2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumMichael Moore: I値l support Hillary Clinton if she痴 the nominee
Politico:Michael Moore is an avowed Bernie Sanders supporter and has been for years. But while the outspoken filmmaker and liberal activist says hes with Sanders till the end, he quickly notes hell support former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton if shes the nominee.
Oh absolutely. Shes better than the alternative and she will do some good," Moore said in an interview on Sunday. "Unfortunately I cant support her during the primaries because she voted for the Iraq war and shes not really going to fix corporate America and Wall Street. Theyll still be calling the shots in her White House so that makes it difficult for people who care about those issues."
Moore said he's been a Sanders supporter for decades, having campaigned for him while Sanders was running for Congress in Vermont. Clintons enthusiasm gap problem, he said, is reflective of how he feels about her: Shes better than the alternative.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)Orrex
(63,220 posts)Last edited Tue May 10, 2016, 02:59 PM - Edit history (1)
It was a close one...[hr]On Tue May 10, 2016, 01:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
He is both a patriot and not a moron. So of course he does.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1929482
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This is over the top. The poster paints anyone who for whatever reason cannot ethically support hillary clinton if she gets the nomination as morons.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue May 10, 2016, 01:27 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: In comparison to countless other posts that have been allowed to stand, there is nothing wrong with this one.
Leave it.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm pretty sure the ToS says we need to support the nominee, or at the least, can't speak against them. I'm don't think I'm going to hide a post insulting such people in such a round-about way.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: get a grip.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Many Hillary supporters on DU are VERY RUDE; however, I don't believe in censoring them. Let them show who they really are...
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Bogus Alert. Get over it.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
LeftRant
(524 posts)riversedge
(70,275 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)...heh.
Lisa0825
(14,487 posts)politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)drm604
(16,230 posts)brooklynite
(94,688 posts)thesquanderer
(11,990 posts)especially among those in swing states.
There may be a vocal handful of never-Hillarys, but realistically, there are probably very very few who would actually want to risk Trump beating Hillary. Maybe some independents, but almost no Dems.
So no, people aren't going to be throwing Moore under the bus over this common sense answer, despite all the comments in this thread to the contrary.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)That would go for most Bernie supporters. In fact I'm surprised you posted his very on point commentary. Mike nails it.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)WatchWhatISay
(3,426 posts)Trump would probably further privatize water so many wouldnt be able to afford it, or it wouldnt be safe to shower in. You know: free market capitalism = GOD
He isn't talking policy specifics because he knows many of his supporters would run screaming if they knew what he has in mind.
mdbl
(4,973 posts)since others in her family were so keen on privatization.
http://www.businessinsurance.org/prison-industry/
https://www.laprogressive.com/monica-lewinsky/
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)is less evil."
Progressives take what they can get. And then they have a new place to start from. Obama!
GoldenThunder
(300 posts)...soon our "lesser of two evils" choice will be between Fascist A and Fascist B.
The road to hell has been paved. The ribbon-cutting ceremony is underway. The Neo-Cons and Neo-Libs each have their hands on that giant pair of scissors.
The hour groweth late.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)ground!!!
nxylas
(6,440 posts)But royalists are always assuring us that this is what will happen, so it must be true.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Samples:
FlaGranny
(8,361 posts)post is that Michael Moore did NOT endorse Clinton. He endorsed Sanders. Then he said if Sanders does not get the nomination he would vote for Hillary because she is better than Trump. Big difference there. And actually, I completely agree with Moore, and I won't feel good if I have to vote for her, but in voting for her I would not be endorsing her. I would be voting for the better of the two remaining candidates. That poster's reading comprehension leaves a bit to be desired.
MADem
(135,425 posts)MM 'was' thrown under the bus by some angry Sanders supporters, as the quotes illustrate.
FlaGranny
(8,361 posts)And I said their reading comprehension was lacking.
Response to MADem (Reply #58)
Name removed Message auto-removed
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Jitter65
(3,089 posts)This is unacceptable!
SusanLarson
(284 posts)Just as it is my right is to write in Bernie Sanders, or to stay home. As long as we continue to accept lesser of two evils candidates the system will never ever have any hope of changing for the better.
Hekate
(90,771 posts)mac56
(17,574 posts)Just as it is my right to say that a Hillary nomination hand-delivers the Presidency to Drumpf wrapped up with a big beautiful bow.
tomm2thumbs
(13,297 posts)Chicago1980
(1,968 posts)Throwing a tantrum based on ideological purity isn't the best use of a vote is it?
Do you think that Bernie Sanders is going to write in Bernie Sanders name? NO...
Hillary isn't a lesser of two evils, she's not evil at all, just because you may not agree with everything she says or does.
Writing in a name of someone who'd never win with write ins or now voting at all isn't changing anything for the better at all.
robbob
(3,537 posts)I can't look into her eyes and gauge the nature of her soul. But I will say this: I think she has a lot of blood on her hands.
<on edit> it occurred to me worth mentioning that the expression "lesser of two evils" does not (usually) mean making a choice between two things which are literally "evil" in the theological or moral sense of the word. Rather, it means having to choose between two unappealing options.
Chicago1980
(1,968 posts)Most people in positions of political power have had to make life or death decisions,
including Bernie. He's kind of okay with drones right?
Making a statement as you did is a bit off the mark as well.
robbob
(3,537 posts)I respect and admire many things President Obama has done, especially the way he has conducted himself in the face of unrelenting obstructionism and overt racism from his Republican opposition. Social issues, DADT, same sex marriage, the opening of relations with Iran, there are many many policies and achievements that have transpired under this historic presidency, achievements that will not be easily undone even if the GOP manages to ever win back the office. And compared to what was in place before he got in...
But on many foreign policy issues, particularly the use of unmanned drones to carry out summary executions in middle east countries he does have blood on his hands.
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2015/02/02/almost-2500-killed-covert-us-drone-strikes-obama-inauguration/
Sorry, I don't know much about thebureauinvestigates.com so I apologize in advance if someone jumps in and denounces it as a right wing front (cursory investigation on wikipedia seems to validate it), but it is an undeniable fact that the USA under Obama has killed thousands, many innocent of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I would suggest this is one of the most under-reported stories of the Obama presidency, not even worth much of a mention in the MSM, the unrelenting bomb strikes in countries that have vigorously protested these actions. Actions which I'm sure will continue or intensify under the next presidency, the new way America wages war in the world, totally illegal and unsanctioned, killing by proxy with the push of a button.
If you think I am exaggerating, just consider for one minute the reaction if a foreign power were to launch a drone strike against a target in the USA. Even if that target were someone that foreign power considered a terrorist whom it believed was formulating plots against them from the safety of the US borders. I think such an action would be considered justification for all out war against that country. Yet this is something that is tolerated and ignored in this society.
Noam Chomsky has written that, by the standards set at the Nuremberg trials, every president since then has been guilty of war crimes. Whether you agree with that statement or not, the fact is that the USA conducts itself on the global stage with impunity and disregard for the suffering and loss of lives that its policies cause.
Wouldn't it a nice change to see a government that tries to wage peace instead of war? That will not have its practices and policies viewed as "war crimes" by future generations? But who would get rich off of that?
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)...at his suggestion that Bernie would fix corporate America and Wall Street.
Stop smoking the doobie, Michael....
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The forth is currently voting and the likely fifth is CA, very large and looming primary wise. As a Bernie supporter I encourage you to make many more of that sort of wise crack, especially on CA specific discussion boards. Thanks.
Chicago1980
(1,968 posts)There are a number of states who have legal medical pot.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Voting in hope of a smaller disaster is still voting for disaster.
The current leadership Democratic Party is coming very close to finding out just how badly selling their souls to moneyed interests is gong to cost them in the following elections with the next generation of voters.
The white hairs of both parties membership who vote straight ticket are a dying breed in more ways than one.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Seems like yesterday I thought I knew everything. But I was never arrogant enough to so denigrate people with actual life experience.
When an election means more to you than getting free shit you will understand. Sometimes elections mean things like basic human rights. And if you think Hillary and Trump are the same in this regard, you are full of shit. When you have your first colonoscopy, please think of this post.
FlaGranny
(8,361 posts)did you ever get the "free stuff" idea? Little in life is free. We're talking social services here and they are paid for with taxes. In this case that would be a redistribution of tax money, a lot less to the military, and fixing tax laws to keep people who can afford tax lawyers from avoiding paying anything (or very little). In the end everyone pays and nothing is free. We're the only "first world" country that can't get our act together and do it.
P.S. I've had white hair for some time now.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)My entire post was aimed at the grey hair comment which is unseemly and something I had not seen at DU.
I actually support higher taxes on the rich and the middle class, and expanded social safety system such as found in Europe, Improved education and strengthening of labor rights.
Unfortunately I believe that if we run on that platform today we will lose. Too many Bernie supporters become enraged when they hear that and start attacking the holders of that opinion.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)I fell for Clinton bullshit twice, and was thrown under the bus by them.
YIf you think Hillary gives a flip about anything but staying on the 1% gravy train, think again.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Last edited Thu May 12, 2016, 01:44 PM - Edit history (1)
But there is so much more at stake than an economic recalibration I would love to see. If we lose the presidency then what you are seeing in North Carolina moves to a national scale. We will have a President doing what Govenor McCrory is doing now with the full power of the Federal Government behind him.
I cannot fathom that so many supposed Democrats are willing to throw so many of our fellow citizens under the bus if their candidate does not win.
But most of Bernies supports are white, live and die for his economic positions and while I do not think them biased, they do not prioritize the issues facing minority or marginalized groups as serious.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)But since most Bernie rallies tend to have similar demographics as Trump rallies I guess it is not all surprising. History tells us that the progressive movement has not always marched in step with the civil rights movement.
I cannot even fathom from whence you pulled those indefensible, disingenuous assertions!
(I sure am thankful for my IL.)
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)I that was a little over the top. Thanks for making me re-read it. I have edited it to better reflect what I was getting at. I do not except you will agree, but hopefully now it is not so rude.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)Anybody who is promoting not voting is neither a Democrat, nor a liberal nor a progressive.
Given a choice to save 100 puppies, 75 puppies or let them all be euthanized, I will take 75 live animals over none.
The parallel in this election is human lives. Not voting is giving Trump permission to let people die. It's that simple.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)YOU nominated her with the help from the thumb-scaling DNC. If she loses, that's on YOU, not Bernie supporters who have been warning you for months that she's toxic.
Turn that blame mirror back on yourself.
BTW, I think Hillary will cause a lot of people to die, too. She'll have us in so many wars your head will spin. Or is it that only American lives matter?
farleftlib
(2,125 posts)but particularly with the Clinton body count. Even Trump isn't pushing regime change in
all the oil-rich countries. Hillary's foreign policy will be very hawkish as we have seen. She
will not rest until the entire Middle East is blown to smithereens. And you can't expect no
push back when you've been sabre rattling all this time.
Chicago1980
(1,968 posts)but she and Bernie voted the same about 93% of the time when they were in the senate together.
She was the 7th most liberal of the democratic senators during her tenure.
She may not live up to your ideals and definition of a progressive or liberal, but you don't have carte blanche on the definitions of those words.
She'll cause a lot of people to die? What the hell kind of statement is that. Take an enema for the hyperbole please.
elljay
(1,178 posts)Your talking point stats are meaningless. Just because they mostly voted the same on the very limited set of bills that reached the floor of the fairly conservative Senate doesn't reflect their real politics. Just because the Republican and Democratic Parties veered so far to the right that Hillary is the 11th most liberal doesn't make her a true liberal. Hillary has basically the same politics as the Nixon, Javits, Weicker wing of the 60s Republican Party. Bernie is a progressive. For the life of me, I don't get why Hillary supporters are so unwilling to admit that they support a conservative Democrat. Own what you believe in, don't try to convince the rest of us that ted is really blue.
Chicago1980
(1,968 posts)elljay
(1,178 posts)And oh so easy to abuse.
Chicago1980
(1,968 posts)Last edited Thu May 12, 2016, 02:53 PM - Edit history (1)
so my numbers work better for me when it comes to my statement.
elljay
(1,178 posts)When you are making a comparison, it is important to consider to whom you are comparing. Not all Democrats are liberal, and this was especially true when Clinton was in the Senate. The number you quote compared her to conservative Democratic senators Zell Miller, Ben Nelson, John Breaux, Robert Byrd, Max Cleland, Kent Conrad, Byron Dorgan, Edward Bayh, Blanche Lincoln, Joe Lieberman, Mary Landrieu and Max Baucus in the 107th Senate. The Senate was split 50-50 at the beginning of the 107th, so when you consider the conservative Dems as well as the Republicans, Hillary's being the "11th most liberal" is every bit as compelling as Kennedy being the 5th most liberal justice. It doesn't at all make her a liberal on the spectrum of conservative to liberal, just more liberal than a conservative Senate. Why can't you accept that you support a moderate/conservative candidate instead of trying to make her into something that she factually is not?
ybbor
(1,555 posts)Come on, if you say enough it eventually becomes reality.
She's a progressive, she's a progressive...
Sorry, didn't work. She a pro-Wall Street, hawk, right-of-center moderate. She has admitted to being a moderate, not progressive.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)and there are many other liberals and progressives and Hillary is more progressive than many of them.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I'm an adult and can make up my own mind.
I laugh when people post these things as though its going to change anyone's mind. LOL.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)I think his Fahrenheit 911 movie was all sorts of kid gloves though.
If he wants to vote for her, go right on ahead - doesn't change my convictions at all.
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)Your vote means nothing to me. Freaking sell out... It only makes me think less of you.
ybbor
(1,555 posts)It could matter, but as a fellow Michigander, I see the state going for Trump.
More Repubs voted in the primary than Dems, and most independents who voted for Bernie will most likely sit out or vote Trump. The Clintons are not very loved in this state.
Just my opinion, and reading of my friends in a very liberal town.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)I make my decision by polling all my favorite pundits and celebrities and then going with the candidate that the majority chooses.
Deciding on actual policy positions is just too boring and hard!
Sure, I can keep track of all the latest stats from my favorite sports teams. But this democracy stuff? No way!
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)aikoaiko
(34,183 posts)apnu
(8,758 posts)For everybody else, not so much.
G_j
(40,367 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)TomCADem
(17,390 posts)Most votes for Romney were votes against President Obama in 2012.
Put another, if Bernie were the nominee, aren't votes for Trump votes against Bernie?
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)farleftlib
(2,125 posts)If it makes him feel better to support HRC then I'm happy for him, I just happen to disagree.
Love ya, Mike!
McKim
(2,412 posts)I will stay in the Sanders camp until the very end. I have a responsibility to my brother in law who died in Vietnam for a lie. For his sake and in his name I have been active in the anti war movement for the past 14 years. Hillary will start more wars, she voted for the Iraq War and it was on her watch and her idea to destabilize Syria and Libya. I know the horrors of war and I just can't give the reigns to our country. Whatever may happen, no blood on my hands.
shenmue
(38,506 posts)Jeb Bartlet
(141 posts)I prefer his positions on nearly every issue, but on Nov 2nd I will pull the lever for whichever Democrat is on the ballot for the simple reason that any Democrat is better than any Republican hands down.
I find it absurd that people will call themselves Democrats and Bernie supporters and then will then say they are going to vote against Clinton if she is the nominee. It boggles the mind that Bernie supporting Democrats would actually be ignoring the very message that Bernie has been trumpeting for years, namely that we need more Democrats in office if we are to ever get any of these ideas through congress. I've never once heard Bernie say if he doesn't get his way he's quitting or voting for the opposition. Bernie has been a staunch supporter of progressive ideals for decades and bailing on the Democratic party because the right wing has you riled up over some fucking emails is inane.
This is the Democratic Underground... supposedly the home of Democrats and progressives. Dems don't take their ball and go home, they suck it up and vote for their party because to do otherwise is to aid the Republicans in destroying everything we hold dear.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)maddiemom
(5,106 posts)apnu
(8,758 posts)November 2nd is a Wednesday. Better early than late, right?
Gary 50
(382 posts)vote for Hillary and not one of them mentioned her fucking emails. Yeah, that would be insane if it were the case but her email "scandal" isn't among the ten thousand reasons so many people can't imagine pulling the lever for someone they believe to be so utterly dishonest.
Flatpicker
(894 posts)Completely agree with that.
She's a standstill Presidency. At least it would not be a backslide in most ways.
RATM435
(392 posts)Hulk
(6,699 posts)I would support damned near anybody...even a republican, before I would let the egomaniac fook this country up once and for all.
Sweet Jesus, I'd back ANY democrat, and nearly ALL the 17 clowns that began the repug circus before I would ever let drumpf get in the White House. That would set this country back to the stone age.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)tomm2thumbs
(13,297 posts)if they'll eat the dead, rotting flesh off your infected arm and save your life
bwahahahahaha -- actually, they do use maggots to do this, so it's all how you look at it
and Trump is the dead, rotting flesh of this country's political system
Science talk:
http://www.livescience.com/17554-maggots-clean-wounds-faster-surgeons.html
* and I am not saying anyone is a maggot
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I will vote for Bernie in November without hesitation if he is the Democratic candidate. That is not a "ringing endorsement" of Sanders.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Akicita
(1,196 posts)stay home. I'm waiting to hear what Susan Sarandon does. I'll do whatever she does.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)Bernie as secretary of the Treasury.
Right in Wall Street's grill and up their ass with a probe, and utterly un buyable.
Yeah, I'm voting for Bernie in the primaries,I hope he gets the nomination because I think he can take out der Trumpenfurher but as long as he has some position under Clinton We are going to be orders of magnitude better than with Trump.
Hillary's instincts are centrist, some of her positions are progressive and she has a ferocious will to power the equal of no one since Richard Nixon (don't freak out at the comparison, because Tricky Dick came from utter humiliation to winning it all in a brilliant and ruthless comeback) and the winner is very often the one who wants it the most and is willing to eat the most shit, kiss the most ass and work the hardest, nature of the game.
Three or four SCOTUS seats; that means more for the issues that matter to us, the POC, the GLBT, those of us concerned with income inequality as well as not fencing up the planet beyond habitability, because SCOTUS is going to decide issues that relate to all of those and more.
Akicita
(1,196 posts)marmar
(77,088 posts)I'll vote for her, but without anything resembling enthusiasm. It's all about keeping the psychos away from the WH and a potential Supreme Court nomination.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)that will go to Trump, regardless of my vote. Plus, I cannot write in Bernie, if Hi11ary succeeds in stealing winning the nomination.
I don't understand how anyone supports either of these "presumptive nominees." I just cannot see either of them as POTUS. Blech...
penndragon69
(788 posts)Then i will leave the polling station and VOMIT in shame !
Joob
(1,065 posts)videohead5
(2,181 posts)The supreme court from going far to the right for like 40 or 50 years.in four years even if you get the progressive you want that supreme court will still be there.
democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)Like him, I'm with Bernie to the end (donated again last week), but I am committed to supporting whoever the nominee is. But like Moore says, Hillary will do some good if she is president. For starters, by putting at least a center-left moderate in Scalia's seat.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,135 posts)Those who disagree with you - and berate you - here are likely voting for Trump.
NNadir
(33,539 posts)The number of Iraqis who died as a result of his efforts in 2000 vastly outstrips the number of dead at Columbine, but he made a movie about the latter case, not the former.
I couldn't care less what he does. He should stick to eating donuts.
132nd Last Angry Man
(34 posts)What sane person wouldn't? The alternative is President Clockwork Orange!
riversedge
(70,275 posts)annavictorious
(934 posts)when Nobel Peace Prize laureate / environmental activist Al Gore (characterized by purists as the corporatist, establishment, third way, lesser of two evils candidate) lost because of "progressive" support for Ralph Nader.
Moore's endorsement of the egotistical purist Nader over evil liar Al Gore helped to elect GW Bush. I guess Moore doesn't want to be responsible for President Trump as well.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)I won't make that choice.
#HillNo
Feathery Scout
(218 posts)I'm a Hillary supporter, but mainly I believe in carrying on Obama's path forward for our nation....
And I'm mortified at the thought of Trump purposely destroying all of our success.
So, even a reluctant....unexcited.....nudge towards Democratic unity is huge in my eyes.
And I give a big thank you to Mr. Moore.
I would have gladly voted for Senator Sanders had he won the nomination.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)yourselves without relying on others to tell you what you think, or what TO think? Who gives a FUCK about Michael Moore's endorsement but you and Hillary? His endorsement doesn't make me less of a person for supporting Bernie Sanders. Nor does it make me stupid for supporting Bernie Sanders. Should it actually affect the principles I live by?
I find it curious and amusing at the same time; this living for the next famous person to endorse Hillary Clinton. It's like positive reinforcement or something. Endorsements reinforce your belief that it's Hillary's turn in such a way that makes me think you question it in the first place. On one hand, Hillary supporters crow about her endorsements from the rooftops. On the other, they wear Bernie's lack of them like a badge of honor.
I don't know about most other Bernie Sanders supporters, but I think for myself and endorsements could neither reinforce the righteousness or wrongness of my decision to support him.
In short? I don't give a FUCK who Michael Moore endorses. Or anyone else. Or some newspaper I've never read. Or some pop musician whose music I'd not listen to on my worst day. Or politicians. There are maybe four or five politicians I'd even piss on if I saw them rolling on the ground on fire.
Now, if that's me throwing Michael Moore under the bus... I hope he didn't fuck it up somehow, and warp the driveshaft or something. This bus has been running fine up until now. Is that his rich hundred-million dollar ass I see in the rear view mirror? Maybe it is.
Response to brooklynite (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)"...she will do some good." Lloyd Blankfein is ecstatic!
Hairy Harry Potlover
(42 posts)Not funny. What's even less funny is a Trump Administration.
c588415
(285 posts)via absentee ballot yesterday.