2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumOn Chris Hayes, James Carville is "vexed" as to why people support
Bernie Sanders, saying Bernie is not a Democrat.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)kcjohn1
(751 posts)Everything is going so well, why change it?
I'm pretty sure its going well for him and other insiders. Can't say the same for the average Joe.
hollowdweller
(4,229 posts)His problem is he's still thinking about the overall economy which is doing ok instead of the economic well being of the majority of voters.
Right now a lot of younger people are being helped by their parents who still hung ten on the end of the American dream before it went over the cliff.
Once the young people of today are trying to help their kids and they have nothing themselves prepare for the real socialist revolution.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)"everything is going well" - except for the structures of society and economy being UNTENABLE!
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)"I am proud to report, that the country as a whole is prosperous. I don't mean by that, that the whole country is prosperous... but as a whole... as a whole, it is prosperous. Now a hole is not supposed to be prosperous... and we are certainly in a hole.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,874 posts)elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)Fact.
dchill
(38,556 posts)True story.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)douche-bag to you sir!
tokenlib
(4,186 posts)dchill
(38,556 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)although I do appreciate his - uh - "honesty" in admitting that he's only running on the Dem ticket for the media coverage.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Enjoy your healthcare!
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)My "perspective" is that of a US citizen who resides in Canada - and as a US citizen, I VOTE.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)If he had chosen to, Bernie could have been a spoiler that was a REAL spoiler in November.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)... I doubt it.
Bernie's supporters have been complaining from day one of his campaign that there is a "media blackout", that he doesn't get the coverage he deserves.
How much media coverage do you think BS would have gotten as an independent? Without the exposure that he got from the Dem debates, how much money would have poured into his campaign coffers? How many people would even know he was running? And without that money, how long do you think his campaign would have lasted?
I realize we're both in "we'll never really know" territory. But given what we BOTH know about the MSM, Bernie running as an independent probably would not have garnered media coverage other than "and then there's this crazy guy from Vermont who thinks he can compete with the two established parties, the Democrats and Republicans".
I am not saying that characterization would be fair or justified. But you can't ignore the fact that without his place on the Dem ticket, Bernie would never have gotten anywhere near where he is right now.
If the media is "ignoring" him now, how much more would they have ignored him as an Indy?
The Dem debates were Bernie's chance to be introduced to millions of people who would otherwise never know who he is, or what his platform encompasses. Imagine his campaign without having had that opportunity. And virtually NO publicity would have garnered virtually NO contributions to fund his campaign.
As BS himself said, he ran on the Democratic ticket for the media attention. He KNOWS that that attention would never have existed otherwise.
So no, Bernie would not have been a "real spoiler" in November. With all of the attendant publicity he's received by virtue of running on the Dem ticket, he's still losing to Hillary. Without that publicity, he probably would have been forced to drop out a long time ago due to lack of funds.
Bernie entered this race saying "nobody knows who I am" - who do you think would have "known" him had he not had the advantage of running as a Dem?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)It is speculative.
As for whether running as a Democrat was opportunistic --- yeah, sure it was. I have no problem with someone using the system to advance political goals. That's kind of what parties are for, to provide an infrastructure for candidates....And in many ways, he has been an ally of the Democrats in Congress.
And I also think he is being totally honest when he said he also chose to run as a Democrat because he did not want to be a 3rd party spoiler that would help the GOP.
As for what would have happened if he'd run as an independent.....Well, he's no Ralph Nader. He is a member of the Senate, and he does have a degree of charisma that appeals to many more people.
Even Sanders was surprised at how his campaign caught fire.
If he had run 3rd Party, the degree of excitement and support he has generated would have gotten a share of media attention, and -- considering how boring the Democratic primary would have been without him -- he would have added another level of intrigue. And, if he had not had to worry about winning a primary, he could have had a guaranteed run through November, and would have been a significant "player" and would have put a big dent in the Democrats turnout in November.
dchill
(38,556 posts)I sure do.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)dchill
(38,556 posts)MY point is that your point, as usual, is biased and prejudicial. I, too, am a Democrat, and Bernie Sanders and I both say that he's a Democrat, for the purpose of putting this party back into Democratic and democratic hands.
Lunabell
(6,117 posts)We want a progressive party that gives to the people and uplifts the middle class. We needed Bernie to excite the party or this tired old party will just turn into Republican lite.
Loudestlib
(980 posts)oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Whose ideals does Bernie Sanders adhere to most closely? Republicans, or Democrats?
For fuck's sake... you people do glom on to stupid meaningless shit.
NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)... whose ideals BS adheres to most closely. And if he thought that were the case, why wasn't THAT his answer when asked why he's running as a Democrat?
He has demeaned the Democratic Party for decades, and admitted that the only reason he's running on the Dem ticket is because he knew he'd get more media coverage that way.
If you think dissing a party for years - and then using it to advance your own political ambitions is some kind of admirable "ideal" - you go right ahead and think that.
I recognize a self-serving opportunist when I see one - especially when that opportunist openly admits it. Bernie's own statement leaves little room for discussion about his "ideals".
RANGERMAN89
(91 posts)Apparently it is a sin to criticize or evaluate our elected officials. Apparently it is a sin to disagree with the people in power. You can stick your nose in the air and talk about party purity all day long but thankfully the youth of this nation will eventually destroy the scum like Hillary and other establishment hacks who send our children on false crusades like they(including Hillary) did to me. Hillary can call herself a fighter all day long but she didn't fight for me when the Iraq war vote came up. I won't support someone who authorized the death of my friends for a lie because she was tricked by G.W Bush or worse who thought that the war was a good business investment.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Then why do you support Hillary?
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Apparently her observational skills aren't as sharp as she thinks.
Logical
(22,457 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)... but am not a Canadian citizen. I'm a US citizen, and vote via absentee ballot in my home state of NY.
Logical
(22,457 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)Kentonio
(4,377 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)All Canadian residents do, whether citizens or not.
My husband (also a US citizen) passed away last year from cancer. He had in-home care - visiting doctors, nurses, physical therapists, nutritionists, social workers - and, in the end, hospital care. The gov't supplied us with canes, a walker, a wheelchair, a shower seat, etc. - even sent a personal care worker three times a week to help around the house with laundry and other household duties, so that my time was free to spend with my husband in his last days.
This cost us nothing. Had we been living in the States, we would have literally been bankrupted by the doctors' bills and hospital bills alone. And we never could have afforded the "extras" I've outlined above.
In addition, my husband's meds - which ran over $1,000 a month - were covered as well.
This system works, and it works extremely well.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)She actively supports someone who fights it.
Sickening.
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,820 posts)Of course, this is the same man who once said: "It would be hypocritical of me to run as a Democrat because of the things I have said about the party."
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Hate is an ugly thing. Especially when it is for a good person and for a bad reason.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)dflprincess
(28,086 posts)beedle
(1,235 posts)Isn't it always the way? There's always some excuse for why the middle class needs to be patient and wait its turn .... "we just need you to sacrifice your needs for the good of the whole (ie: establishment) until we can afford to deal with your problems, right now we have bigger problems to deal with (ie: our power)"
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)I am a longtime member of the democratic wing of Democratic Party- Warren wing is ascendant, Carville should pack it up --
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)incredible.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)and it's the voters' fault
right
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)movements like Bernie's and the ones that follow. But you DLCers continue what you're doing. You're turning people away and blaming them.
And that's good for the other half of the Democratic Party
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,345 posts)dchill
(38,556 posts)And the other half is just revolting.
Segami
(14,923 posts)BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)Carville, Begala, Tucker Carlson and Robert Novak.
The night Jon Stewart went on CNN's Crossfire and tore Begala and Carlson new assholes for putting on a bullshit show that lowered the quality of American political discourse 5 nights a week was a great moment in TV history.
longship
(40,416 posts)Within a month or so, Crossfire was deader than a Tyson chicken.
And bow tie guy's bow tie is still spinning like a propeller.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Some weird form of campaign strategy that looks kind of desperate.
He and the Clintons' other charm boy Barney Frank are not dong her any favors with their asshole behavior.
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)go home and whittle something you clod hopper asshole.
BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)I saw a couple of minutes of him and he looked as bitter and past his sell by date as Bill Clinton.
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)and to think I used to like these con men.
noretreatnosurrender
(1,890 posts)Bernie is not - gasp/swoon - a Democrat. Wow James...you made news. I had no idea the guy who supports my views as a long time Democrat is NOT A DEMOCRAT.
Guess what James...we KNOW THAT. We know he doesn't have the D after his name (except of course in this Primary). But guess what James, I'm voting for him because of his position on the issues not for the "D" after his name. Blue Dog Democrats have a "D" after their name. I don't vote for them either. I vote for the candidate who most closely represents my position on the issues. Yeah, I know it's weird but some of us actually DO our research. We know which candidate supports us and which one just pretends to support us during an election.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)Unwanted Democrat
(18 posts)is quite stark.
After all, I don't marry Republicans to begin with. You have never learned what a Democrat in your life was. Don't give a shit if you helped Clinton in '92, it still won't happen in '16.
killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)Nanjeanne
(5,002 posts)BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)Really? But don't you think Hillary wants those things too?
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Funtatlaguy
(10,889 posts)He caucuses with the Dems.
He is the most progressive Senator.
His brand of Democratic Socialism is now right for the times.
He is the best version of what a true FDR type of Democrat should be.
He is not a watered down dlc version.
potone
(1,701 posts)They can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact that Democrats expect the party to represent our interests, rather than us representing the party. This began with the DLC and Bill Clinton's presidency. It needs to end, now!
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)season that's defined by insurgent, anti-establishment sentiment. In both the Republican and Democratic races, establishment hacks keep offering various forms of 'he's not even in our club!', as if that's not a huge plus to most voters.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts). . . as to why he married a Republican.
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)PatrickforO
(14,593 posts)I've always thought he's kind of crazy. And he LOVES those Clintons.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Right up there with shoe size, color of eyes, and whether he/she likes parakeets.
R B Garr
(16,993 posts)do nothing but attack Hillary. He made a lot of sense.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)It was the best impression of Carville I have ever seen.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)dflprincess
(28,086 posts)it's you and your Third Way/DLC/"New" Democrats who aren't really Democrats.
Bernie is more a Democrat than you could even pretend to be.
Agony
(2,605 posts)tired of listening to his neoliberal crap
dchill
(38,556 posts)Well, right, he's no Zell Miller.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)dchill
(38,556 posts)He's MY kind of Democrat, for sure. He's been more of a Democrat than most in congress for decades.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)to coordinate ways to make sure prison cells keep getting filled with medical marijuana users.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Looks like many does not have anything good to say about Bernie, why is this happening?
R B Garr
(16,993 posts)that leadership is needed by someone interested in supporting other Democrats and not just himself.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)R B Garr
(16,993 posts)being realistic and not worrying about massaging Bernie just right. Why have a non-Democrat for a job leading Democrats. So happy to hear that common sense from someone like him.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)his caucusing with the Democrats entitled him to committee assignments and at times gave Democrats a majority.
TM99
(8,352 posts)It would have been oh so simple to tell Sanders, sorry, while you do caucus with us, raise money for us, and chair committee's for us, you have never been a formal member of the Democratic Party. You can not run as one.
But they didn't. Therefore, he is here, and he is running as a Democrat. Furthermore he has a lot of leftist independent and formal party member supporters. He polls better than anyone against ALL GOP candidates. And in less than a year, he is within mere points of tying Clinton for national support.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Primary? Yes he could have told no but the DNC is better than telling him no. Why do you think he polls better in kick ups with GOP, because the GOP wants to run in the GE rather than Hillary, the same reason Rove's PAC is running ads against Hillary.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I asked.
This is called deflection. It is a common attempt to steer the conversation away from a topic for which the poster has no cogent reply.
The DNC allowed him to run, therefore, attacks against him as a 'non Democrat' should also be views as attacks against the Party machine as well as proof of a Clinton bias.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)to get media coverage.
TM99
(8,352 posts)can y'all?
It is no wonder Clinton is the candidate of choice as she pivots like a ballerina on any direct question.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"it's her turn!"
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Excuses on his bad votes, no, I do not buy the excuses.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Y'all just have conversations in your own heads with no input or response from real people outside of your bubble.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)own creation are not truths or facts.
But hey enjoy yourself.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)this on her own. I am very happy to back Hillary.
Contrary1
(12,629 posts)Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Because they had already decided to let Hillary run as a Democrat, too!
Boo-yah!
TM99
(8,352 posts)Good one!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)on all-important matters like making sure sick people keep getting sent to prison for using medical marijuana.
Something is rotten in DNC-mark.
global1
(25,278 posts)obsolete. They are out of a job because all of Washinton will be changed.
So what do you think a Carville would say to Hayes?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)is the fact that Hayes asked this man onto his
show, when he should know that Carville is just
there because he craves attention.
MSNBC has become a total sell out.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)I don't watch MSNBC anymore, so I can't see why Chris would ask James on to his show unless James has something else to sell.
tokenlib
(4,186 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 5, 2016, 12:36 AM - Edit history (1)
The New Dem/Third Way people know damn well that the real enemy to their power is the New Deal progressive wing of the party. After over TWO DECADES Bernie comes along and threatens to derail the Hillary Express. So they attack his character, ignore him ,slime him, slam his supporters, minimize his movement, "unicornize" his ideas, "pipe dream" his chances, "spoilerize" his staying in the race even when all votes are not cast... Hillary's time has come, and she might get rejected....OH MY!!
SisterSarah
(30 posts)Independents who left the Democratic Party long ago were forced to re-enter in closed primary states and Bernie Sanders is the only reason.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)Pot, meet kettle.
SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)also - he does not like it if you dance on his tables
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)"Bernie would have been a mainstream Democrat in 1900."
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)He and his wife have both pretty much done disappearing acts, thank God.
djean111
(14,255 posts)than a job and/or performance art. All about the money.
This what the bottom of the Clinton campaign barrel looks like.
frustrated_lefty
(2,774 posts)is an Edwin Edwards wannabe. He might be more astute if he weren't bedded with that republican sheister.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Carville hasn't been relevant for about 20 frickin' years!
If they really want to televise someone spewing their nonsensical, daydreaming musings about the future, they should interview his wife!!
Get her back in front of the cameras!!
I'd like to see her try to defend Trump or Cruz!
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)That those principles have been thrown under the bus by the last few "Democratic" presidents does not mean that they are not bedrock to what it means to be a Democrat. Clinton tried to redefine what it means to be a Democrat with his Third Way, neo-liberal hogwash which made the Party a pale reflection of the Republican Party. Just because a politician has a "D" after his/her name does not make him/her a true Democrat in my mind if they do not adhere to the bedrock principles that separate the true Democrats from Republicans and Republican wantabees. Bernie has always walked the walk and talked the talk of a true Democrat. That he put an "I" after his name made him no less a Democrat.
This newest meme from the Hillary camp will blow up in their face as the reason that Bernie is so popular is that he has not been part of the sell-outs in the Party. Highlighting this will only energize those people voting Democratic who simply vote Democratic without any thought or insight...those who would vote for Hillary anyway.
The largest block of voters now are Independents. Guess who the recent meme will further energize for Bernie: The Independents.
Seriously, Hillary's campaign is almost an embarrassment. Can't anyone there anticipate the impact of the stuff they throw at Bernie? Are they living in a bubble, an echo chamber? These Rovian moves are just not working!
Cobalt Violet
(9,905 posts)what an ass.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)If he cared about policy as much as he does about the "great game of politics", he would not be able to stand that wife of his.
But it is a game for him. He loves politics above all else.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)He's the ultimate insider - hired gun for any side that pay$. Part of the dinosaur media establishment, oblivious to the shift to online and information vs spin.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)All these "he's not a rrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeal Democrat" pissers and moaners will demand he not caucus with us, as he always has in the past.
I'm sure.
shawn703
(2,702 posts)It's going to take an outsider to right the wrongs you and your ilk have perpetrated on the Democratic Party.
MaeScott
(878 posts)Carville knows that Sanders is one of those "better" Dems that the party sorely lacks.
Sky Masterson
(5,240 posts)He is married to Mary Joe Matalin (born August 19, 1953) is an American political consultant well known for her work with the Republican Party. She has served under President Ronald Reagan, was campaign director for George H.W. Bush, was an assistant to President George W. Bush, and counselor to Vice President Dick Cheney until 2003.
Vinca
(50,313 posts)Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)So, how do you remove their influence from the Democratic Party and the Republican Party?
Public funding of all elections, disallow any person or group or corporation from donating to a political candidate.
Not sure how you would constitutionally deal with PAC's and their advertising, though.
Lifelong Protester
(8,421 posts)Or be vexed!
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)Then make a case from her wardrobe from the 90's till now to "prove" a point. Last I checked there are people working 40 hours who are broke as hell. There are people who's jobs have been taken from them and shipped to (insert third world shit-hole here). If the establishment can't figure out why Sanders is so popular and have to resort to logical fallacies to get everyone to like Clinton then their goose is cooked.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)That sort of political incestuousness certainly explains a lot about the current state of the Democratic Party.