Why is Bernie running to the convention a problem?

[Separation]

I'm a Sanders supporter. I do not engage in the Clinton-Sanders fighting. Both sides doing this are no better than the Republicans that do this.

However, why is it so bad if Sanders keeps running until the convention? There are states that have not even voted yet. Are these people not allowed to voice their choice? With Sanders still running, his narrative will still be heard all the way to the convention and hopefully further on. This is not a bad thing.

[Recursion]

1. When Clinton suggested it 8 years ago, she was excoriated by the pundits

When Sanders, who is trailing by more than Clinton ever trailed Obama, suggests it, the pundits seem to agree that's his right. Yes, I'm pretty sure that's gendered.

[Separation]

5. ?

So you think that him running to the convention is somehow gender biased? If I got that wrong I apologize. My question to that (if indeed that is your opinion) is what exactly does the last election have to do with this one?

I didn't follow the last election like this one.

[Recursion]

6. No, I'm saying the reaction to it is

Compared to the reaction when Clinton suggested the same thing 8 years ago.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. Okay, then, serious question on that:

What specific issues was or would have Hillary Clinton and her campaign been carrying to the Convention in 2008 as distinguished from those of Barack Obama, other than "I'm Hillary Clinton"?

Sanders, the argument is at least, is continuing to push for certain issues to be included in our party's ideological presentation in Philadelphia.

Like, me personally, I'd like whatever sort of acknowledgement our platform makes (if any) to the increasingly relevant issue of marijuana legalization, to be reflective of the majority of Americans - and CLEAR majority of Democrats- who support it, as well as our leaders like not just Bernie Sanders, but Senator Merkeley, Rep. Blumenauer, CA Lt. Gov. Newsom, etc. .. and NOT the perspective of members of our party who support putting recreational and medical marijuana users in prison, like Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

So. Back to 2008, what specific positions or ideological perspective as distinct from Obama's, would Hillary have been interested in advancing into the convention?

[Habibi]

32. Very good question!

I'm interested in hearing the answer, if there is one.

[ieoeja]

44. Maybe the reaction is different because of the results.

She ran up to the very end in 2008, and Obama still won the general election handily. Maybe they learned from that experience that it is no biggie.

[joshcryer]

42. Clinton and Obama's were effectively the same.

Sanders has different policies.

[scscholar]

54. This. It' unfair for him to do...

what his kind complained about so hard. So hard.

[cliffordu]

2. Well, I'd say it's because

The Hillary camp believes they can win without the left.
We are an unpleasant reminder of true Democratic values, and they, as third way, big business, endless war, TPP supporters who's lives seem to be just fine the way they are. They don't need to be reminded of what the Democratic Party used to be:

Franklin Roosevelt.
The Kennedys
Lyndon Johnson
Jimmy Carter

Unions and separation of church and state.
A strong social safety net.

These new 'democrats' are foreign to me.

She's still a Goldwater girl, and we are the poorer for it.
Flame on.

[Separation]

8. I think we are a dying breed sadly.

I agree with your description of the New Democratic Party. I feel like I am being pushed waaaay left of center. I'm not sure if I'm changing or it's the Democratic Party is leaving me?

To add to that thought, most of my friends are republicans. It's funny to hear them say the same thing. Republican Party was leaving them as well. They say that the party is trying to push the way to the right. Most just want to slim the .gov down and stop all the ridiculous spending.

[Joe the Revelator]

9. The party is leaving you.

And me as well.

[Separation]

12. It is sad

I remember thinking that democrats stood for anti war, keep the banks and Wall Street in check, making sure that minorities in this country weren't being subjected to draconian laws. I remember being proud of being a democrat.

I had high hopes when Obama was elected. Maybe to high it seems now. When they say that the reason why Hillary is doing so well with certain democrats is because she will continue with Obamas policies, and they say this like it's supposed to be a good thing. That is just.. I dunno. I still have hopes, they just aren't as high anymore. 😐

[CajunBlazer]

13. By all accounts the Democratic Party has drifted to the left

though not as much as the Republic party has shifted dramatically to the right. Hence all of the partisan politics.

If you think that the party is leaving your, you consider whether you have either shifted further to the left more than the party has or that you never really understood where the actual ideological center of the party was located and you are now just starting to understand it.

Obviously Hillary positions are more palatable to the Democratic Party base than Sanders's positions because she was much more likely to win closed primaries when only Democrats were allowed to vote.

[Joe the Revelator]

19. Winning closed primaries would mean that the party has drifted further right....

....then a large number of dems and a large majority of independents.

[Yurovsky]

33. I think the big money just makes it seem that way...

on both the Left & Right, it's whomever has the $$$ that gets the microphone. I believe a majority of Americans want the same things. Jobs that pay a living wage. Good schools and affordable healthcare. A clean environment and equality for all citizens. Peace as a foreign policy.

But the big money interests behind the GOP and, sadly, the Clinton campaign, are driven by Wall Street & the Military-Industrial complex. Flag this, ban me, whatever, the truth is the truth. You take dirty money, you're dirty.

[CajunBlazer]

10. Wrong - this is my documentation, where is yours.

Your problem is your political view which seem to to the left of Bernie Sanders. You view anyone to your right to be a conservative. Here is a more rational view.

From FiveThirtyEight: Hillary Clinton Was Liberal. Hillary Clinton Is Liberal.

Clinton was one of the most liberal members during her time in the Senate. According to an analysis of roll call votes by Voteview, Clinton’s record was more liberal than 70 percent of Democrats in her final term in the Senate. She was more liberal than 85 percent of all members. Her 2008 rival in the Democratic presidential primary, Barack Obama, was nearby with a record more liberal than 82 percent of all members — he was not more liberal than Clinton.

[cliffordu]

16. Your cut 'n paste example

Doesn't say what 'Liberal' is.

Might be the kind of platforms and programs the people I listed in my original reply espoused, maybe not.
Maybe you don't know.
If my believing that New Deal programs need to be implemented again with a return to the 90% tax on the upper one half of one percent, the DOD gutted and neutered makes me left of Sanders, so be it.

[CajunBlazer]

35. You don't get to universally decide what liberalism is

[cliffordu]

55. It sounds better when you say

"You aren't the boss of me"

[Separation]

18. She also has a record being Secretary of State

Arab Spring cluster fuck, reaching out to the Muslim Brother hood, calling Assad a "reformer", her relationship with Goldman Sachs and Wall Street. Her support of the business run prison systems. I'm sorry, I will personally apologize to you if she becomes a great president. I hope, if she is elected, becomes a beacon of hope to the world.

I had the same hope when Obama was elected as well though.

[CajunBlazer]

36. Do you think this is the time to mindlessly recite GOP talking points?

[Yurovsky]

45. I don't think most republicans oppose what Wall Street/Goldman Sachs et al does...

in fact, I think they either profit from it, or are so fucking stupid they've been conned into thinking they profit from it. But even some on the right are waking up to the screwing they're taking from the 1%. Yes, the same 1% that bankrolled HRC's campaign.

Bernie showed anyone willing to observe that you can raise money from average people who care, and that you don't have to sell out to the high bidder. Hillary took the big money short cut. You may be fine with that. I'm not, nor will I be. Ever.

[CajunBlazer]

46. BS and You haven't heard Trump lately have you

Maybe he can be your future candidate

[Yurovsky]

57. Who do you think funds his real estate ventures?

You don't think he writes a personal check, do you?

His tough talk on Wall Street is about as believable as Hillary's. Both are beholden to Wall Street, Trump via his business dealings and Hillary through her campaign fundraising and CGI extortion racket.

IDK, maybe you are think Wall Street is on your side. I sure as hell know those bastards aren't on mine. But Hillary is undeniably linked to them, financially, politically, and socially (she & Bill like to hobnob with the super-rich...). But perhaps it's all good with you... I prefer my former Presidents & their spouses to serve others (a la Jimmy & Rosalyn Carter) rather than themselves. And I prefer my presidential candidates to fight for people, not corporations and Wall Street crooks.

To each his own...

[Samantha]

20. I have never known a true liberal who was a war hawk (eom)

Last edited Wed Apr 27, 2016, 01:13 PM - Edit history (1)

[JaneyVee]

41. FDR, Truman, LBJ, et al.

[CajunBlazer]

47. He obviously didn't do well in History class

[cliffordu]

51. Funny.

FDR entered WWII late, Truman ended it and got talked into Korea by McArthur and the anti-commie hysterics, LBJ inherited Vietnam from Kennedy, who wanted to post no more than a few thousand advisors.....LBJ's grief over Vietnam drove him to refuse a second term....
Yeah, Warhawks all.

NONE called for the overthrow of established governments, none acted at the behest of the war industry, the perpetual fighting for oil and profit......

What is the current Democratic Party leader's end game in the Middle East? Where is the 'victory'?

Hint: there is none. This will go on forever.

[jfern]

24. 538 is full of shit

[CajunBlazer]

37. I've noticed that your opinion of an organization does not depend...

....on whether the views expressed are fact based, but whether the facts expressed build up Sanders or are critical of Hillary. Therefore you opinion is full of .....

[jfern]

59. 538 is a joke that thought that Trump had 0 chance

[CajunBlazer]

61. Nothing is perfect, but 538 called all 5 primaries yesterday right on the nose

You know, the primaries where Sanders had is ass handed to him on a silver patter.

[jfern]

64. 538 was super sure Hillary would win Michigan, so whatever

[CajunBlazer]

68. No the polls were super sure that Clinton would take Michigan...

.... 538 just analyzed the polls. Anyway, 45 correct calls out of 46 isn't bad.

I really feel sorry for y'all on the Michigan deal. It gave you the false hope that many of the other polls would be wrong as well. That's a cruel that fate treated y'all like that.

[jfern]

69. LOL, Michigan wasn't the only state the polls were epically wrong in

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-minnesota-democratic-presidential-caucus

[CajunBlazer]

70. Wow, you're right....Good catch....

Two polls taken 15 months and 7 weeks in advance of Minnesota's caucus were wrong. Imagine that. Good catch, but Nate Silver didn't call that one because there wasn't enough polling information.

[jfern]

72. They weren't just sort of wrong, they were really wrong.

Also, there was some poll in Illinois that was about 40 points off not too long before the election.

[StevieM]

14. President Carter was a fairly conservative Democrat.

That's why Ted Kennedy ran against him.

He does seem to have grown more liberal since leaving office.

And I think you should look up the policies that Barry Goldwater stood for. They are incredibly to the right of Bill Clinton, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.

[cliffordu]

17. I know about Goldwater.

When democratic candidates for office glibly offer up more war as a 'solution' to the Middle East, I can hear his cackle.

'We came, we saw, he died'

[CajunBlazer]

38. When you stand to the extreme left, everyone to your right looks like a conservative

[cliffordu]

52. Why, bless your little heart.

[Kittycat]

31. Yes, for these reasons. To fight for party values.

[msongs]

3. he should keep running and spending money to help the economy nt

[CajunBlazer]

4. He is more than welcomed to continue running through the convention

However, Bernie has signaled his pivot towards continuing push his issues and win delegates to gain the leverage he will need to have a hand in shaping the platform. I don't think you will see the direct attacks on Hillary from this point on.

Normally about this time in a race when the two campaigns start discussing the the platform and ways to unite party.

[Separation]

7. +1

I hope that is the case. The continuing mudslinging isn't going to help the democratic run. I hope he keeps pushing his ideas and shaping the future like you said.

[CajunBlazer]

11. We actually agree on something

Go figure

[Demsrule86]

22. As long as he is in the race

In my opinion ...every day, damages our chances in the general. The platform if we lose is meaningless.

[Jim Lane]

48. I appreciate your comment but it is not the view of all Clinton supporters.

Right here on DU, right here in GD-P, you can find people calling for Sanders to stop campaigning.

[CajunBlazer]

50. He will not stop campaigning because he feel he would let down people like you

And that's understandable. Sanders has signaled that he is returning to an issues centered campaign and continue to try to accumulate as many delegates as he can so he can fight for a place at the platform table. I think that Clinton can accommodate him on a number of issues in the platform without endangering her chances in the general election and will graciously do so.

Bernie has essentially, but not overtly, signaled that he will cease attacking Clinton personally because to do so would not aid him in desire to influence the platform. would hurt Hillary in the GE, and would hinder efforts to unite his supporters with Hillary's in an effort to defeat Trump or possibly Cruz. I am positive that Bernie would not like to see a Republican in the White House.

Other Hillary supporters are tired of Bernie's tone here lately and what you are seeing is a natural result of that. If Bernie pivots as he has signaled he will do, I think you will see many Hillary supporters change their opinions about Bernie remaining in the race.

[The Second Stone]

15. Sanders staying in the race and having his name placed in nomination is not a problem

and never has been. He has personally contributed to the race. What is a small problem are a band of brothers (the bros) who will stay at home or vote for someone other than Clinton (even Trump) in the hopes that they can say "I told you so". They have always been a minority of Sanders supporters, but a very vocal minority that claim that Clinton is evil and corrupt and a criminal. They are going to continue until Sanders is a lot clearer that he is going to support the eventual nominee. I've been really offended at the lies about Clinton being a criminal. If Hillary Clinton were a criminal, sometime in the past 24 years the Republicans would have made sure she was indicted, like they did with as many of their enemies as they could. She is the most heavily scrutinized candidate in our country's history.

[JoePhilly]

28. + 1

[mythology]

21. It's not

I think it's a hold over from the idea that a prolonged primary hurts the eventual nominee, but I'm not sure that there was ever any real evidence of that. It certainly didn't hurt Obama in 2008.

If Sanders wants to remain in the race, he should feel free to do so. His supporters should feel free to support him in the primary.

[Demsrule86]

23. Really

Kennedy helped carter lose and ushered in Regan.

[Proud Public Servant]

26. I think it depends on how he does it

Like you, I'm a Sanders supporter who has not engaged in the Sanders-Clinton fighting here on DU or elsewhere. Here's my $0.02:

If Sanders continues running and returns to his original strategy of staying positive and promoting his core message and ideas, that's great. The party sorely needs his point of view and the enthusiasm of his followers.

But, if he continues attacking Hillary, who (I'm sorry to say) is now clearly the presumptive nominee, that's unhelpful and unacceptable.

[firebrand80]

27. Theres a difference between

Stating in until all the votes are counted and staying in until the convention.

There are several weeks between the final primaries and the convention. After he loses the PDs, the only thing left to do would be to convince the SDs to overturn the will of the voters.

That would be, IMO, very hypocritical and even more unlikely. It would also feed the narrative that the party is breaking apart, which I don't think is true.

[ChiciB1]

29. THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS FRACTURED...

MONEY has won again and THE PEOPLE of this country ARE seeing it. It's just a matter of time, but I've made TWO decisions now. One I've already stated many times before, I've leaving THIS Democratic Party after I vote.

The other decision I WON'T print here.

[CajunBlazer]

39. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out

[mmonk]

30. The tent is two sizes too small.

[MadBadger]

34. What you are talking about isn't running to the convention

I have no problem with that. I would if he continued to lobby super delegates or pledged delegates after all states have voted.

[MineralMan]

40. Both names will still be on every state's ballot.

Everyone will be able to vote for their preferred candidate. So, it's no problem at all. How much he campaigns and how he campaigns is up to Bernie Sanders to decide.

The votes in the remaining primaries will still be counted and delegates assigned proportionally to those results.

I guess I don't see the problem, but I suspect that Senator Sanders will scale back the number of appearances he makes before those primaries. I also imagine that he'll end most divisive rhetoric regarding Hillary Clinton. I hope that his supporters will take their cue from him.

Bottom line is that Hillary Clinton will be the nominee. That's quite clear at this point. She will go to the convention with the majority of pledged delegates and those superdelegates who have stated their support for her will cast their votes for her, as well.

Looks to me like it will be Hillary Clinton running against Donald Trump in the General Election. I know who I'll be voting for, and it sure as Hell isn't The Donald. Look at the differences between the two candidates' positions, and the decision is simple and clear.

On to the General Election! Time to start GOTV efforts.

[Capt. Obvious]

43. Supposedly it's bad because there's deep and genuine concern

over Sanders supporters donating money.

Or so I used to see on this board.

[Orsino]

49. For a few people it's not enough to see a beloved figure win.

They must see someone else lose and hope that supporters of other candidates have a sad, and that everyone who was ever mean to them is SORRY.

The thought of the coming compromises at the convention will be anathema to such a mindset.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. He might say something that's beyond Hillary's CYA capabilities.

[bvf]

56. Because it's a constant reminder

to Clinton supporters that they've been backing a candidate who will give us a few thousand more dead troops, a further enriched 1%, and a rightward "steady as she goes." The Democratic party is on life support, and their hands are all on the plug.

No mystery there.

[Demsrule86]

58. It puts the general at risk

Ted Kennedy did that in 80, and Ronald Reagan was the result...bad idea.

[bigwillq]

60. It's not. All candidates should stay in until the convention

if another candidate has not officially clinched.

Bernie should stay all in.
Same for Cruz and Kasich on the other side.

[runaway hero]

62. Clinton needs time to regroup

Raise money and practice debates. Bernie running forces her to waste money critically needed for the general election.

[artislife]

63. Ha!

[winter is coming]

65. The election is SIX MONTHS from now. If she needs that much additional

debate practice--or is having trouble raising money--maybe it's time to look elsewhere.

[runaway hero]

66. Trump is running a campaign on a profit.

She needs money. Bernie continuing to run is wasting money.

[winter is coming]

67. If Hillary can't persuade donors to support her, that's on her.

She's been the frontrunner from the get-go and is widely known. If she's having trouble raising money, pushing Sanders out of the race isn't magically going to fix her problems. If the people donating to Bernie wanted to donate to Clinton, they could have been doing it all along, and are free to do so now.

Many DUers have been saying for months that even if they end up holding their noses long enough to vote for Hillary, they wouldn't donate time or money to her campaign. I see no reason to believe they didn't mean what they were saying.

[Red Mountain]

71. This is gonna be a hell of a fight....

.....for the soul of the Democratic party.

Who are we? Where do we want to go?