From a Lefty to the self-proclaimed Lefties here: Seven Points (a rant from 2007)

[Sparkly]

We seem to get into these "who's the REAL leftist/liberal/progressive" arguments every primary, it seems. This time there's some added weight in the mountain of hatred for Hillary Clinton (regardless of the actual facts about her life and her work), but I thought I'd revisit this post I wrote in 2007, for what it's worth. So much of the discussion is the same, with slight variations. (Not sure what political compass chart I referenced, but here's a recent one.)

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Sparkly/61

From a Lefty to the self-proclaimed Lefties here: Seven Points (a rant)
Posted by Sparkly in General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010)
Fri Oct 12th 2007, 09:39 AM

First, three disclaimers:

- I am about as left as they come. On those political compass charts, I’m –8.5 on both dimensions. I’m a socialist at heart, and consider it neither a bragging point nor a flaw -- just a neutral fact.

- Please don’t pretend this post is about free speech. It should go without saying that you’re free to post whatever you like within DU’s rules (as am I).

- It’s a rant. Sorry if it hurts the tender feelings of people who claim to be steeled for a revolution.


1. What “Left” Is: It’s a pretty broad term, so it’s always debatable (though rarely, if ever, debated here). But by any definition, we’re talking about political philosophy. We’re talking about the role of government; empowerment of people who are oppressed or exploited, especially by capitalism; the problems of class systems, etc. What we are NOT talking about is level of emotion about any particular issue or strong outspokenness about any particular issue. Vehement heartfelt hand-wringing angst about the war may come from a Lefty, but it’s not an automatic correlation. That distinction is rarely made here. Thus conservative and moderate politicians who speak in strong opposition to the US involvement in Iraq are sometimes embraced as “left,” while liberals whose political actions are measured are lambasted for being “right.”

2. “Left” and “Anti-war” are not strictly synonymous. There are conservatives, too, who are against the occupation in Iraq; and socialism, for example, can see militant revolution as progressive. (To the extent that pockets of the civil war in Iraq might involve struggle for power by a lower class, for example, some lefties might not disapprove; but the US involvement in this struggle is still, of course, folly at best.) The most direct means of changing power and moving a country left is, of course, militant uprising. Which leads to #3.

3. Reality is Important (even if it sucks). Are you prepared for a revolution against the U.S. war machine? No? Then is there any other alternative besides accepting the limitations of the democracy we have and working for change within this structure, by peaceful means? If there is, I’d like to know. Otherwise, what are people expecting? To me, it seems there’s a lack of clarity that has people banging their heads against a wall, running around in circles, and then complaining that it hurts and nothing is getting accomplished. Well yeah, for a small minority of people to make huge changes in a democratic, capitalist system is a pretty tall order. Realistically, a quick, thorough, radical leftward shift, through political and nonviolent means, is just not going to happen. Sorry! When it gets right down to it, our loudest voice is our vote. (And we all know the problems with that.)

4. Power is built upward. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: You can’t “move left” either a country or a party by whining, shouting in congressional meetings, harassing Democrats, lauding people like Ralph Nader, or voting for third-party candidates who are destined to lose. It’s not nearly as emotionally cathartic or exciting, but the most effective thing we can do is to try to convince others of our views, and increase the size of this minority at the grassroots. There is power in ideas, in persuasion, and ultimately in numbers, but not in decibels.

5. Not voting for Democrats is a luxury I can afford, but others cannot. Sure, I personally think I can survive if Republicans rule for the rest of my lifetime. If it gets untenable, I can even move to another country. But there are others who literally will not survive, both here and around the world. Do you really care about the social good? Contrary to the stated opinions of some here, the occupation in Iraq is not the only important issue at stake. There certainly are issues that impact the very foundations of our country, the very structures of our society, and the very survival of many, many people. (And there are certainly significant differences between the two parties.) So the claims of ideals and “conscience” in shunning Democrats ring very hollow to my ears.

6. You are not being persecuted for being “left.” Despite the all-too-common proud self-pity on that theme, I’ve rarely seen the term “lefty loonies” used to criticize the political views of being “lefty;” it’s generally more about being “loony.” And as a “lefty” myself, I’d appreciate unlinking the unfortunate correlation between “left” and “loony,” on all sides. Self-proclaimed leftists, please look closer at criticisms and see if they’re really about your leftist views (if any), or whether they may have more to do with perceptions that you are being unrealistic, obnoxious, and/or unhelpful to the progress that nearly ALL here at DU want. And to those who do disparage “lefty loonies,” please also separate behaviors, emotions, and methodology from actual leftist political views. Not all leftists are loony; not all loony people are leftist.

7. I am voting for the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is. I have never voted for anybody but Democrats in my entire life. It is still the one best tool we have, in our system as it is, for having any real impact on government. It won’t get the country where I personally would like it to be, but that is just not going to happen in any case. We will continue to have a capitalist class system, corruption, corporatism, and slow, rusty political machinery. There will still be injustice, outrageous recklessness, discrimination and crazy rightwingers. The reality is, we cannot make all that go away. We can only keep pushing the boulder of progress slowly and deliberately uphill, with determination and resignation against the gravity of reality, if only at times to keep it from sliding downward any further.

Idealism is wonderful, unless it actually impedes real progress. Reality bites. It’s not nearly as emotionally rewarding as idealism, either, but it’s trump. That’s why, while my views may match a third party candidate, this Lefty will always vote for Democrats. Always, and without apology.

[NurseJackie]

1. Excellent! Nicely done, you!

#4 was perfect.

[Sparkly]

3. Thank you, NurseJackie!

I'm feeling a lot of #6 at the moment.

[ismnotwasm]

13. K&R

[Sheepshank]

2. Excellent rant

I am tired (bored) of others telling me how un-progressive, how un-left, how un-democratic I am, because Bernie has a spot on his butt just waiting for my kiss and I'm completely put off by him and refuse.

[Sparkly]

4. Thanks, Sheepshank.

I know what you mean.

[Sheepshank]

5. Kick for well deserved visibility n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

6. K&R!

Nicely done, Sparkly.

[DemonGoddess]

7. Well done Sparkly!

[brer cat]

8. Excellent rant, Sparkly.

You have nailed the points very well.

[sheshe2]

9. Tell it, Sparkly!

[BootinUp]

10. Great post there Sparkly. nt

[Andy823]

11. K&R

Well put. Thanks.

[okasha]

12. K&R

[William769]

14. ALl the arguments we hear against Hillary Clinton are NOT coming from Democrats. nt

[Fawke Em]

16. Yes - many of them are.

[Bonobo]

17. I hate that particular grammatical faux pas so much that I just have to correct you.

You should instead say:

"Not all the arguments we hear..."

[timmymoff]

19. actually they are

quite a few of them anyway. You can put yourself in the corporate citizen united, big money tent if you want. I won't. Screw 'em as they have been screwing us for decades now.

[William769]

20. I'll get back to you when my lear jet lands.

Bad connection problem.

[timmymoff]

22. No need

by the photo you don't need to get back to me at all. I doubt you have anything I am interested in reading. I've seen enough failure from her and enough excuses from her supporters to steer clear.

[Sparkly]

25. Karl Rove says "Thanks."

[timmymoff]

27. To whom

the conservative wing of the democratic party that supports all their ideas? You know who you are.

[Sparkly]

28. To the so-called "leftists" who repeat rightwing scripts

like obedient parrots.

"You know who you are," too.

[timmymoff]

29. Yes I forgot

her record = rightwing scripts. How darest thou question Her Corporateness.

[Sparkly]

30. No, you remembered

that her record = whatever you've heard it is. How dare we question what we've all heard as The Common Wisdom by learning who she is, what she's stood for, what she's accomplished, and what she proposes next, all with daggers coming at her from all sides from the rightwing (and their useful "leftists&quot .

[timmymoff]

31. ok

here's her record you tell me what I am lying about. She voted for the Iraq war and actually gave an impassioned speech promoting it . I await your answer, we can go issue by issue so it isn't difficult.

[Sparkly]

33. Sigh....

She voted for the IWR. I remember her speech. She emphasized that it was not a vote to rush into an Iraq invasion. It was to put teeth into the president's stated plan to urge more inspections and oversight in UN negotiations. Her error was in believing him. However, as senator from NY -- where the worst 9/11 attacks occurred -- she had a very difficult choice, because the prospect of undercutting the president from exercising power in protecting the country would not have served her constituency, especially when it came to containing nukes, at that time.

It was a horrible era, in case you don't remember it. I did not think the IWR should have passed, but I felt for the Democrats who were caught in that predicament. Here's Colin Powell saying, "Look! Here's the evidence!" Most of the country was in a patriotic stupor. There was zero connection with 9/11, yet people wanted to button down every perceived vulnerability.

She did not vote for an immediate invasion. She is not a bloodthirsty monster who delights in murder. She was heavily criticized just for going to Iraq after the invasion, surveying the situation and saying the ultimate outcome was not a clear victory -- how dare she say we might "lose the war?!" they screamed!! How conveniently all that has been forgotten.

You don't have to go issue by issue. Just read up from other sources.

[timmymoff]

34. So you choose to ignore

the many failures. The consistently getting it wrong first then getting it right, and want me to join that fiasco? Tell me that isn't so. It seems she really learned her lesson by her actins in Syria and Libya. Absolute brilliance, wouldn't you say? Kissinger agrees though.

[Sparkly]

36. I'm not going to argue with a closed mind.

The "Kissinger" crack said it all.

It's unfortunate that you don't remember the facts of history, and don't care to know now. It's conversations like this that make me wish there were mandatory conscription again.

Have a nice life.

[timmymoff]

37. he did agree with the policy

so when discussing closed minds you need to look no farther than a mirror.

[timmymoff]

35. sorry I had to respond twice

because of nukes? are you really trying to still continue selling that horse shit answer?

[Sparkly]

38. You must be young

just to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[timmymoff]

39. 51 and long time dem

sorry wrong again.

[Fumesucker]

42. Everyone knows the naive young lady from flyover country was fooled by Dubya's vast intellect

[msanthrope]

23. Those rats don't fuck themselves. Nt

[William769]

24. West Virginia is proof positive of that.

[msanthrope]

26. OMFG Bill......apparently I'm an anti-Semite this week. Or a paid

troll. So when I asked my daughter...whose Jewish name is Pearl...Penina...who she was voting for......she looked at me and said...."Why are all the Presidents men?"

[William769]

32. They have tried to label me a anti-Semite for months!

Hasn't worked though, wanna guess why? As being a troll been down that route too. Not to worry when DU finally gets around to calling Hillary the presumptive nominee, we'll see who the trolls are then. As to the second part, tell her Hillary is about to remedy that.

[Fawke Em]

15. That's nice...

Doesn't change my mind nor the minds of others who simply don't trust Hillary and are concerned she and the other Third Wayer Dems will kill our social safety net with the help of Republicans.

[whatchamacallit]

18. Quoting yourself

Impressive

[aikoaiko]

21. When it comes to the voting booth, I saw follow your conscience -- not what others tell you.

[Turin_C3PO]

40. I pretty much agree with you.

My one quibble with a few Hillary supporters is when the start using repub talking points (freeloaders, old Trotskyist, etc.).

For the record I strongly disapprove of all the RW smears of Clinton being treated like the gospel truth around here. They are far more numerous than the obnoxious Clinton supporters. That's mainly because so many more people on this site prefer Sanders.

[Sparkly]

41. Thank you.

I have not heard anyone say "freeloader" or "old Trotskyist," and I would share your quibble with that.

I also agree the site is quite skewed right now.

[VulgarPoet]

48. I have.

It galls me to even think about considering supporting Hillary when her staunch supporters sound like the same kind of people my father would watch on Fox News.

ETA: Fuck, it's still a broken link. Either way, there's been at least one topic in HRC's group where everything from Maoist to Troskyite got trotted out.

Second ETA: Got links.

Comparison to Troskyites

Comparison to Soviets

Comparison to Maoists

[COLGATE4]

43. A thing of beauty.

[murielm99]

44. Great rant.

K&R!

[Cha]

45. Thanks, Sparkly!

[TreasonousBastard]

46. Not perfect, but quite good...

The Bernistas around here drive me up a wall, just as the Naderites and other lefties in the past have. I am personally a socialist of sorts, but I am well aware that even if I were Emperor of the Universe I couldn't make the planet into what I consider paradise. I am also aware that there may be flaws in what I consider paradise. Bernie has a lot to recommend him, but to threaten to sit out an election of this importance is not a position of honor or integrity-- it is the raving of a spoiled child. Hillary has been in the public eye for decades, and we have a pretty good idea how she would act as President-- which is a lot more sanely than Trump or anyone else in the klown kar.

Opposition to Hillary approaches religion in its reliance on dogma of the left and right. No, she is not perfect, but no one is and she is not the monster she is made out to be. Bad enough that Republicans demonize her, but to be eaten by our own is despicable.

In my real life out here, I have already been informed that my preferred Congressional primary candidate is unworthy because she took a contribution from someone with money. That sort of idiocy could very well wipe out our best chance of tossing our current teabagging congresscritter out of office. This is his first re-election, and if he stays in this time, it may be impossible to get rid of him.

The same people have Bernie signs in their yards.

[Surya Gayatri]

47. Massive K & R. Thanks for posting.

[bigtree]

49. well done!

...big K&R!

[Starry Messenger]

50. K&R

[Armstead]

51. Different decade, but same old shit. Depressing that "realistic" is still the broken record

I find it depressing that your "Anyone but GOP" is still the main selling point 10 years later

It is sad that someone like Sanders who is proposing substantial, but basically mainstream 'common-sense and common decency" reform is being attacked with the same insults by the same intransigent Democratic Corporate Establishment.

Sanders is winning about 40 percent of the primary vote and has generated incredible enthusiasm for saying things that the Democratic party should have been addressing for years. That is a sign that people have been working -- and more importantly there is a strong appetite for reform among a large segment of voters.

But that is still being described as "fringe unrealistic idealists" and "uncompromising purists" blah,blah,bla. Same shit different decade.Different era, but same stale "centrist" memes.

If you are truly "left" as you claim, i can't imagine why you are joining in that chorus that is still trying to crush what you profess what you believe in.