If you're poor in another country, this is the scariest thing Bernie Sanders has said

[DanTex]

Consistent with his anti-immigration stances, Bernie makes him clear that he doesn't care much about the plight of poor people in developing nations.

In a new interview with the New York Daily News, Bernie Sanders said something striking — he basically doesn't think the US should be trading very much at all with countries where wages are much lower than its own.

"You have to have standards," the senator said. "And what fair trade means to say that it is fair. It is roughly equivalent to the wages and environmental standards in the United States."

From Sanders's point of view, this makes sense. He has recognized, correctly, that freer trade with countries like China has hurt a subset of American workers (while benefiting others).

But there's one big problem, according to development economists I spoke to: Limiting trade with low-wage countries as severely as Sanders wants to would hurt the very poorest people on Earth. A lot.

...

http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11139718/bernie-sanders-trade-global-poverty

[AgerolanAmerican]

1. If you're enslaved in another country

this is Sanders standing up to end that exploitation

[Lucinda]

2. By killing their ecomomy?

[snagglepuss]

6. You do mean mean killing the exploitation. Free trade has only enriched the few and without

any labor laws most people are forced into what amounts to servitude. Furthermore the low low wages mean that they can't afford to buy anything imported so there is no advantage to the US economy.

[Baobab]

34. He's talking about the built-in guest worker programs in trade deals signed back in the 90s which

could end up letting foreign companies (the lowest qualified bidders) into the US - if we build any infrastructure those countries' companies are likely to win the bids if they have lower wages.

Seriously. Nobody knows this. Its just changed recently-

[AgerolanAmerican]

9. What share of that economy goes to the slaves for their labor?

And what percentage goes to their elites?

It's a myth that these trade deals lift the poor out of poverty. They simply enrich the already-rich on both sides while screwing the poor on both sides.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Quick, how much money is in off shore accounts right at the moment?

(32 Trillion)

What do you think would happen if that money was sent back into taxes world wide, and if we actually had trade agreements that do not place Auto workers from Detroit, hell, even right to work southern states, with auto workers in Mexico and other places? Or better yet, what would happen if the wages in Mexico came up to meet US wage scales? And yes, income inequality has a lot to do with FTas and the Panama papers.

I know it is complex, and I doubt CNN will do a full in depth story. But the good folks at the Christian Science Monitor and the Guardian have.

[DanTex]

4. Oh, yeah, I'm sure all the workers in developing countries would be thrilled that

Bernie plans to hit them with tariffs and trade sanctions so that they will lose their jobs and have to go back to living in dire poverty. Who wouldn't want that?

[Avalon Sparks]

8. Are you a poor worker in another country?

Sorry, we have too many poor folks in the US to worry about.

And I'd also argue if you're a poor person in the mid-east, the scariest thing is worrying about being hit by a US bomb due to the war mongers.

[DanTex]

18. That doesn't stop me from caring about them, or recognizing

that global poverty has decreased dramatically over the last several decades. And the tariffs and trade barriers that Bernie would impose on developing nations would most certainly hurt the economies and workers in those countries.

[Avalon Sparks]

21. how charitable of you

I'm sure those in poverty in this country don't have the luxury to feel charitable these days.

So what's your stake in it Dan? Care to be transparent?

Do you own a company that would be impacted, meaning no more cheap labor for you.
Do you have some bullet proof job that can't be impacted by outsourcing or insourcing?
Own a small business that would go under if you had to pay a dime more in taxes?
Earn over 250,000 per year and don't want to pay more income taxes?

Anyone in the US that works in a decent paying job right not should be highly concerned about competing with cheaper labor, whether insourced or outsourced due to these trade agreements.

What do you think would happen if you stood before a group of Carrier workers, let say a group of 20 men that are out of a job cause their plant moved to Mexico? Would you tell them how great it will be for the poor there? Would you tell them that Dan?

[DanTex]

23. Working class Americans are at about the 85th percentile globally.

I care about Americans in poverty, of course, but I don't think the solution to the economic problems of this country involves hurting the economies of less developed nations by imposing trade barriers against them. In that statement in the OP, he says very clearly that he only thinks we should be trading with countries where wage levels are similar to the US, which is to say wealthy first-world nations. Basically, he wants to create a gated international community of wealthy countries, and impose tariffs on everyone else so they can't join the party.

I am absolutely in favor of higher taxes on Americans who are well off, and I'd be happy to pay more taxes for the sake of redistribution and a stronger safety net and more spending on infrastructure and clean energy investment, etc. That only hurts wealthy Americans, who can afford to pay more. But trade sanctions against developing countries hurts the people in those developing countries.

By the way, trade is far from the only or even the main reason that working class wages have stagnated. One bigger factor is automation. The stagnation in wages started well before NAFTA and the other trade agreements that Sanders likes to blame for everything that is wrong in the world.

I wonder, does Bernie want to thwart the technological progress that has led jobs to be lost to robots and computers also? Maybe an extra tax on advanced industrial machinery? That would be dumb, but at least by doing that, he wouldn't be shutting down jobs in developing countries and relegating workers there to destitute poverty.

[Avalon Sparks]

24. I've read everything I could get my hands on the last three months about Free Trade Agreements

And while I appreciate your civil debate and I will contend that I've seen these same justifications made, I"ve also seen and read points that counter it.

After months of research and looking at Op-Eds that argue for and against. Finally drilling down and looking at all kinds of stats and data, doing a comparative analysis on my own (I was a data analyst in another life/career) I have come to my own conclusions.

I don't claim to have all the answers, however I am satisfied that I've researched this topic enough to form my own conclusions - here's the highlights:

-Free trade has contributed greatly to stagnant wages in this country
-The US has lost an enormous number of decent paying jobs that were replaced with lower pay service jobs
-Free trade has had some, but very small impact on raising the standard of living in poorer countries (you should really look hard for the data on this one - there's a lot of op-ed spin out there)
-The latest free trade agreements have very little to do with trade - try reading the TPP agreement from start to finish - I did
-The 'cheaper' goods we get from free trade, are not proportional to the wage gains we've lost, it's not like all or even most of the labor savings are passed on in the prices, and price points are set usually by what people are willing to pay
-Unfettered free trade creates monopolies (lots of information about this out there, numerous undisputable examples)


I was in the front lines in the late 90's in the tech industry. I wasn't a programmer, I was a Systems Business Analyst that worked with programmers. One by one I watched them outsourced to an HB1 Visa holder. The difference in the knowledge and technical skills was large, with the HB1 employees far behind, but hey if the company can save 40,000 bucks a year, why not? It was devastating to watch programmers lose their livelihood. I was so excited when the tech era rushed in, I thought it was going to be the next industrial revolution for the US - and it was for a very short time. The decline was not all due to outsourcing, but it sure didn't help. Shortly after, I read the book Globalization and it's Discontents by Stiglitz, and it was definitely eye opening.

Yes it is protectionism, and I simply don't have a problem with that. And while I do care about poverty in other nations, I care more what's going on in this country and I think some protectionism is long overdue.

I will agree with you that a portion of the downturn is due to automation. We can't predict right now, and I won't waste my time trying to - what effect robotics will have on employment or wages.

I guess we aren't going to change each other's minds, but thank you for sharing your viewpoints.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

27. You said...

..everything I was going to say.

Thank you.

[DanTex]

32. I also used to work at a tech company alongside H1B visa holders.

And it was a great experience. They were good at their jobs, and they were happy to be there, and we were happy to have them, and I was personally happy to have made friendships with them. I'm sure there are abuses, but there are also plenty of cases where H1Bs are win-win, which is what I witnessed.

Also, in my experience, it is indeed difficult to find enough Americans with good skills in science/engineering fields. IMO it's a cultural thing. There just isn't (or at least wasn't when the current workforce was in school) a culture of valuing math and science here as there is in some other countries. Smart young Americans tend towards things like law and business more than they do science.

I take your points, but they are all highly debatable. IMO there's no doubt that free trade has both contributed to decline of wages in the US and also helped increase wages and reduce poverty globally. Trying to determine how much of each is a difficult problem.

At a high level though, I'd say this. First, the stagnation in wages and decline in manufacturing began well before the globalization/free trade agreement era. Second, for one reason or another, global poverty has declined dramatically, and the global middle class, meaning about the 20-80th earning percentiles globally, have seen dramatically improved incomes. Of course, not all developing countries that have opened their markets have seen improvement, and some have gotten screwed. But by and large, I think most people would agree that workers in developing countries that have embraced trade have fared better than workers in developing countries that have not.

I'm curious what you think of the automation analogy I made. Automation is another thing that is definitely hurting manufacturing jobs (IMO more than trade, but like all things it's debatable). And nobody is willing to just come out and argue that we should impose a penalty tax on companies that build more highly automated (and therefore more efficient) plants that require less workers to create the same amount of output. But the thing is, people who lose their jobs to robots are no less hurt than people who lose their jobs to trade. And at least with offshoring, there are other people working (often more people, since plants in third-world countries are more labor-intensive than here).

Nobody makes that argument because they don't want to come off as "against progress" or "against science." But if we drop the value system that says "technology good", and just focus on job effects, I don't see that the argument against it is much different in principle than the argument against free trade.

[Baobab]

35. They need to clean up their own corruption and we need to clean up ours.

They were given all sorts of promises as far as economic integration but those promises were made by US politicians who were hiding those promises from the US people who had also been promises the same "things" (jobs).

[timmymoff]

19. I'm betting the haitians

love that Hillary lobbied to keep minimum wage low. Millionaires like Hill and Bill always have the best interest of the poor in mind. Bankruptcy votes, welfare reform, opposing even our fight for $15 , she sure managed to get up on the stage, after all she did start fighting for $15 on April 4th and look it became law in New York. You remind me of David Brock only slightly less intelligent

[Lucinda]

3. Thanks for the link!

[Avalon Sparks]

5. And if your poor in this country....

The scariest thing is a Repug or Neoliberal DLC

Let's get the US up and running and then focus on other countries.

[St Aug girl]

10. What Avalon Sparks said.

Us first then the rest of the world.

[jillan]

7. It is unbelievably sad that people, esp liberals, do not understand the difference between

Free Trade and Fair Trade.

Bernie is for Fair Trade as are most liberals & progressives.

[Avalon Sparks]

11. It really is Jillian

Fair trade not a Free trade!

[Bluenorthwest]

16. The OP is not a libreal but rather a come what may moderate, white, straight, male and a NYC dweller

The OP rather habitually attempts to exploit other groups of people as meat puppet props used to advance his self serving agenda.

[revbones]

28. ^^ BOOM ^^

Exactly. Any attack will do. Some just worship at the idol of Hillary and don't care about her policies - and spout forth any conservative or right-wing claptrap against progressive policies if they think it supports Hillary.

[gollygee]

37. +1

The OP is an economic libertarian position.

[katsy]

12. OTOH allowing corporations to pay poverty

wages in 3rd world countries enriches no one but themselves, not the laborers.

It's a big mistake to allow corporations to dictate trade policy to govt's.

If corporations want to open markets let them employ the citizens of the market they want to open. Labor deserves a seat at the trade table. Bernie understands this. What, do you think we should level the playing field for all laborers, set a minimum wage at $.10 a day? Or $15.00 per hour? Somewhere in between? Investors want to pay $.10 a day then wreck havoc on the earths resources by using fossil fuels cross country and internationally to ship those products back to wealthier consumers. In what mad max world is that even sustainable?

I have no proof but I suspect we're paying off many a political whore in other countries to keep their citizens in slavery. Why else would these fucking goons not negotiate better terms for their countrymen?

Then there's this... electing a president for which country are we? Until we all get to vote for one world president, maybe our president should pay attention to us.

Maybe it won't happen in my lifetime but at some point people are going to revolt against this corruption and collusion between corporations and government.

[NWCorona]

13. As apposed to Hillary and the .31 cents per hour deals for Hati?

Yes, when more jobs are brought back home. People in other countries will unfortunately suffer.

[Skwmom]

14. I notice a pattern. To defend corporate exploitation they use the victims they are exploiting n/t

[Avalon Sparks]

22. They have no shame

Excellent observation, really sums it up.

To defend corporate exploitation they use the victims they are exploiting.

[florida08]

17. How ridiculous

Put a tariff on the goods coming in (like China) then use it to raise wages in that country. We are never going to stop corporations from exploiting cheap labor but we can put some restrictions & taxes on them. As they raise their wages we lift the tariffs. Does anyone remember when Chinese workers were jumping to their deaths?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/foxconn-employee-jumps-death-southwest-china-article-1.1095686

[DanTex]

20. That's absurd. Putting tariffs on goods coming in from China would most definitely

not raise wages there, it would lower them, because factories would close and there would be less jobs there to go around.

[Waiting For Everyman]

41. And if those factories paid workers more

then the Chinese would begin to develop their own consumer economy to sell to their own people. That is how it is done in any country, not by bringing cheap labor goods here.

[libtodeath]

25. You are happy with mostly minorities working for just over what would be considered slavery?

[libtodeath]

26. Another progressive value thrown away.

[PufPuf23]

29. The trans-national corporations benefit from free trade agreements

rather then the poor in developing nations.

Free trade is a nice model that does not translate well in the real world and is exploited by the trans-national corporations.

Fair trade would raise the benefit to poor people in developing countries with natural resources and/or excess labor.

Some of the most poor would in the short term suffer but no where near as much or as long as when there is war.

Fair trade by definition is to raise the benefits to the poor and limits the ability of the trans-national corporations to exploit the poor and the environment.

[think]

30. Hillary's State Dept helped force the Haitian govt to overturn a minimum wage increase to $.61 /hour

I'm sure the people of Haiti really appreciated that....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511663687

[vintx]

43. DAMN!

[Motown_Johnny]

31. You sound like a supply sider

That would explain a lot.

[DanTex]

33. Not at all. In fact, "supply-sider" has not much to do with free trade.

Supply-siders believe that reducing taxes on the wealthy will have magical effects on growth and actually increase government revenue. It's voodoo, but it's not really related to the free trade debate.

[Motown_Johnny]

36. You seem to believe that moving a Chrysler plant to some third world country helps them.

That is a supply side argument.


You need to ask yourself why would Chrysler move there. Simple. Because they can exploit those workers more than they can workers in a developed nation. Also, they can damage the environment more easily with fewer financial repercussions.


Huge multi-national mega corporations are not doing those third world workers any favors. You need to try to comprehend the damage they are doing.

[vintx]

44. It's unreal to see this shit having to be explained here.

[reddread]

39. /labor contractor

[hobbit709]

38. Another Bernie slamming taurine metabolic byproducts OP from the usual.

[Joob]

40. Wow, I hope you spread that article everywhere.

Just so everyone can see how stupid it is.

[vintx]

42. So people here just flat out use RW talking points.

I see.

[My Good Babushka]

45. To believe that

you would have to believe that there is no way preferable to corporate colonialism, that exploits the resources and labor of poor countries and transfers more wealth to the already wealthy. There are better, sustainable, fairer alternatives.

[hobbit709]

46. The poor in this country should be scared of everything Hillary says.

[NobodyHere]

47. I'd rather have Bernie help the American poor

instead of trying to fix the world.