Does the differences mean anything to those who are voting for Hillary?

[bkkyosemite]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1313007498715543&set=gm.1168186083244143&type=3&theater

don't know how to post it here if someone else does please do.

[Live and Learn]

1. K&R And here you go:

[Thirties Child]

2. The best one is so obvious.

I wonder what they tell themselves, besides she's a Democrat?

[Live and Learn]

3. She's a woman and a Clinton? All I can think of.

None being good reasons to vote for her of course.

[dsc]

11. does honesty matter to the OP, apparently not

she is against offshore drilling and has been for her entire political career. She is against fracking. She is against the XL pipeline. These aren't state secrets. These issues have been discussed widely. It is nearly impossible that you and the OP are merely ignorant of her stances.

[Live and Learn]

14. ROFL. Wait and see. nt

[Armstead]

18. Against when campaigning

[deathrind]

4. No,

HRC's position on actual issues clearly has long since been cast aside (presuming her position was ever a factor to begin with).

It is all about the history making aspect of the 1st woman president.

1st woman president > Environment

1st woman president > Education

1st woman president > Healthcare

1st woman president > Income Equality

1st woman president > Foreign Policy

The list goes on and on.

[Lizzie Poppet]

5. Precisely.

For some, the rationale is, basically, "because vagina."

I happen to possess one of those, too...and it's one of the few things I have in common with Hillary Clinton.

[Hortensis]

6. BKKYosemite, IMO you should be ashamed to post

that piece of propaganda after so many months when you should have been learning enough to realize it was beneath you. I vote you 3 of my private Trumpies for empty bag of knowledge in an adult.

November's a long way off. You could start informing yourself about #1. I'll give you a clue. Hillary did not vote for the Iraq war.

As for #2, when you learn more about what Hillary did and didn't vote for, be sure to take note of WHY even posting the simple truth can be inexcusably stupid and dishonorable when it's presented as if it's bad.

Etc.

[bkkyosemite]

7. IMO you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking you can scold me like I'm a child. I know what

Clinton's issues are. I am voting for Bernie. On my way to my mail box now!

HORTENSIS

[Hortensis]

8. You have my opinion. Our little relative in

middle school knows more about that the issues mentioned on that shabby piece than those who keep posting it. Of course. This is an election year, so the election is studied. They'd be failed if they didn't learn the material well enough to pass the quizzes and tests. And this is the Deep South -- not exactly Democrat country.

[bkkyosemite]

9. And you just keep giving it. I stand that she does not support the issues that matter to me.

I really don't care what you think about what I think. Have a nice day! (Gawd I went from a child to Jr. high now LOL and yesterday was my 70th....)...

[H2O Man]

12. Well done!

Minister Malcolm X used to say that he could gauge how effective his statements were, by the unsettled responses of his opposition.

[Xyzse]

15. I don't see how that post in regards to that graphic is wrong in terms of voting records

It is an over-simplification but in terms of voting records and verifiable information:

1 - Iraq War - Hillary did vote for it. In fairness, the vast majority of Politicians at the time voted for the authorization of action as a last resort. It is the same position as Kerry had, and as such, I could care less about it. It is one of the things Obama attacked her on in 2008, and one that I thought was unfair. Just because I think that, does not excuse the fact that she was wrong in her judgment, and her positions tend to be in line with whatever is popular at the moment.
2 - Patriot Act - Voted for it multiple times, as well as the re-authorization of it. I can understand why she did it, but it does not change the fact that she supported it. She did vote against the Wire Tap provision of it.
3 - Glass-Steagall - She also went for repeal, under her husband's administration. (Now thinking about reinstatement)
4 - DOMA(Defense of Marriage Act) - Was with this and is only a recent convert to LGBT rights. (Now for LGBT rights, since it is now popular). She has supported DOMA and defended it till 2007.
5 - Keystone XL - Yes, she negotiated to approve on this one. (She is against it now)
6 - Offshore Drilling - Again, voted for it. (Against this now, kinda sorta...)
7 - Fracking - Ditto #6 (It is currently unpopular, so no go any more)
8 - Fossil Fuel Extraction - Ditto #6,7 (Ditto #6,7)
9 - Health Care - She even said Universal Health Care will never happen in America. (Still for the improvement of the ACA)
10 - Campaign Money - Paid for in Super PACS (Indisputable)
11 - I could care less about paid speeches.

I mean, just a quick check on pretty much shows how she voted on all of those:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm
Then from that, one can research each issue even more to cross examine and verify. In fact, I have to verify and cross reference a lot of that, since it seems to be incomplete, particularly when it comes to corporations and so forth. I need to find more in regards to that.

I understand that her stances has evolved throughout the years. One could consider it based on new experience, while others can basically say that she just follows the popular opinion.

Yes, it is propaganda, and yes it is overly simplified. However, it shows how Sanders has been right on the issues from day 1, while Clinton has had to "change" and "learn" from her mistakes/(not-mistake but takes responsibility). The problem here to me, is that she seems to take the wrong position on the issues, since it seems that she has a predilection to take the popular or the majority position. In that sense, the popular/majority position tends to be the reactionary position, which in many instances is wrong. When faced with a new issue, rather than stick to core values, she would compromise herself and go with what would make her look good at that moment.

This is why, when a poster once asked, what does Clinton have to do to earn my vote. Honestly, if she's the Democratic candidate, I will vote for her. How she gets my support, I suggest she start with "consistency" and figure out her actual bottom line. A set of principles that would guide her in her decision making process(not just what she thinks would get her the most plaudits). The fact that I find her camp saying that she has been "forced to the left" shows that she needs to work on her integrity, and that is just plain sad. It is also why many feel that she does not support the issues that matter to them, since they think she will abandon it at the drop of a hat.

[Hortensis]

16. Xyxse, there is truth and there is truth.

Truth can even be used as deception, misdirection, and just plain malicious dishonesty. That said, I was irritated yesterday and took the usual, normally tedious anti-Hillary slurs worse than usual. It's not as if there's anything new about them, or about the ignorance that routinely accompanies them.

But, geez. That was a big part of it -- just the usual over and over. After all these months of discussion, what kind of person can still "think" that supporting only Glass-Stegal is good and supporting Dodd-Frank is bad -- or vice versa?

These laws aren't stupid footballs to be run up and down the field in some kind of team sport. They're merely different approaches to take to a problem the vast majority of Americans agree we need to fix. This year that includes record numbers of Republicans. (Wow!!!)

We have great opportunities this year to continue on the road to much bigger change than we accomplished with President Obama's promising beginning. The prize is change that advances the wellbeing of nearly 300,000,000 Americans and of our democratic systems. The prize is not finally succeeding in trampling Hillary Clinton into the mud. Not for most of us anyway.

[Xyzse]

17. Understood.

I can respect that opinion.

I may have to disagree with you on the torch-bearer, but yes, I can understand that.

I still think it is worth the fight for the primaries, as I do consider the flaws in both candidates, and I tend to think Sanders has the better chance. I can also understand that people will see that differently, and their point is no valid than mine.

Problem is, I don't really see much change provided by Obama, and yes, that is another difference in opinion. Obama, has done well in balance, but in many ways, I fear he has brought the country further to the Right through his leadership. Yes, there are a few steps on the beginning of progress, by virtue of his priorities, which all three candidates share. I tend to question however the willingness to fight for a better deal, and if what they are asking for is enough. I want to negotiate from the best possible outcome, before giving in to ridiculous demands, rather than providing them with what they think would be a reasonable mid-point, which would only get whittled down to ineffectiveness at best, damaging at worst.

I do try to be fair. I have not gone after Clinton for her emails(even Sanders defended her), her transcripts(which is pointless to show or ask for), as well as the Iraq War vote(which was at a rare point in history where everyone wanted to be supportive, was given doctored/incomplete/misleading information). I have gone after her and her campaign for other things, while trying to disregard the actions of supporters as supporters tend to react in the worst sort of ways in both camps.

Unfortunately, this will continue for a while longer, and I don't really mind it, and think that every single person that wants to vote should be able to. It really has been nice to vote my conscience for once, rather than picking the pragmatic choice of who I think would do the least amount of damage to the country. So, I understand your frustration, and I understand theirs, I tend to think some just need the acknowledgement that those are indeed problems and issues, but it still has to be worked through.

Many also think that the reason Hillary Clinton gets dragged in to the mud, is due to her actions, her misstatements and quick changes in positions. The last part is what causes her the most problems. She has to be consistent on her core values and arguably she is, she will have to do a better job at explaining that. So, in essence that is my suggestion, she has to try to be a bit more consistent.

Most tend to look at the votes as just good or bad, there are so many things involved in one single bill, that you can't really say if it was the correct decision in most instances. That is understandable. Clinton would look so much better at this time, if she was not running against a politician like Sanders. The difference is stark. Bernie tends to follow a set of moral values that influences the way he votes, and takes a stand on it, Clinton is more willing to bend and compromise. Those are two very different approaches and neither of which is good or bad, and there is room and need for both. At this time, the idea of someone who would not compromise their values is a very attractive proposition to many, so I can see how people could get really fired up. They are hungry for big changes rather than the one step forward two steps back that people feel have been happening. Again, the approach is different. I consider the Sanders approach as the more appropriate course of action for the Executive branch at this time, while Clinton's method to me seems more fitting for the legislative branch.

[Hortensis]

20. Nice, thoughtful post and we agree on most things.

I think seeing Obama, Hillary, and Democrats in general as "right" must result from a far-left viewpoint -- almost everyone is to the right of most on the far left after all. Critically important, though, our left is still left.

Otoh, the conservative leadership, establishment, and dark-money billionaires have moved to the hard-right to extreme-right over the past 40 years. It seems that most Bernie supporters are so focused on those liberals directly to their right as "the enemy" to be defeated that they fail to recognize the enormous threat from the right with the shock and fear it truly deserves.

My other main disagreement is mistaking Bernie's ideology for his morals. It is Bernie's ideology that gives him those rock-solid stands on issues.

Morals-wise, he is definitely not so special, certainly nothing to be held above the typical Democratic politician. There is a fair amount of documentation of various moral failures available, but of course since he was obscure for so long and generated less interest from the right his record has not been examined intensively -- and lied about -- for decades the way Hillary's has.

Not to put him down. I wouldn't be talking about his "morality" at all if Hillary's weren't so constantly denied. I think he's pretty run-of-the-mill as people and politicians go, being good when it works and being ruthless and immoral enough to meet a situation effectively when it's felt to be really needed. (Usually while lying to ourselves about how being bad isn't so bad, even good, of course).

You are right that Hillary does things that facilitate enemy attacks -- like financing a home through a friend, another politician, instead of just paying a bit more to get a mortgage through a bank. Yes, it's perfectly ethical and legal, my husband and I hold the paper for some relatives ourselves and once considered having a friend carry the loan on our own home purchase, but her voters don't appreciate having to try to counter the inevitable insistence that there must be corruption involved.

But I've examined Hillary's real record, not the right-wing version, a lot more than most Bernie supporters have. It seems very possible, even likely to me, that of the two of them, if anything, Hillary is the more consistently moral person. How can that be???!!! Well, it just can. Her focus on the welfare of individuals, just just mainly ideology-driven policy, especially the welfare of women and children, certainly ups her average.

[Xyzse]

21. I'll leave it at that.

I can respect a difference of opinion.

[bigwillq]

10. Yes. I would rather have someone like Bernie. (nt)

[Demsrule86]

13. Well you can't

He has lost and will not be the nominee.

[Onlooker]

19. You could make a chart for Bernie too

Some of things things are things that most of us don't like about Hillary, though a few are more complicated (energy indepenence and health care).

A similar chart could be made for Bernie listing his support for gun manufacturers, for the stealth bomber, vote for the anti-immigrant vigilante Minutemen, admiration for Castro, dismissing southern black votes, etc.