Bernie Sanders : " We're going to be in this until the last ballot is cast " (5-6-16)

[Bernie93]

[link:

|

[LWolf]

1. That's the democratic way to do it. nt

[Buzz cook]

11. Is it?

I thought it was count the votes and when one person got the majority you called them the victor. Any votes after that are just a historical artifact.

[LWolf]

12. You

can't count the votes when they haven't all been cast. That's pretty simple.

Also, for better or for worse, our current system simply isn't that democratic. It's not the votes that count, pun intended. Those votes are part of the process, but not the whole.

Letting the process play out...letting millions of voters have a voice, allowing them to actually cast their votes, is the first step.

[Buzz cook]

16. Sure you can count some of the votes before

all are cast. At least in the primaries we count the votes and delegates as each state goes through the process.

That seems to be pretty obvious.

One person will get the majority of delegates. Once that number is reached that person will be the winner.

[LWolf]

17. Again.

Not everyone has voted, and not all votes have been cast. That is more than "pretty" obvious.

Declaring winners before all eligible voters have had their turn is, again, decidedly NOT democratic.

You can't rationalize marginalizing millions of voters. At least, you can't do so with any honesty, any credibility, or any integrity.

[Buzz cook]

19. Bull

Democracy is about expressing the will of the majority. You're just playing the dead ender card.

[LWolf]

20. Democracy is about giving everyone a voice.

The "dead ender" card? What a ludicrous piece of stupidity.

[Buzz cook]

21. Now you're changing the subject from

How we pick our leaders in a democracy to individual civil liberties.

Let me ask you a question in the Socratic style; In a democracy the person that gets 50% + 1 of the vote wins, is that a true statement?

[LWolf]

24. A democracy allows everyone

a voice before counting the total.

And, in this particular process, the votes that are counted to get that 50% + 1 are those cast at the convention. We do not directly elect our nominees.

And, of course, Hillary Rodham Clinton does not have that magic number of delegates. Should Sanders do well, which I'm certainly working for, it's quite likely that she won't have that number going into the convention. Which is, of course, where the process will play out.

[Buzz cook]

26. Please you're quibbling

We know how many delegates there are, how many each candidate has, and how many there are remaining. Those delegates have been counted and they count.

The convention just makes it official and it renders votes for the loser into political artifacts.

You've changed your argument again. From individual rights to didactic rule following this time.

[LWolf]

29. Not at all.

Allowing citizens to vote is a keystone of democracy; it's not "quibbling."

Having a process to determine winners is as well; it prevents mid-election changes.

I'm sorry you don't understand democracy.

I haven't changed my mind at all. It amazes me that you've been digging around inside my skull to try to track magical changes that have never occurred.

[Buzz cook]

32. Now you're just lying

Where did I or anyone (except a conservative) say there was no right to vote. That's just a straw man argument.

We do have a process it prevents mid election changes because once cast a vote stays the same until the second ballot. And as I'm getting tired of pointing out those votes have been counted and recorded from Iowa to Guam.

Yeh yeh the person you're arguing with "just doesn't understand" is too weak minded or set in their ways to get the "obvious" point.
Which logical fallacy would that be pray tell?

I get your point I just don't agree with it.

If I've been digging inside your skull it's because the contents have been strewn across this thread.

Words have usages and as I've pointed out the way you've used your words has changed. You don't have a valid argument for several reasons. One of which is subject changing, and now you've added strawman and ad hominem.

But I'll cut you some slack on the latter because I tend to be a bit rude as well.

[LWolf]

34. When you want a winner called

before the vote is finished, when millions have not yet had their turn, you are, in effect, deciding that their votes don't count, don't matter, and shouldn't be bothered with.

That's what I'm saying. YOU saying that you aren't impeding our right to be heard is lying. So is your saying that I said "there was no right to vote," because I certainly didn't say that.

But carry on with your marginalization and disenfranchisement of millions of voters in the name of democracy and "truth."

[Buzz cook]

38. Well

That's a hissy fit that carries no information.

Everyone has a right to vote and each of those votes deserve to be counted. That is the sine qua non of democracy.

But in a democracy the majority rules. That is also something, that without which would not be a democracy.

These two statements do not compete with each other, each is true independent of the other.

You are arguing that the former is superior and the latter inferior. You are also arguing majority rule is invalid in and of itself, being dependent on all votes being counted.

My argument is that the majority rules as soon as the will of the majority is clearly known. While it formally goes into effect after the accepted forms are met, it doesn't interfere with the fact that the will of the majority is known.

Lets go back a bit. You have a valid argument, or at least parts of one, if we were talking about the general election.

But we aren't talking about the general, we're talking about a months long process organized by the democratic party in such a way that we can usually determine the winner before the convention. To argue that we can't is arguing with reality. To argue that we shouldn't means caging the human intellect.

Have a nice dasy.

[LWolf]

39. I can only come to this conclusion:

You either:

1. Speak a completely different language than I, or

2. have a very poor vocabulary, and poor reading comprehension and thinking skills,

3. or are simply disingenuous and dishonest.

Because you certainly haven't responded with any accuracy to anything I've said.

[Buzz cook]

40. Bye

Sorry I wasted my time.

[LWolf]

41. So long.

[hellofromreddit]

22. The vote counting happens at the end.

Quitting now is quitting before we start.

[Buzz cook]

23. The votes have been counted

In all the states and territories from Iowa to Guam. Have you not been watching the news?

[hellofromreddit]

36. Stop being an asshole.

Have you not been watching the news?

It doesn't help you prove your point at all.

[Buzz cook]

37. No

I'm not making a point I'm arguing against a point. Your point if you want to make one.

[AzDar]

2. Bernie keeps his word.

[dchill]

3. There's nothing that Bernie could do to weaken Hillary...

She's already done that to herself. Not to mention that primary season isn't over until after the convention.

[moriah]

4. Perfectly fair, reasonable, and rational.

I'm glad that Bernie is not going to drop out before every state has voted.

I'm glad he didn't suggest going further if the nomination was impossible for him by then even with proportional delegation of SDs or just splitting them in half.

But until then, carry on! Every voice deserves to be heard.

[griffi94]

5. So send more money

[hack89]

6. " It is the only way I can end this in the black" nt

[bigwillq]

7. K and R (nt)

[Demsrule86]

8. That sounds like he's out after California

the last primary...maybe he is coming to his senses.

[saucy007]

9. It is very important for him to stay till the end

It is the only way to draw attention to how rigged and corrupt this primary has been!

[gopiscrap]

14. Welcome to DU

[trueblue2007]

10. GET OUT BERNIE, YOU CAN'T WIN

[JoePhilly]

13. So probably not until the convention.

[anotherproletariat]

25. If he will at least get out by mid-June, that will give Hillary a little while to work on getting

her message out without attacks from both sides.

[gopiscrap]

15. Welcome to DU

[silvershadow]

18. As it should be, every single election. nt

[rock]

27. I insist that Bernie stay in til the end

I want to see how much he can fleece his supporters for.

[Amaril]

28. Exactly as it should be (n/t)

[Uncle Joe]

30. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Bernie93.

[Demsrule86]

31. If he wants to have a shred of dignity

and any hope of salvaging his senate career, he better quit after California.

[dana_b]

33. yep! Thankfully!

Then we ALL get a chance to vote for who we want to vote for. Thank you, Bernie!

[MineralMan]

35. And then, you're going to be out of it.

Still, you can return to the Senate, and keep contributing. That's good. You've done well there. Please, though, do ask your supporters to vote for Hillary. Much depends on a Democrat winning in November. Thanks...

[bvf]

42. That's the way. n/t