If I were going to attend that conference at the Vatican, which

[MineralMan]

Last edited Sat Apr 9, 2016, 12:15 PM - Edit history (2)

is supposed to be about poverty and related issues, I'd have a list of questions to ask pertaining to those things:

1. What about poverty and women who have no control over their own reproductive rights?
2. What about poor LBGT people around the world and the discrimination against them?
3. When will the Roman Catholic Church recognize that women have equal rights in the workplace?
4. When will the Vatican change its archaic rules barring women from the clergy and church leadership?
5. Why does Cardinal Law still have a position at the Vatican? What about the children whose lives his Priests destroyed?
6. Why does the the Roman Catholic Church not distribute a goodly portion its own wealth to the poor of the world?

I'd start with those questions. There are others, as well, that a Senator from the United States might raise. Maybe people could contribute some of their questions to send to Senator Sanders with a suggestion that he ask them at the conference.

On edit: I added "not" to question 6. I inadvertently omitted that crucial word on first writing.

[notadmblnd]

1. Why don't you email your list to the Sander's campaign? Better yet email them to the Vatican.

I feel certain both will give your questions the consideration they deserve.

[merrily]

31. +1 It makes no sense to fight economic injustice with anyone who does not agree with you 100% on

everything else.

Odd how centrists incessantly, mindlessly and truthlessly accuse liberals of being rigid purists who are unwilling to compromise.

[haikugal]

2. I'm sure that would be considered meta...

I think Sanders is giving a speech and we all know, or should know, what he'll say. The church, any church, can be criticized and needs to address it's issues but the world can't wait.

[chknltl]

3. Very diplomatic!

Important questions that should be asked at a more appropriate time. Perhaps you might create a list of important questions the Vatican could ask of our nation that are equally relevant. One I would like to see on that list is 'When will your country fix the problems your country created for the citizenry of the Iraq?'

[revmclaren]

13. There can be NO diplomacy in the fight for basic human rights!

It is NOT negotiable! True liberals know this!

[TheBlackAdder]

23. Are you are saying that slow institutional changes, retaining the statua quo, are not preferred?

.


Which is it?

The decades-long slow process of diplomatic and democratic institutionalism to effect change

-or-

The more institutionally distruptive and revolutionary tactics to effect speedier change.



Since human rights are in the balance, the extraction of diplomacy to effect speedy results seems counter to one campaign's desire to retaining the glacieric process of the United States government.


.

[revmclaren]

25. Kissing up to the leader of a religious tyranny

that has killed, repressed and subjugated BILLIONS of people over the 10+ centuries it has been allowed to spew its inhuman bile is not the way to instigate change, slow or otherwise. Is Sanders going to state publicly on this trip that the Catholic Church State is wrong in its views and prejudice, or is he going to be seen smiling in photo ops with the pope that will make any and all photos of Clinton with Kissinger and other despots pale in comparison? "But hes a nice guy (the Pope) BS supporters will say". "Hes trying to change the Catholic churches view". Some CEOs of predator corporations are nice guys too, but the corporations they represent are pure evil. The Pope represents an Evil that has been allowed too long to control peoples lives and its pure hypocrisy to go on this trip and not say something about the church and its policy.


Or is it that the 'REVOLUTION' does not really include everyone's rights and is one of revolution someday if convenient to favorite leaders and if involving economics and not basic human dignity and rights.

[revmclaren]

28. I hope if he gets the Popes ear he will say something addressing this.

I hope he doesn't shy away from stating publicly while on this visit his views on all forms of equality. Opportunities like this dont come up too often and it cannot be wasted!

[TheBlackAdder]

29. No Christian variant would exist. Europe, the USA, etc. without that past "religious tyranny"

.


American settlers and Spaniards used Christianity as a means to eradicate millions of Native Americans and to steal most of their land and possessive assets. Forced religious indoctrination was performed taking young children across the country, away from the influences of their family and tribes. These are the American Christian church legacies. All American Christian variants share these common roots. But, it's so easy to pick on one community as being more corrupt than another, and ignore the fact that our very existence was dependent on that history unfolding and shaping European, American, and World societies.


I brought up institutional disruption because your support for HRC is antithetical to swift relief of the AA community, favoring a more tacit and longer drawn out form of relief using the institutional constructs of contemporary government. In light of the 150 year struggle for equality, changes were slow in coming due to the structure of the government suppressing faction and popular change.


The ERA is another issue that remains unresolved, as laws were enacted to provide just enough relief to detract and put down the desire to press forth on that issue. This is the way the US government works, by just giving enough relief to suppress faction, but retain an oligarchic structure that favors the wealthy.


It's so nice that you want equality for all, which is an entirely unrealistic venture, if you have studied world politics. But, it's so nice to say, yet all the while you support a candidate that wants to keep the current structure in place. I find that ironic.


.

[mak3cats]

4. Yeah, those would be great...

...and then Bernie would be excoriated for making this event "political." He just can't win with you folks, can he?

[mmonk]

5. Bernie has mentioned where he disagrees with the Roman Curia.

So have millions of Catholics.

[seabeyond]

6. Betcha anything Sanders starts with... We disagree on these issues, lets put them to the side. NT

[Hiraeth]

7. #6: doesn't/ I think you mean.

[MineralMan]

15. Yes. You are correct. I omitted the word "not."

I have corrected that in an edit. Thank you for pointing that out. I should have done a better job of proofreading, I think.

[Fumesucker]

8. Sanders made no bones about his disagreements at Liberty University, he was very up front about it

But he got that out of the way and then proceeded to speak to his audience there of things they agreed about at least in theory.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him do something similar at the Vatican.

[whatchamacallit]

9. Would ya really?

So that would be Free Republic MineralMan's list?

[MineralMan]

17. I have not been on that website for 10 years, now.

So, no. There is no "Free Republic MineralMan" and hasn't been for 10 years.

[whatchamacallit]

19. Sure dude, whatever you say

[MineralMan]

20. Indeed. It is as I say.

[kristopher]

24. Remember: "Do as I say, not as I do" works great for some...

[beam me up scottie]

39. Ouch! I'm sure he went there to lecture them about our rights though.

[SixString]

10. "I don't think homosexual men should be in positions of trust with boys. Or lesbians with girls....

...That's simple. However, not all pedophiles have exhibited their tendencies. Yes, some homosexuals prey on kids. No question."

posted on 12/17/2004 9:18:43 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1303549/posts

Dismount the high horse.

[MineralMan]

11. I wrote that 12 years ago, was corrected and simply no longer hold

that view. 2004. I was educated, learned that I was incorrect and changed my opinion. I have apologized here for my statement back then. You can find that apology in my journal.

[Bluenorthwest]

22. But it becomes relevant when you attempt to pretend to be the rightful judge of others on LGBT

matters. Back when you did that 'apology' a few of us tried to explain that the thing you should not do is attempt to exploit LGBT issues for your own purposes ever again. But you never stopped doing that. This suggests the apology was just some words as it is not backed up by any change in behaviors.

Fact is, Bernie has already been mentioning both LGBT rights and reproductive choice in regard to this trip to Rome. This stands in stark contrast to the delighted and utterly uncritical support for the RCC out of Pelosi and Kerry and Biden and so many others when Francis recently spoke by invitation in our Congress. No one said a word that day.
Barack Obama has been to the Vatican twice as President, 2009 and 2014 and guess what he did not talk about? Bill Clinton went to the Vatican and met with JP2 repeatedly in the US, not a mention of any of those issues.
Of course for Bill, that was even more than 12 years ago....maybe now he'd go there and just rip into them like he ripped into BLM. Who knows?

[beam me up scottie]

40. Jesus Christ. I hadn't seen that before.

And he has the gall to lecture anyone about the moral high ground?

[GeorgeGist]

12. You'd make a rude guest.

[MineralMan]

14. No doubt that's true, but I'd still ask those inconvenient questions.

Perhaps that's why I've never been invited, or maybe it's because I hold no important positions.

[Punkingal]

16. You need to get a grip about this Vatican thing.

[MineralMan]

18. I have a firm grip on it, thanks.

I have issues with the policies and practices of the Roman Catholic Church, and believe those issues should be raised by anyone who speaks there. Those issues have to do with progressivism, something the RCC has fought for years on many important issues.

Those issues should be addressed and corrected. Period.

[whatchamacallit]

21. TMI! We don't want to know about you gripping it firmly

[panader0]

56. "I have a firm grip on it."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511680983

[MineralMan]

57. Yes. That was written before we even had any documents

about this. Check the time stamps. So, I'm not really sure what your point might be.

[Fuddnik]

26. Don't worry about it.

You ain't going.

[MineralMan]

38. No, I am not going to the Vatican.

I have been there, as a tourist, a couple of times, but have not had any opportunity to voice my concerns about the RCC's activities. I did see some remarkable artwork, though, and learned more about the Vatican's history and architecture. I also saw examples of a culture that predates Christianity. History is everywhere in Rome.

[TheBlackAdder]

30. After all, that's what a refined person would do. Act like the Palin's crashing a pool party.

[MineralMan]

32. Respect for institutions is given as it is earned.

There are very few organizations that have as broad a reach as the Roman Catholic Church. For almost 2000 years, it has expanded its influence into every part of the world. In some ways, it has been a force for positive influence. In others, it has been a force holding people back and keeping them down.

As a global religious organization, it puts itself forward as the voice of Christianity. All of the questions in my OP are related to its activities around the world that do not work in positive directions for human rights. Why should anyone fail to point that out when there is an opportunity. People praise Bernie Sanders for speaking out for his principles. This trip to the Vatican gives him another opportunity to do that. I hope he does exactly that.

Refinement is an excellent thing, as is decorous behavior. However, etiquette is only a guideline. it should be honored when it is appropriate to do so, but not in a way that keeps a person from stating a position. Bernie Sanders is not subject to any Roman Catholic rules or dogma. He has no reason to be subservient to its rules in any area. He will not kiss the Pope's ring. He should speak frankly and honestly. That can be down without any serious breach of Vatican etiquette. Any statement or question can be made in a respectful but honest way.

The Pope has no authority except with respect to followers of his particular sect of Christianity. None whatsoever. He is a religious leader with some political heft, but that is all. One can call him to account at any time. He may not respond positively, but of what matter is that?

[TheBlackAdder]

34. While you attempt to justify classlessness, it breaks from the forum's agenda.

.


Yes, have ther Yanks go over there and show them that we validate international perceptions.


I seriously doubt you would offer the same advice you HRC, which is the revealing thing.


.

[MineralMan]

37. I would give exactly the same advice to Hillary, or any

other US Government representative with regard to the Vatican and the RCC. They wouldn't listen, but my advice would be exactly the same. I am no fan of the Roman Catholic Church or organized Christianity in general.

You are incorrect about what I would advise. That's not surprising, since you do not know me at all.

[Vinca]

33. Why don't you send your questions directly to the Pope?

I'm totally serious. I've read he occasionally responds to emails.

[MineralMan]

35. I have zero delusions that I am in any position to address

the Pope on any issue. I communicate with elected officials here, because I am part of this country and have a stake in their election. I have no connection whatever with the Roman Catholic Church or any other religious organization. I am an atheist.

I have no standing to request any changes. Therefore, my communication would be ignored completely. Were I to be invited to attend a Vatican meeting of some kind, which is so unlikely as to be impossible, then I would have a venue and standing to raise my grievances with the organization. Bernie Sanders has such a venue and standing. He has been invited to be part of a conference on wealth and poverty. All of the issues I raised in my OP have a connection to those issues.

But, I am not invited to address any body of the RCC. DU is my venue. So I raised my issues here, since we are talking about a Democratic candidate for President who is making a trip to participate in such a conference. This is where I raise issues in general. When I have a specific issue to raise with a specific person in government, I raise them directly. Bernie Sanders is not my Senator. My Senators are Al Franken and Amy Klobuchar. They hear from me regularly on a broad spectrum of issues. I vote for them, and have worked to help them get elected. I have standing to address them.

I hope that answers your question adequately.

[Vinca]

36. This is not difficult. Compile your questions and hit send.

You have standing as a living and breathing human being. You're just in the business of continuing the current baloney anti-Bernie smear because the questions you have won't be asked by Bernie and then you'll have a whole new line of attack. And on and on and on and on it goes. You'd think Hillary was struggling for numbers. All you guys are doing is causing people to decide not to vote for her in the general election. With "supporters" like you, she doesn't need enemies.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Wow. After reading what you wrote about gay people this is even more outrageous.

Bernie went to Liberty University and the very first thing he did was stand up for our rights.

You really shouldn't pretend you're done kind of authority on morality, you don't have the right to exploit our causes.

If you're so "concerned" then you take it up with the church. You're not fooling anyone.

[MineralMan]

43. Only one of my questions had to do with LGBT people

and it was about discrimination against them, which contributes to their poverty in many parts of the world. The rest of my questions had noting to do with LGBT issues at all.

I'm not exploiting anything. I'm calling for people to ask why LGBT people are discriminated against.

[Goblinmonger]

42. Do you have a list of what you want Clinton to say to Goldman Sachs on the same day?

I'd love to see that.

[MineralMan]

45. I thought she was holding a campaign fundraiser.

Maybe I was mistaken. I assume she is going to ask the people there to help with funds for her campaign and for down-ticket candidates, the DNC and the DNCC. If this is a presentation to Goldman Sachs, I hadn't heard about that one. Is she speaking to Goldman Sachs on the 15th?

[Goblinmonger]

59. It was metaphoric. And let's not call $175,000 a plate a "fundraiser"

You don't have any problem with her doing this while Sanders goes to fight inequity? I mean, it does speak volumes as to where there priorities lie.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2016/03/24/wanna-dine-with-clooney-and-clinton-thatll-be-350000-please/

[MineralMan]

60. You do realize that there are only two seats for that price, right?

I wonder if anyone paid that much. As with all of these fundraisers, there's a scale of pricing. That top amount gets you a seat at the table with Hillary. All but $2700 of that amount goes to the DNC and other organizations to support down-ticket candidates. You do want Democrats to win at all levels, right.

If this fundraiser is typical of such fundraiser, $2700 will get you in. That's not much for a very large number of people. For them, that $2700 goes directly into Hillary's campaign fund. Anything over that gets shifted to other purposes, mostly to help state party organization and national party organizations.

Now, I've never been to any such fundraiser as a guest. I have, however, been to many of them as a volunteer. They're quite nice, and some of the people there were people I knew, and I don't run in the wealthy circles. Sometimes, I parked cars. Sometimes I carried trays of hors d'ouevre. Sometimes I even acted as a waiter. A few times, the woodwind quintet I played with played background music without charge. We were all Democrats. But I got to be there. You can do that, too, if you've a mind to. It's fun, and you get to meet some very interesting people.

[basselope]

44. Well.. this pope has actually covered a lot of these.

And he has been making positive changes, but given his position and the text he is forced to work with.. it cannot be done overnight.

Your first 2 questions are kinda nonsensical, b/c his message is about ALL poor, LBGT and abortion are different topics.. he's never said, help poor people, unless they are gay.. in fact, quite the opposite. Does he accept gay marriage.. no and while I would love him to do so, that would be a VERY radical step. Heck, him trying to get churches to accept divorced people is being seen as controversial.

[frylock]

46. I believe that today's talking points have been disseminated, folks.

Bernie needs to ditch his speech on the moral economy, hijack the conference, and call out the RCC on their archaic views on women's rights and LBGT.

One way for Bernie to salvage something from Popegate.

[MineralMan]

47. A Moral Economy must address such things.

Think about it. In most of the world, women are destined for poverty due to restrictions on their ability to control their own reproduction. Moral economics deals with such things. Please...

[frylock]

48. All of which Bernie is more than aware of.

So why not wait and see what he has to say? He dropped some very uncomfortable truth bombs when he spoke at Liberty U, so we know that he doesn't shy away from issues to spare the feelings of the audience he may currently be addressing.

[MineralMan]

49. Assuming that he speaks at all at the conference.

He may not be asked to, actually.

[aspirant]

50. Start locally

as you have suggested to others for entering politics

I'm positive there are many, many Catholic churches, priests and hierarchy in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area where you could take your questions for answers and debate.

Happy hunting.

[MineralMan]

51. Indeed there are. I am not a Catholic, however,

nor a Christian. I work in the secular world with my activism. However, on some issues, the two segments interact. Where they do, I am vocal. But, thanks for your suggestion.

[aspirant]

53. To answer your questions

you need to be more than vocal, it's time to take action

You're able to enter any Catholic church and try to get answers to these pressing questions of yours.

Time to get on the move.

[Ash_F]

52. You want the next president of the United States to pick a fight with anyone and everyone?

At every opportunity? All the time?

Sanders has criticized the church, and will likely continue to until those policies change. I am sure the church knows this too.

You seemed like one of the shrewd and strategic types MineralMan. Not an ideologue.

You wrote a nice OP a while back about working within the party to better it. I thought it was well reasoned and helpful.

Why the break in consistency?

[MineralMan]

54. If he becomes President, he will represent the entire country

at international gatherings. If not, he will be a Senator. Heads of state often use international platforms to promote the goals of their nations. I would expect Bernie Sanders to do the same if he becomes President. Of course, diplomacy must be observed. That does not mean that strong statements about human rights are not appropriate for Presidents. Or for Senators, for that matter.

If Sanders makes remarks at this conference, I hope we see a transcript of them.

[Ash_F]

55. I think everyone is going to be interested in what he says.

[MineralMan]

58. If he says anything at all. We do not know whether he is speaking

there. Also, there may not be a transcript available if he does. It's a closed conference, not open to the public or media, as I understand it.

[TheFarS1de]

61. Diplomacy is what is needed.

Because you can guarantee that the minute he queries the Pope there will be screams of how Sanders cannot handle Foreign affairs and is not qualified , we have seen that already .

The discussion has reached the point where any point will be flipped or ignored in favour of narrative . So I would either send your issues to the Pope or just wait and see what happens . Sanders has been on these issues for decades and will handle them as best he can in his own way . Lets wait and see what happens .

[MineralMan]

62. I, like you, will post on DU as I please.

Indeed. Let's see what happens. In the meantime, DU discusses everything. Please allow me to post as I please, and I will do the same for you. As far as I know, you know no more than I do.

[TheFarS1de]

63. I never stated otherwise .

Merely stated what I thought . Post away as discussion is a healthy thing , I was just putting forward what I thought . I am an expert of nothing , all I can do is put forward my thoughts as we all do .