2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSanders faces a hard reality in New York: Some of his most ardent backers can't vote for him
The Working Families Party, a nearly two-decade-old political force in the Empire State, has sprung into action on behalf of Sanders, the independent-turned-Democratic presidential hopeful. But only registered Democrats can vote in Tuesday's primary, shutting out the nearly 50,000 Working Families members.
Though their ranks are minuscule compared with the state's 5.8 million Democrats, Sanders' inability to count on support at the polls from them or others outside the Democratic Party underscores the reality that a core source of his strength throughout the nomination battle, independent liberals, cant vote for him in dozens of states, including New York.
In this unexpectedly drawn-out Democratic primary in which delegates are awarded proportionally, a few thousand votes here or there could help Sanders snatch a handful of delegates from front-runner Hillary Clinton. Sanders campaign has said its current strategy to win the nomination is to come within striking distance of Clinton in pledged delegates and persuade the so-called superdelegates, party leaders and elected officials who can back the candidate of their choosing and who largely support Clinton, to switch allegiances.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/la-na-sanders-closed-primary-20160415-story.html
Locked in LBN http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141415463
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)That's how the party works in NY, and personally, I think that's how it should work everywhere.
But I would shorten the deadline for party registration to at least 6 months before the primary date. Aside from that, PARTY activities should be restricted to those who actually identify as being members of the party.
Just because Bernie can "declare" that he's running "as a Democrat" on the spur of the moment, doesn't necessarily mean that his supporters can just ignore the rules and declare that same luxury for themselves.
dogman
(6,073 posts)You all are big on the math, figure it out.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...if they could at this point. NY's deadline for switching parties was before the first debate! That's ridiculous.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)I think they should broaden their base and win.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But we the tax payers do not get saddled with administering and paying for the primaries. That will make the both of us happy. Close them, and I won't pay for it
DrDan
(20,411 posts)to hold closed primaries.
If so, are you withholding taxes that fund these elections?
or am I mistaken?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)They can hold closed primaries, but this is the use of public funds, a gift essentially, for a private function. You are claiming you are a private entity, by all means. By the way I include the GOP (closed) the Greens (closed) and the Peace and Freedom, iirc ( closed)
Phew, Dems right now would not be affected, semi open.
The wrinkle here is that it would only apply for the primaries. In reality all state elections are modified run off right now.
See...I am really concerned about voter participation, not the mythical reasons. But you insist...I don't want to pay as a tax payer for a private function. My Supreme Court said such. Heck, I am annoyed at my mayor for playing Spanos' game over the Chargers. Same shit actually. He wants a stadium, fine, pay for it
floriduck
(2,262 posts)Gomez163
(2,039 posts)BlueStater
(7,596 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Its a DEMOCRATIC primary!
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)But I would shorten the deadline for party registration to at least 6 months before the primary date. Aside from that, PARTY activities should be restricted to those who actually identify as being members of the party.
Wow how nice of you to reduce the timeline to something that is greater than that of any other state. So you want voters to look in to the future and say, hey that person has a view I like, I will join this party! You do know the DNC is the smallest it has been, 29% in ages. You are in the minority, the majority of voters are not members of any of the two parties, if they all voted for an Independent party no Democrat or Republican could ever win (this is making a generalization that they are one solid voting block for effect). I am glad you are happy with the system, seems odd you want to destroy our party but it is your option. You should add a purity test to this too.
Long live the system!!!!
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Nope. I want people who actually want to participate in the party for the PARTY'S sake, not because they are momentarily enthralled with a particular candidate. Save that for the General Election. If someone wants to shape the party, then they really should at the very least demonstrate their sincerity by actually being a member of the party. Mature and committed friends of the party should choose who leads it, not fickle voters who flit-in and flit-out based on their whims and emotions.
Cool gif!
Go, Hillary! We love you!
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)Nope. I want people who actually want to participate in the party for the PARTY'S sake, not because they are momentarily enthralled with a particular candidate. Save that for the General Election. If someone wants to shape the party, then they really should at the very least demonstrate their sincerity by actually being a member of the party. Mature and committed friends of the party should choose who leads it, not fickle voters who flit-in and flit-out based on their whims and emotions.
Soooo much to work with here, so very telling...
First line You only want people, good to know you are the deciding vote.
You say momentarily like an insult, but you are ignoring sooooooooooooo much, new voters, voters that moved, voters that changed their mind, voters that are becomming inspired. What you are describing is a inclusive boys club, not democracy...which could be common for HRC supporters since statically they belong to inclusive clubs like golf, yachting, dressage, etc far more.
So you know that people that participate in the primary are more involved with those that don't. The percentage of people voting in the DNC from the party is the lowest in the areas that Hillary is winning (as in record low). In other areas where people were allowed to join where close to the Obama election or far greater (specifically for the Democratic primary election). So you are 100% percent incorrect in trying to paint these people as the ones not involved.
You reliance on a Democrat purity test (should be a democrat) is very Carl Rovian...not that of a party called Democratic.
You line about Mature and committed friends of the party should choose who leads is a line could not note have dreamed on goating out of an HRC with out even trying! That is elitist, that is exactly the meaning! You are attacking the younger voters (45 and younger) and throwing in nepotism (one of the biggest problems with with government gobs, a system where the skilled are not hired, just the friends). You are aware that nepotism is not a good thing right? The fact that Hillary keeps and enemies list fits this narrative too.
And your last line is truly showing your privileged, lack of empathy, and disdain for the working class"not fickle voters who flit-in and flit-out based on their whims and emotions".
Verdict you get 4 "Marie Antoinette"s
Disclaimer: This is not endorsing the myth that Marie Antoinette said the line, but it to use the narrative that the attributed line embodies of an upper-class out of touch with the common folk.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)See? Wasn't that simple?
1) Pick a party.
2) Join it.
3) Participate in it.
Can't decide on a party? Then declare yourself to be "Independent" and do nothing until the General Election. (Or, support your favorite candidate by donating or volunteering during the nomination process.)
Nobody is shut-out unless they CHOOSE to be shut-out. It's always THEIR CHOICE.
Play by the rules, or don't play. It's really not that hard.
Go, Hillary! We love you!
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)Yes that is, cut and dry, people that were dropped from the voter registry, or people that had not joined, or had just moved in, had to deal with sickness, depression, hardships, they can shut up and sit down, we only want people that know 6 months ahead of time, so basically heavily weighted to the biased, uniformed, close-minded, sheep, sycophants, insiders? Since while there are a large amount of amazing Democrats, it is statistically the people that have pre-judged who they are voting for who a closed door policy would benefit. The only good thing that some of the republican states have just done is to stop making the entire state fund the closed party elections, it was partially because it is such an easy sell to say hey look the parties are basically asking you to pay for their election rigging.
Sorry you just made it to 5, so here is your extra one...
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... you really can't expect to flit around like a bumble bee going from flower to flower and expect the party to think you're truly interested unless you're willing to make the (easy) commitment of declaring a party on your voter registration.
You don't need to know the specific candidates who may be running in order to know if one party or the other is a closer match for your personal beliefs. If you're truly in the middle, if you're truly independent and if it's true that neither party comes close to your personal beliefs then you get to wait until the general election.
If you're afraid of commitment, or if you feel a sense of personal pride in being a free-thinking "independent", well, you'll just have to live with the consequences of that choice (depending on the rules of your state) and that's fine too. But don't complain to me about your choice.
That's how our system works. Mature voters know how to make decisions and make commitments without having to be enticed by any one pop-star candidate.
Ultimately, the choice is always yours. Choose or don't choose. It's up to you. Declare party affiliation early enough, and indicate your seriousness early enough and you get to participate in choosing the nominee.
But, if you're too late for this round, then there are other ways to help your favorite candidate. And... on the plus side, by becoming a party member NOW, those people will be able to easily participate in which candidate/s the party chooses in future primaries.
It's not my decision to make for you. You have to take responsibility for your own choices and not blame others and not be the "victim" of some conspiracy to disenfranchise you from the process.
Or... as a final option, you can just complain about it to anonymous strangers on internet political discussion forums, and do nothing. Whatever floats your boat.
Go, Hillary! We love you!
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)You like the idea that our party is the lowest in history? You like that such a small percentage of our party even votes, and you like that they choose the president? You are pro-oligarchy then? Your victim line is very telling, you are ok with people that are homeless or going through any number of hardships that prevents them from being able to register 6 months before an election...let alone show up to vote or mail in. Are you ok with the Caucuses? I have heard many HRC voters talk about his they are not democratic, mail in votes are so important. Just wondering where the hardship bar for you is acceptable? It seems to be oddly aligned with the personal gain of your candidate.
Wow for your pro-oligarchy stance earns you yet another cake point...
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Keep me posted on your progress. Good luck!
Go, Hillary! We love you!
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)Just like you care about the youth and lower class walking on to your lawn. There is no excuse for your view other than greed and power. A 6 month wait means young voters will be blocked, people new to the area, people in hardships, people coming back to the system. What if we promised they would vote the way you wanted, would that make it ok?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... work with what you've got and try to make it better.
Or, you can declare that you're "independent" and do nothing except complain online about how you WISH it was different and how "unfair" it is that you can't have your way.
On the bright side, if you honestly believe that griping online is the way to go, then you can take great comfort in the knowledge that with each and every new message you post here, you're just *that much* closer to achieving your goal (of whatever it may be.)
Goodbye.
Go, Hillary! We love you!
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)That is why I have called and emailed or candidates, and why I have been in this party for years. That is why I will be at the delegate convention here on the weekend. I find the fact that so many HRC supporters love the idea that we are in closed primaries horrible. They are laughing from the other side of the window, but when the house collapses in on them they better hope those on the outside are their to help them. Perhaps your vote will also get rejected and you will suddenly see how unfair it is. Don't worry when that happens we will have your backs because that is what our party was supposed to be about.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)That's how logic works.
I sure do wish you anti-voter people could offer up better than unsupported assertions, insults, and childish rants.
Maybe then we could have a discussion.
dogman
(6,073 posts)The GOP loves it and a lot of Democrats enjoy it too. We must have rules to protect the leadership from the people.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)If you can't register by a simple and well-publicized date, you weren't suppressed.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Voting must be free and easy. Anything less is suppression.
brooklynite
(94,728 posts)Two separate elections, right?
dogman
(6,073 posts)Renew Deal
(81,871 posts)Register in time and you can vote.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Tarc
(10,476 posts)"I don't live in this state but I can't vote? SUPPRESSED!"
"I'm not a citizen, why can't I vote? SUPPRESSED!"
Life has rules, bro. Join the party of GTFO. Simple as that.
dogman
(6,073 posts)It is simple. You cannot win with a minority, get it?
Tarc
(10,476 posts)Go Green. Or something.
dogman
(6,073 posts)I don't have to go green unless that is my choice. I can walk into the polling place and ask for whatever ballot I choose. Free and easy.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)Use one some time."the action of suppressing something'
Historic NY
(37,453 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)My State Party welcomes voters, it is that easy.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)You obviously want Democrats to lose the general election if you are telling independents to GTFO because Democrats can not win the general without independents.
dogman
(6,073 posts)what is the motivation here? I know why the GOP loves it.
DRI
(24 posts)The leadership of the Democratic and Republican parties are corrupt. They respond to tje oligarchs in Finance, Energy, Technology, Communications and foreign interests. It is we the people that make the difference in our ideas and actions. We the people are what separate the ideas between those who care for others with democratic ideals and those who are afraid of change and live their daily lives in fear of change (Republicans)
Bernie is our only hope for change.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)My dog can't vote and she is not being suppressed either.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)goal posts?
Silly is as silly does.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)You do not have the right to vote there. No matter what you try to read into it, a voter is defined as "a person who votes or has the right to vote at an election."
DrDan
(20,411 posts)otherwise, they do not have the right to vote in an election.
Simple. Makes sense.
dogman
(6,073 posts)I'm glad my State doesn't think so.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)I know. it's not the democratic Party, it is the Democratic Party. Enjoy the private club, you don't need people.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)I do remember reading prior complaints, but I am simply opining on the OP which does not address those. I am sorry if it offends so many that voting should be free and easy. I knew the GOP has been fighting that concept, just kind of surprised to see so many Democrats advocate against it.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)My state has allowed same day registration for decades, the rest of the country could easily do the same. Requiring people to register months in advance does make it more difficult to vote and anything that makes voting more difficult is a form of voter suppression.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Minnesota's caucus system does suppress voters, our elections that are run by the state are much better. Even our crappy caucus system allows same day registration however.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Caucuses that force you to be there for 4-8 hours are suppression.
If you cannot walk the four blocks, you have the opportunity to fill in an absentee ballot. Not the same as actually being denied your vote. It dilutes the significance of real voter suppression- the type Dems have been fighting the GOP about for years- to claim a four block walk is being disenfranchised.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Minnesota caucuses do not allow absentee voting so you are 100% wrong when you say people who could not walk a half a mile on an unlit road in the Minnesota winter would not be disenfranchised because they clearly would be.
There is more than one type of voter suppression and as horrible as voter ID is caucuses are an even worse form of voter suppression. There are even more people who are unable to make it to caucuses during that two hour window than there are people who lack proper ID. It is sad to see Democrats supporting a system that disenfranchises even more people than repressive Voter ID laws do.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)The requirement that voters stay for several hours impedes many more low income voters. But I am not seeing lots of complaints about caucuses here- why would that be?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I have seen lots of complaints about the caucus system from across the whole political spectrum. Even though Bernie did well in most of the caucuses most Bernie supporters I know think that caucuses are an archaic system that needs to go away. Most Hillary supporters and even many Republicans feel the same way. The only people I really hear supporting the caucus system are the party insiders and even many of them are now questioning it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)caucus. Four blocks should be doable, with a slight bit of planning.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)The four block walk was only one of the things I complained about, my post made it very clear there was plenty I did not like about the caucus process. You may have chosen to focus on the part in which I noted the horrible parking situation but just because that is the only part you focused on does not mean that was the focus of my entire post.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)Yes the rules have been in place for a log time, so has voter suppression.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Go whine elsewhere. We're done here.
nemo137
(3,297 posts)Like in France, for example, instead of a series of 50 state-organized party primaries that lead to a general election. If it were a two-round election, it would be an outrage that not all voters could chose a specific candidate in every state. As it is, it's an ass-ache and another example of the weaknesses of the federal system, but not the terrifying exercise in voter suppression that some posts here are implying.
dogman
(6,073 posts)That's just how it is? Intent doesn't matter?
nemo137
(3,297 posts)That's an entirely separate issue.
Voter ID laws, R secretaries of state messing with polling times and locations, felon disenfranchisement and the like are huge issues that everyone should be concerned with, and Democrats especially. The fact that this hasn't been a tail-on-fire priority for the national Democratic party is going to come back and bite them in the ass (and the fact that neither campaign cared until their ox got gored is a mark against both HRC and BS).
The fact that we have 50 states with 50 state parties deciding how their primaries/caucuses are going to be conducted isn't even in the same ballpark. The fact that our electoral system works in such a way as to almost certainly reduce the number of parties down to 2 (because everything is done first-past-the-post, single member district) is another issue, but it's not even playing the same sport as voter suppression or the shitshow that is state election planning.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Yes, each of the states, territories, etc. make their own rules. Some make it really easy. You walk in to a polling place and you vote. Others restrict voting through arbitrary rules designed by the people in power to stay in power. My preference is the former. You would think that Democrats would tend to support democracy.
nemo137
(3,297 posts)I went back and re-read it after seeing your post, to make sure I hadn't misread it. I think we have a basic disagreement about what the purpose of a primary election is. I think it should be more restrictive than the general election - the primary is about choosing the candidate that best represents your party (who you want to offer to your fellow citizens as a potential representative), the general is about who ought to actually run the country. Calling that "voter suppression" is hyperbolic.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Since it is a private party function though, you pay for it...no, you do not get to vote the same day as the regularly scheduled election...nope, you decouple. Or for that matter use any, and I mean this, any state resources. You want precincts, go rent them. You want machines, go rent them. You want somebody to administer the election...there are companies that specialize in it.
basselope
(2,565 posts)Not caucuses, not closed primaries.
Let's actually get a chance at choosing the two best CANDIDATES, instead of the two candidates the establishment decides it wants.
hill2016
(1,772 posts)people from the other side voting for your weakest candidate?
basselope
(2,565 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)Haven't you heard??
It stops in person voter fraud.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the point of voter ID laws is to prevent racial minorities, poor people, and young people from voting.
basselope
(2,565 posts)But the justification they use has the same grounding in reality as the "but THEY will vote for our weakest candidate to try and sabotage us"
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)here than to Democrats--all other parties are spread so thin (including the Republicans in many places) that the Democrats could game their primaries or conventions by last-minute switches and hijacking the party.
for the Republicans, for example, it would only take a few hundred voters in a few key districts for Democrats to significantly change their delegate counts, and it could be done very easily by the local party machine.
at the same time, people who are openly hostile to the Democratic party--not losing any sleep over them not getting to pick our leadership.
basselope
(2,565 posts)If ANYONE wanted to do that it could easily be done by switching registration for a time. If it would only take a few hundred votes in key districts.. why aren't they doing it?
Reality is that it is as frequent and significant as in person voter fraud. IT technically CAN happen, but it usually doesn't and even when it does the impact is so minute that it doesn't have any actual effect on the outcome.
Closed primaries are archaic rituals that need to be abolished. Let's get the two best candidates, instead of the 2 worst.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)to vote strategically.
if you're a Democrat and want to pick the Democratic nominee for President, register Democratic.
If you align yourself with the Working Families Party and want to help pick their leadership, register with them.
If you're a Republican and you want to pick the Republican nominee, register as a Republican.
New York's early deadline for switching should probably be moved up, I will agree on that.
basselope
(2,565 posts)Since each party has their OWN primary to worry about.
In "off years" where there is an incumbent, there is plenty of time to change if someone wants to play this game.. but reality is, it just doesn't happen.
The whole "shenanigans" concept just doesn't hold any water.
100% Open Primaries for ALL parties. Just let the people vote instead of suppressing their votes.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it's a constitutional right
basselope
(2,565 posts)There is nothing in the constitution about political parties.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Incidentally same talking point as to why we need ID laws.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)It happens way more often.
Arkansas Granny
(31,530 posts)We have open primaries in Arkansas. When I went to vote, I was asked if I wanted a Republican ballot or a Democratic ballot. I could have asked for the Republican ballot and voted for the weakest possible person on the ticket. Do you remember when Limbaugh and others advocated this tactic in 2008?
basselope
(2,565 posts)Arkansas Granny
(31,530 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)You just want to suppress the vote as much as possible.
Got it.
Arkansas Granny
(31,530 posts)You can change your party affiliation if you please. You just have to abide by the rules of the state in which you vote. I believe those rules have been in force for many years. It's up to the voter to educate themselves so they can participate.
MineralMan
(146,331 posts)nominee for President. In New York, like some other states, only DEMOCRATIC voters by registration get to participate in the primary election. I can't say I have any problem with that. It is a party thing. People who want a voice in choosing the Democratic Party's nominee should register as Democrats. Pretty simple, really.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Requiring registration 6 months early is the establishment protecting their turf.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)apnu
(8,758 posts)Bernie's the outsider invading the Democratic party. I have no problem with that, we could do with more full throat roaring progressives in the party, but by coming over here, he's accepting the rules the party has on hand.
That means having a plan for the closed primary states. I love you Bernie, but clearly you didn't have a plan for that.
Sure he started way outside as a joke, to everybody but those on left's left. And it is still very surprising he's gotten this far and maybe there wasn't time to rally left leaning independents to join the Democratic Party last fall. But these are the rules that New York has and that's that. Its not like New Yorkers are in the dark about this. Anybody looking up now saying "what the hell" about New York's primary system has been not paying attention.
When I lived in New York in the 1990s, we all knew we had to join a party long in advance of primary day. If we slackers could get it and do it, anybody can.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)I suspect many who were surveyed thought they could vote in the Dem primary even though they will find out they cant when they arrive a the polling station.
IamMab
(1,359 posts)Bump-bump-ba-dum... Whaaaa!
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)IamMab
(1,359 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)IMO it's strange for Democrats to be so proud of this