If her name was still Hillary Rodham would she be this close to the presidency?

[DFab420]

Hate me for the question if you want, but I am looking to see what exactly she did to achieve elected office and all I can find in her history is moving to NY after being the First Lady.


Besides the fact that she happened to be married to the man who was Governor then President what exactly is it about Hillary Rodham's record makes you believe she would be a good commander in chief?

Is it her failed healthcare overhaul in the 90's?

Is it Kate Mullany National Historic Site Act?

The bill to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 2951 New York Highway 43 in Averill Park, New York, as the "Major George Quamo Post Office Building"?

Or was it her hard hitting and incrediblly hard fought battle to pass a bill to designate a portion of United States Route 20A, located in Orchard Park, New York, as the "Timothy J. Russert Highway"?

Was it her vote to give the President Bush war powers so he would give NY money to rebuild?

[artislife]

1. I love this OP.

[Agschmid]

29. ...

Not shocked.

[NCTraveler]

55. Direct quote of yours. Your love of this op is of no surprise.

"I hate Hillary. I want all those names to cry big tears when she isn't elected president in November. Can't wait." artislife

[seabeyond]

100. Wow, nasty. And a supposed young woman advocating Repugs getting in to change up spr crt

kicking abortion rights to the curb? I find that ... unbelievable.

[aikoaiko]

111. Nothing I haven't seen Hillary supporters say about Bernie and the primary.

[NCTraveler]

116. Agree. And you would have a point if that is what the reply was to. It wasn't.

I never argued your point.

[aikoaiko]

120. My point was to provide context.

[Hortensis]

140. Some people select such inappropriate names.

You see pretty names that suggest nice things, then open to this kind of malice.

[Agschmid]

188. Not shocked.

[senz]

211. Sorry to see they attacked you, artislife.

Obviously they take names and carry grudges. You're probably an easy target because you don't fight back on their level which may bring out the bully in some.

Please protect yourself from an overload of hostility.

[artislife]

246. That one is a frustrated hillbully.

I smile when I think of their small little lives.

[Beacool]

2. If Hillary had not followed Bill to Arkansas she would have been in public office

years before she ran in 2000. Hillary has a list of "firsts" that is quite long. There have been over 40 women who were married to presidents, so far, none have accomplished the level of electoral achievements that Hillary has done.

To imply that she would be a nobody without Bill is outrageous and offensive. I would counter that maybe Bill would have never been president without her counsel and backbone.

[DFab420]

3. What can you point to to back this up. If anything her history and her OWN

personal narrative is that of someone who didn't ever want to be a politician. She isn't a natural one after all. Her own god damn biography says she didn't want to be in politics. So either you're mistaken or she is... She's just a grandmother who cares too much.


You says she has a list of firsts. What firsts are that?

I know shes the first First Lady to ever run for office after her husband was president.

I know shes the first Presidential candidate under active FBI investigation.

I know she's the first First Lady to ever be subpoenaed and finger printed.

[Beacool]

8. Forget it, having a discussion with someone like you is like having a discussion

about the Clintons with a Freeper. Nothing but derision and dismissive nastiness.

[DFab420]

9. That's not true at all. I'm just asking for something more specific then the general

platitudes that "she'll work hard" or "she's gonna be great because she's her"

[JaneyVee]

21. She was 4th in line for presidency as SoS...

And Bernie voted for that.

[DFab420]

28. And I agree with him, about 4 steps away from POTUS is perfect.

No closer.

[JaneyVee]

51. So...

Youre asking about her accomplishments while admitting she would be perfect at SoS.

You just imploded your own argument. Never too late to delete this sexist nonsense.

[DFab420]

119. No, if you would even attempt comprehension what I said was she was perfect being kept at least 3

people removed from being in charge...

[treestar]

147. LOL why is 4 steps OK?

Is that a magic number that happens to be convenient?

[Agschmid]

32. Yup.

[Codeine]

47. It's not "like" having a discussion with a Freeper,

you're actually having a discussion with a Freeper, if not in name then in mentality.

[Sheepshank]

125. Bwahhaa haa hhhhhaaaaaa...true dat

[Beacool]

134. Good point........

[Action_Patrol]

139. You were alerted on by the OP

1-6 LEAVE

[Codeine]

142. He's the delicate sort, I see.

I guess one gets touchy on one's 3rd or 4th time around.

[PJMcK]

63. Agreed and here's an old joke

Not long ago, Bill and Hillary were walking down the street in Little Rock when they passed a man digging a ditch. Hillary said, "Bill, do you see that man? Before I met you, I dated him for a couple of weeks." Bill replied, "Well, since I was the president, I guess it's a good thing you married me, right?" Hillary looked at Bill and said, "Not really. If I'd married him, he would've been president."

[Beacool]

133. I remember a similar joke.

Except that in that story Hillary's former beau was a gas station attendant.

[SharonClark]

105. I can't agree more

[MADem]

141. Even Bill admits that she is the smart one in the family. nt

[Beacool]

159. He has been saying for years that she's smarter than he is.

I think that they're equally smart, but one thing she is that he's not, is disciplined. She has a backbone of steel and an incredible work ethic. Hillary works harder than anyone in her staff. She'll work her heart out for the country.




I hope that she becomes our next president. I can't fathom a country ruled by Trump. The thought is scary.

[MADem]

161. I agree with that--and I think he got most of his best ideas from her.

I also think she's more than a skosh to the left of him (though her detractors will not acknowledge that).

I don't think a Trump Presidency is in the cards for The Donald--unless he's President of his book club, or something. His numbers with women (of all parties) are heading for the toilet, and women do elect Presidents. After his runny-mouth last night, he's lucky if his wife and daughters speak to him.

[PufPuf23]

206. Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar. eom

[MADem]

224. People who haven't been Rhodes Scholars can be smart, too, ya know. nt

[PufPuf23]

225. Hillary Clinton is an extremely smart individual; Bill Clinton has more raw

intelligence and more charisma and people skills than Hillary Clinton.

Both Clintons are extremely intelligent and accomplished.

Hillary Clinton would very likely not had the opportunities, wealth, and as high a profile had she not married Bill Clinton.

That is not to say that Hillary Clinton would not have been an accomplished woman in her own right but is to say that she was unlikely to have become Senator from NY or SOS or had the same career as a corporate lawyer had she not been 1st Lady of Arkansas and the USA.

This is my opinion.

My favorable opinion of the Clintons reversed after Bill Clinton was POTUS and while Hillary Clinton was Senator and SOS.

[treestar]

146. +1

This particular theme is so sexist!

[Beacool]

157. Worthy of Trump, actually.....

[hobbit709]

168. If she hadn't followed Bill to Arkansas she would have been in office as a Republican.

[Beacool]

175. Nonsense!!!

Hillary was already a Democrat at Yale.

[Sparkly]

208. I agree.

I've read that other women who knew her at the time were shocked and disappointed that she went to Arkansas as his wife.

And I agree that she had a lot to do with getting him in office, not the other way around.

[MineralMan]

4. Who can say. There is a reality and a fantasy.

She is who she is. Fantasizing about another situation is a waste of time. We are all the sum of our lives. Hillary is no exception.

Moving on...

[DFab420]

6. I think the reality of the situation is that people are voting for a fantasy.

We are about to elect someone to the office of the President of the United States who has only ever served EIGHT years as an elected official held to the account of voters...

[MineralMan]

7. We have elected others who had even less political office experience.

I'll mention Dwight David Eisenhower as an example.

Clinton also served as Secretary of State. Eisenhower was a General. Until elected President, I don't believe he had held any elected position.

There is no such requirement for President.

[DFab420]

10. Apples and oranges man. He was a wartime General with proven leadership experiance

that had a public record of service and positive leadership decisions.

[MineralMan]

12. You established the terms of the discussion, not me.

I responded. You were the one that stressed elected office.

[DFab420]

15. I stressed elected official because I was discussing her background.

You can choose to be obtuse or not.

[treestar]

149. Military leadership

is not as hard at all. The underlings have to obey or they get court martialed.

[TM99]

160. Yeah, successfully defeating the Nazi's

in Europe and Africa was not hard at all.

Do you people even hear the bullshit that comes out of your mouths?

[treestar]

166. that is a different issue entirely

my point still stands. Military decisions that defeated the Nazis are all very well, but the people you are working with have to do what you say. For the Presidency, the others do not have to go along. I should be at your pretended ignorance.

The reason why "successful" business men like Trump or Perot would not make good Presidents either. Their employees would just do as they said - now, outside the Executive Branch, they would have to deal with separate powers that don't have to just do what they say.

[TM99]

180. Moving the goal posts as usual

I see.

You obviously have no idea what military leadership training is all about.

And if you believe it is all about 'following orders' you simply display of level of ignorance there is no cure for.

[Human101948]

19. You think that Eisenhower didn't develop political skills as Commander in Chief of Allied Forces?

As Allied commander, he was not only a military leader but also the representative of the Combined Chiefs of Staff and their respective governments when such political issues as the handling of the Vichy regime had to be resolved. His emergence as a diplomat thus began in North Africa. Eisenhower's first exercise of Allied command revealed that it held many frustrations, but he treated each problem or setback as a lesson. As time went on, he became more skillful, gradually mastering a job that was really without precedent in the history of warfare.

http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/ike/ike.htm

[MineralMan]

20. The post I replied to was about holding elected office.

I responded to that, and that only.

[DFab420]

30. Exactly, you cherry picked one sentence from my argument and failed to apply

the context in which it was given in an attempt to answer with a non answer.

[MineralMan]

36. As I remember, there were only two sentences in the

first place. You made a major point of her only holding elected office for 8 years.

That was the point of your post. In point of fact, President Obama didn't hold elected office much longer, really. If you insist, I'll go back and list all of the presidents with the same or less experience in elected office.

I discussed your post. As you wrote it. If you want a different discussion, write a different post. That's my suggestion.

[auntpurl]

5. Oh great.

This again.

[BernieforPres2016]

11. I hope the first woman President will be one who gets there on her own merits

Rather than piggybacking her spouse.

I don't even know what Elizabeth Warren's husband does for a living.

[Demsrule86]

13. Oh please

Since Hillary is the nominee you hope she will lose so some mythical woman 100 years from now can win...not me, I support the Democratic nominee.

[JaneyVee]

18. "She is the most qualified candidate in a generation"-NYTimes

Enough with the sexist bullshit.

[DFab420]

22. Is it sexist now to ask for specifics?

[tammywammy]

122. No, it's sexist to assume she got where she is because she

Was "piggybacking her spouse".

Assuming a woman got where she is because of her husband is sexist.

[Yupster]

174. Oh be serious

Of course she got where she is by piggybacking on her husband.

There are incredibly smart, incredibly talented women all around America who are not running for President. They are doctors and lawyers and business owners. So how did Hillary get into government?

Her husband started asking her to do political jobs while Governor of Arkansas. If her husband wasn't Gov, she wouldn't have been asked to do those jobs.

To become Senator, she did something extraordinary. She moved to a state she never lived in to run. There are incredibly talented women in every town who would be an asterisk in the voting if they ran for senate never living in the state. So how did Hillary manage it? Because her name was Clinton because she was married to the President.

Like Hillary or love her, but come on. How can you say she didn't ride her husband's offices to get elected herself? That's just ridiculous.

[mcranor]

81. No she's not. Utter crap. n/t

[JudyM]

76. Yes! That'd be a role model. Instead, the 1st woman President will be known for having been corrupt.

[JaneyVee]

14. We elected someone named Barack Obama...

Whats a name got to do with it?

[DFab420]

24. Someone who served in Congress and Senate and as a community organizer..

Thank you for pointing out my argument.

The name shouldn't matter, the record does.

If her last name wasn't Clinton she would never be in the position she is in.

No first lady of Ak, No First Lady, No Senate Seat, No Sec. of State.

[JaneyVee]

43. How do you know that though?

See, the fact that you are assuming a hypothetical scenario comes across a shallow and sexist. How do you know she wouldnt have been president decades ago? Why are you putting limitations on womens potential?

[SharonClark]

110. She had more potential than Bill did when he ran for governor

[Codeine]

49. AR, not AK. nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

169. Many on DU avoid his name. They use initials PBO instead of BHO.

Because we need to avoid his middle name: Hussein.

Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.
Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein. Hussein.


Will our next president be referred to as PHC? (or PHR)? I didn't think so.

[JoePhilly]

16. Looks like the going out of businesses sale on silly anti-Hillary OPs has started.

[DFab420]

23. That's a good response! You totally had a well thought out and cogent

argument ready to point out the specific decisions and policy choices that the person you want to lead the free world for 8 years will have.

[JoePhilly]

26. Your OP is about a person's name.

She's been a Senator and SecState.

And you're babbling about her name.

There is no reason to take you seriously when the premise of your OP is nether well thought out or cogent.

[Agschmid]

37. Nailed it.

[zappaman]

44. +1

Looks like we are now scraping the bottom of the barrel.
I expect to see Vince Foster's name come up soon.

[Bobbie Jo]

67. Worse than that, actually

The OP is trying to make this one of those "because of your husband" things.

Sexist as all get out, and not very clever at that.

[JoePhilly]

127. They've got a lot of silly outrages to unload.

OP knows it's over.

So he's spring cleaning.

[GusBob]

126. *boom*

[MadBadger]

153. Personally i think a simple Go fuck yourself would suffice

but that would be against the rules

[uponit7771]

113. I'd like one for a dollah but they said that was too much

[treestar]

151. LOL!

A fire sale!

[IdaBriggs]

17. No. And if she had divorced him, her future political career would have been over.

She is not charming, personable or committed to public service. I have no idea why she is running for office other than she wants the power.

I think ideologically she would be an excellent Republican. I do not see her as committed to the public good, but she is totally committed to helping her clients (and herself) get richer.

[artislife]

94. +1

[treestar]

152. She is all those things

It is absurd to say she would be "an excellent Republican." Quit subscribing to the fictional Hillary that has been created.

[IdaBriggs]

163. My perception is based on my observation of her public behavior.

And has solidified from her performance in debates and town halls during this primary season. Your opinion obviously differs but is no more valid than my own (assuming you have no personal relationship other than the one you create in your own mind). I find her body language in particular to be extraordinarily off putting; her inability to project sincerity and warmth reminds me of Bush Junior. Plus the constant lying...yuck!

[treestar]

164. Pure exaggeration and building up the way you want things to be

Republican levels of hatred here. I've never hated a fellow Democrat on such terms.

[IdaBriggs]

171. I currently *despise* her at levels similar to Bush Junior.

I consider her a criminal and war monger. I think she is a liar who will say one thing to your face while stabbing her constituents in the back because that is what the facts support.

I am a Democrat. I like Bernie, but pretty much wouldn't blink about supporting any other Democrat you can name from Biden to Kerry (I supported him in 2004) to Reid to Pelosi to...you get the idea. I have a clipboard petition for my local Democratic Representative to get on the ballot in the August Primary, and my family (including 9-year old twins, who have baby photos of being with me while stuffing envelopes in my county Dem office) walked in the Memorial Parade in her section last year. Oh, and in 2014 I got a ticket on Election Day while running around knocking on doors for GOTV efforts for both Senator Gary Peters (D) and his replacement Brenda Lawrence (D - see continuing relationship) in a drizzly cold rain.

I am a Democrat, and if I as part of the base am flat out telling you that I can't support one candidate, but pretty much will support nearly anyone else in the Party, that is a seriously flawed candidate and has nothing to do with my preference for Sanders.

Now, if you want to "kick me out of the party" because Hillary Sucks, I am not going to join the Republicans because they don't reflect my values. If she is the "leader of the party", I will switch my affiliation to Independent, laugh at the people who don't (the way one does when a previously winning franchise goes down the toilet), and continue to support down ticket liberal and progressive candidates at all levels.

I am not a CLINTON Democrat (even though I voted for and supported Bill in 90s, I still identified as Independent then). I am an OBAMA Democrat - no damn personal drama due to corruption, cronyism, lies and bad judgment.

And the fact we are even having this discussion (when there are lots of other candidates I am willing to support, even though my preference is Bernie) shows what a horrific and divisive force she is within the Democratic Party.

You might think this is a "Bernie or Bust" but I think this is more "I'm not voting for Nixon while we wait for Watergate to gain traction."

[PufPuf23]

205. Some time ago I made a list comparing Hillary Clinton's proposed policies compared with those of

Richard Nixon as POTUS.

The policies were quite similar except Nixon was more Keynesian in economic policy (gas rationing, price controls) and a far better environmental POTUS (NEPA, EPA, CWA, OSHA, NFMA).

That said, Nixon and Hillary Clinton appear similar in character.

[randome]

25. You were wrong about Sanders winning this. Why would we take anything you say seriously?

You clearly still can't accept that Clinton has won and so now you want to sow dissension to...I don't know, punish us for being right that Clinton was going to win this?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[JoePhilly]

31. We're going to see all manner of outrage spilling out

for a while.

[Dawgs]

41. How about answering the question?

And Bernie has nothing to do with the OP.

[randome]

54. Oh, yes, he does. This OP is a deliberate attempt to punish Clinton supporters.

It has no redeeming value. Clinton has won. You may still have a grace period until the Primary is officially called by Skinner but this OP adds no value, serves no purpose, it's just petulance because not enough people voted for Sanders.

It's a false and loaded question. Clinton is the favored nominee so trying to sow doubt about her is just another form of stomping your feet. The only question we should be debating is how to move Clinton further to the left.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[Dawgs]

59. According to you. I think it's very relevant. And yes, it has nothing to do with Bernie.

Now, what's false about it?

[randome]

61. There is no true/false substance to this. You want to sow discord.

You failed with Sanders and you'll fail now.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[Dawgs]

66. You just said "It's a false and loaded question."

And again, we're talking about Clinton here. Not Sanders. Not sure why that's so hard to understand.

[randome]

79. You are trying -and failing again- to get DUers to turn on Clinton.

Which makes this about Sanders because that's the only plausible reason someone would go out of their way to sow discord on this site and in this specific forum.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[Dawgs]

85. Every other forum would block this post, so they had no choice but to put it here.

And, is showing discord towards Hillary on this site any different than showing discord towards Obama. It happens all the time and Obama's not running against Sanders.

[hedgehog]

27. Nope

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. you mean the same person who won NY state twice as a senator

and then went on to be secretary of state? yes. yes, she would. plus she wouldn't have her husbands baggage to tug along.

[etherealtruth]

62. That was my thought .... without Bill Clinton's baggage....

... she likely would have been a more attractive candidate.

Secretary of State and two terms in the senate (she won re-election with 67% of the vote) are impressive ... I don't agree with her on many things, but to insinuate that her political career and accomplishments are due to her spouse is ridiculous.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. this is just a way of discrediting her credentials and attributing her success

to a man.

[DFab420]

143. So you think that if Hillary wasn't first lady she would've been able to run for NY senate seat?

[etherealtruth]

144. Yes I do ... the (idiot) governor of my state was a business person prior to his election

So you think that if Hillary wasn't first lady she wouldn't have been re-elected with 67% of the vote?

[uponit7771]

114. +1

[treestar]

154. This^^^^^^^^^^^

Word!

[salinsky]

34. So, you'd like to posit that she's "unqualified" ....

.... please proceed governor.

How long before you steer the conversation to her "intelligence"?

[DFab420]

39. She sat on the board of WalMart. People pay her 250,000 dollars for an hour of her time

clearly she's incredibly intelligent.

Is that intelligence tempered with a steady hand on the till? That is what I am concerned about. We have someone who is laser sharp smart, but also incredibly willing to use force to achieve her means.

[merrily]

179. Didn't she get invited to the Board of Walmart when Bubba was governor of

Arkansas?

[B Calm]

35. Back when she was Hillary Rodham, she was President of the Young Republicans.

That said, I would presume she would still be a Corporate Walmart Lawyer or something similar to that.

[tammywammy]

123. As Hillary Rodham she was a staff attorney for the Children's Defense Fund. n/t

[B Calm]

136. So was that after being President of Young Republicans and before being

a Walmart lawyer?

[iandhr]

38. If your name was Edward Moore not Edward Moore Kennedy, your candidacy would be a joke.

[DFab420]

42. A 40 year legacy in the Senate and you think that was just because of his name?

Jesus the logical fallacies here are fucking insane.

Please make sure to stretch before such nimble mental gymnastics.

[randome]

58. Time spent in the Senate means nothing, either.

Sanders never worked well with others. It shows in the fact that he has fewer Senate endorsements than Ted Cruz.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[iandhr]

90. When he ran for the Senate in 1962 is was 29 running against someone named Edward McCormack...

... for them Dem nomination.


Ted had not accomplished anything at this point. That was a famous line in their debate.



In terms of Hillary she has done a lot. SCHIP was a huge win if we are bashing her about healthcare.

[treestar]

156. Getting elected in the first place would be the time at which to analyze that

And wouldn't you have objected that it was nepotism for him to get elected?

[treestar]

155. exactly and would Caroline Kennedy

have anything published or be an ambassador had she been born to some ordinary people?

I would think OP should object to her getting that job.

[iandhr]

158. Of course the OP would say nothing of the sort.

[treestar]

165. are you being sarcastic? The OP is arguing people should be

disqualified if they are related or married to someone previously in office.

[iandhr]

167. Yes I am

[Frances]

40. Did you not know that Hillary was elected Senator from New York in her own right

Hillary is probably the best qualified candidate for President in the last 30 years

The difference between Hillary and Trump is laughable

So get over yourself

[Dawgs]

45. Best qualified with the worst judgement.

And, she was former first lady when she was elected. That's hardly "in her own right".

[LanternWaste]

56. 32nd post hoc ergo prompter hoc fallacy of the day.

"That's hardly "in her own right"..."

32nd post hoc ergo prompter hoc fallacy of the day.

[DFab420]

48. You know Hillary Clinton was elected to the Senate on the back end of her

husbands incredibly popular Presidency?

Like she held office as a senator while still being in the goddamn WH.

She was also supposed to run against Mayor Rudy, who dropped out due to cancer and marriage problems, so she ended up running against an unknown. Meanwhile she had to support of most of the established NY dem power structure.

[Frances]

53. Not to mention the support of most New Yorkers

Hillary went on a listening tour of the state and won the voters over

I hate that you use the term the dem power structure.

When you use that term it makes me think that those civil rights workers who got beaten up and killed and jailed by the white power structure are being ridiculed by you.

You have no idea how much racists hated Bill and Hillary.

African Americans know and they have voted overwhelmingly for Hillary.

[Ino]

109. First they laugh at you...

then they ignore you.

[LuvLoogie]

46. What George said, "You've given me your wah wah..."

[George II]

50. Do you have a point?

[DFab420]

72. Pretty sure I made my point? Your lack of clear rebuttal is telling.

[George II]

84. The subject above is a question.

[LanternWaste]

52. I think it's adorable you want people to believe your question is sincere.

I think it's adorable you want people to believe your question is sincere.

[KingFlorez]

57. If Bernie Sanders had never been elected to office and married well would he be on the streets?

My guess is yes. The man never had a salary until he was elected to office. Let's be real.

[Orsino]

60. She was talented in her own right, and I would bet that she would be a national figure.

Untainted by the Clinton brand and money, she might even have turned progressive. Let's face it, though; America would still deny a woman the White House, and having married Bill gave her a way around that glass ceiling. It's a fucked-up way to have to take the White House, but we haven't left her much of a choice, not when we've let the easy money has been lobby her so hard for so long.

My admittedly faint hope is that once her ambition has been achieved, she will finally feel free enough (or mindful enough of her legacy) to ditch the cult of militarism and work for real progress. If she has the guts, she could do a lot.

[BernieforPres2016]

92. So she had to have the White House because she's entitled, and the money left her no choice?

<It's a fucked-up way to have to take the White House, but we haven't left her much of a choice, not when we've let the easy money has been lobby her so hard for so long.>

In my opinion Hillary is a common product of our "elite" schools, a vacuous peddler of bullshit whose intelligence is greatly overestimated. Read her commencement speech from Wellesley and tell me what the hell she is talking about. It reads like a bunch of incoherent jargon to me.

http://www.wellesley.edu/events/commencement/archives/1969commencement/studentspeech

And as far as Hillary the victim being tainted by "the Clinton brand and money", you do realize Hillary is the one who fucked up the healthcare initiative in Bill's first 2 years and then brought in Dick Morris after the 1994 midterm debacle to pull Bill to the right (Welfare Reform Bill, Crime Bill, etc.) in order to win reelection in 1996, don't you?

What is this alleged talent that Hillary has? I'd appreciate it if somebody could explain it to me, because I've been watching her for 25 years and never seen it.

[Orsino]

98. The system really is that fucked up.

And yes, she's a victim in that she couldn't choose her own path. Eight years of First Ladyship is very confining, but you could see her going above and beyond expectations ( while being dutiful enough to endorse some nasty shit). At least her cage is an extremely gilded one.

[DFab420]

69. How is it sexist? I am only asking what her record is without the accomplishments of another person

attached to it?

If anything I want to look at her as a person without the shadow of her husband, how is that sexist?

Or are you saying that women can be defined by their marriage if the marriage brings positive connotations?

[DFab420]

83. Being the spouse of a president is an accomplishment???

Holy fucking shit...you claim I'm the sexist one but you literally just defined her accomplishments through a gender role....

[qdouble]

68. Being a two term Senator and SOS isn't enough qualifications to be president?

DU is bizarro world sometimes.

[DFab420]

70. 8 years, 3 passed bills and one term as SoS in which both Libya and Syria fall apart?

Not exactly a stellar record of accord.

[qdouble]

75. Just say you don't like Hillary,

don't try to mark her as unqualified. You're so transparent.

[DFab420]

80. I don't know her personally. But I certainly dislike much of the policy choices she's made

and don't trust her judgement as a leader.

[qdouble]

87. That's fine

but her background is just as good or greater than many former presidents, so there's no reason to question whether she's qualified for the job.

[DFab420]

88. IT ISN'T THOUGH. That's kind of the fucking point. Her background is that of 8 years in the senate

and one term as SoS in which she helped cast two countries into turmoil.


That is not a good or greater background.

[LexVegas]

71. There it is. nt

[moriah]

73. Actually, according to some, she'd be more electable... because she would have divorced Bill.

I will respond latrr more in depth but have a dr apt.

[The_Casual_Observer]

77. Probably not, but so what?

[wendylaroux]

78. she's only this far because of establishment help.she's a horrible politician.

[Jester Messiah]

82. She didn't acquire ruthless ambition as a wedding gift.

So yes, I think this rose would smell as foul by any other name.

[MariaThinks]

86. she can probably thank Bill for getting her through law school as well

sarcasm off

if I was to take all the crap written about Hillary and just replace the name with Bernie, I would imagine all my comments would be targeted to be hidden by the same people making those comments about Hillary.

She had the courage to try to overhaul healthcare in the 90s. She wanted healthcare for all. the republican machine destroyed her. Are you like Trump who blames soldiers for being captured?

If all you are finding is her move, you are very search challenged. She has been a Senator, Secretary of State for 4+ years, best selling author, and lawyer.

[DFab420]

89. She was a Senator of a state she hardly lived in, winning an election during her husbands last term

as a popular president, she was then a one term SoS who helped cast two countries into political turmoil that has resulted in death and chaos.

Her courage in trying to overhaul healthcare in the 90's was admirable right up until she decided to stop fighting for universal healthcare. Where the fuck did the Trump strawman come from.

best selling author? Who the fuck cares, we are talking about the Presidency, not who gets to be the next Oprah.

Lawyer. Boom see this right here is an actual accomplishment that I feel lends itself to the office of Presidency. Someone who is learned in our laws and constructional rights.

[jamese777]

91. Gallup Poll Most Admired Woman

1990: Margaret Thatcher
1991: Barbara Bush
1992: Barbara Bush
1993: Hillary Rodham Clinton
1994: Hillary Rodham Clinton
1995: Mother Teresa
1996: Mother Teresa
1997: Hillary Rodham Clinton
1998: Hillary Rodham Clinton
1999: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2000: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2001: Laura Bush
2002: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2003: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2004: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2005: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2006: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2007: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2008: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2009: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2010: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2011: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2012: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2013: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2014: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2015: Hillary Rodham Clinton

[DFab420]

95. That doesn't really answer my question..

[randome]

97. Women! What the hell do they know, am I right?

It does answer your question because if you have even a modicum of self-reflection, you'd understand that a vast number of people think the exact opposite of you, and you might start inching forward to the possibility that your entire premise is wrong from the start.

I mean, that's what an objective viewpoint would look like to me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[DFab420]

104. So because she's famous and women look up to her the most that means she'll be a good president?

I'm attempting to follow your logic but my wee little man brain can't seem to figure out why being on a list of admired women makes you a good POTUS?

[randome]

124. You're not following me at all.

I said because so many millions of women think she's worthy of the name 'most admired woman in the world', that maybe you might want to consider that you're wrong to think she's not up to the task.

I know if that was me, it would give me pause and I wouldn't be in such a rush to post scurrilous OPs like yours.

You know something? I'm not female and I'm not sure I can understand what being female completely means. But I recognize that a hell of a lot of other women think very highly of Clinton. Absent evidence to the contrary -like eating kittens or something- I'm fine with that level of 'ignorance'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[jamese777]

103. Sure It Does

Your question is a ridiculous hypothetical. How could anyone know what MIGHT have happened if Hillary Rodham hadn't married William Jefferson Clinton in 1975? The fact that she has enough name recognition and accomplishments to be the only person ever to be named "Most Admired" twenty times (Dwight Eisenhower is second at 13 times) is why she is a force to be reckoned with in American politics.

[DFab420]

106. Is this the same America that keeps up with the Kardashians?

Just because she's admired and has name recognition doesn't mean she'll be a good and effective POTUS.

Basically you are proving my argument for me. That really the only reason people like her is her last name is Clinton and she's been in the public eye because of it.....

[uponit7771]

115. +1

[JustAnotherGen]

93. I don't care

[DFab420]

96. Ah the winning strategy for a GE right here....

[JustAnotherGen]

99. I'm not her Campaign Manager

[Gomez163]

101. Rush Limbaugh shares your views. How's that feel???

[DFab420]

108. Henry Kissinger shares her views...How does that feel?

Rush Limbaugh is an ass with hard drug habit..

Henry Kissinger is a war criminal.

You decide who you are more uncomfortable associating with...

[uponit7771]

118. Sigh...

[Gomez163]

128. What does Kissinger have to do with your blazing sexism???

[uponit7771]

117. +1

[thebeautifulstruggle]

102. she has no doubt piggybacked her way to being another election away from the WH

it's all been calculated

the only thing I can be thankful for is that, Obama won in 08....even though he is a corporatist too, he has conviction of character and got some decent things passed.

I have absolutely no faith in Clinton.

[John Poet]

107. If her name were not 'Clinton', she would be "this close"

to a jail cell.

[NanceGreggs]

112. "... all I can find in her history is moving to NY after being the First Lady."

Don't be afraid to ask someone to show you how to use Google, or other on-line search tools. Apparently you don't know how to do so on your own.

[runaway hero]

121. Yes.

She would have been the First Female Governor of Illinois in 1992 and would have been President Already in 2000/2001.


George Bush Jr loses to her, we never hear of Jeb because the Political Dynasty never gets off the ground. After having a woman in office for 8 years, Barack Obama or JFK Jr is elected in 2008.

[Carolina]

194. Dream on, newbie

She never even returned to her native Illinois.

She rode Bill's coat tails to power. He had the intellect (Georgetown Univ, Rhodes Scholar, Yale Law), charisma, gift of gab, and natural ability to connect with people. She was smart, too (Wellesley, Yale Law). After law school, she went to DC to work on the Nixon impeachment committee, but her stint there did not last long because, among other reasons, she did not pass the DC bar. So after leaving DC, what did HRC do? She ran off to Arkansas! Yes, this dynamo of feminism whom so many women say could have done anything, been anything on her own… did not go back to her native Chicago, did not go back to New England (MA, CT) where she was educated. No, she ran off to Arkansas. She chased after Bill because she recognized his rising star. He had the talent to go along with the intellect. He had held leadership positions nearly all his life: high school (Boy’s State) and college (class president for 2 years, etc.). He became Governor, chaired the National Governors’ Association and finally became POTUS. It was only through him that she was introduced to the nation and even then, it was rocky because of her abrasive, snarky remarks about baking cookies.

When she ran for POTUS in 2008, she cited her 20 years of experience. Really? First Lady of AK for 12 years and FLOTUS for 8 years. Oh, and she was a corporate lawyer at the Rose Law Firm where her client was Walmart and where she relied heavily on the counsel of Vince Foster. Governor Bill and Partner Vince are why she was able to rise to partner level at the Rose Law Firm so quickly.

She could never have carpet bagged her way to the NY Senate seat had she not been FLOTUS. And from there to SOS because of deals and Obama's obsession with Team of Rivals. The rest is sad history. Without powerful men, we --the people of the US-- would never have heard of Attorney H. Rodham.

[runaway hero]

197. I disagree.

She is Bill's brain imo. The one who keeps him straight. She would found a way into the spotlight if she wanted it. I feel she recognized 2>1 and that would be easier then going home.


BTW, I love these what if scenarios, lots of fun

[Onlooker]

129. A non-sexist would ask, If Bill hadn't married her, would he have become president n/t

[DFab420]

131. Why? Do you think Bill only ran for Governor because of Hillary's ambitions?

[Hekate]

130. Not this "little lady" shit again. If you could not find a record of her achievements...

... you didn't look very hard at all.

That's like saying Michelle Obama never did a thing but have children and be a homemaker until she came to the White House and started a cute garden. Both women are high-powered and respected lawyers, or have you forgotten that entirely?

Yeah, you have.

[DFab420]

132. I didn't forget that at all, but her record as a lawyer alone isn't enough to convince me she'd be a

good POTUS.

I also don't know if I think Michelle Obama would make a good POTUS right now. I would hope she did some other legislative work before stepping up to the plate.

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth without saying a lot about why you think Hillary would be a good POTUS.

[BreakfastClub]

137. Wow, the sexism comes unmasked when a woman runs for president! Shame on you. nt

[DFab420]

138. in what way is this sexist? I am asking what she has done that makes her a viable candidate for

being POTUS.

8 years in the Senate in a state she never lived in and a term as SoS in my opinion show that she ISN'T suited to the job. Nothing about that is based on her gender.

My theory is that because her last name in Clinton, she is able to hide a fairly weak record. How is that sexist?

[treestar]

145. We'll never know as we can't prove what would have happened

But her marriage should not disqualify her any more than it should qualify her.

If JFK had been John Fitzgerald Smith son of a plumber, would he have ever been President?

If FDR had been Franklin D. Jones, son of a teacher, would he have ever been President?

[Carolina]

193. The HUGE differences that separate FDR and JFK from HRC

are that they never spoke or behaved as though they achieved what they did on their own. Then, once in power and despite the wealth from whence they'd both come, they worked to make the nation better. They did not seek power or more money for their own selfish aggrandizement. They connected with people, regular people in ways that will always elude $hillary.

HRC, on the other hand, loves to talk about HER decades long record, but not only is it largely derived from being Mrs. Bill, it is abysmal and served only to further her advancement up the power and money food chain.

She rode Bill's coat tails to power. He had the intellect (Georgetown Univ, Rhodes Scholar, Yale Law), charisma, gift of gab, and natural ability to connect with people. She was smart, too (Wellesley, Yale Law). After law school, she went to DC to work on the Nixon impeachment committee, but her stint there did not last long because, among other reasons, she did not pass the DC bar. She tells the story that she went to work for the Children's Defense Fund (CDF) founded by Marian Wright Edelman as evidence of her advocacy for children and that's true... some 30 plus years ago. But recall that Marian’s husband, Peter Edelman who became Bill Clinton’s Assistant Secretary of Health and Human Services, resigned in protest over the 1996 Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act better known as Welfare Reform because of the dire effects it would have on the poor women and children. HRC supported Bill and the bill; but Peter Edelman was right.

So after leaving DC, what did HRC do? She ran off to Arkansas! This dynamo of feminism whom so many women say could have done anything, been anything on her own… did not go back to her native Chicago, did not go back to New England (MA, CT) where she was educated. No, she ran off to Arkansas. She chased after Bill because she recognized his rising star. He had the talent to go along with the intellect. He had held leadership positions nearly all his life: high school (Boy’s State where he symbolically shook JFK's hand) and college (class president for 2 years, etc.). He became Governor, chaired the National Governors’ Association and finally became POTUS. It was only through him that she was introduced to the nation and even then, it was rocky because of her abrasive, snarky remarks about baking cookies.

When she ran for POTUS in 2008, she cited her 20 years of experience. Really? First Lady of AK for 12 years and FLOTUS for 8 years. Oh, and she was a corporate lawyer at the Rose Law Firm where her client was Walmart – that champion of poor people – and where she relied heavily on the counsel of Vince Foster.

She could never have carpet bagged her way to the NY Senate seat had she not been FLOTUS. And once in the Senate, what did she DO? What legislation or amendments to legislation illustrate her initiative or activism on behalf of the people. She voted for IWR, the Patriot Acts 1 & 2 and Bush's Bankruptcy!

Then there was her abysmal management and nasty conduct during the 2008 primary campaign. She had the money, she had the name (Clinton, not Rodham), she was entitled, she was "in it to win it" and so arrogant that she claimed it would be over by Super Tuesday. But when it wasn't and she was losing, she resorted to the gutter, praising McCain while deriding Obama as someone who only gave pretty speeches. And when the Party urged her to bow out gracefully, she said that she was going to stay in the primary race through CA because "you never know... remember Bobby Kennedy..." Her insinuation (a veiled wish?) that Obama might be assassinated like RFK was beyond classless and tasteless. It was evil (google Keith Olbermann on that atrocity). When she finally, gracelessly bowed out, she did so on condition that the Obama organization and DNC pay off her campaign debt. Some management skills, just like her Wall Street benefactors who screw things up, then expect others to pay for the disaster they created.

On to SOS, where Obama selected her because he'd been inspired by Lincoln's team of rivals and wanted to keep her busy and away so she couldn't be a quasi-backbencher sniping at him. In the end, she was terrible there with her Honduras regime change causing many men, women and children (some alone and as young as 5) to flee the disaster that nation became. Same with Libya and Syria. HRC, the consummate pro-MIC corporatist, never saw a war she didn't like.

She is part of the Clinton legacy (the two for one, the 8 years of reflected experience derived from Bill). She helped found the DLC and fully supported: NAFTA, the Telecommunications Bill of 1996, Welfare Reform, and overturning Glass-Steagall. She and Bill kept Alan Greenspan at the Fed, placed the then Mr. Goldman Sucks himself Robert Reuben as head of Treasury and hired as financial advisor that abominable Wall Streeter Larry Summers (who lost a $1.8 billion from Harvard's endowment!). This Clinton triumvirate wrecked the economy for main street, but saved Wall Street, especially Goldman-Sachs which has subsequently paid her handsomely. And as DUer tularetom once said: "They didn't pay her that kind of money because of her oratorical skills, her charismatic personality or her insight into current events. She has none of the first two and very little of the third."

This is HRC's history without mentioning fracking, the TPP, and the Clinton Foundation slush fund. She's in it for herself, for power and more money! Her name (and Bill's) shouldn't even be spoken along side JFK's or especially FDR's since Billary's Turd Way positions are the antithesis of the New Deal!

[treestar]

195. A couple makes decisions together about where they are going to live

Your first paragraphs are based on your hatred of HRC only, nothing more. They just reflect that you don't like her and so you've created some standard you don't even know if FDR or JFK compiled with. They didn't have to sell their record - they were born to families where they were important people at birth.

There is no difference where the argument is whether those related to others already in office or closer to privilege and more likely to be appointed/elected to their earlier offices disqualifies the rest of their relatives and these days, spouses.

FDR and JFK got started easier than Hillary or Bill. They came from privileged families.

[Carolina]

202. You miss the point... so typical

I hate her duplicity about her past and her record. And BTW, they weren't a couple when she chased after him and went to AK. She knew he was a womanizer, but the benefits outweighed that. Same thing with the Lewinsky Affair. I could have cared less and loathed the repukes for wasting time and money on it, but always retorted to those who said HRC should leave him with:Why? And give up all the perks of being FLOTUS?! FLOTUS was her perch to a very comfortable life and to POWER!

And again, it's about what people do with power regardless of where they started. NAFTA, the Telecommunications Act, the Crime and Welfare Reform Bills, overturning Glass-Steagall, IWR, Patriot Act 1 & 2, Bankruptcy Bill, Honduras, Libya, Syria, TPP. fracking... were, and are, not good for people.

[grossproffit]

148. You wouldn't even know Bill's name had he not married Hillary.

[IdaBriggs]

172. Agreed. Or Monica Lewinsky. Or Gennifer Flowers. Or Linda Tripp.

That would have been awesome. Sigh.

[COLGATE4]

181. Do you seriously believe that any sane adult still gives a flying f---k

about Monica and Linda Tripp???

[IdaBriggs]

182. I am responding to the post "without Hillary, we wouldn't have heard about Bill"

because apparently Hillary gave Bill the backbone he needed to become President (per the poster) and I was briefly reminded of all the other people who wouldn't have consumed our life during his presidency, who we ALSO would never have heard of either.

I get that Hillary supporters don't mind that Bill Clinton was impeached for lying under oath after having cheated on his wife, lied to the country about it, and received oral sex from an unpaid White House intern because ... I am not sure why you think that type of crappy character doesn't matter, but you are all good with him being back in the White House in a position of influence as "First Gentleman" because you confuse or understand how his personal sex life justified a total lack of personal integrity.

So, yeah, I have wishful thoughts about "never having heard about those people" and the damn blue dress. Unfortunately, it happened, and selective amnesia only works for a select few.

The rest of us think the set up for blackmail if/when he messes around on her again is one of the many reasons they should be playing with their grandchildren instead of jockeying for power.

[COLGATE4]

183. You just keep counting on that old, failed outrage. It'll keep you warm until the

convention.

[IdaBriggs]

184. I save my outrage for more important things; this is just old

"embarrassed to be associated with them" stuff. John Edwards at least had the grace to slink away when we all found out he was a lying dog who cheated on his cancer stricken wife. Bill is out campaigning for the wife who he persuaded to lie for him on national television while she called his partners nasty names.

[brooklynite]

150. Hillary RODHAM worked for the Chief Counsel of the House Judiciary Committee during Watergate...

...she'll probably never amount to much politically...

[tirebiter]

162. Life magazine found Hillary Diane Rodham remarkable in 1969

http://time.com/3502935/life-with-hillary-portraits-of-a-wellesley-grad-1969/

LIFE With Hillary: Portraits of a Wellesley Grad, 1969

Long before Yale Law, before Arkansas, before her marriage to Bill, before the Senate, the White House, her own (first?) run for the White House, the State Department, the “texts from Hillary” meme that just keeps on giving and so many other highlights (and lowlights) of her remarkable life, she was Hillary Diane Rodham, the older sister of two brothers and the over-achieving daughter of loving, politically conservative parents from suburban Park Ridge, Ill.

Intelligent, intensely curious and, from a young age, driven to find a way to somehow contribute to the world around her, Hillary Rodham enrolled at Wellesley College in the fall of 1965. It was there, in Massachusetts, that the moderate Republican underwent her transformation (she might characterize it as “an evolution”) to committed Democrat.

By the time she graduated from Wellesley in May 1969, Hillary Rodham was already such a notable figure that she was featured, along with four other speakers from four other schools — and excerpts from their commencement addresses — in the June 20, 1969, issue of LIFE, in an article titled, simply, “The Class of ’69.”

[BernieforPres2016]

190. Read her commencement speech

It is a pile of self absorbed meaningless drivel.

[Carolina]

192. Self-absorbed

then and now...

[RFKHumphreyObama]

170. No...

She'd probably be an ex-President by now. She was already rising through the ranks working as a congressional staffer and an attorney before she married Bill. My guess is that there's a good chance she would have launched a political career in the 1980s and perhaps pipped Bill for the Democratic presidential nomination in 1992 and gone on to defeat Bush.

I probably have this anecdote slightly wrong but I think I read one of Bill.Clinton's friends warned him back in the 1970s that Hillary was a rising star and that marrying him would possibly be a hindrance to her achieving her full potential. I think Hillary put her ambitions for a long time to advance Bill's political career and I think without him, she would have risen to the top much sooner

And I say that as someone not particularly enthusiastic about Hillary Clinton's candidacy

[Carolina]

187. Wrong

She is abrasive and does not have the people skills Bill had As I said down thread:

She rode Bill's coat tails to power. He had the intellect (Georgetown Univ, Rhodes Scholar, Yale Law), charisma, gift of gab, and natural ability to connect with people. She was smart, too (Wellesley, Yale Law). After law school, she went to DC to work on the Nixon impeachment committee, but her stint there did not last long because, among other reasons, she did not pass the DC bar. She tells the story that she went to work for the Children's Defense Fund (CDF) founded by Marian Wright Edelman as evidence of her advocacy for children and that's true... some 20 plus years ago. But recall that Marian’s husband, Peter Edelman who became Bill Clinton’s Assistant Secretary of Health and Human Services, resigned in protest over the 1996 Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act better known as Welfare Reform because of the dire effects it would have on the poor, especially women and children. HRC supported Bill and the bill; but Peter Edelman was right.

So after leaving DC, what did HRC do? She ran off to Arkansas! Yes, this dynamo of feminism whom so many women say could have done anything, been anything on her own… did not go back to her native Chicago, did not go back to New England (MA, CT) where she was educated. No, she ran off to Arkansas. She chased after Bill because she recognized his rising star. He had the talent and charisma to go along with the intellect. He had held leadership positions nearly all his life: high school (Boy’s State) and college (class president for 2 years, etc.). He became Governor, chaired the National Governors’ Association and finally became POTUS. It was only through him that she was introduced to the nation and even then, it was rocky because of her abrasive, snarky remarks about baking cookies.

[runaway hero]

200. Agreed

Last edited Thu Apr 28, 2016, 08:35 PM - Edit history (1)

I think we never hear of the Bushes if Hillary is still single.

[pampango]

173. If FDR's name was John Smith, if Trump's name was pampango, if JFK's name was Pat O'Brien, etc.

I prefer Bernie for what he stands for not for who his parents were or whom he married. I will do the same for Hillary.

[Agnosticsherbet]

176. She is an accomplished, brilliant woman on her own. She is not there because of her husband.

You do not have to like her.

[Carolina]

191. Had she not been FLOTUS

no one would ever have heard of her and she could never have carpet-bagged her way to the NY Senate seat

He had charisma to go with a razor sharp intellect. She has zero, zip, nada, zilch of charisma, elan, people skills or even gift of gab.

[Beacool]

216. I read all the other comments you wrote. They are nothing but pap from a Clinton hater.

Your drivel is so off base that it doesn't even deserve a thoughtful answer. It's the kind of dismissive nonsense one can expect from the RW.

[Carolina]

243. Truth hurts

doesn't it. Can you deny what you call drivel:
IWR/Iraq
Honduras
Libya
Syria
TPP
Keystone XL
For Profit Prisons
Pro Monsanto
Bankruptcy bill
Pushed fracking on the rest of the world while SOS
Wall Street speaking fees
Weapons deals with $$$ funneled through and to the Clinton Foundation
NAFTA
Glass-Steagall reversal
No universal health care (ACA = insurance; insurance does not = healthcare)

No, you can't. It's HRC's must vaunted record. Deal with it!

[Agnosticsherbet]

238. I sense some hostility towards our nominee and the next President.

Opinion may vary.

[SheenaR]

177. Sexism?

Plenty of women, including myself feel the EXACT same way.

Hillary "Smith", with her "accomplishments" would not be here, nor would she have been SOS. Senator perhaps.

Funny, you all knocked Obama for a light resume and hers is fairly similar if not lighter on the accomplishments.

[NNadir]

178. If Bernie Sanders didn't leave New York to become a Senator in a hippie State, would he be...

...a Senator?

Ms. Clinton is a very bright and very successful woman in her own right. Some people have big problems with bright and successful women, I know, but very little can be done about that or the fact that some people hate it when women demonstrate being bright and successful.

This is a huge problem across many cultures.

Say what you will about Ms. Clinton, but she successfully defeated the whiny baby boomer still living in 1970's fantasies.

I know when I speak. I started my adult life with those same fantasies, but unlike people who would have never been elected Senator in New York - and by this I mean Senator Sanders - I grew up.

It's too bad that many of the advocates of the losing candidate show a preternatural inability to do just that, grow up.

Have a nice evening.

[SFnomad]

185. If Bill Clinton never married Hillary Rodham

Bill Clinton would still be a 3rd rate gas jockey in Hope, Arkansas

And Hillary would still have been First Lady, Senator, Secretary of State and the Democratic Nominee for President.

[Carolina]

189. BS... she always lacked people skills

Bill was smart, had charisma and a gift of gab/connecting with people that she could only dream of. He went home after Yale Law School. She followed him, after flopping in DC...

She would be nothing without WJC. Plus, how do you think she rose to partner level so quickly at the Rose Law Firm? Bill Clinton and Vince Foster!

[treestar]

196. It is absurd to say she lacks people skills

She could not have done what she has without that. If you insist she is not likable to voters, she certainly inspires people who work for her. They seem to have her back totally.

[runaway hero]

198. She does lack people skills

She said it herself. She is highly intelligent, and has street smarts, which is what makes up for it. Someone like Ted Cruz doesn't have street smarts, which is why is having everyone slam him north and south.

[treestar]

199. Where did she say that?

[runaway hero]

203. Here it is

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/270880-clinton-i-am-not-a-natural-

Granted women face a lot of public scrutiny, but she always did have these problems. She is extremely percetive and intelligent, and that is what sets her apart from most.

[snowy owl]

219. Her credentials: legacy (Clinton's first lady; Obama's SOS; NY senator; failed healthcare policy.

No blame for failed healthcare policy. I wish she had been successful but she was never for single payor. What else has she accomplished?

I wonder how she stacks up against Merkel in personality and communication qualities?

[runaway hero]

244. I think she is even with Merkel

But angela has major issues right now, I think that she needs learn to do be at retail politics. She is similar to Merkel in demeanor, Hillary talks more.

[Carolina]

186. No hate at all. Total agreement!

As I have said in an OP and in other thread responses, $Hillary would nobody without BJ Bill.

She rode Bill's coat tails to power. He had the intellect (Georgetown Univ, Rhodes Scholar, Yale Law), charisma, gift of gab, and natural ability to connect with people. She was smart, too (Wellesley, Yale Law). After law school, she went to DC to work on the Nixon impeachment committee, but her stint there did not last long because, among other reasons, she did not pass the DC bar. She tells the story that she went to work for the Children's Defense Fund (CDF) founded by Marian Wright Edelman as evidence of her advocacy for children and that's true... some 20 plus years ago. But recall that Marian’s husband, Peter Edelman who became Bill Clinton’s Assistant Secretary of Health and Human Services, resigned in protest over the 1996 Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act better known as Welfare Reform because of the dire effects it would have on the poor, especially women and children. HRC supported Bill and the bill; but Peter Edelman was right.

So after leaving DC, what did HRC do? She ran off to Arkansas! Yes, this dynamo of feminism whom so many women say could have done anything, been anything on her own… did not go back to her native Chicago, did not go back to New England (MA, CT) where she was educated. No, she ran off to Arkansas. She chased after Bill because she recognized his rising star. He had the talent and charisma to go along with the intellect. He had held leadership positions nearly all his life: high school (Boy’s State) and college (class president for 2 years, etc.). He became Governor, chaired the National Governors’ Association and finally became POTUS. It was only through him that she was introduced to the nation and even then, it was rocky because of her abrasive, snarky remarks about baking cookies.

When she ran for POTUS in 2008, she cited her 20 years of experience. Really? First Lady of AK for 12 years and FLOTUS for 8 years. Oh, and she was a corporate lawyer at the Rose Law Firm where her client was Walmart – that champion of poor people – and where she relied heavily on the counsel of Vince Foster.

She could never have carpet bagged her way to the NY Senate seat had she not been FLOTUS. And once in the Senate, what did she DO? What legislation or amendments to legislation illustrate her initiative or activism on behalf of the people. She voted for IWR, the Patriot Acts 1 & 2 and Bush's Bankruptcy. Such a great legislative record!

Then there was her abysmal management and nasty conduct during the 2008 primary campaign. She had the money, she had the name (Clinton, not Rodham), she was entitled, she was "in it to win it" and so arrogant that she claimed it would be over by Super Tuesday. But when it wasn't and she was losing, she resorted to the gutter, praising McCain and deriding Obama as someone who only gave pretty speeches. And when the Party urged her to bow out gracefully, she said that she was going to stay in the primary race through CA because "you never know... remember Bobby Kennedy..." Her insinuation (a veiled wish?) that Obama might be assassinated like RFK was beyond classless and tasteless. It was evil (google Keith Olbermann on that atrocity). And when she finally, gracelessly bowed out, she did so on condition that the Obama organization and DNC pay off her campaign debt. Some management skills, just like her Wall Street benefactors who screw things up, then expect others to pay for the disaster they created.


This is Hillary Rodham's history without discussing her disastrous tenure at State and her support of fracking, the TPP, etc. Bottom line: without powerful men, she be unknown Atty. H. Rodham.

PS: I always said that she married the Big Dog knowing he was a womanizer because the benefits outweighed all else. For the same reason, she stayed with him through the public humiliation of the Lewinsky affair. After all, who gives up the perks of being FLOTUS... it was a perch of comfort and POWER!

[annavictorious]

239. Jealous much?

Carpetbagger? I'm old enough to remember when bitter outsiders called Robert Kennedy a carpetbagger when he moved to NYC in order to run for Senate. No on who actually lived here at the time thought that way, except the racists who hated all things Kennedy. We were proud to have him represent us. He died a US Senator from NY. Carpetbagger, indeed.

I live in NY. We were proud to have Bill Clinton, a former president, move to our city/state after his tenure in the White House. It is beyond me how any sentient being does not realize that a former president and first lady are citizens of every state in the union by virtue of their service to their country. Hillary worked very hard to get elected the first time; she listened to residents and addressed our concerns and needs. She focused on problem-solving and knew how to work with others to get things done for first responders after 9/11 (including my husband), federalized National Guardsman, rural upstaters, and children throughout the state.

What's really sad is that Sanders's supporters are at the point where they sound like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh when they discuss the Clintons. You're much more regressive that progressive at this point.

[Carolina]

245. Jealous? Hell no

Like so many of your .... you miss the point, which was and is that HRC could never have carpet-bagged her way to the NY Senate seat had she not been FLOTUS. Read, learn and take off the blinders!

As Atty. H. Rodham from Washington, recently moved to NY, she could never have run for Senate!

[Jackie Wilson Said]

201. Right off GOP talking point, you forgot to add all she has is she is a woman.

[DFab420]

209. Not even close. Don't you have some more disparaging remarks about Sanders supporters to

post elsewhere?

[Jackie Wilson Said]

210. I have never disparaged a Sanders supporter. I am one. I only go after those who

advocate for the end of the world by electing Cruz.

[DFab420]

214. Yesterday you literally posted a thread calling us pouters.

Saying that all we did was stay at home and pout.

You said it was an apt description.

Again you speak out of both sides of your mouth.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

215. Anybody who would stay home is NOT a Sanders supporter.

You do understand that, I know you do.

[DFab420]

228. But that's not what you said.

Sandernista rebels are so rebellious and so radical they're going to stay home and pout if their preferred candidate isn't on the ballot, and berate everyone else who participates with indignant sneers and elitist scorn.


A friend of mine just said this to me and I had to repeat it here.

Talk about summarizing this whole thing succinctly.


BTW, the person who said this is like me, a Bernie voter. But I guess, like me, a different type of Bernie voter than many we find here at this political message board.

Again, double speak. You say one thing then pretend people can't infer your true meaning....

[Jackie Wilson Said]

231. You arent making sense.

Liberals and Sanders supporters, real ones, dont stay home and pout.

SandersNISTAS are different.

[DFab420]

233. Lol.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

234. SandersNISTAS are not liberals or Sanders supporters.

THey are in it only for themselves.

[doc03]

204. Probably wouldn't know who she was n/t

[senz]

207. All she did on her own was to make partner at the Rose Law Firm.

Every single thing she has attempted since, she has executed with mediocrity or totally screwed up. Some of her screw ups were major disasters for other people.

She would bring nothing of value to the presidency and a tremendous amount of very odoriferous baggage.

[Beacool]

212. Your comment would fit right in on Free Republic and is without any merit.

Pathetic.....

[DFab420]

218. Could you explain what she's done after that you think warrents touting as an achievement?

Or you just going to insult people?

[Beacool]

220. Do your own freaking research.

I only insult chauvinist jerks who try to diminish the accomplishments of the most qualified person of either gender to run for president in many years.

Before I tell you what horse to ride on, I'll just stop right here.

[DFab420]

226. So because she's a woman critizing her is chaunvinsit? That's a bit sexist.

Again you say she's the most qualified but can't even bother to put in ANYTHING you like about her record.

You realize how ridiculous that is.

[senz]

222. My comment is true.

When Bill's presidency ended, she carpetbagged to NY to grab an open senate seat with her famous last name as the only qualification.

She accomplished nothing in the Senate except two disastrous votes (IWR & Patriot Act).

She then ran for president and lost (after a very dirty campaign).

She made a deal with the winner to get SoS, and while in that position she facilitated weapons sales for donations to her family foundation and screwed up Libya, Syria, and Honduras.

Obama was not happy with her warmongering and now has a GOOD SoS.

Talk about "pathetic."

[Beacool]

223. Your take of events is totally slanted.

Frankly, I'm done justifying on a Democratic board what Hillary has accomplished. This place has jumped the shark and lost all sense of reality.

She made no deal with the winner. She rejected Obama's offer to be his SOS several times, but don't let reality infringe on your fantasy.

[amborin]

213. no

[99Forever]

217. It's doubtful she would have even been a Senator.

She just isn't that freakin' smart.

Although she quite clearly know how to sell out her loyalty to the highest bidder, so she does the same qualification as most of the Congress does.

[Beacool]

221. What an ignorant comment!!!!!!!

You may not like Hillary, but she's usually one of the smartest people in any room.

[DFab420]

227. But she clearly states in her biography she had no desire for political life

So I doubt she would've gotten involved in politics the way she did if it weren't for her tenure in the WH as the First Lady.

[rock]

229. Go ahead, you can say it

The Democratic candidate for president!

[DFab420]

230. Oh I'm sorry have we held the nominating convention yet?

Must've missed that.

[rock]

235. I'm psychic

Like the BSers. That is why they are so knowledgeable.

[DFab420]

237. Nice, can you tell us which country Hillary will vote to invade next???

[MrWendel]

232. We don't hate you...

DonaldFab420

[DFab420]

236. Lol took you a whole day to come up with?

[MrWendel]

240. Nah.....

took me a whole day to notice your op.

[Herman4747]

241. No, of course not. nt

[book_worm]

242. Same thing Teddy Kennedy was asked in his 1962 Senate candidate

except that she has been a US Senator and Secretary of State. But nice try.

[Splinter Cell]

247. Nope.

She wouldn't have been in the Senate. She's a lousy politician, and the only thing she's ever had to overcome that is the popularity of the "Clinton" brand.

[Chitown Kev]

248. To answer your initial question

I believe that she would have...in fact, she might have been President already, depending on what state she lived in.

For example, if she had come back to Illinois instead of going to Arkansas with Bill, it is altogether possible that she would have followed a political track that led her to the Presidency.