We always get this preachiness from Sanders supporters about how progressive they are

[bigtree]

...compared to Clinton supporters.

The reality in WVa., though, is sobering:

Nate Cohn ?@Nate_Cohn 50m50 minutes ago Washington, DC
Sanders leads 62-29 among voters who want less liberal policies than Obama (39% of electorate)

Benchmark Politics ?@benchmarkpol 54m54 minutes ago
Clinton wins among democratic voters 50-48 / Sanders wins among independent voters 69-22

Nate Cohn ?@Nate_Cohn 28m28 minutes ago Washington, DC
The conservative registered Democrats helping Sanders have helped him elsewhere, especially Oklahoma

Nate Cohn ?@Nate_Cohn 39m39 minutes ago Washington, DC
Where registered Democrats vote Republican in presidenial elections, Sanders wins big. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/10/upshot/where-democrats-like-hillary-clinton-the-least-besides-vermont.html …

[AgingAmerican]

1. Hillary supporters claim to be 'moderates'

Whatever that means...

[NCTraveler]

5. I just checked with Clinton supporters.

They didn't come to an agreement with respect to your assertion.

[sheshe2]

43. +1000

[uponit7771]

46. +1

[LondonReign2]

57. You're right. Hillary voters like to call themselves progressive

and then vote for the candidate supported by PNAC, Republican oligarchs, and murderous ex-Secretaries of State. It is an attempt to redefine progressive to mean regressive.

[NCTraveler]

58. Big time. I also have an enemies list.

I like to emulate my dear leader.

[LondonReign2]

59. Oh, let's not be silly now

On the other hand, you should proudly embrace the support from Robert Kagan, Lloyd Blankfein, and Henry Kissinger. Those are Hillary's kind of folks and you should shout it from the rooftops. More War, More Wall Street has a nice ring to it. Progressive indeed.

[NCTraveler]

61. I thought silly was what you were going for.

Happy Hump Day.

[LondonReign2]

63. I thought ludicrous was what you were going for

Or maybe "Hillary is a progressive" is more farcical than ludicrous, was that the intention?

[NCTraveler]

64. Ludicrous is what I was going for. So you are correct.

I was replying in kind.

[Hortensis]

71. No, LondonReign, our far-lefters badly need a better

name, and identity, something less generic and nothingish, and they've been trying to coopt the fine old word "progressive" to apply only to Bernie's wannabe revolutionaries.

Hasn't worked yet because they've pushing against history and reality, and inertia. After all, the ENTIRE left today is progressive in ideology, and progressivism's leader is the Democratic Party.

And if that's not problem enough, there's also the dormant but very real strain of conservative progressivism that FDR worked with to create the New Deal (to the rage of the sidelined far-lefters of those days).

You guys really should form The Only True Progressive Party, the TOTPP. That one's not taken yet.

[LonePirate]

76. Katy Perry, Shonda Rhimes and George Clooney are Hillary people. Guess which trio America knows.

Your claim is meaningless for supermajorities of Americans.

[NNadir]

77. I'm a Clinton supporter and I don't call myself "progressive." I'm a scientist, and if there's...

...one thing I uniformly note is that people who define themselves as "progressives" are quite open about their contempt for science.

I would never dream of calling myself "progressive," even though, unlike the people who call themselves "progressive" I am very much in favor of progress, even if the label "progressive" has devolved to become an oxymoron.

Have a nice day.

[Sparkly]

66. +1

[silvershadow]

32. It means she ain't changing her true colors- she will continue to be one of the most

conservative members of the party.

[Nonhlanhla]

56. I've never called myself a moderate in my life.

I'm a progressive. This weird habit of some Bernie supporters to make claims on behalf of Hillary supporters about what we believe, how we think, etc., baffles me.

[Dem2]

62. I think Bernie supporters claim Hillary supporters are 'moderate'

[Stallion]

2. Giggle! Clinton Still Wins Registered Democrats

how many primaries has the guy won among registered Democrats? I mean Democrats are apparently supposed to give the Democratic nomination to a candidate that can't win among Democratic voters even in the most hostile environment. In WV there are still a bunch of registered Democrats in name only or for Joe Manchin. They hate the President-and I'm talking about among many Democrats

[Shadowflash]

52. You're right, she does well with registered Democrats

Too bad for Clinton that the GE will consist of more than just registered Democrats.

[MariaThinks]

3. interesting facts

based on the intensity and positions of Bernie supporters, something does seem to be wrong with their progressive label.

[Autumn]

4. Could be they won't vote for the one who said she will put them out of work.

[bigtree]

6. she did not say that

...this canard coming from a supporter of the 'truth' candidate.


FACT CHECK:

Clinton did tell a town hall audience in Columbus, Ohio in March that "we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business." But that was part of a longer answer about the need to help blue-collar workers adjust. "We're going to make it clear that we don't want to forget those people," Clinton said. "Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories. Now we've got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don't want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on."

THE LONG ANSWER:

A lot of coal miners and coal companies are going out of business. This is partly the result of Obama Administration policies designed to combat climate change, by shifting power-production away from carbon-intensive coal. It's also the result of the fracking boom, which has led to a sharp drop in the price of natural gas. Together, these forces have put coal at a competitive disadvantage when it comes to turning on our lights and powering our factories. A decade and a half ago, more than half the electricity in the U.S. was produced by burning coal. Today that's shrunk to less than a third, and coal continues to lose market share to natural gas and renewable sources of power.

Dozens of U.S. coal companies have filed for bankruptcy protection, including Arch Coal, the parent company of the mine where Bo Copley worked. Although the U.S. Supreme Court has put the Obama Administration's power plant rules on hold temporarily, many utilities continue to shift away from coal for both economic and environmental reasons. Coal mining employment dropped below 75,000 in 2014, with Appalachian mines seeing the steepest declines.

Hillary Clinton suggests those jobs are not coming back. "The way things are going now, we will continue to lose jobs," she said Monday. Rather than reversing Obama's climate agenda, as Republicans have promised to do, Clinton wants to help coal country adapt. The $30 billion plan she released last fall calls for increased job training, small-business development, and infrastructure investment, especially in Appalachia. The plan also seeks to safeguard miners' healthcare and pensions. "I have been talking about helping coal country for a very long time," Clinton said this week.

[Autumn]

7. She said exactly that and more. I doubt the media played the "more" about retraining.

She above all people should know not to give the media an inch. I used to think she was more astute than that.

[bigtree]

10. I know for a fact that you don't 'give an inch' about Sanders's statements

...but you perpetuate this lie and act as if it's all in the media's hands.

Such blatant dishonesty.

[Autumn]

16. Try reading what I said. I said "she said that and

more, but I doubt the media played the more". She said those words and they came back to bite her. Quoting her very own words is not blatant dishonesty .

[bigtree]

17. you posted the lie without explanation until confronted with the truth

...you have zero credibility on this thread.

[Autumn]

24. Talk about zero credibility. She said she would put them out of work. No lie there.

That's what she said. That and more, and we all know how the media is.

[Sparkly]

25. Kind of like Al Gore saying he "discovered Love Canal"

or that his mother sang him the Union Label song as a lullaby, or President Obama saying "You didn't build that," or John Kerry saying he was for something before he voted against it...

Context is really important. It's dishonest to mischaracterize someone's meaning.

[dsc]

28. actually he didn't say he discovered love canal

he said a place in TN, which he helped draw attention to, lead to the discovery of Love Canal.

[Sparkly]

36. "I found a little place in upstate New York called Love Canal."

Exact quote.

[w4rma]

54. Exact quote, misleadingly taken *out of context*.

https://books.google.com/books?id=CYvodcROlUEC&pg=PT191&lpg=PT191&dq=%22I+found+a+little+place+in+upstate+New+York+called+Love+Canal.%22&source=bl&ots=lrG7SyMhdc&sig=k1TgRKe7jXvfMXOXPzalwyQXQl0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBpLeKktLMAhWMbT4KHSCoA00Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=%22I%20found%20a%20little%20place%20in%20upstate%20New%20York%20called%20Love%20Canal.%22&f=false

[Sparkly]

65. That's exactly my point.

[Autumn]

30. Exactly. We all know what the media did with that little tidbit don't we. nt

[deathrind]

18. So...

She actually did say that...but that is not what she said...

Clinton did tell a town hall audience in Columbus, Ohio in March that "we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business."

She added the caveat of not "forgetting" about those workers which is noble.

[bigtree]

22. love the pro-coal defenses from the 'progressive' Sanders camp

...truly a profile in hypocrisy.

[workinclasszero]

47. Oh now big dirty climate destroying coal

is suddenly "progressive" to Sander's backers.

Wow.

How "Democratic" Underground that is.

[Kip Humphrey]

55. You have no idea what Sanders position is, do you?

No need to answer. It's obvious you don't.

[workinclasszero]

69. Bernie loves Big Coal

apparently.

That's why all the Trump baggers voted for him right?

[beedle]

60. And your point being?

Remember the Daily News interview of Sanders? The one where Bernie actually answered the right questions, and not the dumb questions of the interviewers, who didn't understand enough about the subject they were asking to even be qualified to be asking the questions?

The media, Clinton, and her supporters didn't give a fuck about any 'canards' then .. they ignored the facts and went with the deadlines created by (being generous) the ignorant NYDN editorial staff.

Spin these days is now fact ... if you didn't want that to happen then Clinton and her supporters should have thought of that before they unleashed ignorance and spin as a weapon ... now it's backfiring ... congratulations, 'Karma's a bitch'.

[aikoaiko]

67. "We don't trust what she says and we don't like what she has done."

[JonLeibowitz]

8. "Sanders wins among independent voters 69-22"

Why can't independent voters be more liberal?

I myself am an independent in California who is far left of Clinton.

[dsc]

29. yes WV is a well known liberal paradise.

[timmymoff]

9. It's not us it's you Hillary

We just aren't that into you.

[bigtree]

11. 3 million-plus more voters than Sanders

...are 'into' Hillary.

[timmymoff]

15. Pretty pathetic considering she has been running for president since 2006

and can't put away an unknown. Oh well, should be interesting in November, you have to get busy and sell this abomination.

[bigtree]

20. she has more voters than Obama's historic run

...against her in 2008.

Your anecdotal logic is mind numbingly obtuse.

[timmymoff]

23. She's the greatest republican candidate to ever run as a democrat

just like her husband.

[bigtree]

26. more mindnumbingly obtuse logic

...more Democrats have voted for Hillary than Sanders.

Nate Cohn ?@Nate_Cohn 4h4 hours ago Washington, DC
Early exits: 40% of WV Dems want more conservative policies, per ABC News; 40% of Sanders supporters prefer Trump, per @SteveKornacki

[timmymoff]

31. Thank goodness only democrats vote in the general

[bigtree]

39. now you're arguing in favor of republican votes

...you call her the 'the greatest republican candidate,' yet argue they won't vote for her in the general.

Find a meme and stick with it.

[timmymoff]

44. You seem to ignore the independents

I know you do it on purpose. It's ok it's part of the same bubble that lets you call her progressive because she has a D behind her name. Forgetting about Zell Miller, Max Baucus, John Breaux and the other democrats that helped us swing right. Bill Clinton being very instrumental in that shift. Enjoy.

[bigtree]

45. you want to shift the goal posts to the general

...and you should know well that election is going to have different dynamics than our Democratic primary.

My posit was about Hillary and Sanders supporters and their political leanings. You can label the candidates any way you want, but in WVa., Sanders supporters look to be the conservatives you're complaining about.

[Skwmom]

12. Liberal does NOT mean the same thing to all people. If fact, it can be just one issue that they

don't like that will make them say they want less liberal policies than Obama.

[Joe the Revelator]

13. Hillary wants to make poor people in West Virginia poorer. She gave 'liberal ideas' a bad name.

If I'm from West Virginia, I'm wanting less 'Clintonian Liberal' policies as well.

[Sparkly]

21. Absolutely false.

I am sorry you believed that distortion.

[Joe the Revelator]

35. Absolutely not. Saying something is false isn't making a point.

But please, tell me how I'm wrong. You can't decimate the way an entire state supported itself without having a backup plan.

[Sparkly]

37. Been debunked repeatedly and thoroughly.

I'm going to go watch Grace & Frankie now.

[Joe the Revelator]

38. So you're bring nothing to the table? Why even be a part of a discussion forum?

Go watch your TV show and save the discussion for the people who have points to make.

[Dem2]

14. Interesting

Just verifies the fact that the internet isn't representative of anything.

[Trust Buster]

19. This just in: Sanders supporters are now pro-coal.

[msanthrope]

27. Yes. HRC is viewed as anti-coal in WV. Nt

[timmymoff]

33. Hillary is viewed as not a democrat in my household

with three voters in Illinois. Bad trend I would say.

[LWolf]

34. Who is this "we" you speak of?

There are more Sanders supporters here than others. We Sanders supporters are certainly included in any DU "we."

I suspect many of us disagree with you about "preachiness," as many have disagreed with all of the various attacks posted here against us.

And one thing I know "you've" always had a chance to "get," but have refused:

Clinton gets some pretty strong support from within the party. Sanders gets support within, and much, much more crossover support, including conservatives.

If he's getting them outside party boundaries, why wouldn't he also be getting them from within?

I may be too far left for what's become of the Democratic Party, but I still recognize broad appeal when I see it, and Sanders has it.

[bigtree]

41. he's trailing far behind Hillary with black and Latino voters

...while she's remained competitive among white voters.

Hillary has a much 'broader' appeal among Democrats, whatever the merits you might see in his appeal to conservatives in our primary.

[whatchamacallit]

40. More inability to grasp the taxonomy of Sanders' coalition

We are not monolithic. Most of us are on the left, some are on the right. We are individuals and don't share identical ideology. What we do share is a deep distrust of Hillary Clinton. Hope that helps.

[hellofromreddit]

42. None of your OP actually supports what you claim.

Do you even want to push a "guilt by association" argument when you support Clinton? Not only is it bad logic, but her associations over the years are among her biggest weaknesses. Kissinger, Brock, Trump, et al. You're leaving yourself wide open.

[Demsrule86]

48. No not sobering

Operation chaos in play...30-40% of Bernie voters would vote for Trump over Bernie in the fall. Also, we have not taken WVA since 96. They voted for a prison inmate in 12 to who their disdain and hatred of the president...this is a racist state and a win here is meaningless for Democrats when the voters are really Trump supporters creating chaos. The math is still the math.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Because

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

[blackspade]

75. Ah, the horseshit 'horseshoe' theory.

A made up Neoliberal political canard designed to stifle left leaning criticism of the oligarchy.

[bigtree]

80. this is a deliberate strategy of the right wing

...to cynically co-opt the opposition of the progressive left to try and deepen the wedge between members of our party.

Not surprising to hear some of the most vocal cohorts strongly denying the nexus.

[forjusticethunders]

50. Looks like a huge chunk of the Bernie vote

is about racist white identity politics (oh right we can only accuse non-whites, non-males and non-straights of playing identity politics, I forgot) ,against a woman who is being backed by a progressive, multiracial, diverse coalition)

[bigtree]

51. it shouldn't surprise anyone that a campaign which devolved into an anti-Hillary effort

...is attracting conservative votes which intend to hurt Hillary in our primary election.

The reasons why should be obvious, but the narrative from the Sanders camp prevents them from facing the truth about Hillary's support which (as you point out) is made up of 'movements' of black, Latino, and women voters which outstrip anything the Sanders camp has been able to generate at the voting booth.

[forjusticethunders]

53. In many ways I voted and will vote as much if not more for Hillary's coalition

as much as I voted/will vote for Hillary herself.

[Rebkeh]

68. Bernie's message speaks to all, especially working class and poor people...

Last edited Wed May 11, 2016, 01:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Incidentally, so does Trump. This does not mean they are anywhere near the same.

One responds to the anger with practical solutions, the other validates their anger with hate.

Apples and Potatoes.

Stop trying to equate Bernie with Trump, it's laughable - and embarrassing.

[bigtree]

70. you made that leap, yourself

...did you really think it wouldn't be noted that so many of the WVa. Sanders voters intended to vote for Trump? That's interesting enough, all by itself, without projecting whatever you imagined I meant by pointing that out.

I don't have any doubt that this isn't an anomaly, but something which characterizes much of his crossover appeal.

[Rebkeh]

72. It's pretty simple why Bernie appeals to Trump voters

Trump supporters, hateful and misguided as they are (I'm no fan of theirs), do have legitimate anger about economic injustice. They look for leadership, not contempt, and Bernie wants to provide such leadership. It would behoove all of us to let Bernie lead, their anger affects us all. Trump appears to attempt to lead them, immorally so, but at least he validates their legitimate concerns.

There's no "crossover," as you call it. Be honest, come on. It's authentic leadership and honest representation in a representative democracy.

Bernie is doing his job, and if we let him, we can de-escalate the hate to some degree. (See how that works?)

[bigtree]

73. it's simpler than that

...the Sanders campaigned has devolved into little more than an anti-Clinton effort, so it makes sense that our primary would provide opportunities in states which allow crossover votes to try and knock Clinton out of the nom or injure her politically.

I think the Sanders campaign has alienated a sizable number of Democratic voters. That's a failure of leadership, imo.

[blackspade]

74. We always get this preachiness from Clinton supporters about how pragmatic they are

...compared to Sanders supporters.

[frylock]

79. Real realists from the reality based community.

[blackspade]

81. Get real!

What are you really trying to say?

[Attorney in Texas]

78. First, you seem to (incorrectly) assume independents are less progressive than Democrats. Some

independents are not Democrats because the Democratic party is too conservative (and some are independent because the Democratic party is too liberal and some are independent for other reasons). You are inaccurate to make such assumptions about independents.

Second, Sanders is not only more liberal and more progressive than Hillary, he is also more populist than Hillary. Some of Sanders' supporters who support Sanders in large part because of his economic populism are NOT NECESSARILY particularly progressive or liberal. What your post refers to as "conservative registered Democrats" are largely economic populists who are also commonly referred to as "Reagan Democrats." NOTE: these are the Democrats that we are at greatest risk of losing to Trump if we nominate an elitist neoliberal/neocon.