2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCongratulations Hillary Supporters
Your candidate has won.
I really hope you can bring enough heat to carry that victory into the GE. I don't believe you can. I believe you have sealed a Trump presidency. But I really hope you can make something better than what I see as likely. A trump presidency will be a disaster.
But celebrate. Yall got what you wanted. Congratulations on your victory.
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seekthetruth
(504 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)I'm quite sure of it.
I don't believe your negative assertion that bitter Sanders supporters will get out and vote for Trump...after all, their problem is that they didn't bother to vote for the guy they purported to support. Why would they get "more motivated" for an alternate right-wing, "I gotcher free college right HEAH" hating asshole of a candidate whose principal platform is that of deportation and stripping rights from women and gays?
The fact that you said that, though, doesn't cover you--or your candidate--in glory.
Looking forward to a Hillary presidency--she's going to do great things.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Go Hillary!
MADem
(135,425 posts)Everyone will be lifted up, and there will be more love and kindness, and less carping and backbiting.
You'll see. It WILL be awesome. Go Hillary!
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)and TPP to do anything else.
Hugs!
Go Hillary!
MADem
(135,425 posts)when HRC opens up a new day of increased opportunity for all Americans. She's going to work with us, and we're going to lift each other up.
You can 'come with,' or you can stand off to the side, snarling and griping.
Your choice!
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)May she rein for a thousand years!
Down with the filthy Progressives!
(Oh, I am already running for Democratic Delegate in my state. Viva el revolución! )
MADem
(135,425 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Down with third way. Here on titanic underground you might want to turn a blind eye to whats happening.
Others dont care to be blind followers to corruption, pandering, insincerity, DINO-ism. You WILL get what you you vote for. That's usually how things work. Karma is frequently misunderstood as a mystical concept. It isn't. It's quite down to earth actually. And it's comin' for ya.
Real change has to happen. The planet depends on it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027785764
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)I'm not "coming around". My belief system isn't subject to the prevailing winds within the Democratic Party establishment.
If HRC wants to disavow the support of Goldman Sachs and her other corporate sponsors, and send the piles of dirty money back to said donors, sure, I'll reconsider. I would certainly be concerned about her propensity to use force over compromise in foreign affairs, but I might be willing to take her word for softening her stance.
On the corporate cash side, I won't believe it until I see it. And I'm not holding my breath. For many of my fellow progressives, it's a deal-breaker. I'll vote Democrat down-ticket, provided the candidates haven't sold out to big business. But for POTUS, I will have to see who else is running, or perhaps leave that race blank. I'm not voting for what I see as the lesser of two evils.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Choose wisely.
You can either stand on the sidelines of history, muttering and shaking your fist ineffectually, or you can join us. Your choice.
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)so no, I won't be "muttering"' on the sidelines or "shaking my fist ineffectually". I also won't be voting for a candidate who sold out to a Wall Street. It may not matter to you, but it does to me.
If she is elected and serves the people, great.i would be elated. But if she's in the tank for Goldman Sachs, I will join others in protesting her actions. She doesn't get a pass just because she's a Democrat or a woman (even the first woman). She's either for the poor & working class or she's a shill for her corporate sponsors. I hope SHE chooses wisely - her track record to date does not inspire confidence, at least from a progressive perspective.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Your choice. If the third option works for you, and that sounds like the choice you've made--by all means, have at it.
The bottom line is this--it's going to be Trump or Clinton. Such is the bifurcated nature of American politics. I'm ALL IN for Clinton, because a) I am not stupid, b) The make up of the Supreme Court matters to me--and to generations to come, c) She is the best, the brightest, and the most prepared candidate, and d) She will be WONDERFUL for America and for our standing in the world.
Your vote is your own, of course--you can squander it or use it to help make history.
Do all the good you can, for all the people you can, for as long as you can:
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)I'll pass.
Also enjoy being exploited by corporations, watching our young go off to die in useless wars, sexual harassment of White House Staff & Interns by the First Husband, the 1% enjoy the fruits of the labor of the other 99%, big oil poisoning our nation & planet, health insurers gobble up billions in government subsidies, corruption to run rampant as the Clinton crew lines their pockets at the expense of the poor & working class... Whatever. I get it, she has female parts, so she can do no wrong in your book. I'd be as happy as you if she were an actual progressive like Elizabeth Warren, but whatever your reasons, you get to live with the economic destruction and senseless warfare/bloodshed her fiscal and foreign policies will mostly likely cause.
She is a huge step backward for this country, despite her gender. If I wanted a Republican woman to be a President, I would've donated to Carly Fiorina.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Ayup
?quality=90&strip=all&w=664&h=441&crop=1
MADem
(135,425 posts)We could throw up pics of Sanders with some unsavory characters, too--but that would be descending to your bitter, sour and angry level.
She's fighting for you--even as you hate her, she's fighting for you. You can get onboard, or you can stand on the platform, stewing, carping, and whining, and miss this history-making train.
Your choice.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)What Clinton did not mention was that her bond with Kissinger was personal as well as professional, as she and her husband have for years regularly spent their winter holidays with Kissinger and his wife, Nancy, at the beachfront villa of fashion designer Oscar de la Renta, who died in 2014, and his wife, Annette, in the Dominican Republic.
This campaign tussle over Kissinger began a week earlier, at a previous debate, when Clinton, looking to boost her résumé, said, "I was very flattered when Henry Kissinger said I ran the State Department better than anybody had run it in a long time."
Yeah.
She's fighting for someone alright.
MADem
(135,425 posts)differing perspectives. You're acting like they had to share the bathroom in a bungalow! Surely you're not suggesting that a Bernie Sanders would put his nose in the air like Shirley Temple and refuse to engage people with whom he disagrees? Why--I DO think you are suggesting that! Pro tip, pal--a POTUS has to be a POTUS of ALL the people. Getting the perspective of the opposing team is NOT a CRIME. In fact, it's smart politics. Stop playing it up like it is more than what it is--it just makes you look bad.
In time, your fury will subside, and you'll have a decision to make--will you participate in history being made, or will you sit, fuming, on the sidelines, because a guy who realistically was a long shot on a good day, but gave it a good go, wasn't able to cut the mustard in the big leagues?
You can stew in your own juices and miss an opportunity to see the first woman POTUS get elected and continue and improve upon Obama's legacy, or you can harrumph, post nasty shit on DU, and make No Damn Difference to anyone, including yourself.
Sanders has basically shut it down. He's trying for a decent showing in CA, to make a point, but the reality is this--he's FIRING STAFF by the HUNDREDS. You probably need to start wrapping your head around the notion that IT's OVER. It was a good effort, but he's done.
Read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/28/us/politics/bernie-sanders-campaign.html?ref=politics&_r=0
Response to MADem (Reply #21)
Post removed
MADem
(135,425 posts)You are not deleting that ugliness, either--I'm saving that nasty remark in all its glory for posterity, so we know what you're made of!
75. what a load of bullshit
View profile
Who the fuck do you think you are to talk to someone like that?
Hillary will lose. Both sides hate her. And for good reason.
Here's a pro tip--don't mistake YOUR "hatred" as universal. You are not the pulse of the Great Democratic Nation.
Most of us see the Big Picture, and the Long View. Sorry you're having such a tough time of it, but yelling at me with bitter curses ain't gonna change a thing.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)fuck, fuck fuck fuck.
You underestimate the Hillary hate.
MADem
(135,425 posts)take back. Your angry POV is not shared by most voters. I know that's hard to accept, but it's the truth.
I suspect, sooner than you realize, that you'll be very sorry for this comment, too:
83. well you save all you want to. Here's a few more fucks that I don't give
fuck, fuck fuck fuck.
You underestimate the Hillary hate.
Do all the good you can....
For all the people you can...
For as long as you can....
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)go back to school, teach.
well you save all you want to. Here's a few more fucks that I don't give
fuck, fuck fuck fuck.
You underestimate the Hillary hate.
and now you are getting weird, so please go coach someone else.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The one "getting weird" is the one flinging the invective all over the place. And I'm not "coaching" you--I'm just telling you how it is.
2pooped2pop
87. who the fuck are you?
View profile
go back to school, teach.
well you save all you want to. Here's a few more fucks that I don't give
fuck, fuck fuck fuck.
You underestimate the Hillary hate.
and now you are getting weird, so please go coach someone else.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)that will not enable any of Bernie's revolution.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)would
a) vote for trump. Not going to happen, at least for the lefties. The independants.. theyve got their own deal going, cant speak for them
b) trust that Hillary would nominate non-rw judges, or at least ones that would "enable bernies revolution". And thats not something that I trust.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)quakerboy
(13,920 posts)Im quite sure of it.
And I'm sure you are wrong. Granted my sample size is small. But I have to assume that if I am on the fence, others are as well. I'm doing some soul searching. I believe Ive been a Democrat from the day I registered at age 18, though it might have been independent, and moving to Dem after the first election. I'm considering whether I can justify to myself voting for Hillary. Im not sure I can. And I am sure I am not the only one. As far as I can tell the independents dont bear much love for her. And we need their votes to keep the white house.
On edit. I never implied democrats will vote for trump. But depending on how things go with conventions and advertising, I can see a chunk of them staying home. Being on the fence, I can say with certainty that if Hillary makes the expected right turn for the GE, I'm out. And there are a lot of generally disaffected types in this country, center and right, who would have voted for Bernie, but will now vote either against Hillary or for Trump.
MADem
(135,425 posts)And a lot of them are RINOs who now have a reason to cross the aisle. Many are independents who understand what an important moment we're at, as a nation.
There are a lot of Republicans who will be motivated by hatred of All Things Trump, too (or All things Cruz, unlikely as that may be)--they'll "stay home" or cross over, with an eye on 2020, no doubt. For every "I'm staying home if it's not Bernie" non-voter, there will likely be three or more "I'm staying home/crossing over if it's Trump" denizens on the rightward end of the spectrum. I mean, let's not forget, the reason Sanders did not prevail is because he was unable to translate largely collegiate activism into actual votes.
I don't think any actual DEMOCRATS will stay home. DINOs might--but even they (if they have any sense) will come to understand that cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is a dumb idea.
There's a lot of anger right now--in time, it will subside and anyone who cares at all about the future of the country and the make up of the Supreme Court will come around. I don't buy the "Take my ball and go home" argument--if people want to do that, fine. They can absent themselves from the process, and miss out on being an active participant in one of the most historical events in our nation's history.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)Ive yet to be convinced that that factor will be enough.
And dont forget they have counterparts who definitely do NOT want to see a woman potus.
IF you are right, then I am wrong. But I think you are being Pollyanna about it. R's are masters of falling in line. Expecting them to break ranks even against someone as odious as Trump or Cruz seems overly optimistic to me. Especially when they can play off of the Clinton name. In my admittedly anecdotal personal experience, most of them never got over being trounced by Bill, and they like his wife even less.
scotus is one of the main reasons my vote is on the table. Why I am giving it a lot of deep thought, rather than making pronouncements of what I will and won't do. But I also have to consider for myself whether having a corporate moderate put on the court instead of a corporate righty is enough.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)can vote our conscience. There's no chance Hillary will take Alaska, plus we're only three electoral votes. I'll vote or not as I see fit.
MADem
(135,425 posts)If you want to stand on the sidelines, far be it from me to stop you. Just remember that you weren't there when she surprises the hell out of you.
It's not about "safe states" really. No state is safe anymore.
But do what you want.
My conscience says that Hillary Clinton will be a superb POTUS--and a lot of people agree with me.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)after living here for 41 years. A Democratic candidate for president hasn't won here since Johnson blew out Goldwater in 1964, and since Bernie won the caucus here by a greater majority than any other state besides Vermont, I think it's fair to say that Hillary won't stand much of a chance. Or any chance actually.
liberalnarb
(4,532 posts)Even the ones who say they will won't. This election is going to be terrible none-the-less
MADem
(135,425 posts)There are a few "woman card" scoffers who are in the Bros Before club.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/13/bernie-sanders-supporters-consider-donald-trump-no-hillary-clinton
egalitegirl
(362 posts)Can you please answer me and satisfy my curiosity? Among the various candidates in the race, which candidates are for the Iraq war and which candidates are opposed to the Iraq war?
msongs
(67,417 posts)military hardware for vermont
egalitegirl
(362 posts)You don't even know the positions of various candidates and only support Hillary because the only thing you have been told is she is a woman. This is the problem with the country. That is why you are unable to even distinguish between arms for military and arms used by police and civilians. Your post is extremely low information stuff.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Regime change doesn't happen with a picnic and a pretty please. And the F-35 is NOT "police hardware." Good grief.
And calling someone "low information" is--in case you didn't realize it--an ugly dog whistle.
I think you need to apologize, because it's clear that YOU "don't know the positions of various candidates."
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)If it was merely a lack of information I would feel sorry for them. It's the Rovian lies that are sickening.
artislife
(9,497 posts)Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)she's the poor little rich girl, who, in the baseball game of life, was born on 3rd base and thought she hit a triple. She has WASP GOP DNA, and all of the elite schooling and vacations at Martha's Vineyard haven't changed her. She's a greedy 1%er, and the truth is whatever she says it is, which is universally whatever benefits her.
How many millions are enough? She can't say, she's not done filling up the Brinks truck yet. Bernie has led a simple life of public service, and to even compare the two is laughable. The Party has chosen corporations over people, greed over charity, lies over honesty. Regardless of who wins this November, we are all in for a very difficult 4-8 years ahead. I suspect Hillary will initiate a party purge that would have made Josef Stalin queasy. Progressives will be rooted out and replaced by Wall Street & corporate shills. I don't think she'll be in a forgiving mood for anyone that opposed her on the Left. JMO.
puffy socks
(1,473 posts)Sanders supported Bill Clinton’s war on Serbia, voted for the 2001 Authorization Unilateral Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF), which pretty much allowed Bush to wage war wherever he wanted, backed Obama’s Libyan debacle and supports an expanded US role in the Syrian Civil War.
More problematic for the Senator in Birkenstocks is the little-known fact that Bernie Sanders himself voted twice in support of regime change in Iraq. In 1998 Sanders voted in favor of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which said: “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.”
Later that same year, Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.” These measures gave congressional backing for the CIA’s covert plan to overthrow the Hussein regime in Baghdad, as well as the tightening of an economic sanctions regime that may have killed as many as 500,000 Iraqi children. The resolution also gave the green light to Operation Desert Fox, a four-day long bombing campaign striking 100 targets throughout Iraq. The operation featured more than 300 bombing sorties and 350 ground-launched Tomahawk cruise missiles, several targeting Saddam Hussein himself.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/16/blood-traces-bernies-iraq-war-hypocrisy/
Even Hillary belatedly admitted that her Iraq war vote was a mistake. Bernie, however, has never apologized for his two votes endorsing the overthrow of Saddam. On the rare occasions when Sanders has been confronted about these votes, he has casually dismissed them as being “almost unanimous.”
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)http://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary-clinton-if-im-president-we-will-attack-iran/5460484
No amount of talk can erase her words.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)
moriah
(8,311 posts)... experiencing the disappointment I felt in 2008 when she lost. Especially when there are Bernie supporters out there who still haven't gotten to vote, but statistically it just doesn't look good.
And very sad to see a forum I joined eight years ago so fractured when I truly want to believe that DU's mission is a good one.
So if I'm celebrating.... it's bittersweet. Truly.
Joob
(1,065 posts)lancer78
(1,495 posts)to see a female president. My mom is 67 on friday and has COPD. She wants to see a female president before she dies.
moriah
(8,311 posts).... and if you're a gifted mindreader, I'd prefer you use it to analyze our GOP opponents.
moriah
(8,311 posts)I also had positive interactions with her office when she was my Senator briefly during my year living in NYC (from mid 2002-mid-2003).
I was there because my now ex-husband had gotten into a medical residency on a second pick -- he was a foreign medical graduate. We had gotten married before 9/11 and had our interview (in Fort Smith, AR), but his Adjustment of Status paperwork was mishandled because of lots of changes in the INS after 9/11, and AOS takes a lot of time anyway.
So we were coming up on a year since the interview, but no green card, and the stamp with work authorization expires after a year. I made multiple trips from NY to Arkansas to try to get it straightened out with little luck, so finally called her office. Part of our elected reps responsibilities are to help us when the government bureaucracy is not working, though few people realized it.
Within a week, he had his green card in the mail.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I enjoyed reading it.
peace13
(11,076 posts)I'm glad it worked out for you. I'm pretty sure we are going to be in for a rough ride though. I hope it was worth it. I know I won't forget this reasoning.
peace13
(11,076 posts)She is not the candidate that you voted for in 2008. Her SOS dealings that are tied to her Foundation and the other remaining legal questions made her an entirely different candidate this time. If you ignored that , you did so at all of our peril.
When Obama won you could feel disappointment but probably not uncertainty for the looming continued wars and global banking / corporate disasters. He was a stable candidate that said one thing to all audiences. Your candidate has a different approach. Trust me, if she does make it to the GE many will feel more than disappointed. I know that I will feel despair at the thought of more wars, more blood on my hands. I really can't imagine living through it again! Bittersweet...will have nothing on this
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I wanted to go in to this supporting my candidate, but having respect for my opponent. Basically I was expecting a good natured challenge, where my candidates ideas were just objectively better. Instead I got a shitty pissing match. Weaver and Devine made a personality cult around Sanders, and it went downhill from there.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)And thats a big part of why I expect you are going to have a harder time winning the GE than you think. Yall played dirty, But next you will be up against the Republican machine, and they have a lot more practice with playing dirty. Accusing them of doing what you are doing wrong won't really work, because they will have already done it to you first.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)The policy fell to the way side. They were more focused in having big rallies than getting out the vote. In many ways they ran an Obama style campaign when that was beneath Sanders' superior policy positions.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)And once the ball got rolling, Im not sure how else you deal with crowds to big for the venue.
But one thing I note is that I never heard Sanders stand down from the policy positions. People came to hear what he had to say, and they left convinced that he would do what he said. Thats why he went from an inevitable minor player whos name was known mostly to wonks and political groupies, who most assumed would be lucky to break 25% anywhere, to a candidate with a legitimate shot, albeit a long shot, at winning the nomination.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)but I am truly sad for the nation. I believe Bernie was our last realistic chance to change course as a nation. I see dangerous, angry populism as the way of the future, the best efforts of the left having failed to take hold. I see a strong likelihood that even if trump loses to Hillary (which I see as far from certain), a new trump type, with less of the bigotry but all the anger, danger, and idiocy, could easily come from a moderate right position, and sweep in with the weight of the conservative movement and the youth, and do a reagan redux, tossing our nations chance for real progress out the window for another 30 years. And I am not convinced we have the residual strength to survive that as anything like the same kind of nation we have been.
I'm one who hasn't gotten to vote yet. But its more than just statistics. To pull it out now, Bernie needs 80%+ in California. Thats just not going to happen. I will still vote for him. I will still phone bank for him. But to pretend he has a chance to win the election based on votes, is not realistic. And if he resorted to chicanery, he would lose his base, so thats out. The only way Hillary loses the primary at this point is if she were to somehow take herself out of the game.
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)candidates are the nominees.. clearly our system is broken.
I predict younger folks wont vote again because of their feeling of disfranchisement ..
the only reason Hillary won was because of a 'I'm on the winning team!' attitude .. its like a sports event for them..
id imagine the majority of them don't even know what bernies stances were because they had their ears plugged so hard when he spoke.. lol..
hell, I might not vote ... I know shell win the GE anyway..
George w bush kinda sealed the party winning for a while..
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Clinton is going to win because most Democrats prefer her to Sanders, and that's how democracy works.
2cannan
(344 posts)(tRUMP for tRump university) and the other under FBI investigation for various reasons. Yikes!
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)The overwhelming balance of informed, neutral opinion is that Clinton is more likely to beat Trump than not.
That's a lot less certainty than I would like - I certainly can't promise you that Trump won't be the next president.
But pretty much everyone worth listening to thinks that the odds favour Clinton, and a majority (although not such an overwhelming one) of informed opinion says that Clinton's odds will be better than Sanders' would have been.
Punkingal
(9,522 posts)peace13
(11,076 posts)...that you listen to!
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)I make a point of trying to read articles by people I disagree with.
Echo chamberism is one of the besetting sins of the age; I think it's probably one of the major factors in Sanders' and Trump's unexpected rise.
Robbins
(5,066 posts)clinton supporters now get clinton as nominee and 50% chance of trump being president next year.all so her highness can be first female nominee of political party.never mind she eather lies or pisses on what liberal/progressive democrats believe in.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)I was pretty negative about his chances, even while intending to vote for him when the opportunity arrived. Initially I expected he would be lucky to win vermont.
I will admit that with the recent run of 8 states, particularly WA, I did see a possible path to victory. It was never an easy path, and it was always against the odds, but it was viable, mathematically, given the some positive, but reasonably possible outcomes in the remaining primaries. Now it is not.
I wouldnt put more than 50/50 on TvH. I wouldnt even put more than 50/50 on TvOther R's at the convention. But I do not see love for hillary out there. And we need more than a bare majority of the voting democrats to win a GE. I am not convinced it will be there.
And I have as yet to see a person make what I would consider a valid argument that Clintons odds are better than Sanders in the GE. Certainly I have as yet to see anyone with an "informed neutral" position make that argument on based on anything other than a glorified, convoluted version of "name recognition".
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Most gamblers think the odds are more like 3 to 1 than 1 to 1.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)That's actually the best argument for her that anyone has yet made to me.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)tho not exactly original.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It's going to be a hard fought battle in the general. I feel we are in a great position to prevail. Please keep an open mind. I understand many wanted a different outcome. We would love for you to vote for Clinton in the GE. In your own words, "a Trump Presidency would be a disaster."
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)I'm waiting for someone to convince me a Clinton presidency wouldn't also be a disaster.
I will say this.. If trump gets aced out at their convention, and they run Cruz... Hillary will have my vote.
Stuckinthebush
(10,845 posts)Trump can't be allowed near the White House and we all appreciate your willingness to join together in that important fight. On to the General!
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)... bullshit posts like yours being banned here.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)griffi94
(3,733 posts)Hillary did poison their unicorn.
Most of them will come around.
The ones that don't weren't ever going to support anybody
but Bernie anyway.
Best to just let them go.
They were never Democrats in any case.
And like you I'm looking forward to DU going to GE footing
so we don't have to see 50 OPs a day slagging our nominee
with RW talking points.
peace13
(11,076 posts)My best to you in enticing folks to join you. Skinner will be eating bean soup by the time you guys get done culling the herd!
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)and stuff like that. Your vote will help do that. I hope you'll help, anyhow.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)destroys the purity of the arguments that have been rammed down our throats for the past year.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)was really a supporter, I think. Imagine that...
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)peace13
(11,076 posts)....I will say this as carefully as possible. Some things seem equal. Maybe not in your eyes but in the eyes of others. I say this, not out of anger but deep concern.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)maybe a world under Bernie would be the best, but I'll take Hillary over any republican asswipe anytime.
peace13
(11,076 posts)quakerboy
(13,920 posts)I said I am not convinced Hillary can win the GE.
Thats not the same as letting someone like trump win.
Im not convinced the 49rs can win the super bowl next year. That doesn't mean that I am letting the Saints win. Neither is, quite frankly, anything I have power over. As the primary has demonstrated.
peace13
(11,076 posts)Ignoring the facts and getting us in this position and now we can fix this by voting your way. Oh boy. The Hill people just need to get busy and get some kind of message together that will make sense to the people. Not the moving target, say anything game. It is a problem created by people other than Sanders backers. The solution will not be balanced on the backs of Bernie voters.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I don't matter much. It's a great mass of other people who will suffer terribly under a Republican administration with a Republican Congress. Don't worry about me. Worry about others.
Do as you will, of course. It probably wont matter much. Hillary will win, with or without your vote. So, never mind. Really.
peace13
(11,076 posts)You were a brave drum major for quite some time. If this fails it is on the Clinton supporters. Not just getting her elected but keeping her real after she gets there. Nothing she has said makes me think that the great mass of which you speak will fair any better under her. History or rather her story tells it all. This mess is to be cleaned by the folks who made it. You may want to get Hill to address those masses for whom you have such concern for! Also, have her lay out a plan to pay for the wars she has already been pressing for!
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)
peace13
(11,076 posts)People trying to twist the arms of folks who wanted nothing to do with her. Probably better figure out how to get the message out. It sure as $ell isn't gonna come from a group who has been saying all along that this was a bad idea.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)her anyway is sufficient unto the day? What you folks with the sparkly, snarkly bullshit have done is limited my involvement to filling out a ballot. The idea of volunteering to be in a room full of the sort of people I see supporting her here or the sort of people she panders to with her 'Reagan was a hero' speeches is not appealing to me. I'm not a Reagan Democrat, I don't like mean vindictive and bigoted politics.
So no money, no effort, no public stake of my own reputation with hers. Just not going to happen.. I feel far less connection to this Party than I ever have in the past. Years of effort and for what? To hear her say Reagan was the hero of the AIDS era and then be forced to vote for that because Democrats don't give a shit, still.
Whatever. Hope her cohort is able to do all the work because I do not go where I am held in contempt. Not going to be working with the sort of people I see boosting her here, antisemitic and homophobic and just generally mean of spirit.
Not what I'm into. She's so very much not Obama. He got my whole tool box. She gets one slash of a pen in Nov.
Kittycat
(10,493 posts)I'm working down ballot to cripple that office. republican and republican life will both find us in more wars, and beholden to more monied interests. All we can do now is limit it as best we can by electing real progressives where laws are made, and locally where they are implemented.
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)
LexVegas
(6,067 posts)peace13
(11,076 posts)This is going to require huge people power and a campaign trail with large crowd numbers. It will be a different effort for sure if she is to succeed.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)so I'm not that worried. She has the organization and the funding. She should be just fine with the GE campaign. I'm sure she'd appreciate your concern, though. Maybe you could volunteer and lend her a hand in campaign strategizing. Let me know if you need her number or address.
peace13
(11,076 posts)I know what it takes as you do! I know what commitment is. The GE is the time to get real not pretend that the hard work is done. As far as the funding goes........enough said. My best to you. I am sure that it will be awesome!
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)precinct during GE campaigns. I knock on every door, and some more than once. I try to talk to all 2300 or so registered voters in my precinct and try to register those who aren't. That's what I do these days. I'm not up to much else, really. But canvassing is fun, and I get to meet all my neighbors. I'll be taking my old beagle/basset mix with me this year. People really like him and it will be a good way to maybe talk to some people I haven't talked to yet. I walk the old guy around the neighborhood daily, and people recognize him, even if they don't recognize me.
I'll be working to present Hillary Clinton and all the other Democrats on the ballot. We get about a 65% turnout in presidential years, and the precinct reliably votes over 60% for Democrats. I think it's a great precinct.
peace13
(11,076 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)quakerboy
(13,920 posts)This thread has not helped. I guess if i had been thinking, I would have known it wouldn't. But I was tired. Its been a very tough week, and I got home, and I saw the primary results, and I updated my spreadsheet, and I posted.
Squinch
(50,955 posts)But, really, we won't.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)Im nothing, really.
Its the independents yall need to be thinking off. And maybe the future of the party. It would suck to lose a generation or three.
Squinch
(50,955 posts)
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)Blame yourself.
Like I said, It ain't me you gotta worry about.
randome
(34,845 posts)Take all that together and you come away with pretty clear evidence that over the course of the Democratic primary young voters have become more attached to progressive politics and the Democratic party. One read of this is that the primary process itself - as divisive as it has sometimes seemed - has deepened young voters' identification with the Democratic party.
And since you were wrong about Sanders winning, you're probably wrong about Trump, too, doesn't that seem possible?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)I don't believe Ive said Sanders was anything but a long shot for the primary. Even to my SO who is a major Bernie volunteer and refuses to hear it.
And now I'm saying I think Hillary is no better than 50/50 for the GE. I suspect that what I would call "dirty tricks" will be much less effective there, as the R's have more practice in their use.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)Ticket by actually selecting them on the ballot or leaving the presidential slot empty which is the same ensures ones pride is just holding them back from ensuring any change for the better..
If the people want a revolution, put down the damn I-Phones etc. and march in the streets regardless if Sanders or Clinton wins, scream, shout, hell even throw confetti if you must be confrontational but....
Ending it all by voting for the proven Not For The People Party GOP is like shooting yourself in the foot and bring unable to continue marching on...that's just backing down from the fight I thought some wanted....
JMO mind you..
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)Sorry, I'm not going to bite for the lesser of two evils. I will select a progressive candidate on my ballot or leave it blank. I will not provide aid and comfort to the very forces bent on destroying me .... Wall Street, Multi-nationals, MegaBanks, the Health Insurance robber barons, the military-industrial complex, Big Oil, etc...
It was Hillary who took that dirty money. Don't lay this on me or other progressives who actually have a moral objection to corporatism. If she wants the support of progressives, she can start by disavowing her corporate owners and returning the piles of blood money.
Let me know when that happens... I'm not holding my breath.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)To pretend and I ddo mean the word pretend that by not voting your morals stay intact is nothing short of fantasy...I wonder at your age,
I hope your young, you have passion for fairness and for justice, and you have the time and energy not all of us have, we need you, you need us even if you don't believe you need anyone, whoever holds that office has the ability to help in the fight for justice to prevail, you may not trust her, I'm not sure I do, nor do I trust Sanders completely, very few if any person is truly trustworthy of another's desires IMPO..its just not what history proves something we are capable of but we can find a common cause..
A real plan is needed, not one born out of uncontrolled anger, President Obama said in the beginning, I Cannot Do It Alone, I'm going to need everyone involved, we failed him in my opinion, not he us, he's not a God just a man, nor are Sanders or Clinton deities, they are human and humanity needs each other in order to survive and move forward, we are not without flaws or weaknesses, none of us.
It's a small small world and we have such a short time to help make things better, but if you believe we can then we will, but it won't be easy, it never is.
Matt_R
(456 posts)Obama has done well, but when he took single payer off the negotiation table, we found out he was bought and paid for. I did not vote for a centrist, insurance corp, bank corp, bought and paid for candidate. I voted for HOPE and CHANGE.
When EVERY bill was held back, and then watered down because we did not have 60 votes in the senate, we had no way to follow Obama's "I Cannot Do It Alone, I'm going to need everyone involved" he never gave us the chance to march in the streets, to demand the repubs pass single payer health care.
Obama never gave us the chance, he negotiated our futures away, that is why we lost seats in 2010 and 2014 we did not have a solid leader.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)into another sphere where we found ourselves overwhelmed enough to pretty much stand in line, even if that line was filled with the sound of grumbling it never became enough to shatter the illusion that once again the wheels were turning in the wrong direction....
People speak of a revolution, but a revolution needs more than a heroic leader, it needs an army willing to continue the march forward and not just with words, not any more, the powers that control have fortified themselves quite safely from the grumbling of the people...
How much of your time and energy are you willing to give, and will you have the numbers able and I do mean the word able to do the same...
The Internet will not ensure a win, only the people can in the streets, that is if they quit fighting each other long enough to be able come together as they will surely need to do...
They own the media, the law, the message and the government....what will one person do to take it back...
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)My vote for Hillary. or not. Will be determined by her stated policy's and whether I can convince myself to trust her intent to actually accomplish those policies.
I will not vote for a Republican. Never going to happen.
But what I can tell you from phonebanking is that there are a lot of middle age or older white males who are fed up with all of it, and they seem to generally be on the fence between Bernie and Trump. And a lot of younger folks who are on the fence between Bernie and staying home. The base reasoning is about the same, though the specifics vary. But it comes down to the distrust of money in politics. The bulk of the Democratic party has come out for Hillary. The Base of the Republicans will do the same for their candidate. Neither of these is unexpected, and should be counted on to be repeated in the GE. Its what everyone else will do that is of concern. that is where the election will actually be won or lost, I expect.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)anything besides the illegals he uses for his building projects,
I know people who are praising trump, the truth is, all those who have threatened to punch in trump are for the most part, not completely racist, bigoted, uneducated in politics, both southern and northern, the fears towards poor people are basic untruths, they believe whatever and whoever tells them things that helps lessen this irrational fears.
These are hard working, people you would like if you did not know thier politics which brings out the hateful rhetoric....
I've actually heard from some die hard conservative Texans if trump does not win, Bernie would have to do, not sure why since they hate poor people and he's for the poor, I guess they hate government...
It takes all kinds
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)From the calls I have made and the people I have talked with, the weirdness where people are on the fence between Bernie and trump seems to center around the idea that these are the only candidates we have seen in quite some time who can not be purchased. The belief in the corruption of politicians runs deep in the US, but different demographics seem to take that ball and run in different directions with it.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)Showman, he's part of the group that have for years happily paid off politicians which aid in the legal apparent shadowy crimes far far too many of those in high positions engage in refusing for years how this onside trading of whatever has hurt the average citizen....
Even when you prove them wrong in some of thier attempts to elevate this horrific persons status they looked dumbfounded but continue to believe what makes them feel better, pretty strange when you take this all in, a brain malfunction? Was all I could come up with...
brewens
(13,595 posts)indicted, she should bow out. Bernie doesn't want to be like a Navy Seal trainee that rings the bell and quits five minutes before Hell Week is over.
He has a lot better reason for doing so that candidates we have seen in the past.
deathrind
(1,786 posts)Is what HRC's nomination is really all about it seems.
Because her position on issues such as healthcare /economy /environment /Wall Street /war etc are all contrary to what the Democratic Party has held as its platform for the half century I have been a member of it. I am simply amazed and slightly horrified at how easily these long held values were/are swept to the side in the name of "making history"...
dubyadiprecession
(5,714 posts)presidency. Neither one can connect with minority voters of which they both lose by huge (i mean Huge) margins. The white vote just isn't enough anymore.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)manages to implement its voter suppression attempts.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Never gets old.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)
DrDan
(20,411 posts)
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)We are going to kick Trumps ass.
annavictorious
(934 posts)so I know how you feel. However, if Sanders supporters vote for Trump or stay home in November and Trump wins, they'll be partially responsible. You're not allowed to blame soneone else for you're vengeful action.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)Voting for trump isnt an option.
If chose not to vote for Hillary, and Trump wins my state, then I will be partially responsible. The weight of that will be mine to deal with.
At the same time, I dont owe Hillary my vote. I have no need for vengeance, and would not vote against her based on that. I wont deny there are bernie voters out there who might. I am not one of them. But I need to be convinced, my vote needs to be earned. For myself, I mainly need to be convinced that I can trust her to enact policies that will matter. If she cant convince me of that, thats on her. And on those who handed her the nomination. And thats the weight you all get to bear. Or maybe she will win easily, and all of it becomes moot.
lanlady
(7,134 posts)Hillary beats Trump and Cruz in all polls. She dominates with every demographic group except white males. Even most millennials say they would vote for her.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Beacool
(30,250 posts)
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)But the congratulations to the supporters of the primary winner were genuine. Yall did enough to get her the nomination.
