A Kwik Kwiz -- Did ISIS originate in Iraq or Syria? What caused it? (Answer before reading.)

[Armstead]

If you said Iraq, you're wrong according to Clinton.

Personally, Ithought the main breeding ground was Iraq and it spread to Syria.

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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/clinton-beyond-absurd-blame-isil-rise

Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton responded in an interview aired Sunday to Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT)'s campaign manager suggesting that she is to blame for the rise of the Islamic State, calling his comments "beyond absurd."

Jeff Weaver, Sanders' campaign manager, said last week that Clinton has a "hawkish" stance on foreign policy that "has led to the rise and expansion of ISIS throughout the Middle East."

Clinton was asked to respond to the comments on CNN's "State of the Union."

"Well, that is beyond absurd. You know, they're saying a lot of things these days, and I'm just going to let them say whatever they choose to say," Clinton said. "But, you know, ISIS was primarily the result of the vacuum in Syria caused by Assad, first and foremost, aided and abetted by Iran and Russia. So I think that let's put responsibility where it belongs."

[Avalux]

1. Hillary the neocon. Notice how she threw Iran in there as a cause of ISIS?

She WILL try to destabilize Iran via military action if she's president. I have no doubt.

[jfern]

28. She is Joe Lieberman with better PR

[yourpaljoey]

2. wow... Hill sounds like someone from crazy land

Revisionist history extraordinaire

[JackRiddler]

3. Obviously. It originated with the Iraqi insurgency...

and specifically the so-called AQ in Iraq. Their first major territorial gains were accordingly in Iraq. No invasion of Iraq, no ISIS today.

These militias undergo many transformations, grow, die, recombine, redefine, etc. etc. And foreign intervention has everything to do with it. Over the years elements of what became ISIS and its on-again off-again allies have been armed indirectly and sometimes directly by arms of the U.S. security apparatus and deep state. No doubt some of these fighters were part of the "Anbar awakening" when the U.S. was paying Sunni jihadis not to fight American troops. You'll also remember when CIA-organized jihadi "rebel" fighters who are almost as bad as ISIS came into direct armed engagements with Pentagon-supported YPG/Kurdish militias just a couple of weeks ago. Certainly many times more blame devolves on Saudi Arabia than on the Assad regime, as Saudi has provided the Wahhabist ideology, many of the arms (U.S. made), much of the finance, and many of the non-Syrian fighters in ISIS. The actual Syrian opposition associated with the 2011 attempted revolution can be blamed on Assad, not ISIS.

[riderinthestorm]

4. Tsk, that's "beyond absurd". ISIS was formed in Syria the former SOS has spoken

She's the foreign policy expert in this race and she knows...

[Armstead]

5. The Atlantic and BBC

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/isis-a-short-history/376030/

By 2004, Zarqawi’s campaign of suicide bombings across Iraq had made him a superstar of the international “jihadi” movement, and won the endorsement of bin Laden himself. Zarqawi now joined his group to bin Laden’s, rebranding it al-Qaeda in Iraq, or AQI.


But Zarqawi’s ambitions were cut short in June, 2006, when the U.S. Air Force dropped a pair of 500-pound bombs on his hideout, 20 miles north of Baghdad.....

His death came just as the tide was turning against AQI. Many Sunni tribes, chafing at Zarqawi’s sharia rules, had begun to fight back. The U.S. military, led by General David Petraeus, capitalized on this to finance and support an insurgency-within-an-insurgency, known as the “Awakening.” .....

Petraeus’s “Awakening” campaign was accompanied by a surge of U.S. troops, and it worked … up to a point. Demoralized by the loss of Zarqawi, AQI’s foreign cadres melted away. But Petraeus’s plan was designed mainly to reduce the violence and allow the U.S. to leave Iraq, not to repair the Shiite-Sunni rift that Zarqawi had opened up. American politicians and military commanders talked of creating a space for political dialogue between the two groups, but the effort to enable that dialogue was, at best, desultory. It was left to Iraq’s elected government, led by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, to make a lasting peace.

As the U.S. discovered, Maliki and his Shiite-led governing coalition were more interested in recrimination than reconciliation. The Sons of Iraq were denied salaries they had been promised. Tribal leaders never got those government contracts. In Baghdad, Sunni politicians were ignored, often humiliated, sometimes prosecuted. The most senior of them, Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, fled the country after being charged with terrorism; he was eventually sentenced to death in absentia.

Meanwhile, Maliki filled the ranks of Iraqi police and military with Shiites, some of them partisans from militias that had previously killed Sunnis. Sunni resentment now bubbled up again, setting the stage for AQI’s return.

ISI/ISIS: First Iraq, then Syria

By 2011, when the U.S. troop withdrawal was complete, AQI was being run by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, and had morphed from a largely foreign to a largely Iraqi operation. Baghdadi himself, as his name suggests, is local. The absence of foreigners made it easier for the Sons of Iraq and their kin to ignore previous resentments against the group. There was also another rebranding: AQI was now better known as the Islamic State of Iraq, or ISI...........

With thousands of armed men now at his disposal, Baghdadi opened a second front against the Shiites—in Syria, where there was a largely secular uprising against President Bashar al-Assad. .....Soon, Baghdadi renamed his group the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS), reflecting his greater ambitions.

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29052144

IS can trace its roots back to the late Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian. In 2004, a year after the US-led invasion of Iraq, Zarqawi pledged allegiance to Osama Bin Laden and formed al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), which became a major force in the insurgency.

The tactics of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi were considered too extreme by al-Qaeda leaders
After Zarqawi's death in 2006, AQI created an umbrella organisation, Islamic State in Iraq (ISI). ISI was steadily weakened by the US troop surge and the creation of Sahwa (Awakening) councils by Sunni Arab tribesmen who rejected its brutality.

Baghdadi, a former US detainee, became leader in 2010 and began rebuilding ISI's capabilities. By 2013, it was once again carrying out dozens of attacks a month in Iraq.

It had also joined the rebellion against President Bashar al-Assad in Syria, setting up the al-Nusra Front.

In April 2013, Baghdadi announced the merger of his forces in Iraq and Syria and the creation of "Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant" (Isis). The leaders of al-Nusra and al-Qaeda rejected the move, but fighters loyal to Baghdadi split from al-Nusra and helped Isis remain in Syria.

At the end of December 2013, Isis shifted its focus back to Iraq and exploited a political stand-off between the Shia-led government and the minority Sunni Arab community. Aided by tribesmen and former Saddam Hussein loyalists, Isis took control of the central city of Falluja......

[Henhouse]

12. Isis began "in Syria, where there was a largely secular uprising against President Bashar al-Assad"

That is from the Atlantic article posted

And this from the comments section of TPM (OP's link):

azjude8h

"But, you know, ISIS was primarily the result of the vacuum in Syria caused by Assad, first and foremost, aided and abetted by Iran and Russia. So I think that let's put responsibility where it belongs." HRC

That is the difference between a foolish old man that will say anything to gain his presidency dreams, and an actual POTUS!

[beam me up scottie]

15. That "foolish old man" knew better than to attack Iraq unlike the foolish woman who lied about it:

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members...

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well, effects American security.

This is a very difficult vote, this is probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make. Any vote that might lead to war should be hard, but I cast it with conviction."

In March 2003 she fully endorsed the invasion:

There is a very easy way to prevent anyone from being put into harm's way, and that is for Saddam Hussein to disarm, and I have absolutely no belief that he will. I have to say that this is something I have followed for more than a decade.

For now nearly 20 years, the principal reason why women and children in Iraq have suffered, is because of Saddam's leadership.

The very difficult question for all of us, is how does one bring about the disarmament of someone with such a proven track record of a commitment, if not an obsession, with weapons of mass destruction.

I ended up voting for the Resolution after carefully reviewing the information and intelligence I had available, talking with people whose opinions I trusted, trying to discount political or other factors that I didn't believe should be in any way a part of this decision, and it is unfortunate that we are at the point of a potential military action to enforce the resolution. That is not my preference, it would be far preferable if we had legitimate cooperation from Saddam Hussein, and a willingness on his part to disarm, and to account for his chemical and biological storehouses.

With respect to whose responsibility it is to disarm Saddam Hussein, I do not believe that given the attitudes of many people in the world community today that there would be a willingness to take on very difficult problems were it not for United States leadership.

She even claimed that what we did to Iraq was a gift:

Hillary Goes Orwellian on Iraq

Hillary Clinton may fancy she opposes the war in Iraq, but she has a funny way of showing it. On Monday night in Austin, she had this to say about what the United States military has done over the past five years:

"We have given them the gift of freedom, the greatest gift you can give someone. Now it is really up to them to determine whether they will take that gift."

There was nothing accidental about this line. She delivered it in response to two Iraq veterans introduced at a town hall meeting at the Austin Convention Center by her friend and campaign surrogate Ted Danson. She liked the line enough that she delivered it again a couple of hours later, at a campaign-closing rally at a basketball arena in south Austin.

"The gift of freedom" is, of course, a curious way to describe an unprovoked invasion and occupation causing hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths and leaving just about every aspect of life chaotic and fraught with daily dangers. To then lay responsibility for the mess on the Iraqis -- we did our bit, now you do yours -- is the worst kind of dishonesty, a complete abdication of moral principles. It's the sort of thing George Bush has said to justify his decision both to launch the invasion in the first place and then stay the course -- a course Hillary Clinton has spent many months telling primary and caucus voters she thinks was misconceived from the start.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-gumbel/hillary-goes-orwellian-on_b_89729.html

But don't let history get in the way of a foolish rant.

[Armstead]

16. You ought to read the Atlantic article again

1)

By 2011, when the U.S. troop withdrawal was complete, AQI was being run by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, and had morphed from a largely foreign to a largely Iraqi operation. Baghdadi himself, as his name suggests, is local. The absence of foreigners made it easier for the Sons of Iraq and their kin to ignore previous resentments against the group. There was also another rebranding: AQI was now better known as the Islamic State of Iraq, or ISI.

Baghdadi took Zarqawi’s tactics and supercharged them. The group is now able and willing to seize and control territory, not simply send suicide bombers to their death.With thousands of armed men now at his disposal, Baghdadi opened a second front against the Shiites—in Syria, where there was a largely secular uprising against President Bashar al-Assad.

and the BBC
IS can trace its roots back to the late Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian. In 2004, a year after the US-led invasion of Iraq, Zarqawi pledged allegiance to Osama Bin Laden and formed al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), which became a major force in the insurgency......After Zarqawi's death in 2006, AQI created an umbrella organisation, Islamic State in Iraq (ISI). ISI was steadily weakened by the US troop surge and the creation of Sahwa (Awakening) councils by Sunni Arab tribesmen who rejected its brutality. Baghdadi, a former US detainee, became leader in 2010 and began rebuilding ISI's capabilities. By 2013, it was once again carrying out dozens of attacks a month in Iraq.It had also joined the rebellion against President Bashar al-Assad in Syria, setting up the al-Nusra Front.In April 2013, Baghdadi announced the merger of his forces in Iraq and Syria and the creation of "Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant" (Isis). The leaders of al-Nusra and al-Qaeda rejected the move, but fighters loyal to Baghdadi split from al-Nusra and helped Isis remain in Syria.

[Henhouse]

22. Direct quote from the article you posted:

"Baghdadi opened a second front against the Shiites—in Syria, where there was a largely secular uprising against President Bashar al-Assad."

What HRC said:

"But, you know, ISIS was primarily the result of the vacuum in Syria caused by Assad, first and foremost, aided and abetted by Iran and Russia. So I think that let's put responsibility where it belongs."

Your article and HRC agree that ISIS began in Syria.

[Armstead]

23. Second front

Second comes after first.

Iraq was not a calm Disneyland that was invaded from Syria by Isis.

Isis and its predecessor was already in motion in Iraq by the time of the Syrian Revolution

[Maedhros]

26. You should quit, because you are just making yourself look worse and worse.[n/t]

[Wellstone ruled]

6. And with the Brutal conditions

within the Iraq Prisons and the Brutality of the Hired Mercenaries used by the State Department and Pentagon.

[karynnj]

18. Not to mention, many of the Sunni tribes straddled the Iraq/Syria border

The border, drawn by the British, was a line on the map as far as many of the Sunnis in that area - with family on both sides. This makes that question rather strange.

[KoKo]

7. I watched it...and it was total NeoCon....

Showing she hasn't done her independent research but relies on the same people who were behind the Iraq Invasion. And, what was next on their list following Syria?...Iran! The Iran agreement will be heavily revised under her leadership or tossed out. Sanctions will be placed again and some way will be found to topple the Iranian "Regime." It will be "Mission Finally Accomplished." The NeoCons will run it all.

She was very clear in what her policy will be:

"Well, that is beyond absurd. You know, they're saying a lot of things these days, and I'm just going to let them say whatever they choose to say," Clinton said. "But, you know, ISIS was primarily the result of the vacuum in Syria caused by Assad, first and foremost, aided and abetted by Iran and Russia. So I think that let's put responsibility where it belongs."

[Armstead]

8. Irt sounded good as a soundbite I guess

And since the media has not called her on it, I guess she could let that little whopper slide by

[KoKo]

10. Here's the problem, though...

What MSM would call her on it? They are part of it or too afraid to speak out and lose their jobs from the 5 or 6 Companies that employ them. A struggling for finance Left Media will call her out...but, we are still in the back pages and dark corners of the internet because "Progressive Media" gets little funding.

The "Nation Institute" and"Democracy Now" manage to maintain a following but even they don't have the ability to appear on the Cables or Network coverage to counter anything, or bring new stories and viewpoints to the mainstream public. "Progressive Media" still is under the radar. But....it knows all about Bernie and that is a good sign for the future. The "Little Engine that Could."

[GeorgeGist]

9. No wonder she thought Iraq ...

was behind 9/11.

[KoKo]

11. IMHO....from watching her...

I just don't think she has any "independent thought." She has listened to Kissinger and the Neocons for too long. She is a great performer....and she and Bill have been a TEAM forever. But there is a wave of destruction they have left behind that those of us who looked on Bill the way so many looked on Obama for "Change" are wondering... After they leave the Presidency...what do we find out about the "Policies" they enacted that sounded "good at the time" but will come back to haunt us.

[FlatBaroque]

13. Hillarious told me it was RUSSIA!!! PUTIIIINNNNNNNNNNN

LOL. #NeverHer

[Bradical79]

14. Started in Syria, organized in Iraq

My understanding was that they started in Syria, current leadership organized themselves and made plans, established contacts, etc. when brought together in U.S. prison camps in Iraq, then after getting out, used their newfound knowledge and organization to turn ISIS into what it is today.

I seem to recall accusations that Assad was allowing passage of some through Syria to Iraq to cause trouble for us before everything blew up.

[Armstead]

17. See the BBC and Atlantic articles above

There was a lot of back and forth, but the origins were in Iraq before Syria blew up

[riderinthestorm]

21. Many of ISIS' top military leaders are former Saddam Baathist military

Definitely has it's origins in Iraq

[icecreamfan]

19. Iraq, angry Sunnis

My take: Iraq's largely impoverished Sunni population with the support of wealthy financiers in the GCC and Turkey (who have opposing interests in Syria with Iran and Russia) got radicalized by Wahhabism and wanted to get rid of oppressive Shia leadership.

[JackRiddler]

20. Anyway, whatever the metamorphoses of the jihadis...

and the many different foreign interventions that advanced them either intentionally or as blowback, the key reality here is that there would not be an "Islamic STATE" holding territory today without, first of all and most importantly, the U.S. decision to wage an unprovoked aggressive war against Iraq, breaking down that nation. The second most important factor is the Saudi role in promoting jihadism and jihadis. The third is the foreign interventions in Syria before and after the failed revolution, where otherwise there might only be a war between Assad and the homegrown revolutionary factions, if that. The Kurds are the only real domestic militia left holding territory, and the U.S. is keeping them out of the talks - why? - even though the Pentagon supported their offensives. Again, how the many jihadi militias broke up, refounded and recombined wouldn't matter. They would not hold anything approaching this kind of territory.

And the rise of the same phenomenon in Libya is on Clinton's ledger.

[Armstead]

24. Exactly...

I just don't like to see Clinton rewriting history in such a basic way for political purposes and getting a pass from the media on it.

[MisterP]

25. "well get the *reformist* IS, and then we'll go after the REAL threat--Iran! and Russia!"

[phleshdef]

27. The Iraqi Insurgency became Al Qaeda in Iraq... laid low after the surge, then hopped into Syria...

...when shit started going downhill there and took advantage of the chaos to recruit more followers.

[DetlefK]

29. No... Pissed-off iraqi Sunnis and Al-Malicki pissing them off even more.

The founders of ISIS originally met in an iraqi prison run by the US-military.