At Jews for Bernie event, anger boils over at Sanders campaign

[geek tragedy]

More backlash from the NYDN interview and AIPAC brouhaha.

http://www.jta.org/2016/04/11/news-opinion/politics/at-jews-for-bernie-event-anger-boils-over-at-sanders-campaign

NEW YORK (JTA) – It might have been the last place you’d expect anger to erupt against the Bernie Sanders campaign.

But at a Jews for Bernie brunch in Manhattan’s Tribeca neighborhood on Sunday, the frustration seemed to boil over when some silver-haired Jewish supporters of Sanders began deriding what they described as the campaign’s lackluster response to perceived missteps by the Democratic presidential candidate on Jewish issues – most recently, last week’s interview with the New York Daily News in which Sanders grossly overestimated the number of Palestinian civilians killed in the 2014 Gaza conflict.

That interview and other Sanders campaign blunders on issues of Jewish concern, several of them complained, are making it more difficult to make the case to fellow Jews to support the Vermont senator in his bid for the White House. When campaign staffers at Sunday’s event tried to steer the public conversation away from those concerns to focus on the logistics of canvassing, a few attendees became visibly irritated.

“I’m very frustrated with the campaign,” Lisa Harbatkin, 72, of Manhattan, told JTA. “Given where today’s left is on Israel, I felt Bernie was too fuzzy on the Palestinians, but good enough. But as the campaign progressed, I became more upset. I wish he wouldn’t hang out so much with Cornel West” – the contentious African-American studies professor who has expressed support for the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions movement against Israel.

“Sanders has been tone deaf on Gaza. And the interview with the Daily News was appalling,” she said. “He doesn’t go to the AIPAC conference, but he’s going to the Vatican? I mean, come on!”

New York City is a complicated place, and despite its liberal reputation, in some aspects the politics here are very much not liberal.

[Lucinda]

1. That was an interesting read! Thank you!

[elleng]

2. Progressives of every type have no problem supporting Senator Sanders.

'Not so Progressives' might. We MOTT are INDEED a BIG tent.

[anotherproletariat]

3. Many of my dormmates are Jewish, and are not voting for Sanders because he 'shunned his religion'

and now claims to be agnostic. To them, this is worse than being a bad Jew.

[elleng]

4. Your dormmates are foolish.

Fortunately they're young, and have years to learn about life and the real world.

I am agnostic, and Jewish, similar to Senator Sanders (and grew up in Brooklyn,) and I find your dormmates' attitude to be very unsettling.

[anotherproletariat]

5. I see their point. I'm Catholic, and if someone was trying to get the Catholic vote who was no

longer in the church, I would be turned off.

[grossproffit]

21. Me too. I guess we're "foolish" to feel otherwise.

[elleng]

38. Depends on what your reason is,

whether or not you are foolish.

THIS is foolish, a 'fools' way to pretend to participate in a civil discussion group.

[Fawke Em]

43. Thank you, Ellen.

[elleng]

44. Hi, Fawke!

[Divernan]

60. Well stated, elleng

[Fawke Em]

42. I'm Catholic and you're a tool.

Nothing of what you said rings true. Sorry.

[pandr32]

62. How about pandering for the Catholic vote for political purposes?

That is what Sanders is doing. He even lied to make it seem the Pope himself invited him to the Vatican.

[Corporate666]

86. so...

considering Sanders' support overwhelmingly comes from younger voters, presumably your blanket statement must apply to them -and they are young and foolish and don't know about life of the real world?

I agree with your assessment.

[Divernan]

61. Do your dormmates a favor & share this from the Jerusalem Post

Kindly read the entire link, print it out & share it. The author? The author is a nonprofit executive, former financial executive, political strategist, activist and philanthropist. She serves on the board of Hillel International, University of Vermont Hillel, the Mary Haas Foundation and is chair of public-private partnerships for the Survivor Initiative. She currently divides her time between Tel Aviv, Vermont and New York City.

The whole article is excellent - here are the closing paragraphs.

He was right about NAFTA, and he was right about the Panama Papers. Sanders has always been unafraid to make decisions despite the political consequences for him. This is why I believe he is the best candidate for the Jewish people. The role of the US president is to always do what’s right for America, even if it’s not popular at the time. Bernie Sanders had the courage to protest against the misguided US invasion of Iraq. He was right. More recently, Sanders protested against bombing Libya – which left a dangerous power vacuum – and he was right.

The first two critical steps to finding a lasting peace between Israeli and Palestinian communities are believing it’s possible and building trust. We need leadership that is truthful and consistent.

Sanders listens constructively, embraces criticism and brings respect and decency back to the political process. He has spent the past three decades working with elected officials on both sides of the aisle, even those ideologically opposed to him, to deliver solutions for the greater good. He believes the only prospect for peace is through direct negotiations, without imposing superficial deadlines, for a two-state solution. More than 50 percent of Israelis believe the same.

As someone whose family members perished in the Holocaust, Sanders knows about the ongoing threats to the Jewish people, and our need to respond to those threats decisively. You may not agree with everything he says, but you can trust that when he says he is “committed not just to guaranteeing Israel’s survival, but also to its people’s right to live in peace and security,” he means it. All the presidential frontrunners declared their commitment to Israel, but only one has a true and honest relationship with the state. Given his record, his courage and his word, he deserves the support of the Jewish people.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Bernie-Sanders-deserves-our-support-450911?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

[elleng]

65. YES!

[DURHAM D]

6. oh dear...

Had not thought to contrast the AIPAC and the Vatican.

[geek tragedy]

7. apparently it's a thing nt

[Armstead]

17. It's a stupid thing

I wish we could get rid of this identity politics crap.

But I'm a WASP. If I indulge in identity politics I'd be called a racist anti Semite anti Catholic....Hell I'm an agnostic and not even a churchgoer anymore so I guess I'm anti-Episcopalian too.

Can't we just be people all the way around, and treat each others as people and judge them, by the "content of their character"?


I know.....naive. But if there is a God, he's up there shaking his/her head at what a petty species we can be. I don't think s/he really gives a dang what religion anyone is.

[geek tragedy]

20. On a theoretical level I agree but as someone

who belongs to every privileged demographic I don't have jurisdiction to judge those who disagree.

[Armstead]

22. I won;lt get into philosphy here....but it all is a chain reaction of cause and effecft

And if we want to advance (maybe survive) as a species we have to start breaking that chain on all sides.

I know, i'm just being a....

[elleng]

8. There is NO valid contrast.

Apples/hippopotamus

[DURHAM D]

9. You can not speak for the

woman quoted in the article. I know you think you can but you may not.

[elleng]

10. Obviously I speak for myself.

I disagree that there is any valid analogy between the 2, going to the Vatican and speaking at Aipac? (and he has said he was willing to speak to them via phone hook up, as I recall.)

[geek tragedy]

14. Well, AIPAC is a secular, American organization, so

yes different in some respects.

[riversedge]

34. Didn't Sanders say he had a scheduling conflict withAipac?? Maybe I am

thinking of something else

[elleng]

35. He was on the west coast at the time,

but might have participated 'remotely,' had they permitted such, I think.

[grossproffit]

11. I had. No time to speak at AIPAC but time to jet off to the Vatican.

It's a slap in the face to many.

[elleng]

36. Not at all, he had the time, but was unable to attend aipac's circus at their time,

as he was on the west coast.

No 'slap in the face,' and aipac in NO WAY represents the interests of the American Jewish community. I'm disappointed that any think they do.

[Behind the Aegis]

54. Actually, the slap came from AIPAC.

I am no slouch when it comes to Israel, but I will tell you the slap, indeed, came from AIPAC. In the past, they have allowed candidates to send in pre-recorded messages or to "telecom". Those options were not given to Sanders. I don't like the implications some are making in regards to Sanders and Israel (I haven't seen that from you) because it is unseemily...at best.

[jillan]

40. AIPAC is a right wing PAC - these are the people that support Israel no matter what. They DO NOT

represent all people in the Jewish faith.

What a small minded comment.

[Gothmog]

12. As a Jewish voter, I am not surprised by this

Sanders comments on a couple of issues have not been favorable to Israel. I am not surprised that the voter in the OP did not like Cornel West.

[geek tragedy]

13. The Iran nuclear deal was very controversial here.

Jerry Nadler caught a great deal of flak.

[elleng]

37. I don't like cornel west,

and I am not 'favorable to Israel.' I am a Jewish voter (also from Brooklyn.)

[Behind the Aegis]

47. I can deal with West, and I am "favorable to Israel" and yet,...

...I am also a Jewish Sanders supporter.

[elleng]

51. Yes, me too, for Sanders

(since MO'M dropped out.)

[Behind the Aegis]

52. I liked him too.

I hope we see more of him!

Wait, that didn't sound right.

[elleng]

53. Gotcha!

[Behind the Aegis]

48. As a Jewish voter, I am not surprised by this.

I fully expected, MONTHS ago, Sanders would be "criticized" for his positions on Israel and his religion would be central to many of the "criticisms."

[seabeyond]

15. Ha ha. How many Social issues do we feel Sanders is "tone Deaf" about? Interesting. Nt

[brooklynite]

16. New York politics are incredibly complex...

...and politicians who want to be successful here hire staff who know how it works.

Perhaps Senator Sanders should have done so.

[Armstead]

18. I know it's heresay in politics, but Sanders does not tailor his "beliefs" based on his audience

I prefer that to the smooth candidates who'll tell A that Y are wrong and then go to Y and tell them A are wrong.

[brooklynite]

32. I see...and his beliefs include saying "I don't know" when asked how he'll implement policies?

Or "I haven't studied the issue?"

[Armstead]

67. He is plain spoken, Not Clintonian word salad.

If asked something she don't know the specific answer -- or doesn't want to commit to an answer -- she throws out a torrent of words that basically is a non-answer.

"That is a very serious issue, and it requires us to study it further and have a national conversation to determine the correct course that will meet out goals and satisfy all legal requirements. I will form a committee to study the matter and present all of the alternatives. There are no easy answers here and we must balance all of the factors and interests involved........blah,blah,blah."

And her groupies go "oooooo she is so smart and well informed."

And average people shrug it off as the usual bullshit of evasive politics.

It depends on the meaning of "is."

[Bluenorthwest]

69. What Hillary's beliefs include saying:

"It may be hard for your viewers to remember how difficult it was for people to talk about HIV/AIDS back in the 1980s and because of both president and Mrs. Reagan — in particular Mrs. Reagan — we started a national conversation, when before nobody would talk about it, nobody wanted to do anything about it, and that too is something I really appreciate with her very effective low-key advocacy. It penetrated the public conscience and people began to say, hey, we have to do something about this too." Hillary Clinton, March 2016.

Amazingly, this full load of manure was delivered without any question prompting the spouting ignorant and insulting revisionism. She just spouted it voluntarily. She has yet to explain how she could think that or why she'd rush to say such incorrect and just shitty things.

I get that her cohort does not care, but it's ironic as hell if you know any HIV/AIDS history as it relates to NYC or NY State. She's supposed to be a New Yorker. She should know those things.

[JudyM]

71. The questions didn't make sense - explained in critiques you can read to get up to speed on this.

[redstateblues]

31. Guess he thought he doesn't need to since he was born there

another unforced error

[Vattel]

19. Bernie, unlike Clinton, recognizes that the bombing of Gaza was disproportionate.

That view, although accurate, is guaranteed to piss off some defenders of Israel.

And in that interview he said he didn't remember how many were killed. He asked if 10,000 was the right number and the interviewer checked and found that it was not. BFD, right?

[geek tragedy]

23. The subject is a minefield where speaking accurate facts without

extreme precision can lead to trouble.

[grossproffit]

24. We're agreeing a lot lately. I'm liking this.

On a side note: My post count has gone through the roof since entering GD/P

[geek tragedy]

25. Enjoy it while it lasts

[Vattel]

26. But Bernie didn't claim that 10,000 were killed. He said he didn't remember.

So I see no inaccuracy in his claims. People are just trying to pretend that he made a false claim to help Clinton.

[geek tragedy]

27. That's how minefields work.

You and I can have this conversation and none of this is controversial.

A politician says it and he's doing damage control.

Obama once got in hot water for acknowledging Palestinian suffering.

[Vattel]

30. Oh, I see your point. It seems that criticizing Israel's military ventures

gets a politician in almost as much hot water as criticizing America's military ventures.

[oberliner]

29. Yes he did

Sanders: "...my recollection is over 10,000 innocent people were killed in Gaza. Does that sound right?

Daily News: I think it's probably high, but we can look at that.

Sanders: I don't have it in my number...but I think it's over 10,000."

[grossproffit]

33. +1 Facts matter to many.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. And some further information...

ADL Welcomes Sen. Sanders’ Clarification on Gaza War Casualties

New York, NY, April 7, 2016 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today welcomed the clarification by presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders of his misstatement about Palestinian casualties during the 2014 conflict between Israel and the terrorist group Hamas.

After a phone conversation between the senator and ADL CEO Jonathan A. Greenblatt, Senator Sanders issued a statement clarifying that his recollection that there were 10,000 civilian Palestinian civilian deaths was inaccurate and that the interviewer corrected him in the course of the conversation – a correction that he accepted.

“The senator assured me that he did not mean his remarks to be a definitive statement and that he would make every effort to set the record straight, Mr. Greenblatt said. “We appreciate his responsiveness on this issue, especially at a time when there are many false and incendiary reports blaming Israel for applying disproportionate force in its struggle for self-defense.”

As a 501c3 nonprofit organization, ADL takes no position on behalf of or in opposition to any candidate for office.
ADL Press Release

The Jerusalem Post: Bernie Sanders deserves our support

US Senator Bernie Sanders, a presidential frontrunner, has recently been criticized by some in the Jewish community for comments he made about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Yet, the fact remains we have never had the opportunity to support a candidate who has lived by Jewish values, who has always stood on the right side of history and who, having lived on a kibbutz, is the only candidate with a true and, in his own words, “deep personal connection to Israel.” While you may not agree with all of his policies, Bernie’s consistency, courageous leadership and unwavering commitment to truth, peace and social justice make him the better choice for the United States and the Jewish people.

In every presidential election, we vote for a candidate that we hope shares our common interests. The sad reality is that politicians will make proclamations and promises designed to secure your vote.

Sometimes they mean what they say, often they don’t.

Over the past 30 years, .....

Source JP

I included a fact (the first article) and an opinion (the second article), to show that some opinions very, but facts are out there and some are willingly overlooking them.

[Beartracks]

58. Good post, good reads. Thanks. n/t

[Vattel]

73. Exactly, he expressed uncertainty.

[oberliner]

76. But he volunteered that figure (he wasn't asked for one)

And he said that is what he thought the number was, though he wasn't sure.

The difference between 1,500 civilians being killed and over 10,000 civilians being killed is pretty significant.

[Vattel]

77. It's a lot of civilians either way. It is amazing to me that this is being used against him.

[oberliner]

78. It's actually a pretty small number, relatively speaking

I mean, of course, every civilian death is horrible and the number should be zero, but as far as looking at military actions around the world, the civilian casualties figures in Gaza are relatively low.

There were about that many civilians killed every month in Iraq for eight years. And that is something that the US is directly responsible for.

Some months there were 3000+ Iraqi deaths.

There have been something like 20,000 civilians killed in Syria, for example, which the US also bears some responsibility for.

And the US involvement in Iraq and Syria could not even in the slightest way be deemed as self-defense. Whereas, Israel did receive direct rocket attacks from Gaza, along with attempts to kidnap Israeli civilians and the like.

In any case, one should have a better sense of the actual figures before volunteering numbers that may be way off.

[Vattel]

79. You keep ignoring the fact that he said right from the get go that he wasn't sure about the number.

Setting that aside, your comparison is invalid. The US was not directly responsible for 2000 Iraqi civilian deaths per month. Most of the civilians killed were killed by Iraqis and Al Qaeda fighters and others that we were fighting against.

But regardless of how many we killed (and I do believe that our war effort in Iraq was disproportionate), answering the question of whether Israel's bombing of Gaza was disproportionate requires looking at the expected benefits of the bombing and comparing those to the expected costs in terms of infringements upon the rights of innocent Palestinian bystanders. By that standard, I think it is clear that the bombing was disproportionate. Very few Israelis were being killed by rocket attacks from Gaza. One cannot justifiably defend the rights of innocent Israelis by violating the rights of even more innocent Palestinians. That is murderous and cowardly. There is still room in this world for courage, for not wanting the foundation of one's security to be the graves of innocent children.

[oberliner]

80. But he volunteered the figure

And then repeated that it was what he thought the total was.

Remember, he was not asked for a number - he was the one who introduced it.

I am just saying that if you are going to cite a casualty count figure, even if you say you aren't sure, you ought to at least be in the right ballpark.

As to Iraq, the US initiated the conflict in a country nowhere near its borders that did not attack the United States. The 165,000 or so civilians killed as a result of that invasion can be attributed to the United States for invading in the first place.

In terms of proportionality, how do you think Israel should have appropriately responding to the rocket attacks from Gaza?

While I agree that they did not take enough steps to ensure minimal civilian casualties, I am not sure how they could have conducted an operation to stop the rocket attacks in a "proportional" way.

[Vattel]

82. I guess I agree with your first point that it was a mistake for him to guess the casualty count,

but I think that, given that he admitted that he wasn't sure about the number, it is no big deal that he was way off. You seem to disagree, and I don't see much point in debating about that.

Your second point gets into some of the subtleties of calculating proportionality. There are competing viewpoints here, but any sensible view of proportionality in war needs to recognize that there is a big moral (and legal) difference between killing innocent bystanders and doing something that results in the enemy killing innocent bystanders.

Your last point is the one that concerns me the most. One cannot simply dispense with proportionality on the grounds that there is no proportionate way to achieve one's goals. Sometimes one must allow something bad to happen because there is no proportionate way to prevent it.

[oberliner]

83. Fair enough

My last point was really more of a question that a point. I don't know how closely you followed the conflict at the time, but I wonder what the best way would have been for Israel to achieve their legitimate goals without civilian casualties. Surely you aren't suggesting that Israel should have just let Hamas launch rockets at it from Gaza, are you?

[Vattel]

87. I am suggesting that if there was no other means to address the rocket attacks,

then Israel should have done nothing. I don't know much about the range of options Israel actually had. My guess would be that more proportionate options would have required more dangerous missions with the foreseeable cost of Israeli soldiers being killed. It wouldn't take very many dead soldiers before those deaths would outnumber the deaths caused by the rocket attacks.

[Bluenorthwest]

70. The subject is a minefield where speaking accurate facts without

extreme precision can lead to trouble.

[geek tragedy]

72. funny I can't see the video at work but I know exactly what it says.

being predictable means being tedious

[MattP]

28. I'm Jewish and think Bibi and right wing in Israel are dealing in bad faith

[jillan]

39. Orthodox Jews will not be supporting Bernie. Jews that support Bibi will not be supporting Bernie.

The majority of American Jews fall into the Reform category, they are liberals and probably will be supporting Bernie.

So please stop painting a group of people with a broad brush. It's really sickening.

[JI7]

41. so Cornel West hurts in getting black and jewish voters

the thing is that Sanders and Clinton both pretty much have the same position on this issue but Clinton is much better in reaching out to communities on her own so she can clear up concerns they have .

[Behind the Aegis]

45. I have a theory.

The reason Sanders has more of an "issue" (at least to some) reaching out to the Jewish community is because he is Jewish. If he reaches out, he's pandering; if he doesn't do it...just right...he's a self-loathing Jew. I wrote in another post both sides have been baiting and it is really disgusting. As for reaching out to AA voters, I think there is a disconnect and many don't want to discuss it because it is "indelicate."

[w4rma]

50. Thank you, Behind the Aegis. Your posts, here, have helped inform me, greatly. (nt)

[JI7]

56. i would be interested in hearing your thoughts

about AA voters . but probably better to do it at some later date . some time after the primary is over. i hope you post about it in the AA forum . i know a post from you including criticism would be welcome there and result in a good discussion.

[Autumn]

75. Thank you, That explains it perfectly. "indelicate." indeed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. My mom's family is Jewish and they have been voting for black candidates forever.

In fact they vote for anybody with a (D) after his or her name. The only exception is my grandmother's brother who became a millionaire making children's clothes. He became a Republican. We used to joke about it. However whenever a new child was born he was kind enough to provide them clothes.

As for the I-P situation I used to have discussions with my older relatives all the time. I am nominally pro-Israel and make no bones about it. They were pro-Israel to the point of totally discounting the plight of the Palestinians. I realize the Palestinians have legitimate grievances as do the Israelis. It is a cruel joke of history they are fighting over that postage stamp size of land.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. Jews are disagreeing with one another?!

It's Armageddon y'all! The shit just got real!

Oh wait, this happens all the fucking time!

FFS...the CONSERVATIVE newspaper The Jerusalem Post printed this opinion...

US Senator Bernie Sanders, a presidential frontrunner, has recently been criticized by some in the Jewish community for comments he made about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Yet, the fact remains we have never had the opportunity to support a candidate who has lived by Jewish values, who has always stood on the right side of history and who, having lived on a kibbutz, is the only candidate with a true and, in his own words, “deep personal connection to Israel.” While you may not agree with all of his policies, Bernie’s consistency, courageous leadership and unwavering commitment to truth, peace and social justice make him the better choice for the United States and the Jewish people.

In every presidential election, we vote for a candidate that we hope shares our common interests. The sad reality is that politicians will make proclamations and promises designed to secure your vote.

Sometimes they mean what they say, often they don’t.

Over the past 30 years, .....

Link: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Bernie-Sanders-deserves-our-support-450911?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

Jews, like all other groups...y'know, like white Christian dudes, can have a variety of opinions within their group, but the only time it seems to be a problem is when said group is a minority; then all hell breaks loose.

[elleng]

55. Imagine THAT!!!

This is TOO GOOD! Gonna 'steal' it, Aegis!!!

US Senator Bernie Sanders, a presidential frontrunner, has recently been criticized by some in the Jewish community for comments he made about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Yet, the fact remains we have never had the opportunity to support a candidate who has lived by Jewish values, who has always stood on the right side of history and who, having lived on a kibbutz, is the only candidate with a true and, in his own words, “deep personal connection to Israel.” While you may not agree with all of his policies, Bernie’s consistency, courageous leadership and unwavering commitment to truth, peace and social justice make him the better choice for the United States and the Jewish people.

In every presidential election, we vote for a candidate that we hope shares our common interests. The sad reality is that politicians will make proclamations and promises designed to secure your vote.

Sometimes they mean what they say, often they don’t.

Over the past 30 years, .....

Link: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Bernie-Sanders-deserves-our-support-450911?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

[Behind the Aegis]

57. Why not? I "stole" it! LOL!

a to NOrthCarolina

The old joke, "two Jews, three opinions", always seems to be in play.

[elleng]

59. Yup!

It's in GD - P.

TOOOOOOO good!!! Problem? 'They're' confused by 'our' three opinions!!!

[Bonobo]

63. Ha ha ha. The only ones that are surprised don't know us Jews very well, do they? nt

[Aerows]

64. If you want monolithic voters

The Republican Party is that way ----->

[Jitter65]

66. Bernie really doesn't want this to make headlines.

But just think what the GOP will do with this.

[GeorgeGist]

68. Is several >3?

[LexVegas]

74. Cornel West is the best thing to happen to Sanders campaign. Him and Sarandon are pure gold. nt

[workinclasszero]

81. I agree!

The "corporate whores" guy is doin a bang up job too!

[ecstatic]

85. I almost thought you were serious!

False alarm. lol

I just finished watching Susan Sarandon on Real Time. She was soooooo obnoxious and unlikable.