"Laugh about it, shout about it, when you've got to choose, every way you look at it you lose."

[reformist2]

Immortal words. The world can never thank you enough for them, Paul Simon. Without even spelling it out, we all know what he was singing about. And if it comes down to Hillary vs. Trump, this is how I will feel, along with the majority of Americans. Maybe someday, not to far in the future, the people will stop voting for all these obviously bought-and-paid-for candidates. Please people, wake up, wise up, and please do it soon.

[Trust Buster]

1. I think Hillary will be an excellent president.

[JonLeibowitz]

2. I think Hillary would be a disaster on the 1st and 4th amendments. Do you disagree?

[wyldwolf]

4. I disagree.

[JonLeibowitz]

7. This despite

1) voting for the PATRIOT act twice

2) Sponsoring the Flag Protection Act of 2005

3) Supporting efforts to limit encryption

4) Dismissing critics of said action with "You’re going to hear all of the usual complaints, you know, freedom of speech, et cetera..."

?

Interesting.

[JaneyVee]

9. Bernie...

Voted to deregulate Wall Street, voted for gun industry, voted against immigration, voted against rescuing the US economy, against rescuing auto industry, and voted for more wars and war funding than any candidate on both sides.

[JonLeibowitz]

12. You must be lost. None of that has to do with the present conversation.

Say Hi to Brock for me!

[wyldwolf]

10. How does any of that show what you claim?

Mainly, she'd be a 'disaster for the 1st and 4th amendments."

[JonLeibowitz]

11. The Patriot act is a violation of the 4th amendment (mass surveillance)

and limiting the encryption I can use is a limit on what I can say (whether I can choose to encrypt it or not), as well as on my ability to protect myself from encroachments on the 4th.

Criminalizing the burning of the American Flag is a limitation on free speech.

[wyldwolf]

14. You haven't made your case

You wrote in the future tense - tell us just how far you can see into the future?

1. Senator Russ Feingold of Wisconsin was the only senator who voted against the Patriot Act on October 24, of 2001. That means Democrats like Joe Biden, Barbara Boxer, and Paul Wellstone also voted for it.

2. "limiting the encryption I can use is a limit on what I can say" - no it isn't.

3. According to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, the Flag Protection Act of 2005 was summarized as such:

Amends the federal criminal code to revise provisions regarding desecration of the flag to prohibit: destroying or damaging a U.S. flag with the primary purpose and intent to incite or produce imminent violence or a breach of the peace; or stealing or knowingly converting the use of a U.S. flag either belonging to the United States or on lands reserved for the United States and intentionally destroying or damaging that flag.

The bill's language was designed so as to prohibit the desecration of a flag when the intent was found to be a threat to public safety, the intention being that it would therefore not violate the First Amendment and not be declared unconstitutional.

[JonLeibowitz]

16. ...

1) So let me see if I understand this, because 99 senators made a poor decision to vote for the PATRIOT act, it legitimizes her vote? Nonsense, it was still a garbage vote that perfectly captures her values. I notice you said the senate, why limit us to there? Look to the House of Representatives:

Legislative action was also undertaken by Bernie Sanders (I-VT), Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), John Conyers Jr., Clement Leroy Otter (R-ID) and Ron Paul. They proposed an amendment to the Commerce, Justice, State Appropriations Bill of 2005 which would cut off funding to the Department of Justice for searches conducted under section 215.[81] The amendment initially failed to pass the House with a tie vote, 210–210.[82] Although the original vote came down in favor of the amendment, the vote was held open and several House members were persuaded to change their votes.[83] However, on June 15, 2005 they made a second attempt to limit section 215 searches in an amendment to another House appropriations bill[84] and this time it passed with a vote of 238-187 in favor of the Sanders amendment.[85]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Patriot_Act

Funny how Sanders keeps popping up on the right side of history. Is that what we call judgement?

2. Yes, limiting what encryption I can use is most definitely freedom of speech. Your dismissal of the reality doesn't change the fact. Maybe try to explain why limiting what I can say in the privacy of my home is not a limit on free speech?

3. Your quote perfectly states why it is a horrific infringement on free speech:

destroying or damaging a U.S. flag with the primary purpose and intent to incite or produce imminent violence or a breach of the peace; or stealing or knowingly converting the use of a U.S. flag either belonging to the United States or on lands reserved for the United States and intentionally destroying or damaging that flag.

Pretty clearly a limit on free speech. Notice the "or", indicating the second part of the legislation is an alternative legal authority to prevent flag burning. It was most certainly not about public safety or intent.

[wyldwolf]

17. ...

1) So let me see if I understand this, because 99 senators made a poor decision to vote for the PATRIOT act, it legitimizes her vote?

No, but it does make you a hypocrite unless you've never voted or supported any of them. Are you going to tell us that with a straight face? We know by your posting history you voted for Obama twice, which included Joe Biden.

Yes, limiting what encryption I can use is most definitely freedom of speech.

No it isn't. You can still say/type/whatever anything you please.

Your quote perfectly states why it is a horrific infringement on free speech:

No it doesn't. You don't have the right to destroy anyone's personal property (for ANY reason) - even the flag - and you don't have to right to take any action to incite violence or hateful actions - even burn the flag - and you don't have the right to destroy federal property.

Pretty clear the bill was a protection of individual rights.

[JonLeibowitz]

18. "we know" -- wow, is there a file somewhere with this information? Cool!

I voted for Obama, not Biden. Obama was young enough and honest enough that I never really worried about him dying and Joe Biden becoming president. I would never vote Joe Biden in a primary.

Anyway, voting in a primary election is different than having limited ballot choices for U.S. Senate.

But I can't use a piece of software I write to encrypt those words and send them to my dad, because, security?

[wyldwolf]

19. Yeah, it's called 'Google' and you can access it on the top right of your screen.

I voted for Obama, not Biden. Obama was young enough and honest enough that I never really worried about him dying and Joe Biden becoming president. I would never vote Joe Biden in a primary.

You voted for Biden, too. If you're as idealistic as you claim, his VP role should have been a deal breaker. After all, it's well known Obama selected him for his foreign policy chops. Obama signed a Patriot Act extension in 2011, but you voted for him in 2012.

Hypocrite. Your hatred of Hillary has nothing to do with these issues. Wonder what your real issue is.

[JonLeibowitz]

20. LOL! And if I didn't vote for Obama I would be a worthless republican voter...according to you

It's very hard to take you seriously.

Of course, rational people can realize that there were good reasons to vote Obama and disagree vigorously on issues like foreign policy (drone strikes) and domestic legal policy (Patriot act, encryption).

Doesn't mean I can't think Hillary won't be a disaster on the 1st and 4th amendment, as Obama has been. It's called nuance.

[wyldwolf]

21. LOL! You don't have the courage of your (faux) convictions

You have very little, if any, knowledge of history and the background of the things you complain about.

Of course, rational people can realize that there were good reasons to vote Obama and disagree vigorously on issues like foreign policy (drone strikes) and domestic legal policy (Patriot act, encryption).

And hypocrital people can then rail against others with near identical voting records and philosophies.

Doesn't mean I can't think Hillary won't be a disaster on the 1st and 4th amendment, as Obama has been. It's called nuance.

Nuance only you understand, apparently.

[JonLeibowitz]

22. I have long thought Obama was a disaster on those issues. That is why I am voting for Bernie in

the primary on June 7. Not sure how that makes me a hypocrite, but okay.

[wyldwolf]

23. that's why you voted for him? LOL

I have long thought Obama was a disaster on those issues.

And you voted for him. Twice.

Not sure how that makes me a hypocrite, but okay.

Because you hold Hillary to other standards.

[JonLeibowitz]

24. I didn't vote for him twice.

I hold Hillary to different standards in a primary contest than in a general election. Isn't that kind of the point of a primary election?

Your argument seems to be against the idea of political parties. In that, I am most definitely in agreement.

[wyldwolf]

25. Sure you did. No need to deny your votes

I hold Hillary to different standards in a primary contest than in a general election.

So you only have these feeling for Hillary in the primary? BS.

[JonLeibowitz]

26. So now you're denying my life experiences? You don't know anything about me.

I definitely did not vote for Obama twice. I did vote for him once. FFS, I should know, I lived my life.

I will always have those feelings about Hillary. But the contrasts are most clear in a primary contest with Bernie, who is on the right sides of this issue.

[wyldwolf]

27. Which time did you NOT vote for him?

Any way you answer makes you look bad on a Democratic message board.

[JonLeibowitz]

29. I didn't vote for him in 2008. I don't really care how that makes me look.

The Hillary supporters have been very clear what they think about people like me.

[wyldwolf]

30. So you voted for him AFTER he supported the patriot act extension

You're railing against Clinton for supporting the initial bill but supported a candidate who extended it.

[JonLeibowitz]

31. In a general election. There was no primary in 2012 where I could vote for someone better

As I am doing on June 7. This really isn't complicated.

And in 2008 I supported, but did not vote for, Kucinich, fwiw.

[wyldwolf]

32. You're right - it really isn't complicated.

Like most 'progressives,' you haven't thought this through.

[JonLeibowitz]

33. Huh? I can't oppose Hillary in a primary (partly) because of her positions on issues

like the 1st and 4th amendment?

Isn't the whole point of the 'lesser of two evils' argument that we vote straight Democrat in the general election? And that primary contests are where we have a diversity of opinions. My position to now in my entire voting life has been consistent with that belief.

What you seem to be saying is that I am a hypocrite for voting Obama in a general election, even though I disagree with him on several issues. That because I voted for him in a general election I am bound to agree with him on every policy position. And somehow that means I can't be opposed to Hillary in a primary contest on those issues.

[Dem2]

13. Not relevant

Just saying it is supposed to make you think "damn, she's horrible". Yes, most all people here are political junkies who don't respond to 5th grade level provocation.

[Trust Buster]

5. Yes, I disagree. I think she'll be an excellent president.

[JonLeibowitz]

8. See post 7.

[wyldwolf]

15. See post 14

[wyldwolf]

3. 'progressives' have a vested interest in losing

[Trust Buster]

6. The far Left and Right are habitual complainers. They literally live for it. That's why they're

fringe.

[Arugula Latte]

28. Yes. We will have to make a terrible choice.

I still don't know if I'll actually be able to fill in the little bubble next to her name when I get my ballot in the mail. ... I might have to go with Jill Stein.

[DookDook]

34. I agree with you. The important thing is to vote for the candidate that best represents you.

I'm no longer voting for 3rd wayers.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

35. Clinton might pick better candidates for Supreme Court ...

... Trump might not mess with Social Security.

It's close, but I'll vote "D", without enthusiasm.