2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhy would any Democrat support hillary after seeing this ....
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/sep/02/11-examples-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-hol/
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)deathrind
(1,786 posts)Facts / Positions on issues / History of actions do not matter here. It is simply because of the potential history making event of the first woman to be named President of the United States.
If both candidates were of the same gender a great majority of the Democratic Party from the DNC on down to the single issue voter would be solidly behind the candidate who's positions and history populate the middle column of that optic.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)BTW, has anyone seen Thatcher and Hillary in the same room?
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)A real historical figure.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)iAZZZo
(358 posts)[/br]
imagine2015
(2,054 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)Her immediate impeachment proceedings will ensure that no other woman gets a chance. Hillary will be that bad that it will automatically prevent the next woman from getting there. What a shame and disservice she is doing to us all.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)and Clinton supports the 1%. Did you see what Black Lives Matters wrote about H. Clinton?
There's more but I bet you are willing to overlook her treatment of the AA community so that Goldman-Sachs gets bigger and bigger profits.
Mammon: The greedy pursuit of wealth or the worship of such.
TexasTowelie
(112,371 posts)SSDD.
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)n/t
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)When people don't care.
I think I'm done with GDP, I managed to last this long, but this is it.
First time I've trashed anything, or ignored anything.
Good luck y'all.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)about wildly important things you and your fellow travelers on the Hillary Highway just don't give a fuck about it.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Who clearly aren't part of that group.
Response to Agschmid (Reply #31)
Name removed Message auto-removed
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)wyldwolf
(43,869 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If you agree with the Clinton column, by all means vote for her. But stop calling yourself a progressive.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)We can't support the Democratic Party because...it's evil!! And everyone else isn't as 'authentic' as you are!
I would think some would be wise enough to accept others' descriptions of themselves as 'Progressive' without resorting to "No, you're not. I am!"
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Clinton is a Democrat. Sanders is a sort-of Democrat. Either of them will be fine as our next President.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)It's obvious, authoritarian adulation. You don't have a position, you just want Clinton.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)They don't give a shit about policies, they are just cheering for a team jersey.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)for the people that the Democratic Party used to represent.
Good luck in November with that split.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)I am so fucking sick of DINOs.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)people don't recognize a real progressive Democrat when they see one anymore.
OhZone
(3,212 posts)A real Independent who is still running as an Independent for his Senate race is an Independent.
Democrats have always been a big tent party. Some are conservative, most are pretty Centrist to left, a few are more left.
The GOP is almost all far right now.
BTW, just asking.... a real Socialist goes to Sweden on his Honeymoon Not Moscow?
Oh well.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)include bowing and scraping to Lord Bush and helping him kill a million people. A real Democrat stands for the people and not Goldman-Fracking-Sachs. A real Democrat wouldn't destroy the AA community just to support the profits of Prisons For Profits. A real Democrat wouldn't put Fracking for Oil Profits ahead of the clean drinking water of humans.
Sen Sanders has always aligned with Democratic Principles while H. Clinton is a Democrat in Name Only.
There are no "principles of Democrats" written in stone. There is a concensus of opinion on many things, but not 100%. The Democrats are a big tent party.
And Sanders is outside the mainstream of the Democrats by his very definition.
An Independent.
A Socialist?
Very few Democrats would say that they're Socialist or Independent.
To claim he's a Democrat would make him a baldface liar.
And ALMOST NO Democrats would praise some of the people's praised. Or gone to Moscow on their honemoons.
I like Bernie in some ways, but he is just USING the Democratic Party by his own admission.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)OhZone
(3,212 posts)I was responding to bcz's labeling.
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)OhZone
(3,212 posts)Democrats.
By his own admission.
A user. I hate users.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)"Etched in Stone" as Democratic Principles. Those are the cornerstones that made out Party GREAT.
Here are other "Democratic Principles" as laid our by the Father of the Modern Democratic Party. I still live by these principles:
Among these are:
*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
*The right of every family to a decent home;
*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
*The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
[font size=3]America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.[/font]
Please note that the above are stipulated as Basic Human RIGHTS to be protected by our government,
and NOT as COMMODITIES to be SOLD to Americans by For Profit Corporations.
Like I said above, "Etched in Stone"!
--bvar22
a mainstrean-Center New Deal/Great Society DEMOCRAT
now called a "fringe Leftist by the "New Democrats".
I haven't changed,
and won't be changing in the near future.
These Clintonian "New Democrats" can go back to the Republican party where they came from.
[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center] [center] [/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]
You will know them by their WORKS!
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)OhZone
(3,212 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)She won't do ANY of that!
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)how much money her family left her as FDR's did.
Unfortunately her polices are antithetical to those do she may as well join the party tat also opposes FDR party policies.
Tell me if you bought a brand of soda named Pepsi, and really liked it,
but then they changed the formula to include 50% horse piss would you still prefer what you were drinking because the can still had the label Pepsi on it?
You may answer or leave it as a rhetorical, your choice, but I just don't like the taste of horse piss no matter what the label on the can might be. Why is such a concept not understood?
I find it easy to grasp myself.
OhZone
(3,212 posts)We don't do revolutions in this country unless there's something that big. Things have slowly gotten better under Obama, and it would be lovely to continue to build on his legacy.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Sanders is trying to save us from a national socio-economic meltdown, in which tens of millions of people would suffer. It's called "learning from history." The same conditions that led to the Great Depression are occurring now. H. Clinton represents Herbert Hoover, who would do nothing as the economy implodes.
OhZone
(3,212 posts)She has a strong wall street plan that Warren praised. She is center left on many issues.
And it's not a matter of just waiting, it's a matter of what's possible when you have a GOP Congress and a largely centrist electorate. The vast majority of the country is not ready for a far left agenda. They just aren't. Apparently not even Democrats are, since Hillary is winning.
Now YOU need to learn from history. Learn that McGovern lost. Learn that Mondale lost because he said he would raise taxes. Learn that rich establishment FDR beat the socialist in the 30s.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)We still haven't seen what she told the bankers. She's accepting a great deal of political damage to keep those transcripts out of public view.
LOL - the old canard that Sanders = McGovern. So predictable, but how do you explain Sanders' much higher polling against ALL republicans? You see what you want to see, just like Herbert Hoover. Get your head out of the sand and take off your blinders.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)*She OPPOSES most of those listed by FDR as basic Human Rights.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)floppyboo
(2,461 posts)Democrats at one time were much closer to tea-baggers. It's like Bill brought them all back home. Whereas 'conservative' democrats have generally been more left leaning/morally socialist in their caring of their sisters and brothers.
It's a whole new world babe! Embrace what you like, but name calling isn't going to change anyone's mind who knows their history. (Oh ya, those socialist public schools teach that history shite)
Washington was an Independent
Lincoln was a Republican
Jackson was a Democrat
who'd a thunk?
Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)Welfare reform, or perhaps mass incarceration, or maybe it was NAFTA ...no no I think it was vetting blow jobs in the oval office be an intern that brought it all back and then lying on national TV about that woman.
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)annavictorious
(934 posts)register with the party and work to support and elect its down ticket candidates. There's one real Democrat in the race, and only real Democrats will be voting in several of the coming primaries.
Non-Democrats don't get to define the party. Do you have any idea how ridiculous and entitled some of you sound to the people who are there year after year doing the hard work of putting Democrats in office in local and state government?
As for Sanders and the Democratic party, it's always been and continues to be a matter of what's best and most convenient for him and him alone. He is an outsider to the extent that it benefits him and a "Democrat" when he can profit from the alliance. He is the definition of self-interest.
The real Democrats will be at the polls this Tuesday in NY. I'll be there. If you are a New York Democrat, you'll be there too, and if Sanders is your candidate, then give him your vote. If he wins the nomination, I hope you will remind him that with rights, come obligations, in this case to down ballot candidates who need funding and support. There is nothing quite as odious as a free rider.
All in it together
(275 posts)I'm a life long Democrat, voter, contributor and volunteer for the party. I'm on the credentials and platform committees of our state Democratic Party with many other Bernie supporters. Your attitude towards Bernie supporters shows what's wrong with the party. Insiders only get a chance with you. You don't want to grow the party, you want it to be more insular.
Bernie is what our party needs to regain it's principles and many new and returning members as well as Democrats who are disgusted by our own party for it's listening to big money influences and leaning more and more right wing.
Hillary and her supporters aren't progressive even if they are Democrats. If they think they really are they should examine Hillary's record and see if that's what they support.
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)you must feel a little sympathy for Clinton supporters. How can they tell you where they stand on issues when they don't know where she stands. Take fracking for example. Where the hell does she stand? No one knows. How about the TPP? I think I heard her say, "I won't support the TPP if is doesn't do stuff that it should do to help the people that should be helped." In other words, who the frack knows where she stands. She is a little more definite about her position on medical marijuana. This is what I think I heard her say, "Why would we trust medical marijuana when no major US corporation is making a profit?" Well she's got us there.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)There are certain positions and issues associated with "Democrat". And if you look deeper than the shiny object level of the label, the traditional positions that have been Democratic positions on the issues are the OPPOSITE of what Hillary Clinton stands for. And, as it turns out, Bernie is the essence of what it means to be a Democrat.
Do a little studying up on the issues and positions, before coming in here and making nonsense, empty declarations like "a real Democrat is a Democrat", when it is obvious that you don't have a clue what you are saying.
Buh bye.
OhZone
(3,212 posts)actually get things passed.
Extremists who don't help the party get elected aren't the essence of Democrats.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Someone that has reasoning power? It's not fair of you to expect a Clinton follower to be able to actually do anything but use ad hominem attacks. They suffer from Authoritarian Adulation Syndrome. Ooops I must be careful. I think WillyT got banned for using the word "Syndrome".
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)Yeah, and I took ten people on my 'honeymoon' too.....
The day after we got married, we marched in a Memorial Day Parade, and then we took off in a plane to start the sister city project with Yaroslovl with 10 other people on my honeymoon.
The context was obviously humorous. Who could possibly read that and come away thinking that she seriously meant that they honeymooned with ten other people who were implementing a sister city project? Well, apparently Weinstein and others of his ilk came away believing just that. Weinstein likely picked up the lie from uber-conservative John Fund who wrote an article for the National Review containing the same misrepresentation of Sanders diplomatic trip.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/fighting-for-iowa-voters-bernie-sanders-leads-in-yaroslavl-1454099220
Mr. Sanderss 1988 trip came as Mikhail Gorbachevs policies opened up the Soviet Union to the rest of the world, prompting a wave of visits by foreigners of all political stripes and a surge in U.S.-Soviet sister-city pacts. Yaroslavl, a 600,000-person city with well-preserved churches and czarist-era buildings, buzzed with cultural activity and interest in the U.S.
Our city, which was a very interesting bride, received various proposals from a number of American cities as suitors, including one from Milwaukee, but it didnt work out with Milwaukee, 58-year-old IT specialist Pavel Romanovsky said. It turned out they were bad boys. Sanders turned out to be a nice guy.
Mr. Sanders had crafted what he called a foreign policy for the city of Burlington and made various trips abroad, including to Nicaragua and the Soviet Union.
In Yaroslavl, his delegation met local officials in between cruising the Volga and touring the churches and riverfront.
We are going to have to get used to wingnuts hyperventilating over the political labels attached to Sanders.
Check you facts before you post.
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)now that it is opened up? Oh, never mind. That would require inquisitiveness.
Response to OhZone (Reply #12)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)Stop the presses now that proves something for sure. He is a pinko commies Manchurian candidate. Call the police!!! Ahhhhhh!
bvar22
(39,909 posts)St Petersburg, The Winter Palace & The Hermitage, Moscow, The Battlefields at Stalingrad and Kursk (where the Russians won WW2 for us), ride the China to Moscow (and beyond) Orient Express....so many places, so much art, so much history.
I pity anyone who does NOT want to see these places.
Triana
(22,666 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)H. Clinton's net worth may be abt $21 million, her and Bill's net worth is close to $200,000,000. And that doesn't include their Retirement Plan (the Clinton Foundation).
Otherwise, good job.
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)That's great. Good people being successful! And giving so much to charity. I love it.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)And, I voted for Bill Clinton twice... Not again. Electing a former President and his Wife smacks of DYNASTY to me.
They have had their time serving ... and we should move on.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)holding my nose crap.....Enough.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)If she had a track record of fighting for poor people, working people, and women's rights beyond the needs of women in the work force I really wouldn't care she is married to Bill. But, she doesn't have a track that shows any such things. She didn't fight for workers when she was on the board of Walmart. She didn't fight for poor women while Bill was gutting the safety net. She hasn't fought for poor people who still have to pay an arm and a leg for health care copays and deductibles.
senz
(11,945 posts)Democrats who support her either don't know about her positions, agree with her positions, or don't care.
The ones who agree would have to be DINOS; otherwise, "Democrat" is a meaningless term.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)To say she is akin to Ted Cruz et al is just fucking ridiculous. "She is a Republican" is just a smear-you BSS think that by repeating it daily makes it true. Reminds me of "not a dimes worth of difference.' How did that work out for you?
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... themselves with context.
That's the best way to present a case and get some one to see your point, otherwise its "just lies" from those people who hate already.
Also, this list of concerns is pretty narrow on concerns and looks like Sanders list of boogy men vs one that Clinton's base really cares about.
I don't care if Clinton's net worth is 4234 trillion dollars and Sanders is dead broke for instance, that seems to be his cornerstone and one fit towards peaking ears of a demographic and not Clinton's base.
On the other hand if Clinton SHOWED throughout her poltical life she was indifferent towards IMPROVING the professionalism of police forces then that would be something that would peak her bases interest and possibly pull her away because that's her bases boogy men.
Hopefully that's a start
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)issues from the OP you agree with hillary and which you agree with Bernie.. ya know .. just to start.. I'll be a gentleman and I will go first...
I agree with Bernie on every single issue of the OP
Your turn ???
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... you didn't read shit I typed.
Again, as I said in the post... just sounds like more hate from people who are hating... that's noise and as with human behavior noise starts to be ignored.
I only care about one or two of the issues listed, they're cherries on top vs things that move Clinton's demographic towards the no... I wont vote for her list
Might as well have abortion and hate Obama on the list... both are noise to most of the left
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)uponit7771
(90,359 posts)berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)think this list is lacking..please by all means make your own list and present it for scrutiny.. please
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... is there any interest in discussing the subject at hand
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)shade ya gotta step up
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... folk or some shit or if she wants to break up banks and the rest of it is sophistry at best which lends any human being objective towards someone they support to ignore them.
One of MY major concerns is a person so out of step with someone who doesn't look like him that they associate their campaign with someone who called Obama niggerized last year.
I'll start with that and it gets worse from there.
That alone is a big fuck you to you and yours for me...
Now on the issues, Sanders doesn't have a track record of effects of implementing his revolution even on a small scale..
If he did then maybe I can look past some of the other bullshit... right now he's just talkin head...
"I don't know" isn't something that should be coming out of his mouth when talking about his own damn platform...
Hard to take someone with little track record and no plan on getting one seriously
All in it together
(275 posts)Bernie doesn't hate President Obama. He wants to build on what Obama started and take it further. He's had some disagreements with the president about Obama's willingness to cut Social Security benefits.
Look to Burlington VT if you want to see Bernie's work in action. He turned that city into a thriving place for it's people and Bernie was named one of the country's best Mayors.
He often works behind the scenes in congress and gets things done without aggrandizing himself.
Breaking up the too big to fail banks would help a lot of people struggling to get by and prevent another crash (less likely) from tearing up our economy, jobs, and local businesses again. It worked before after the 1929 crash, it could work again.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)am never surprised at the audacity of those that choose to side with the wealthy and ignore those among us struggling.
Mammon: The greedy pursuit of wealth or the worship of it.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... people not to pass these retorts over as noise.
It's not like this list hasn't been posted here 20841249u times... wonder why you guys still get the same response?!?!?!
Really?!
Do SOMETHING different no?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I notice that you aren't saying that the data isn't accurate but that it's been published a lot. Well here's the deal.
We don't do what you say for starters. Secondly we are fighting to reduce the poverty levels against you and the greedy 1% that you support. Do you support Trickle Down or Mammon?
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)enough to stick out their tongues from behind. They see Clinton as the tough authoritarian that might protect them and tuck them in at night.
Our founders would barf to see this behavior. People afraid to fight for the freedoms and liberties that so many have sacrificed for over the centuries. If Goldman-Sachs insisted on them giving a sieg heil salute, they'd wet their pants to comply.
David__77
(23,484 posts)I don't care about that at all.
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)David__77
(23,484 posts)...
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)we need to take heed. And believe me, corruption is their middle name. Wait until they start drawing down the wealth of the Foundation. The sycophants will be ecstatic. Mammon: The greedy pursuit of wealth and power or the worship of such.
David__77
(23,484 posts)The simple fact of some magnitude of wealth is unimportant to me. I do care about actions.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... a lot of Clinton's base primary voters concerns.
They are bag of bad for someone else
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Hillary is a flawed candidate but she would be a better President than Bernie. Bernie is anger and envy merchant- There is nothing positive or uplifting about Bernie. Hopefully he will lose soon-I would vote for him if he wins but I wouldn't feel good about it.
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)What do you mean when you say "I can't afford Bernie"?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The vast majority of the Working Class and Poor can't afford to NOT have Bernie.
Are you a 1%er?
noretreatnosurrender
(1,890 posts)why would they unless they are ignorant of this information or they lean to the right.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)So Hillary is the perfect candidate for them.
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)or the votes to increase military spending for Iraq and Afghanistan.
berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)berniepdx420
(1,784 posts)brooklynite
(94,703 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)If you do I imagine you'll prefer the republican to Sanders in November.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts).
MaeScott
(878 posts)Response to berniepdx420 (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed