Closed Primaries are a bad bad idea.

[Sky Masterson]

Where I live there was a small restaurant named "China Toms".
The owner was a very nice Asian lady named Lisa and her husband made the best dumplings you could find!
We went there for years and the people and food was always delicious.
About 10 years ago they went totally authentic.
Started a Buffet
They served fish heads,Hundred year eggs, and various dishes that are very authentic and popular in the local Asian community but not very attractive to the local population of my city.
The Parking lot got emptier, and emptier, until they went out of Business.

This to me is a metaphor for why closed Primaries are a bad thing.
If your food/Candidate is only appreciated by your established party/culture and doesn't cross over to other customers/voters then it is very very hard to stay in Business/win.

[bigwillq]

1. I think all should be open.

Anyone that wants to vote should be able to in every election. I want to have a say in the R primary.

[Sky Masterson]

2. Me too

And I think that anyone with a Social Security number should be automatically registered to vote.

[Vinca]

3. I agree. People shouldn't be restricted in voting in any way.

[DanTex]

4. I love authentic cuisine from different countries. One of the good things about

living in NYC is that you can actually find it.

[Mike Nelson]

5. The whole thing isn't fair...

...from the start. A voter in Iowa has more say than a voter in California. There should be one primary day and everyone should vote for the Dem or blech Repub they want... it should be a day off from work, too.

[mythology]

63. Moving to a single day primary has a cost

Lesser known and funded candidates would be at even more of a disadvantage. Campaigning in smaller states like Iowa and New Hampshire makes it possible for a lesser known candidate to make inroads.

Even if we were to switch to public funded primaries (which itself has problems) a candidate like Sanders would still be disadvantaged in the he wouldn't have the chance to build momentum.

[Hortensis]

6. There are costs and benefits to both.

In this era of great partisan divides and political corruption, the negatives of open primaries, particularly cross over of enemies seeking to overset the choices of party members, are accentuated.

In another era, corruption of the democratic process via open primaries might be comparatively much less of a problem. The benefits of the truly open choice they offer would then become once again the more effectively democratic way to go.

[HereSince1628]

13. I think fear of cross-over voting is greater than it's reality. The costs of preventing it worse

than the benefits of allowing it.

As the two main parties shrink in paying members, it seems they each simultaneously need more electoral support from unaffilliated voters. Why not leave the process open and have them help choose candidates that are attractive to them?

The arrogant notion that voters shouldn't have a choice and shouldn't have a viable alternative place to take their vote is an attempt at tyranny by political party

[Hortensis]

20. HereSince, by far most "independents"

are not independent at all and are often strongly right or left. Left-leaners normally reliably vote Democrat and vice versa for the right-leaners.

This is my way of saying, if independents want to vote in a primary of a political party they can always ditch their independent posturing and register for that party.

The ones who are truly independent choose, by nature, not to have a choice in the party primaries. There's a cost to everything, whether we count it or not, and this one is not only not unreasonable but it is one they choose to pay.

Most people don't take affiliation so seriously these days that they would let it keep them from having a say, though. Too lazy or disinterested, yes, but not affiliation. My husband is registered Republican because only hard-core conservatives win in our district, and he votes for the least objectionable.

At this point in time, I feel that allowing enemies to use the democratic process itself to sabotage candidates is every bit as corrupt an election tampering as tearing up ballots .

[HereSince1628]

33. The private clubs that are the political parties promote their elite

not their voting base.

Cross-over voting in primaries to confound one party by members of the other party isn't nearly as significant as attracting voters who will turnout in the non-partisan elections that actually put people in public office.

[Hortensis]

83. Oh, nonsense to the first.

As for the second, I congratulate you on presenting your argument without reference to Bernie. Smarter than the average Berner for sure. There probably is one Berner here who doesn't conveniently like anything benefits him and call corrupt anything that doesn't. You may be that one.

Seriously, it's a good argument as far as it goes -- unfortunately it stops well short of acknowledging the oversetting of true democratic choice within both parties that is happening this election.

[Onlooker]

7. They're a bad idea for Bernie supporters

Closed primaries often prevent the political message from being diluted by more conservative independents and even Republicans.

I think caucuses are far worse, because they take place in fewer locations, and to participate, you often need to have enough money to take time off from work, get transportation, hire a babysitter, etc. Caucuses benefit the political class, young and old, and are contrary to the idea of democracy.

[Sky Masterson]

10. That really only depends on the candidates running

Bernie Appeals to independents. They usually decide elections.
If the candidate isn't authentic then they will lose no matter who the primary voter is.

[DrDan]

8. wow - this is quite a stretch

anyway - have you ever belonged to a big club - say the Sierra Club, or something similar.

When it is time to elect officers, who should vote on the club leaders> Everyone in the community? Or club members?

These candidates are not at-large candidates. They are the party's representatives. They should be determined by members of the party. Why should one assume they can help select a candidate for a party if they themselves are not members of that party.

and no - that is not voter suppression. Follow the state primary rules and you can vote.

[Sky Masterson]

11. Congratulations

You've stumbled onto the recipe for failure.
Oh yeah, Brick wall.

[DrDan]

15. so . . . never been a club member - got it

[Sky Masterson]

16. As Groucho Marx stated:

"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."

[DrDan]

18. he also said

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

and we certainly see that playing out here daily with your DU-club, don't we

[Sky Masterson]

22. All I see are a few dozen very loud and frantic Hillary supporters

spamming the board and alerting on every little thing that hurts their feelers.
If Bernie cured cancer they would find a reason to gripe about it.
When it comes to Bernie your flock is against it.

[DrDan]

24. is it the Hillary supporters who now are whining about open vs closed primaries?

as well as raising conspiracies in every contest to-date - particularly those states won by Hillary

You know what that looks like, don't you?

[Sky Masterson]

25. Democracy is = to whining

I know what I see by the Hillary supporters on this board.
They make it harder and harder and harder and harder and harder and harder and harder and harder and harder and harder and harder for me to want to vote for Hillary every damn day.
Please Proceed.

[redstateblues]

64. Seriously? This message board has been taken over by aggressive

Sanders supporters who do not take kindly to ANY criticism of their Savior. Thank heaven they changed the hide rules.

[Sky Masterson]

70. Taken over?

I've been here for over a decade.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

29. Talk about a stretch

If there were only two real clubs in the country and they effectively choked out any other clubs to maintain power for themselves, and membership in one of the two clubs was the only way you had of influencing the future of the country, your analogy might be valid.

[DrDan]

31. sorry - there are more than two clubs

feel free to join any where you feel comradery - Libertarian and Green quickly come to mind.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

39. Really?

And when was the last time anyone from any other party had a realistic chance to win the presidency?

[DrDan]

43. so go join one and work for their candidate - that's the way these get started

why whine about a party, or their choice for nominee, that you are not even a part of?

[LiberalFighter]

44. You are so right.

Just like management or the general public doesn't get to decide who is the president of a local labor union.

[DrDan]

45. as it should be

[revbones]

76. Yeah, cuz the Sierra Club officers make laws that affect everyone. Oh wait... nt

[DrDan]

84. you want to vote in the primary for the Democratic nominee? Register as a Democrat.

takes perhaps 2 minutes.

If that is too much of an effort, then wait until the GE. You can vote there with just a proper voter registration - no party affiliation is required.

That is my opinion.

[pampango]

9. I don't think Democrats choosing Democratic candidates is a bad thing but

we should use electability as an important consideration in whom we choose. My candidate is doing better in open primaries. 6 months ago I would not have been surprised if Bernie were doing better among registered Democrats and worse among independents.

Either way there having Democrats choose Democratic candidates using whatever criteria they want - electability, ideological purity, insider/outsider, values, whatever - is not necessarily a bad thing.

[DrDan]

32. no it is not

[LiberalFighter]

49. Those other criterias are to an extent being tested.

Remember that the demographics of each state are different.

[beaglelover]

12. You want to have a say who the party nominates? Register as a voter of that party. It's really not

that difficult to understand. Only the registered voters of the party should have a say in who that party nominates for their candidate for POTUS. Get it???

[Sky Masterson]

14. so allow them to switch at the polls.

Show them that "Us" and "Them" are "WE".
You act like everyone who doesn't enter the scene riding a donkey should be shunned and turned away.

[DrDan]

36. and it not that difficult to do

agree 100%

[seaglass]

17. I'm an unenrolled voter and in MA that means I can vote in either the R or D primary. If the

rule was only registered D's can vote in D primaries, I'd register as a D. Easy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Just cut out the middle man.

Eliminate all caucuses because they are inherently undemocratic and have open non-partisan primaries in all states and if no candidate has a majority at the end of the process then there is a run off between the two leading vote getters. There is no more conventions and party platforms. Oh, and no general election either.

Also, there would be only open debates.

The irony is we would be where we are now- with a Trump-Clinton match up.

[Gothmog]

21. Democrats should get to decide who the the Democratic nominee is

[Sky Masterson]

23. That is a nice bumper sticker

but hardly a recipe for victory in the general.

[Gothmog]

82. If you want to select the democratic nominee, then become part of the Democratic party

[BlueStateLib]

26. Then why have political parties, why not one big primary and then the top 2 runoff

[whatthehey]

27. Yes, so all our delegates from red states

will turn up to the Dem convention pledged to vote for Charles Manson as the nominee because enough Republicans were convinced by Fox and Limbaugh that it would be fun, and they outnumber Dems pretty much anywhere in the big red L. Good idea.

[Sky Masterson]

35. That is asinine

.

[whatthehey]

47. You have a kinder opinion of Republicans and their dirty tricks than I then

It could, and would, be organized within days in heavily Republican states. Hell in cycles where there was a settled, especially an inumbent, R nominee and a well-contested Dem one such a campaign could affect the outcome quite easily. Imagine if Dems in open primary states in 2012 had had the will, and the 24/7 voice of Fox and Hate radio, to co-ordinate such shenanigans in the R race. Just because we did not does not mean they would not, especially with the differences in both unified media and authoritarian leanings (Trump's #1 reason for success, and you doubt it could be turned to harm Dems!)

[Sky Masterson]

52. Well since Hillary brings a massive GOTV incentive to the Republican side

They would probably vote for her.

[whatthehey]

56. Ah. I'm dealing with THAT level of political acumen.

Should have known. I would point you to Republican primary crosstabs but it's never worth the effort.

[Sky Masterson]

58. Aw. Are you trying to insult me?

Well you're stupider... and more dumber!@!@#!

[brooklynite]

28. So, following your analogy, the Chinese Restaurant should start selling Mexican food...

...to attract a larger pool of diners.

I'm happy to go to a Chinese Restaurant that focuses on REAL Chinese food. People who want something bland and inauthentic can go to Panda Express

As for the political analogy, I'm amazed that this is an argument being made in support of the folks who claim they're the "real" Democrats even if they're not Party members.

[Sky Masterson]

30. No

They should cater to both the local population and those in it who want hundred year old eggs and fish heads.
By not diversifying they lost.

[DrDan]

40. their restaurant - their control over the menu

as it should be.

Why should outsiders decide what is on their menu?

[Sky Masterson]

46. Outsiders vote with thier tastebuds.

You kind of want to have food that others want to eat.
If your Menu doesn't give people the yearning to order off of it and caters only to a small amount of people then your restaurant won't last long

[DrDan]

51. that is true - but to have the public determine the menu of a restaurant is ludicrous

that belongs to the restaurant owners/managers. If it does not appeal, they will perhaps fail. That is the risk inherent in these business ventures.

You are really failing with this metaphor . . . and I think you are sensing that.

[Sky Masterson]

54. You are very confused, my friend.

The first job of a business is to make money.
The first job of a political party is to win.

Just because you lack understanding doesn't make a truth a lie.

[DrDan]

85. you are correct

and to do so
the business creates a menu that they think will succeed, and
the party selects the nominee they think will be elected

(see how I did that without a personal insult)

[CrowCityDem]

34. Here's a scenario:

Let's say the Democratic primary is a close contest, and the Republicans have coalesced around one person early on. By the time we hit Super Tuesday, the R nomination is all but sewn up, while the D's are still neck and neck.

Why would we want a system in place where in every state the R's could vote en masse in the D primary to help the candidate they feel would be easier to beat?

[DrDan]

38. I am beginning to be more convinced that the real issue is

that it takes some effort to register for a particular party.

Seems consistent with low-voter turnout among those under 30.

[Sky Masterson]

42. What about those who aren't registered as Dems voting for the candidate they believe could win?

That would offset the few people who show up to vote in the scenario you gave

[LiberalFighter]

53. Then they should either register for their party preference.

Or wait until the general and pick the candidate they prefer. Or as some people do, pick the candidate they believe will will.

[Sky Masterson]

55. I'm good with that. Do it like Kansas

and let people switch parties on the day of the Primary/caucus.

[IamMab]

37. Start your own party and run it however you want. The Whiners Party, maybe. nt

[Sky Masterson]

48. The "I'm with Her" faction

already patented the name.

[seabeyond]

41. Democrats voting for Democrats. Bad? Lol. Nt

[Sky Masterson]

50. No

People voting for Democrats = good.

[seabeyond]

57. You have people affecting the results of the Democratic party, with no interest investing in GE

[Sky Masterson]

60. True

But you have people that are interested as well.
Besides, we have Super Delegates. The party heads can pick who they want.

[seabeyond]

61. Here is the thing. People need to educate themselves, and we need to help them.

What I have seen this primary season just reinforces for me that I want Democrats to pick our candidates, not the Republican machine. There needs to be rules. Educate on the rules and get people out to vote. Especially our young. I know that is what I focused on here in Texas.

[Sky Masterson]

66. You are correct on this!

My point is that we need to make people want to get involved.
And thank you for working so hard.
I know that open Primaries do seem to benefit Bernie more, but that isn't because of republican tampering.
Its because he is speaking to people whom we should welcome in and not turn away.
I think most people are democrats but just don't realize it.

[seabeyond]

74. Wisconsin is an example that I think gives us a clear indication of what we are discussing.

If the polls hold, scoring tickets to “Hamilton” will be as good as it’s going to get for Bernie Sanders in New York. But let us first linger in Wisconsin, where Democrats and independents gave Sanders what looked like a decisive win.

It seems that 15 percent of Sanders’ Wisconsin supporters voted only for Bernie, leaving the rest of the ballot blank. By contrast, only 4 percent of Hillary Clinton voters skipped the down-ballot races.

It happens that one of the down-ballot races was for Wisconsin Supreme Court justice. The progressive, JoAnne Kloppenburg, had a good chance of toppling Rebecca Bradley, a right-wing appointee of Gov. Scott Walker’s. But Kloppenburg lost, in part because of the laziness of Snapchat liberals.

Snapchat is a messaging app that makes photos and videos disappear after they are viewed. Its logo is a ghost. Snapshot liberals are similarly ephemeral. They regard their job as exulting in the hero of the moment. Once the job is done, they vanish.

http://www.nationalmemo.com/sanders-snapchat-liberals/

It just is not ok. And, continuing the theme of this conversation, whether true Democratic voters or not, there really needs to be that education, along with the mid elections that do not draw our youth like GE.

[SidDithers]

59. All primaries should be closed...

It doesn't make sense to let Republicans and Independents choose the nominee of the Democratic party.

To stick with your restaurant analogy, it would be like allowing a competing restaurant to determine what the menu of your restaurant should be.

Sid

[Sky Masterson]

62. I live in Kansas city

We have Barbecue here. Tons of it! Best in the country.
The restaurants do influence each others menus and sauces/meats all of the time.
The competition makes for better barbecue.

[artyteacher]

72. yeah and if their competitors CHOSE thier menues

Not just influenced the selections, you would see Pablum, squirrel stew, burnt grilled cheese sandwiches, and poop flambeau on the list.

[artyteacher]

68. this this

So much this. What Did said.

[-none]

86. All Primaries need to be open.

And held on the same day(s).

The way thing are set up now by by the two parties, closed primaries thwarts the will of the people. How do you think we got Bush?
It should be the people, the canadates, not the party that is important in elections. Good candidates are are buried under lies and a BS by both parties. While the front runners preach to us what they think we want to hear, then revert to form once in office... until next time when they do it all over again.
The way things are now, only the party leaders get to decide who the front runners are, so all we have are the lesser of two evils, as our elections get more and more corrupt with each go-round. Both sides work against any honest person on either side.

This country also needs outside election monitors to keep an eye on the known cheaters.

[LonePirate]

65. Why not adopt the CA primary method and make primaries party free?

Bundle all of the candidates for all parties into a primary and then let the two top candidates duke it out in the general. If those two candidates are both Democrats or both Republicans or both Independents, then so be it.

[CorkySt.Clair]

67. Translation

Closed primaries aren't as favorable to Bernie so I am now, all of the sudden, opposed to them.

[Sky Masterson]

71. Or not.

You aren't very good at this translating thing.

[CorkySt.Clair]

73. And you aren't very good at fooling people

With your nonsensical op and tortured Chinese buffet analogy.

[restorefreedom]

69. party identity has long outlived its shelf life

open primaries, no parties just platforms and runoffs, same day registration, lets get crazy!

oh, and its actually democratic, too...

[OilemFirchen]

75. You can vote in the Green or Libertarian Party primaries. Or one of the hundreds of others.

Except that they don't have them. They long ago picked their candidates on whims.

How democratic.

[pdsimdars]

77. If Democrats only allow their 30% of voters to determine their candidate

They will not take into account the other 70% and will be going into the GE blind.

If you have one candidate who gets 55% of the Democrats but loses the 42% of Independents and another who might only get 45% of Democrats but WINS 72% of the Independents (as Bernie did). . . that gives you more information to choose the BEST candidate.

And just because it was the Independents who put him over the top, he is STILL a Democrat and doesn't become an independent just because he got more Independent votes.

[kydo]

78. That's what the General election is for.

Primaries are for parties to choose their nominees for the general election. Each party picks their nominee through some type of primary process. So like join a party and then you can vote in the appropriate primary. Or start your own party and join it and vote for yourself.

[apcalc]

79. I'm not sure

About open primaries....here's why:

It could lead to wide manipulation of results. Consider that one party had a clear nominee in a state and the other did not.
As an example : Say Mitt Romney is certain to be the Republican nominee. Most of the Republicans could then all ask for Democratic ballots, vote for the candidate they think it will be easiest to beat in the fall. It could make a big difference on many states if all primaries were open.

[elana i am]

80. they should all be open and there shouldn't be unreasonable deadlines to register.

the new york primary is the perfect example.

a person in NY who might not have heard of bernie sanders until recently (and may possibly be a first time voter) who wants to register as a dem and vote in the primary is screwed. it's a form of voter disenfranchisement.

[kstewart33]

81. Closed primaries work.

Democratic primaries and caucuses should be for Democrats because they exist to determine the party's nominee.

If independents want to vote, then join the party.

[snowy owl]

87. Of course. People are learning a lot about their oligarchy, aren't they?

Democracy left town when parties became bullies.