is vote shaming the same as suppression?

[reddread]

those relentless posts and notions about too many white Bernie supporters"Bros", etc.
was that just good dirty politics, or bad Democratic behavior, unseen since the civil rights era?
you know, the one they tried to lie Bernie Sanders out of?
all those fingers, pointing back.

[Shrike47]

1. No. Your vote, ultimately, is a secret known only to you. If you feel shamed for it, that's you.

[reddread]

25. but "Drop out Bernie" before and after every primary?

even after O'Malley dropped out?
wouldnt that be vote suppression if they managed to achieve that?
would that not be their intention?
I just need some help with this, it bothers me.
thank you.

[1StrongBlackMan]

36. No ...

That wouldn't be voter suppression, either.

[reddread]

38. I think that little r is the difference

we may be talking two different things here

[bettyellen]

2. not at all. anyone who could equate the two does not care about ACTUAL voter suppression.

this is the same as saying talking about racism or sexism is "playing a card"- RW bullshit.

[reddread]

4. "youre only helping Trump"

is that suppression or just good manners to point out?

[bettyellen]

5. It is absolutely not suppression- anyone who would posit that has a persecution complex....

and has little clue what REAL suppression looks like.

[reddread]

6. so it's shaming?

right?

[bettyellen]

7. If someone else's opinion makes you feel ashamed, that is on you.

No one is suppressing your vote or forcing their opinion on you. No one is forcing you to have these conversations.
If the existence of other opinions feels suppressive to you- get help for that. It is not.

[reddread]

9. If that is their intent it is upon them

can we get back to leveling the playing field and moving towards a democracy
or even just some sort of representative government?

[bettyellen]

11. nope, you are- believe it or not- responsible for your own sense of shame.

and to liken shame to voter suppression - well THAT you should be ashamed of- but likely are not.

[reddread]

12. if you havent noticed my distinct lack of shame

my claim to any (or lack) would be equally worthless

[Hortensis]

13. Are you trying to shame others by any chance?

It sounds like it.

HOWEVER: Bernie's a career politician who's run for office many times. We now know that he actually planned for years to run for president, and knew how he was going to do it.

We know he did better in the primaries than anyone expected, even considering that his wins turned out to be padded with conservative votes that would disappear in the general. He was tremendously helped by caucuses, which acted to effectively suppress the vote--in his favor, and by the open primaries that allowed conservatives in to subvert the vote.

His problem wasn't the primaries.

Clearly his biggest mistakes, #1, #2, and #3, were to not use his decades in Congress to line up support among his colleagues by working to earn their trust and respect. Failing to form alliances and friendships among his fellow professionals was a huge mistake. Half those superdelegates could have been his, and everything would be very different right now. Instead, he has almost no friends or political suppor among his colleagues.

Without that, he was unable to compete in the "invisible primary," before any of us are paying attention, when the DNC decides which candidates are stronger and more likely to win in the general. If he had had strong support from his colleagues, the DNC might have supported him over Hillary from the beginning.

This was all HIS choice, Redread. He understood the system and how to use it. His strategy maximized both the virtues and faults of our primary systems for all the delegates he could get out of them, and it didn't work.

Because a lot more people voted for Hillary. Democracy won.

[reddread]

15. not for a second. As far as I am concerned, EVERYONE's voice deserves expression

accurate expression.

[Hortensis]

16. Oh, sorry. Sometimes that leveling the playing field

thing is an accusation of corruption against others. Of course, it's not the job of any political party to give a "level field" to whomever registers to run, like the 18 dysfunctionally conservative bad apples who wanted to crowd onto the GOP stage. Very much the contrary. The parties support the one who muscles his way out front of the crowd.

[reddread]

17. dont be. thanks.

too bad its really one world.
be nice to try another.

[Hortensis]

21. Try another world? Oh, I don't know.

We'd just take all our faults with us to any new planet.

Being stuck on one world and forced to deal with it is not dismaying to me. It's a world of wonders, built up over many centuries, not just of problems. Maybe liking to fix up old houses is another manifestation. There is usually so much than can be done to make even ugly houses charming and nice, so many possibilities. New houses are boring. Newness itself is always only days from being despoiled but decades away from developing patina.

Maybe that's part of why I'm less dismayed than many by the mess we made of the nation that was handed over to us by those who came before. Our grandparents tackled a similar mess and did a rather amazing job of it. Then they handed it off to a bunch of clueless ingrates, and for our trouble we get to do it all over again, but with new realities and hopefully grabbing the opportunity to make it even better than before.

Wish this election was past. Just think of all the progress we could make with the White House, both houses of Congress (or even just a just stronger caucus in the House), and the next 2 or 3 appointments to the Supreme Court. Hurry up, November!

[reddread]

22. a wondrous pile of miracles being torn asunder and set onfire

nice place, wish we could live there.
great sentiments, thanks for expressing.
wholehearted agreement.

[Hortensis]

57. On to November. See you there.

[reddread]

59. on the other side

laughing and clapping and dying of satisfaction.
curiosity assuring our return.

[Hortensis]

3. No. For the reasons stated.

I particularly appreciate Bettyellen's point. Making light of voter suppression would be to make light of subversion of our democracy itself.

[NuclearDem]

8. Poll taxes, literacy tests, and voter ID all constitute voter suppression.

Hurt feefees do not.

[Agschmid]

24. +1

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Funny. I haven't seen a single post here stating that someone will vote for Bernie

because he's white and male.

Except the posts by Hillary supporters.

[reddread]

14. Here.

I will vote for Bernie Sanders because he is white and male and correct on the issues that matter to tax paying voters of the United States of America.

It doesnt really matter what color or species he is, but you know
he's pretty damn cute.

[1StrongBlackMan]

47. Funny ...

I haven't seen a single post here stating that someone will vote for Bernie because he's white and male.

Except the posts by Hillary supporters.

Granted. I haven't read the entire thread (just down to your comment) and I have not seen that mentioned ... at all.

[NCTraveler]

18. If you are ashamed of your vote that is on you.

Just look at your need for question marks. Keeps you in the clear from actually making statements. The shame you are telling us you feel because of your vote isn't a "well her dress was short" moment that guys like to shame with after heinous acts and its messed up you use language to try to put yourself there by way of your vote.

"white Bernie supporters"Bros", etc."

You type that and attempt to latch on to a play on words that is a well known term for shaming women. It's just getting to be to obvious.

[ContinentalOp]

19. Vote shaming?

Like telling fellow democrats that they're authoritarians, that they have blood on their hands, etc?

[reddread]

20. those are not vote related issues.

[Agschmid]

23. No.

This is vote supression.

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. No. The "Bro" thing was directed at that subset of supporters' conduct; not, who they supported.'

[reddread]

28. can you break that down for me?

thank you.

[merrily]

33. Just like "Obama Boys" was directed only at the behavior of Obama supporters?

Suuuure.

Even corporate media are finally starting to say that everyone's supporters behave the same.

I guess they figure Bernie's no longer a threat to them, so they can finally start telling the truth, instead of reading from the talking points of the Hillary campaign and Hillary PACs.

[reddread]

42. Boys will be Boys

God forgive us the sins of our peers.
When they trace that streak of racism and class exploitation for the history books of a very unpleasant future, they will
be running right through the deceit and policy of the Clinton wing of insane imperialism. it wont be pretty.

[merrily]

45. That one was both a misandryist *and* a racist dog whistle, a two fer.

Men old enough to vote, especially black men old enough to vote, should never be referred to as "boys." But they went there.

[reddread]

50. I value them for their candor

while the true acolytes deny past their dying breaths what color the sky.
-which is to say, I appreciate them lowering the pitch of their dog whistle to
where my deaf old ears can hear them.

[1StrongBlackMan]

51. "Obama boys"??? I have never heard that term until just now.

Curious. A quick google search keeps coming back to current "Bernie Bro" objectors who coined the "Obama Boys" language in 2008.

[reddread]

53. welcome to 2016

please share your technology with me.
other than Google. Ive got that.

[merrily]

55. If your sentence means that Obama supporters coined the term Obama boys in 2008, you are wrong.

It was the same people who use "Bernie Bros" now. The people who use Hillary campaign talking points in their columns, like Krugman.

[merrily]

63. P.S. Exactly how "quick" was that google? These were my very first hits

About 57,400,000 results (0.48 seconds)
Search Results

'Bernie Bros' And 'Obama Boys': Echoes Of 2008 In Media's Clinton ...
www.ibtimes.com/bernie-bros-obama-boys-...

International Business Times
Feb 9, 2016 - But that broadside gave life to a more specific narrative in the blogosphere: the scourge of the “Obama Boy,” a term coined in a 2008 Salon ...

WOW. Before the "Bernie Bro," Clinton supporters created the "Obama ...
www.dailykos.com/.../-WOW-Before-the-sexist-Bernie-Bro-Cli...
Daily Kos

Feb 8, 2016 - Yes, that is the Rebecca Traister, the same person who wrote this long essay about bernie bros, talking about sexist “Obama Boys.” And here is ...
Slinging Obama-Boys and Bernie-Bros Hurts Feminism | Observer

observer.com/.../hillary-backers-dissing-obama-boys-and-bernie-bros-hu...
Feb 9, 2016 - Hillary Backers Dissing 'Obama Boys' and 'Bernie Bros' Hurts Feminism. This isn't the first time women's rights have been politicized by Clinton.

'Bernie Bros' Phenomenon Recalls the 'Obama Boys' of '08 | Mediaite
www.mediaite.com/.../bernie-bros-phenomenon-recalls-the-oba...
Mediaite

Feb 9, 2016 - According to Brendan James, writing in the International Business Times Tuesday, the “Obama Boys” of 2008 were an early glimmer of the ugly ...
Hey, Obama boys: Back off already! - Salon.com
www.salon.com/2008/04/14/obama_supporters/
Salon
Apr 14, 2008 - Hey, Obama boys: Back off already! Young women are growing increasingly frustrated with the fanatical support of Barack and gleeful bashing ...

"Bernie Bro," Clinton supporters created the "Obama boy." - Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/.../wow_before_the_bernie_bro_clinton_support...

Feb 8, 2016 - Obama's African-American supporters must have loved being called boy. ..... Link to the Steinem referenced in the "Obama Boys" article:.

[1StrongBlackMan]

65. Yep ... I saw each of those ... did you read any of them?

[merrily]

66. Did you?

[deathrind]

27. No, it is not.

it is only words.

Vote suppression is the act of not letting a person vote because of a physical circumstance or rule.

Mean spirited post are just that...mean spirited posts.

[reddread]

29. how about chlorine gas bombs?

is that suppression or shaming?

[Tarc]

30. Your attempt to tie a 4chan troll meme to Clinton supporters is beyond the pale

For the love of everything sacred, just put a cork in it and stop embarrassing ourself.

[deathrind]

34. Really?

[reddread]

35. yeah really. you read the news?

I personally think that sort of stunt gets results.
what do you think?

[deathrind]

43. I honestly have not seen any news about this.

If true, yes, that would be suppression...

There is a very big difference between "shaming" and threatening violence and there are very specific laws addressing threats.

[reddread]

48. thanks. Im not going to repost yesterdays meme from whatever social disease

but that may be some news you should attend to.
it is, in fact, one of the legs of my argument.
there seems to be no limit.
we need to respond to this brutal, potentially lethal strike at the process.

it must not be treated as amusement or just another social media meme.
it has weight and completely misses the bar of acceptable conduct.
amazing what you can get for one million dollars.
if you shop offshore.

[merrily]

32. How many DU posts have you read claiming DU's left suppresses the vote ala Rove?

[deathrind]

37. I have seen many,

Posts claiming all sorts of things...

Still....just posts.

[merrily]

40. Because no one can discourage anyone else from voting? Disagree.

[deathrind]

46. Fair enough.

People can try to discourage you all they want.

But discouraging someone from doing something vs. actually stopping them are two different things.

[merrily]

49. Yes, but suppressing the vote encompasses both stopping and discouraging and

suppressing the vote was the topic under discussion.

[merrily]

31. I think you mean "Unseen since the 2008 Democratic primary."

The forerunner of Bernie Bros was Obama Boys. That was a double whammy, given the implications of using "boys" in connection with an African American male.

Of course, that's when Hillary described her constituency as "hard-working white people"

[reddread]

61. maybe I meant pre-HRC in the primary?

I dont recall this ugly in 2000 and 2004.
I dont have much expectation of Hillary and Bill to do any better towards real civil rights issues.
Its like a blind spot, only not.

[merrily]

62. Maybe you meant unseen between the Civil Rights Era and Hillary's 2008 primary campaign.

I don't recall that kind of thing in a Democratic primary campaign in my life before 2008, or even hearing of it. I also don't recall anything in a Democratic primary remotely resembling, "Senator McCain and I are ready for that 3 a.m. phone call; Senator Obama is not."

[closeupready]

39. Good point. Like slut shaming, vote shaming is unconscionable.

[trudyco]

41. Ive been reading the responses here

And substituting body shaming for women for the vote shaming for Bernie supporters.
Kind of amusing how the reasoning sounds when you substitute the subject.

[reddread]

44. thank you so much for drawing the comparison

it is a situation of psychological abuse and freedom deprivation.

we need to respond.

[grahamhgreen]

52. They're just sore losers.

[SidDithers]

54. Dunno. Ask at the next caucus...nt

Sid

[Kalidurga]

56. Not exactly Bernie supporters aren't the target.

But, it is a meme to discourage conversations between white Bernie supporters and POC.

[reddread]

58. thank you

makes the most sense of anything.
much appreciated.
too bad Oakland seems unresponsive.
must be home filling out their ballots?

[oasis]

60. "Vote shaming" is why we should do away with caucuses. nt

[Beartooth Bronsky]

64. Bernie and Hillary on Civil Rights...

In the 1960s, I was heavily involved as an organizer for a number of new-left causes. I went on my first Civil Rights march when I was 13. At 13, Hillary, a young Republican conservative, was part of a group canvassing Chicago trying to find evidence of voter fraud against Richard Nixon.

Like myself, Bernie Sanders was involved in the Civil Rights movement. He was a member of Stokely Carmichael's Student Non-Violence Coordinating Committee (SNCC) and Rev. Martin Luther King's Congress of Racial Equality (CORE). He was arrested at at least one civil rights demonstration and taken away in handcuffs. During the height of the Civil Rights struggle, Hillary Clinton was a volunteer for Barry Goldwater's presidential campaign. Goldwater was promising to repeal the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which he had voted against, and return the country to Jim Crow segregation. This did not, apparently dim Ms. Rodham's enthusiasm for his campaign. Nor did she object to Goldwater's opposition to the 1965 Voting Rights Act. In 1967, in her junior year at Wellesley, she was president of the Young Republican's Club. It wasn't until her junior year, in 1968, that she had a sort of epiphany and became a Democrat.

Today, Hillary has inherited her husband's popularity among African-Americans who are totally unaware of both Hillary's anti-integration and Bernie's pro-Civil Rights positions during the height of the Civil Rights struggle. I blame the media and pundits, who have never bothered to explore any of the candidates' past and inform the public about the character of the people they are hyping us to vote for. They are too busy trying to handicap a horse race and explain why what they predicted yesterday failed to happen today.

[2banon]

67. Sure, but it's probably important to qualify it as Political "Psy-Ops"

It's as legitimate a form of voter suppression, as slandering and libel is legitimate in this country against political opponents.

You know like Swiftboating John Kerry, ACORN etc.

It's considered fair game in Amurka's "democracy"

Vote shaming doesn't rise to the level of Institutionalized suppression, sanctioned by law.

But it's sure as hell pretty effective psychological warfare.

Know what it's about, fleck it off like lint and keep your eye on the prize!

[treestar]

68. No because there nothing stops you from voting

Ultimately no one knows who you voted for. Sheesh. Make us look like the people conservatives describe us as.

[reddread]

69. are you saying they dont try?

thank you. I feel better already!

[wildeyed]

70. No.

Holy shit. Really?