm...

You mean the movement that came out of Reagan defeating an incumbent president right after Watergate?

Reagan winning again, followed by Bush 1.0, who crushed Michael Dukakis on crime? This in the wake of the Iran-Contra scandal?

The first time a party has won three terms in a row since Roosevelt/Truman?

A 'third way' - where a little known governor took out the incumbent? This in the wake of the victorious Gulf War?

Well - sometimes you need a 'third way' - when "It's the economy, stupid"! - J. Carville

[auntpurl]

61. Well said.

I'm pretty sure some of these DUers have no recollection of recent history.

[SpareribSP]

64. They won for sure

But does that mean that their policies were correct, both then and now?

Further clarifying: I'm totally okay with strategic voting and running candidates to win, but should those values be the at the heart of things if it was strategic?

[yallerdawg]

67. It's exactly what our Democratic presidents keep telling us!

"MAKE ME!"

Instead, the American people give them divided, dysfunctional government!

Why don't we start with having a third term in a row?

Keeping what we have! Making it better! Moving to the left!

Not good enough?

Join us in making it better!

[BillZBubb]

54. Lots of them. The Third Way won the war for the soul of the party.

Those that support pro-corporate economic and regulatory policies, think "free trade" deals are a good thing overall, don't particularly support unions, favor austerity to bring down the deficit, are hawkish on foreign policy will be Third Way "New Democrats".

Third Wayers' are somewhat liberal on social issues, but tend to see solutions to them as requiring incremental rather than rapid (or radical) change. They view that as the optimal approach to long term success.

If they support Hillary, they are de facto Third Way supporters. Of course not every Hillary supporter agrees with all Third Way positions. They pick and choose what fits their view. But she's the one who would be president, so they back the whole package through her.

[The Second Stone]

55. I'm in favor of new democrats, and by that I mean

people who support majority rule voting. "Third way" is a slur that really doesn't have any strict definition other than "not far left enough for me."

[BillZBubb]

57. Bullshit. The Third Way is a real organization, with real goals.

Try to educate yourself BEFORE you post.

[The Second Stone]

60. Apparently they are centrists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way

[BillZBubb]

63. They are centrists only with respect to how far right the republicans have moved.

By FDR Democratic standards they are rightists. The Eisenhower republicans were center/right. That's about where Hillary and the Third Way are now.

Nice of you to at least look something up though. Do a little more research and you'll find the how conservative they really are.

[yallerdawg]

66. Of course it's all in perspective.

I can't imagine any Republican conservative rightwing ideologue calling a Clinton or an Obama a centrist!

If you look at everything from the fringe, it sure gets blurred!

[arcane1]

58. Not me! They're part of the problem. n/t

[winter is coming]

70. Nope. n/t

[LuvLoogie]

77. List the Third Way Senators up for reelection this fall.

[JohnnyRingo]

78. Do you mean new Democrats like Bernie Sanders?

I assume since he has revolutionary new goals for the party that he's the third way:

1: Republican
2: Democrat
3: Socialist Democrat.

I'm more of a traditional Democrat. The same Dems I've been voting for for 40 years. I don't think the country is ready for Bernie's "third way" of politics.

[underthematrix]

79. Maybe bernie will start a Progressive Party

That would have been the way to go when he decided to run

[UnFettered]

83. They have there purpose

I know there not popular in here or on a national level, but they could be helpful at state and local elections. A very left progressive platform isn't going to win in all areas of the country. As stated in a previous post the past Louisiana governors election is a great example. A blue dog democrat can win and be more appealing in more traditional conservative areas.

I don't know where I fall with them as far as the issues go though I'm all over the board. I'm technically not even a democrat so my openion most likely matter little on here. I'm just stating what I saw in our last governors election here. I can honestly see that same pattern winning elections in red states. I think a lot of people would embrace a moderate considering how far right the GOP has gone. It may not be progesive, but it's far better than the alternative.