Confirmed: Sanders is selling a fantasy agenda of epic proportions

[Cali_Democrat]

By Stephen Stromberg May 9 at 1:49 PM

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) has attracted a passionate following because he is selling his followers a fantasy. And not just any fantasy — but one of epic proportions. A group of respected, nonpartisan experts offered the public a sense of the scale on Monday, releasing the most thorough analysis yet on Sanders’s plan and finding that it is profoundly flawed. Before the Democrats agree to adopt his agenda, a price they might pay to get him to end his doomed campaign, they should be clear about what they are signing onto.

The analysts found that Sanders’s program is very progressive, jacking up taxes massively on the rich and providing a range of new benefits to the poor. Though every working person would face higher payroll taxes, the value of these benefits would leave 95 percent of households better off. They granted Sanders that his single-payer health system, in which the government would pay for everyone’s care and demand no co-payments or other cost-sharing, would expand health-care access and cut the growth of health-care costs, and they made “aggressive” assumptions about how much the new system would reduce drug and other prices.

But there is a massive catch. Sanders’s assurance that he has “a plan to pay for every spending program he has introduced to date” is wrong. And not just wrong, but extravagantly so. Even with his large tax increases, Sanders would fall $18 trillion short over just 10 years. Factoring in interest costs, his plan would add $21 trillion to the debt over a decade. That is more than the roughly $19 trillion the Treasury already owes. And the picture would probably get much worse as time went on. Expanding Social Security, for example, would become much more expensive as more people retired.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/05/09/confirmed-sanders-is-selling-a-fantasy-agenda/

[LexVegas]

1. We knew it a long time ago. nt

[Sheepshank]

4. He likely also knew that he was sellig a fantasy that was unlikely to ever get enacted...so why not?

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. 6:15 - Let's have Spam for supper.

[griffi94]

3. Voters saw that when he gave the interview to the NYD news

He couldn't answer a simple question with a real answer.

Instead he started talking about protest marches and the
need for political revolution.

That's why Hillary is crushing him
in the primaries and 3 million more voters
preferred her.

[Human101948]

9. Except that he gave a perfectly acceptable explanation...

“Well actually, you know, there’s great fact checking done on this in the New York Times, which I hold as a higher standard of a paper… I think most New Yorkers hold the Times a little bit higher than the Daily News and New York Post. But they fact checked this and they basically said that he was right on this. You know the point if you read the entire transcript, which is very long, took about 45 minutes to read. He went into detail about how the determination of how to break up the big banks lies within Congress or the president, and the president gives authority to the Fed.

http://usuncut.com/politics/ny-daily-news-argument-destroyed-cnn/

You have to give credit to the Hillary minions who misrepresented the content of the interview. They convinced easily manipulable people like yourself that he couldn't explain his policy.

[griffi94]

17. He started talking about marching

on the capital when there were votes scheduled.
That was his solution to getting his agenda thru
congress.

Obviously the majority of Democratic primary voters felt the same way.

They didn't trust his ideas enough to vote for him.

[Human101948]

75. Not surprising since they've been brainwashed for decades...

by Democratic Party politicians who have tacked rightward chasing corporate cash and told them that's the best they can expect.

Bernie proved that you can run a campaign withot selling your sell to Wall Street. And a a very large proportion of primary voters voted for him.

Hillary fans have to keep repeating her less than impressive lead over Bernie because they see how weak her victories have been over a aging socialist who a year or so ago was 60 points behind.

[griffi94]

82. A couple of things

He didn't get enough votes to win.

And her "less than impressive lead over Bernie"
is more than double the lead Obama had
on Hillary in 2008.

He got crushed.

[Human101948]

84. Close to half of the primary voters don't want her...

That is not crushed, especially when an international celebrity is running against an aged socialist who had virtually no recognition beyond his state at the start. She should be winning by a 30% or 40% margin.

And by the way, she was defeated in 2008 by another virtually unknown Senator from Illinois.

She is weak, weak, weak!

[griffi94]

86. She is winning winning winning

hundreds more delegates and millions more votes.

Scoreboard.

[Human101948]

87. And losing to Trump...

The only poll that counts is in November, but her weakness against Trump is frightening.

[griffi94]

88. Since you can't tell the future

that's just speculation.

Right now.
The reality is.
Hillary is winning.

Bernie lost. He's not going to be president
he's not even going to be a nominee for president.

Scoreboard.

[Human101948]

89. Here's another scoreboard...

consider recent polls of two of Florida's swingiest legislative swing districts:

***An April 24-28 EMC Research (MoE =/1 4.9 percent) of Florida House District 69 in Pinellas County - represented currently by Republican Kathleen Peters of South Pasadena and won twice by Barack Obama - found Trump with 48 percent support and Clinton with 44 percent. Fifty-eight percent of voters in that swing district had an unfavorable view of Trump, and 58 percent had an unfavorable view of Clinton.

***A March 17-21 EMC poll (MoE =/- 5.6 percent) of state Sen. District 24 - represented by Republican Jeff Brandes of St. Pete, including parts of Pinellas and Hillsborough County, and won narrowly by Obama twice and comfortably by Charlie Crist in 2014 - showed Trump beating Clinton in that district 49 percent to 41 percent.

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/exhibits-a-and-b-on-why-donald-trump-may-win-florida/2276083

[griffi94]

91. That's not a scoreboard

That's an opinion poll.

And it's for an election that doesn't happen til November.

Neither of the nominees have started to fully campaign yet.

Hillary is starting to focus on Trump but that's only been in the last
couple of weeks.

Here's a checkable fact.

Hillary is ahead of Bernie by an insurmountable
amount of pledged delegates and millions more votes.

Scoreboard.

[Human101948]

92. Keep repeating your mantra...

you may reach Nirvana.

[Human101948]

90. Another scoreboard

CLINTON-TRUMP CLOSE IN FLORIDA, OHIO, PENNSYLVANIA,
QUINNIPIAC UNIVERSITY SWING STATE POLL FINDS
---
FLORIDA: Clinton 43 – Trump 42; Sanders 44 – Trump 42
OHIO: Clinton 39 – Trump 43; Sanders 43 – Trump 41
PENNSYLVANIA: Clinton 43 – Trump 42; Sanders 47 – Trump 41
In a race marked by wide gender, age and racial gaps, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and
Donald Trump are running neck and neck in the key presidential Swing States of Florida, Ohio and
Pennsylvania, but Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont runs stronger against the likely Republican
nominee, according to a Quinnipiac University Swing State Poll released today. https://www.qu.edu/images/polling/ps/ps05102016_Sw4b42d.pdf

[liberal from boston]

64. Go Bernie

Thank You Human101948. NYDN interview has been debunked by not only the NY Times, Rolling Stone, Robert Reich, Bill Moyers, Juan Gonsalves. Hillary minions push this lie knowing that Senator Sanders introduced the Bill Too Big To Fail, Too Big To Exist.

[seabeyond]

5. Damn straight he is, but then if you do not follow the pied piper, then we are Republican. Nt

Last edited Mon May 9, 2016, 07:54 PM - Edit history (1)

[sheshe2]

44. That about sums it up.

Thanks, seabeyond.

[padfun]

6. Yep. Unfortunatley we dont have the brains in this country

to do what EVERY friggin advanced country in the world has already done.

It's a sad commentary on the brain trust of the USA.

[libdem4life]

8. We can't afford it. Never mind our 1% don't pay taxes. Pie in the sky, indeed.

[Corporate666]

22. You lied

The top 1% pay an effective tax rate of 22.8%

http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-0

Perpetuating lies simply to gain favor with low-information voters (or being a low-information voter and perpetuating falsehoods) does you a disservice. When people realize you are lying, they reject everything you say - even things which are true.

It's always a better policy to argue the real issue hoenstly, rather than lying about it to try to curry favor with people who do not understand an issue.

[libdem4life]

34. Don't lecture me...I've worked in the industry. There are so many friggen

lookpholes that they pay rich attorneys to get around that is laughing matter to them. The Panama Papers are just the tip of the iceburg. Much of the American iceburg is in Delaware.

Get off your high horse. This is total Bull.

And I don't need to "curry favor" with any anonymous internet poster...you flatter yourself.

[padfun]

56. You're right.

They bought and paid for this system. And they own Congress. We are just the plebes.

And the Panama Papers ARE just the tip. Money isn't invested anymore. It is stored offshore. This wont be changed easily if at all.

[libdem4life]

73. It's another element in this very eventful election season. Bernie was right,

of course every one knows the system is rigged. They just don't like to be reminded...either because they are part of it, or they will never be part of it.

[liberal from boston]

65. Go Bernie

Robert Reich stated what is needed now is a bold vision not the status quo. Exit polls show American voters want change.

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/01/14/170-economists-bernie-sanders-plan-reform-wall-st-rein-greed.html

[Corporate666]

20. You're being dishonest

It is simply a lie to say that every advanced country in the world has done what Sanders wants to do.

Most countries do not have "free" college. The very few that do are not even in the same league as the USA higher educational system.

Most countries do not have single payer health care.

Most countries do not break up banks.

Most countries do not have a "living wage" as the minimum wage.

Most countries do not have protectionist trade agreements in place.


You render your post worthless when it is intellectually dishonest.

[larkrake]

58. That is not true, our educational system sucks and is far down the list

Many countries indite their bankers, do not believe in death penalties, have single payer, and jobs include 2 months vacation paid, maternity and paternity paid leave and all this is included in wages, the value of these benefits bring wages well above $20/hr. Yes, they are taxed higher, bring down wage value to 15-17/hr. Colleges are free, they just dont force students to pay for football programs thru tuition. Only private schools charge.

I have lived in Europe, asia and Aus. All are better cared for, educated and happier than US citizens and they have a voice in their governments.

Please stop waving the flag and educate yourself

[dsc]

81. certainly not our higher ed system

and arguably not our secondary system. Post secondary our education system is second to none in terms of quality. Secondary we educate and test way more of our population than even Europeans do at the high school level.

[larkrake]

93. We educate to test, not to learn

Our educational system is sorely inadequate. Every state has cut school budgets to pay for stadiums and special interest projects, teachers are not allowed to teach anything but revisionist history. Our higher ed does not measure up to Europe's or Asia's, even our trade schools are sad. The Kochs have influenced curriculum's, religious zealots forbid reality being taught, even english lit is finding it hard to be funded. Colleges are now for profit corporations that protect rapists, athletes and donors and silence objectors. The wise educated professors are dying off and being replaced by opinionated uneducated assholes. Good teachers are being shut down for fear the truths may inspire kids to fight for their rights.

How many 20 somethings today cannot spell, or cannot read cursive, believe everything they read online or see in corporate news.

[Octafish]

72. Really! What do they want next? Fly to the moon?

Impossible.

[KingFlorez]

7. Call 1-900-555-BERN for the best fantasy you've ever had

*6.99 a minute will be charged to your phone bill*

[Human101948]

10. Are you still calling those 900 numbers?

Where have you been bro?

[KingFlorez]

19. They don't exist anymore

And I've never called one, I just remember the commercials.

[libdem4life]

21. This is totally uncalled for and, might I add, sexist as hell.

Get hold of yourself. This is an election not a porn convention...although...oh, never mind.

I'd self-delete, "King", if I were you.

[KingFlorez]

25. How is it sexist?

900 numbers pushed fantasies and so does Sanders. Not sure how that equals sexist.

[libdem4life]

38. Give me a break...were you born last month? Most "fantasies" that pay $6

a minute are not political. Get my drift? See the stupidity? Let me enlighten you.

It's porn numbers that allow mostly men to, um, visit, King.

Do you have a 900 number for Sanders Fantasy Voters?

[KingFlorez]

41. Sanders fantasies cost big money

As evidenced by the actual budget numbers. Like 900 numbers, Sanders pushes good things, but a rude shock would come with the bill.

[libdem4life]

46. Wrong again...all Sanders needs to pay for these programs that

the rest of the industrialized world, as well as some who we consider Banana Republics, is to require the rich and the Corporations to pay their fair share. Since we are so used to them getting off scot free, it doesn't dawn on the Peasants (that would be those of us on an internet site) that there is any other way.

I've touted the timeless writing of socrates in Platos's Cave many times, and you've inspired me to do it again. Thanks. This is a short version as a kind of cartoon, as most who aren't aware have a very short attention span.

[BootinUp]

12. In my opinion making irresponsible proposals like he did makes it harder

for us to achieve real progress by splitting us apart and also giving more fuel to those who say the liberals can't be trusted.

[bjo59]

13. Ahhh... the Washington Post. Enough said.

[Art_from_Ark]

45. You mean the Bezos "I Wanna Protect My Billions" Post?

Yep, enough said.

[Surya Gayatri]

14. Massive K & R. Thanks for posting.

[ucrdem]

15. Apparently the revolution will live on

in the Trump campaign: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-minimium-wage-hike-reversal

"Sure, it's a change. I'm allowed to change," he said. "But my real minimum wage is going to be — I'm going to bring companies back into this country, and they're going to make a lot more than the $15 even."

[mmonk]

16. Tax and spend liberals!

Why can't they kiss the feet of freedom (the rich) and why do they hate war? Don't they know what the Democratic Republican Party stands for?

[Trust Buster]

18. Sanders was trying to entice voters by doubling the national debt and still lost. That's pretty bad.

[BootinUp]

23. That trick only works with the pukes. nt

[libdem4life]

26. OMG...it might end up that the rich and corporations who currently pay NO taxes

might actually have to pay their fair share. I'm no economist, but given the obscene numbers I've seen, it should allow us to be at least on par with the bottom four of the "Industrialized Nations" and above many non-industrialized nations.

And also, shore up the Social Security fund by increasing the convenient cap for the wealthy.

What are you doing on a Democratic site? I think you have the wrong url here.

[Trust Buster]

33. I said "doubling the national debt". That infers that much would not be paid for by anyone.

[libdem4life]

42. See, but programs that pay for themselves don't do that.

That's the little kink in the proposal. There are plenty of ways to pay for these unicorns and ponies that most industrialized nations enjoy as a right.

Here in the good 'ol USA we have people like you and yours playing Chicken Little...the sky is falling, the sky is falling...when in reality, it's the rich and the corporations daring us to meddle in their comfy financial nest.

Then there is the MIC, but that's another issue...appropriate, but don't want to stress out the post here into too many areas of thought.

[Trust Buster]

57. If I had a dollar for every time someone suggested that a government program would pay for

itself, I'd be a millionaire.

[libdem4life]

60. No, you'd be a Republican or a Democrat.

Do you not agree that there is obscene amounts of money being shoveled into
"legal" tax shelters and that many get off tax free? Or the SS tax break at only $250,000? Or do you think they just willingly pay what the charts tell them...like the peasants do.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[Trust Buster]

62. Deflections. Much of Sanders' proposals would not be paid for by anyone.

[libdem4life]

63. Yeah, you go with that. He's said many times how they would be paid for.

But he's not politically correct...I get that. But the genie will not go back into the bottle. So, time will tell. He didn't get filthy rich in the past 20 years. What does he know?

It's only a matter of time. Impeachment, at the very least, awaits Ms. Golden Sacks if she can fend off Trumps attacks...and no, I'm not sorry. She's pushed it way over the limit.

[liberal from boston]

66. Go Bernie

170 Economists Endorse Bernie Sanders' Plan to reform Wall Street and rein in Greed:

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/01/14/170-economists-bernie-sanders-plan-reform-wall-st-rein-greed.html

[Trust Buster]

67. But 3 million more Democratic voters did not endorse Sanders.

[AgingAmerican]

24. Everything in his agenda is decidedly mainstream

And everything in his policy agenda polls widely popular across the political spectrum.

[ucrdem]

28. Yes, in fact they were basically KABAM! POW!! versions of existing Dem policies

except for anti-trade which is a repuke policy.

[AgingAmerican]

31. The Republicans are for corporate trade agreements

[EndElectoral]

27. And Clinton is selling nothing.

Except a neo-conservative foreign policy and whatever Wall Street has paid her to do.

[ucrdem]

32. Bernie isn't running on foreign policy and for all intents and purposes his proposed foreign policy

as best it's possible to determine is identical or worse than Clinton's. The rest is simply wishful thinking.

[libdem4life]

51. No, there are such things as planning for the future, rather than waiting

until all the lights are green to start. That's what Leaders do. They see a better future, and communicate it to others who join them and move forward. That's the Yes, we can.

The No, it's too Hard folks, well they just stay where they are...and sucks to be anyone lower down the pecking order.

Same for war. It's easy to send your sons and daughters out to pound sand and maybe not return than to do the harder work of diplomacy, respect, compromise and other aspects the US as World Emperor does not stoop to. We have drones, you know.

Any element of progress started in someone's mind...when it was not possible. They say that the solution to a problem never resides in the problem itself, but must originate in another solution.

That would be what is required of a Leader. HRC is one of the latter..."Let's just be happy with what we have and I've got that down."

[Actor]

29. Why is single payer a fantasy here and doable everywhere else?

Nobody has EVER answered that.

[beastie boy]

48. Wherever it's doable (and it's not everywhere else), there is a will by the voters to pay

much higher taxes across the board. There is none in the US.

BTW, give credit to Obama's incrementalism here. We are now half way closer to single payer now than we were five years ago.

[NCTraveler]

30. Sanders is an activist who decided to go with the flow in his thirties.

He isn't a nuts and bolts guy. He's done well for himself making a living.

[Actor]

39. Done well for himself? Other than his salary, how has he?

[NCTraveler]

43. I'm talking about his salary.

And stable lifestyle. I didn't realize that was controversial.

[sheshe2]

47. Doesn't he and his wife..

also get prime healthcare for life?

[NCTraveler]

50. Yes. I think so. Nt

[scscholar]

35. If you have to multiply your numbers by ten...

to make them look larger, then you don't have a point. Why can't they just say how much they think it will cost without multiplying it by ten to make it falsely appear an order of magnitude larger?

[Zynx]

40. Then ten-year score is the conventional framework in budget analyses at the federal level.

This is prudent since certain programs hit in different years and certain tax plans have timing issues as well.

[scscholar]

49. Then we should use 100 years to make the numbers even bigger!

sigh

[insta8er]

36. So good you had to post it twice?

[Bill USA]

37. HBR article Why We Pick Leaders with Deceptively Simple Answers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1929682

As Freud saw it, groups amplify emotions and inhibit critical thinking. When people come together in numbers, they are more likely to be swept up in a shared fear or to be enthused by a common faith than they are to engage in reasoned problem solving. For Freud, group membership is a kind of love that makes people vulnerable and often spells trouble.

Groups, he observed, are eager to follow not those who present the most accurate picture of reality, but those who most clearly reflect group members’ cherished ideals. And the more distressing the group’s reality is, the more those ideals became divorced from it.
(more)

[Go Vols]

55. "No We Can't!"

simple and to the point.

She told Obama similar in 08 about ACA.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/18/1471309/-Hillary-No-We-Can-t

[SmittynMo]

52. Total bullshit

Of all the bullshit listed in this article, only 3 sentences reference an actual dollar amount, with nothing to back it up other than to post the "trillion" number. Yeah, I believe the author of this article. NOT!!!!!!

[Rass]

53. Freedom!

Those damn Europeans with their universal healthcare and free schools! They should know that it is impossible! We need that money for war and being the world police. That's freedom fries not french fries!

[whatchamacallit]

54. CONFIRMED

by someone.

[laundry_queen]

69. Here let me fix that for ya

CONFIRMED by someone....who is trying to protect their billions and their friends' billions.

[rock]

59. Yep

If you're going to lie in politics, lie big.

[coyote]

61. "No we can't"...uniquely American

Somehow countries in Europe are able to provide and manage the programs that Bernie is offering.

Enjoy the the koolaid.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

68. There's going to be a lot of disappointed people - especially the young ones who don't realize

that during campaigns, a LOT of promises are made but not kept. Even by saintly Bernie.

[frylock]

70. A group of respected, nonpartisan former Clinton staffers.

[Number23]

71. Which sure as HELL explains why even he can't intelligently explain what his agenda is. Or how he'll

go about making any of it a reality.

[Betty Karlson]

74. So I guess this is your response to the newest poll from West-Virginia?

Yeah: Sanders is ahead of the Inevitable Lady. Something to do with consistency in word, trust and favorability, and actually caring about blue-collar jobs.

[Gothmog]

76. Krugman- Sanders health plan looks a little bit like a standard Republican tax-cut plan

Prof. Krugman has been saying for some time that the Sanders plan did not add up and Prof. Krugman was correct http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/weakened-at-bernies/?_r=0

On health care: leave on one side the virtual impossibility of achieving single-payer. Beyond the politics, the Sanders “plan” isn’t just lacking in detail; as Ezra Klein notes, it both promises more comprehensive coverage than Medicare or for that matter single-payer systems in other countries, and assumes huge cost savings that are at best unlikely given that kind of generosity. This lets Sanders claim that he could make it work with much lower middle-class taxes than would probably be needed in practice.

To be harsh but accurate: the Sanders health plan looks a little bit like a standard Republican tax-cut plan, which relies on fantasies about huge supply-side effects to make the numbers supposedly add up. Only a little bit: after all, this is a plan seeking to provide health care, not lavish windfalls on the rich — and single-payer really does save money, whereas there’s no evidence that tax cuts deliver growth. Still, it’s not the kind of brave truth-telling the Sanders campaign pitch might have led you to expect.

Again, as noted by Prof. Krugman this plan does not add up.

[gollygee]

77. It isn't a fantasy. It's a vision.

It's an idea of what we could be. Even if we can't get there quickly, with the current Congress, in the span of one presidency, my favorite thing about Bernie is that he gives us a vision of where he'd like to see the US. What our potential future could be. I'm a fan of long term thinking.

People need to see this as a vision or a goal rather than as a specific plan for his first four years of office.

I am editing to add another thought. Some of the things Bernie is paying for we do pay for already, just in different ways from how we would in the future. We pay TONS in this country for healthcare. We don't need to pay more money. We need to collect the same amount of money we are already collecting in a different way and spend it in a more fair way. It isn't always about collecting more money.

[JCanete]

78. well if none of this i possible, why not admit that you aren't looking for

incremental change towards something progressive(since actually achieving it is akin to birthing unicorns), and come out and own that you like the system we have? If its impossible to fund these things, then why not admit that there is no incremental change that is going to take us there?

People should quit talking out of both sides of their mouths, on the one side, saying we need Hillary because she understands how to change the system incrementally and anything bigger is a pipe dream, and on the other side, taking turns telling us either why our current system should not be changed..."we need free trade&quot not fair trade apparently), "Wall Street are job creators", "the rich pay their fair share!." Yes, I've heard all of those arguments here.

I'll give you this much, with enough money and corporate water-carriers to make it impossible, big change will definitely remain so. If that's what you're into, and I suspect it is, then good job!

[Katashi_itto]

79. Wonderful, lovely Spam!

[thesquanderer]

83. OTOH, "Urban Institute’s Attack On Single Payer: Ridiculous Assumptions Yield Ridiculous Estimates"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-himmelstein/the-urban-institutes-attack-on-single-payer-ridiculous-assumptions-yield-ridiculous-estimates_b_9876640.html

Bottom line, it was just another incomplete analysis.

In the end, ANY ambitious plan begins with a goal, and a rough plan about how to get there, and projections about the future, which, by definition, includes assumptions and uncertainties. The exact details would be subject to negotiation at the start, and modification in the future, just like everything else.

[Orsino]

85. Same ol' $18T right-wing talking point. n/t