2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumOne way for Bernie to salvage something from Popegate.
Go to the Vatican and, instead of giving his same old stump speech about billionaires, take the Catholic Church to task for their regressive stances on social issues like abortion and LGBT rights. Show us that you're not just a one-note pandering politician.
Show the same kind of courage that Hillary did at the UN Conference in Beijing where she told the world and the Chinese government that "women's rights are human rights." How about it, Bernie?
TheBlackAdder
(28,222 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Full Article
What has Clinton said about the bigotry of the RCC?
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)...that post on this discussion board crowing about holding Obama's feet to the fire.
How about Bernie actually do something substantive on this matter.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You really want to put Clinton's record against his on this? Seriously?
And you think Sanders is going to get RCC policy changed? How, exactly? But he has said he doesn't agree with their policy on women and gays. What has Clinton said about their policy in that regard?
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Remember, when Bernie entered this race, after 25 years of laying sideways in the public trough, he was an unknown. He could get himself known in a big way.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)1. What a wonderful RW talking point.
2. And yet such an unknown is giving the anointed one a serious run for her money.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Kittycat
(10,493 posts)Who has also spent $1.4M lobbying congress and the state department since 2012. The owner, a billionaire, is also a delegate to to the Chinese parliament.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)To Hillarys speech given in China?
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)JCanete
(5,272 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)It's had a profound, emotional effect on he and other Hillary Supporters.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Which is situated within Rome. The Pontifical Academy is not in "The Vatican" as we know it--where ST. Peter's basilica is, where the Papal apartments are, where the Sistine Chapel is, etc.
It's located in an old (very old) vacation home of one of the Popes--a fancy villa, very nice, but unrecognizable to TV audiences as anything approaching "The Vatican."
The objection by the President of the Academy was to the politicization of the event, and I can't say as I blame her. Maybe Sarono thought he was having Frank's back against the US Republicans (re: Kim Davis) but in actual fact what he is doing is subverting the Democratic process, and that is why Archer is pissed off. She understands primaries--Sarono apparently does not.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)What did Bernie do at Liberty University?
I suspect he will do something similar at the Vatican. Culturally Jewish agnostic(ish) in politics he probably has a good handle on how to talk to people of differing faiths and no faith at all about religion.
Chill out, meditate, Bernie will be OK.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)who, in all honesty, don't give a rat's ass about the issues they temporarily champion.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)is close to Bernie's heart.
I assume you would like him to do what you recommend -- it would be be consider beyond rude by most Catholics. Nor would that completely damaging to his campaign chances effort be anything like what HRC did -- which, though controversial to some was as much HRC's issue as income inequality is Bernie's.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)How is unequal treatment and suppression of women's rights not tied to income inequality?
karynnj
(59,504 posts)I will take YOUR suggestion that Bernie do this seriously if HRC PERSONALLY demanded that these extraneous issues be brought up at a conference in Vatican City.
The facts are that she won't - because it is a terrible idea .... and he won't.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Or so I have been told.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)This one is about billionaires, climate change, and income inequality.
Did she bring up women's rights in her CYA speech about her vote for the Iraqi slaughter?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The notion he didn't was never more than your campaign's propaganda.
And there is no "Popegate". Getting invited by the Vatican is exactly the same as getting invited by the Pope and anyone getting invited to a Vatican conference would assume they'd be meeting with the Pope.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and the popes never attended any of them, now were expected too. the times she did get an audience with him were really entirely about that- him giving an audience to people. the pope doesn't go to all the meetings and conferences.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)be a big plus for Sanders.
Oops - make that dinnerS - I forgot she has two that weekend.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)He's simple not capable, and listening to his advisors it's what's put him here in the first place, so they are no help.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Bernie at a conference on global inequality. ..
MADem
(135,425 posts)effort that she has spent the better part of the year putting together.
And the Pope? He's heading to Lesbos on the 16th, so it's questionable how much time he'll have to devote to all the attendees at this conference.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Lol!
MADem
(135,425 posts)Pope doesn't like to be blindsided, and he doesn't care if it's from the left or the right. The man will not be used. A bishop's head rolled over that Kim Davis "audience."
And the Pope is going to be in Greece on the 16th to highlight the plight of refugees.
I'm sure Lady Archer is delighted that her years' worth of planning has been overshadowed by politics. She's extremely protective of the Pontiff, so I think there will be more to behold before this is done.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The chancellor, a Francis insider,.and Jeffrey Sachs.
He's got a long history in South and Central America so you can assume he's already backed by Morales and Correa.
There's only 30 people attending.
So yeah, we gamble. I like Bernies odds here though.
If ya don't take the big chance, ya lose. I'm betting on Bernie.
I've been in horse deals with this many involved. Bernies sitting in the cat seat here... win win. He only has to show up in Rome and he wins.
The optics versus Hillarys Clooney fundraiser?
Priceless!
MADem
(135,425 posts)I will have what you are smoking. The jokes write themselves.
It pushes him over to the fringe and off the cliff, frankly.
He's not on the agenda to speak, he is a conference participant. If he tries to speak over the head of Dame Margaret, or obscure her agenda, she'll have something to say, I'm quite sure.
Also, Sanders stomped ALL over Pope Francis's Amoris Laetitia announcement--and I rather doubt that was a smooth move. I don't think Sanders a) COORDINATED appropriately or b) THOUGHT THROUGH what he's doing. And speaking of Amoris Laetitia, that document stuffs the gay folk under the bus YET AGAIN, so the whole POPE BEING MEAN TO GAY PEOPLE gambit is in play--and here's the Bern, "hanging with Mr. Bigot." One step forward. TWO steps back.
I will say this as someone who lived in Italy for nearly a decade--it's damp as hell in April. He'd better wear thick soles on his shoes, warm socks and good drawers and scanties under his suit--because it's damp and cold indoors.
This is not going to be his "Obama in Berlin" moment. No matter how much cheering and feigned enthusiasm Team Bernie tries to muster, this isn't going to make the sale. American Catholics are NOT stupid--they've been playing the "cafeteria" game for years and they are RICH. The Pope is (slowly, painfully, glacially) bending his arc to THEM--not the other way around. Why? HE NEEDS THEIR CASH to keep his enterprise afloat.
It's a tough dance Francis has to do, between the arch-conservative curates, snarling and scolding, and the less judgmental PWM (people with money), and, given the constraints of his age, his beliefs, his prejudices, etc, he's probably the Best Guy available to shepherd his church through this point in time and maybe even strengthen it, but let's be quite clear--many, many American Catholics won't suddenly say "Oh, Berrrnie went to a symposium at the Pontifical Academy, that must mean that FRANCIS LOVES HIM!"
Further, and this point cannot be overstated--the people that buy off on EVERY tenet of the Roman Catholic church are REPUBLICANS. The Cafeteria Catholics (who favor birth control, choice, marriage equality) could go either way, but I'll bet the ones that favor women in the priesthood would break towards Clinton. And the older they get (most older Catholics are female) the more likely -- if they're Democrats -- they'll break towards Clinton.
Bernie may find a few fans in the Youth Catholic crew--but they're not a critical mass, and they were probably with him anyway.
I think he's wasting his time. This ain't a game changer.
Vinca
(50,310 posts)All you're doing with your continued denigration of something that is an honor is alienating voters Hillary will need in November.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Vinca
(50,310 posts)He probably got the word third hand through aides. The important thing is that he has been honored with an invitation and it won't cost him $325,000 a couple to attend. But, keep it up. You're only hurting Hillary in the general by alienating Bernie people.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Vinca
(50,310 posts)All you're doing is alienating voters she needs in November. Good job.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Good god, unless Bernie's faux pas are ignored and unless everyone worships at his feet, you gonna vote elsewhere?....sounds a lot like blackmail to me, and should Bernie win, you are alienating a lot of potential support for Bernie.
MADem
(135,425 posts)as someone who eschews all that.
And he's one to talk--he was responsible for The Most Expensive Senate Race in the HISTORY of VT.
Where did that money come from, that got him elected? Not "little people." From Big Donor money and Democratic Senate Election PACS--and some of it he got from Hillary Clinton's SUPERPAC.
How do you spell HYPOCRISY?
So many of "Bernie's people" have gotten so ugly they're not going to support Hillary anyway.
I saw this today, from one of "Bernie's people"--and there were no words for the disgust I felt:
When Sanders isn't nominated, that guy is voting Trump.
Vinca
(50,310 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Should he win the nomination, Telling people to ignore the truths and keep quiet and worship at his feet, is a sure fire way to turn off supporters should he need them for future elections.
Vinca
(50,310 posts)I don't know what you're taking as a threat. I'm just stating the obvious. It's clear Hillary has the numbers and will most likely be the nominee and it's also clear her supporters are doing their best to alienate voters she will require to win the general election.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Not going to do it. You and your ilk will find offense any and everywhere.
Vinca
(50,310 posts)supporters will end up voting for the Democrat in November. You seem hell bent on pissing them off so they stay home and that will give us President Trump. I object to your accusation that I'm somehow threatening you. You shouldn't make stuff like that up.
Vinca
(50,310 posts)He went up against a very wealthy man who thought he could buy his way into the Senate. Vermont voters - Democrats and Republicans alike - disabused him of that notion.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)He caucuses with the Democrats, so these supposed Democrats are suggesting they would like Tarrant over Sanders.
I guess it does make sense, they hate progressives.
MADem
(135,425 posts)If you look at his PAC donations under "single issue" donations, you'll see he relied on Senate Dems, to include HILLPAC--so saying "they hate progressives" is a pretty rotten comment to make.
I really think, next time around, maybe they ought to do to him what he wanted to do to Obama--primary him. And, assuming he wins, let him get out his little list and demand twenty seven bucks from all his acolytes, and do it on his own, without any help. Seeing as "they hate progressives" and he's said some pretty shitty things about them down the years.
With the GOP in disarray, a primary challenge by, say, Shumlin, might correct his attitude. Shumlin needs the experience running for the Senate, anyway--it's likely his next goal, and since Leahy ain't leaving yet, a practice run wouldn't hurt.
It also might teach Sanders that the shoe hurts like hell on the other foot, and we either hang together, or we hang separately. He needs to learn how to disagree without being so damned disagreeable.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Not the least of which was HILLPAC.
He wasn't counting on $27 donations to beat that opponent.
Vinca
(50,310 posts)Nobody gives a shit about an old Senate election in Vermont or who funded it. Just cut to the chase with your message: Bernie bad, Hillary good. Keep alienating Hillary voters and President Trump will thank you.
MADem
(135,425 posts)doggone seat!!!
And I rather doubt you "give a shit" (your term) about "Hillary voters" being alienated or not.
For the record, Hillary voters don't appreciate rank hypocrisy--just like most people.
"Hillary voters" aren't going to vote for Trump, so no need for you to fret about that.
They're going to vote for HILLARY.
In NOVEMBER.
#FeelTheMath
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)He said the pope invited him. He lied.
He shouldn't go. It's stupid for him to go.
He should use this as his own soapbox. Really let the Vatican have it!
Any others? Jealousy is kind of ugly now ain't it?
Hillary wasn't invited. The Vatican turned down her invite.
Now those are facts, and they are funny as fuck.
rachacha
(173 posts)It wasn't so long ago that Hillary wrote this "courageous" email in support of LGBT families:
Slate: Hillary Clintons Email About Gay Parents Should Seriously Trouble Her LGBT Supporters
Then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was furious. In a recently released email, Clinton proclaimed that she would not defend the decision, which I disagree w and knew nothing about, in front of this Congress. She then wrote that she could live w letting people in nontraditional families choose another descriptor so long as we retained the presumption of mother and father. Failure to act immediately, she fretted, would lead to a huge Fox-generated media storm led by Palin et al. (The department quickly reversed the decision, apparently appeasing the secretary.)
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)When they ask unconfortable questions.
Unlike the Clintons, Bernie can act civilly.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)plain pathetic, and beyond straw-clutching.
frylock
(34,825 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Or when she said she supports a ban on late term abortions?
I find all of this newfound "concern" for our rights with regards to the Church more than a little suspect.
How many times have you called out the pope and the Vatican for their homophobic and misogynistic policies before you found out Bernie was speaking there?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Just apoplectic jealous bizarre behavior by Clinton partisans.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Hillary has a terrible human rights and environmental record there.
The Clinton-Backed Honduran Regime Is Picking Off Indigenous Leaders
http://www.thenation.com/article/the-clinton-backed-honduran-regime-is-picking-off-indigenous-leaders/