If you're registered as an Independent, then you have no right to complain about the Dem party

[Yavin4]

Last edited Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:39 PM - Edit history (1)

If you're not a member of the party, then you cannot complain about the order of the primaries, the caucuses, the Super Delegates, the debate schedule, NOTHING. You're not a member of the party, then you cannot complain about the rules of the party.

The Dem party is designed to service those who are members of the party. Those who have put in the time and effort to build it. You didn't want to be a part of that process, so now you want to file list of complaints? That's absurd.

--On edit--

For those who disagree, if you were in a union, paid your dues, attend meetings, etc., you would be okay with someone outside of the union having a voice on what your union should and should not do, and who gets to lead the union?

[HumanityExperiment]

1. Troll bait...

another 'party' over principle OP eh?

[Yavin4]

2. You want to take advantage of the work that others have done

so that it benefits you. Got it.

[HumanityExperiment]

16. Nope...

My reply here sums it up: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511595454#post13

[roguevalley]

19. If independents don't have a right to complain about the dems, then dems don't have a right to

complain about republicans. See how this works? It doesn't. Anyone can complain about anyone. First amendment.

[Scuba]

57. End. Thread. Here.

[840high]

64. Bingo

[brush]

80. But dems aren't trying to vote in repug pimaries to pick their candidates.

Big difference.

[ContinentalOp]

110. You can complain about their policies and behaviors in office.

But why would you complain about their internal party business and rules? I've never once given any thought to how the republicans conduct their primaries. Why would I care? It doesn't affect me in the slightest because I'm not a republican.

[LonePirate]

4. On a website that champions the Democratic Party, the OP makes a fair point.

This is not Independents Underground.

[HumanityExperiment]

13. Makes a point...

'fair' is debatable

it's a swipe at those grass root elements that the DEM party should be seeking to grow the party not exclude

the current system has flaws, exposing and discussing those flaws should be occurring, not trying to be rammed down peoples throats to protect certain candidates

[LonePirate]

21. Most of the things you're railing against are set by state legislatures, like registration deadlines

Your anger is misdirected by lashing out at the party.

[HumanityExperiment]

22. Role of Super delegates...

...for instance

[roguevalley]

60. this also isn't fascist underground either. we are either the party for the first amendment or we're

the other guys. If you can't complain about dems, then dems can't complain about repugs.

[LonePirate]

63. Where did the OP say complaints against Dems were forbidden?

If you want to complain about Dems, simply be a Dem is what the OP is saying.

If Independents want to join the discussions here, then great. They should not be making demands or blackmailing Dems for their votes.

[jeff47]

75. Read the fine print from when you signed up.

You don't have to be a Democrat to post here.

[LonePirate]

93. Correct, but Dems don't have to listen or cater to Independents regarding a Dem primary system.

If Independents don't like it, they can change their party affiliation to Democrat and enact some changes.

Personally, I think Dems need to ignore everything a registered Independent has to say. I know I don't care to hear from them regarding the Dem primary process. Let them go join the Repubs if they think the Dems are so bad.

[jeff47]

94. They do if those Democrats want to win the general election.

Democrats are 30% of the electorate. Unless you'd like to explain your master plan to win elections with 30% of the vote, you're going to have to listen to Independents.

[LonePirate]

96. No, they don't. Dems do not need to be blackmailed by Independents.

They can change party affiliation if they want to change the Dem primary system. Otherwise, they can try that crap with Repubs and see how successful they are.

[jeff47]

98. How'd that plan work in 2014?

Not so well. How'd that plan work in 2010? Not so well. How'd that plan work in 2004? Not so well. How'd that plan work in 2002? Not so well. How'd that plan work in 2000? Not so well.

How 'bout we stop using that plan?

[LonePirate]

103. I'd rather lose than be blackmailed. It's all about principles, correct?

Those losses were not due to Independents voting R. They were due to Ds staying home.

[jeff47]

111. No, D's did not stay home. Independents stayed home.

Independents are actually two groups: Democratic-leaning independents and Republican-leaning independents. They will never cross over to the other party. They will either vote for their -leaning party, or stay home.

Democrats turned out in 2010 and 2014. Lower than 2008 and 2012, but still pretty good. The massive drop in turnout was among Democratic-leaning independents.

Btw, both groups of independents are to the left of their associated party. So the upcoming "pivot to center" is exactly the wrong thing for Democrats to do. But our party has a very big problem believing the country is not full of Republicans.

[Kip Humphrey]

23. Oh let them shit on Independents. We'll see what that approach gets them.

[LonePirate]

52. If Independents would prefer living in America under Pres. Trump, then it's their own fault.

[salinsky]

81. If you are politically aware ...

... and, you vote Repuke, or third party, or choose not to vote ...

... then you have no principle of which to speak.

[Attorney in Texas]

3. When the Democrat loses for a lack of independent support, then you will have not right to complain

[LonePirate]

9. Luckily that won't happen in 2016 regardless of the Dem nominee.

[RKP5637]

14. Exactly! The democratic party is a minority. Without the independent vote democrats could not win.

I am contemplating a change to I, since I do not support/agree with the DNC/DWS/DLC.

[Karma13612]

24. Wow, those stats are telling me that

we are pretty close to having to change the dynamic of the predominantly two party system.

I can see the day, very soon, where, if you only have the Dems and the Repubs voting in the presidential election, there won't be enuf votes by either candidate to win the election.

[RKP5637]

36. If that were to occur, things might progress better, since what we have now is a perpetual domestic

argument between the D's and R's, and endless grid lock. I don't think it's very healthy at all the way it is. And those discounting the independent vote really apparently do not understand the statistics of party affiliation in the US. I register D so I can vote in the primaries. But the new democratic party continues to leave me with the DNC/DWS/DLC. For the most part I do not support their views. And millions of people are fed up with both the R and D establishment. I always vote, however, for the D nominee. In the future, I might change to I, but I will still support and vote for the D party candidates. I just get tired of the DNC/DWS/DLC thinking by the numbers I'm in the bag for them!

[Karma13612]

50. +100 eom

[840high]

65. .+1

[Svafa]

5. Good thing I live in an open primary state,

where nobody has to take a loyalty oath to any party. Partywise, I'm not registered as jack shit, and I'm happy that way. However, I have voted dem across the board every election, so I believe that does entitle me to have an opinion on the party and how it operates.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

6. Then Bernie Sanders should drop out and run as an independent... Bet you'd like that too nt

[debunction.junction]

74. That would be very interesting.

Theoretically, if Bernie ran as an Independent, and if all the Republicans voted Republican, and if all the Democrats voted Democrat, and if all the Independents voted Independent, Bernie would win with 43% of the vote. The same percentage that Bill Clinton won the Presidency with.

[Lucinda]

7. Yep.

[G_j]

8. registering as a Dem

Doesn't mean you took part in the process.

[hobbit709]

10. Loyalty oaths are so 1950's.

[morningfog]

12. Great! I'm a Democrat, so I'm relieved you'll allow me to complain.

[Jbradshaw120]

15. What about us dems in stares like montana

That don't have party registration? Am I to shut up and sit down as well?

[Bettie]

17. I'm a registered Democrat

and I can and will complain about a party that is no longer interested in serving anyone but the very, very rich members of the party and the corporations they pay fealty to. Down here at the peon level, no one in the party leadership gives a single fuck what we think or care about.

[angrychair]

34. As a life long Dem

I second this motion and move to consider all issues from Independents voting as Democrats.

Is that allowed or only "certain" Democrats allowed to make motions?

[RKP5637]

37. K&R !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TheCowsCameHome]

18. But you sure liked my past votes for Dem candidates, didn't you?

And you'll be looking for all you can get in November, especially if HRC is the nominee.

[Vinca]

20. Great post. Makes me want to change my affiliation to Independent.

[RKP5637]

40. Yep! Same here! n/t

[Karma13612]

25. Yea, right. there are more independents now than Democrats.

Wait until the day that all independents stay home on presidential election day, and it's left to the dems and repubs.

There might not be enuf from either party to win the election.

You still want to tell Independents to go away??

[tk2kewl]

26. so by that logic no democrat has a right ...

to complain about the Republican party either

[Yavin4]

43. Um, we don't complain about them. We run against them.

Kinda of the point.

[Art_from_Ark]

66. And when there's no election, we just don't say anything about them

LOL

[840high]

67. DU sure as heck

complains about them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Soon the Ds will have the same trouble keepign the lights on in CA

as the Rs. can't wait. And it is partly due to these attitudes.

Literally puts a smile in my face.

[daleanime]

28. It's not like it's half of the only two "approved" parties....

in our system or anything, baka.

[Art_from_Ark]

86. LOL

I saw what you did there

[Bjornsdotter]

29. Does this mean if you are a registered Democrat

....you can't complain about Trump, Cruz, and everything Republican?

[BillZBubb]

30. That was clever sarcasm, yavin!

Oh wait, you are serious? Yeah, let's slam the door on constructive criticism and we can keep losing membership to the ranks of the independents.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. Sure I do.

As the two halves of the duopoly have granted themselves super-constitutional powers to regulate elections and monopolize control of the governments of the states and the nation, I, as a citizen, have every right to criticize the fuck out of their collusion in corrupt practices.

In my state I also have the right to register at the poll and vote in their corrupt elections, so even if I accept your nonsense assertion, I am granted the right to complain about their crap even under your terms, due to my 20 minutes as an official Democrat every two years.

'kay?

[WheelWalker]

32. Well, "right to complain", yes... right to have Democrats listen, not so much.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

33. Here's a thought: All of you stop whining about the others and agree to come together

and "votebluenomatterwho

[hollysmom]

35. yes yes - shrink that tent! fewer democrats that is just what we need - brilliant!

[basselope]

38. Sure we do.

[Purveyor]

41. In this country, I have to 'right' to complain about whatever the fuck I want! Pack your shit and

move to another if you don't like it.

[demmiblue]

42. So you are saying that people who consistently vote for dems should have absolutely no say?

You do realize that there are millions of us who are not registered dems (due to state laws), don't you?

Good grief, the ignorance is strong.

[cyberswede]

44. Meh. People complain about shit they're not members of all the time.

See: every sports team in history.

[cosmicone]

45. Bunch of sniveling crybabies n/t

[ibegurpard]

46. I'm a Democrat

And my state has open primaries and I say they can. So shut it.

[ViseGrip]

47. Gee, even in states with open primaries and they choose to support us democrats? As voters, they

certainly do have a right to a free and fair elections.

Democrats are not the only ones that are to have fair elections. Just look at you call your own self out here....it's undemocratic to say this.

[jillan]

48. Yes- shut up. So what if you are 1/3 of the voters & you do not tow the party line, be quiet.

[aidbo]

49. I think the 'right to complain' is covered by the first amendment.

'Grounds to complain' would be more accurate.

Whether one's complaint is taken seriously is another thing all together.

[asuhornets]

51. PREACH!!!!!! N/T

[smiley]

53. no it means you have more of right to complain about both parties.

[arcane1]

54. Then you can't complain about republicans unless you're a registered republican.

See how silly that sounds?

[bigwillq]

55. YES!

Registered DEM here. I'm allowed to COMPLAIN! Woo Hoo!

This registered DEM dislikes caucuses and supports open primaries.
This registered DEM supports getting rid of super delegates and delegates and supports letting the popular vote -- and only the popular vote -- decide a primary, even if it means the candidates I support may never win another election.

YAY!

I love complaining!

[peace13]

56. If folks in this country can carry a gun wherever they want...

...I think a person has the right to complain with words about anything that's on their minds.

[frylock]

58. It's shit like this that makes me smile at the abysmally low membership rate of your Party.

Hovering right around 30% and dropping.

[Aerows]

59. I am a registered Democrat.

The first time I was eligible to vote in a Presidential primary was in 1992, and I voted for Bill Clinton. I voted for him in the GE, and have always voted for the Democratic nominee.

That said, I think primary voters this time around have had plenty to fuss about. The crap that went on in Arizona is just the most egregious example - there have been issues with many polling places.

If you are a registered Democrat, and you go to vote only to find your registration has been flipped to something like a Libertarian or a Republican, you have every right to scream to high heaven.

If you do not take exception to loyal Democrats being unable to vote in the primary because of registration flipping, or lack of polling places, you are saying that you are just fine with voter suppression.

I sure as hell am not fine with what has been going on during this Primary.

[Punkingal]

61. Ha!

Who put you in charge? I'm still a Democrat, but if I were an independent, I would complain if I chose. We have free speech in this country. At least for now.

[Bluenorthwest]

62. I'm a Democrat who values the input and hopes for the votes of independent voters

but then again, I've got actual principles and a desire to improve both the Party and myself.

[Autumn]

68. Anyone who votes for democrats has every fucking right to complain about the dem party

Don't like it? Tough shit. Independents have helped win elections.

[CharlotteVale]

84. +100000

[casperthegm]

69. Independent voters are growing in number- you should be courting them

Not trying to exclude them. If the Democratic party expects to survive and grow it should be paying attention to why more and more people are becoming independent.

[speaktruthtopower]

70. Uh..

you're not born with a "D", "I" or "R" on your forehead, and Independents are needed to win elections.

[MisterP]

71. if they're set up to thwart and ignore their membership, to make voices irrelevant

then many are going to, y'know, leave

I'm not in yellow unions but I can still call 'em scabs

and since we're not Pubs, does that mean we can't criticize the RNC?

[Bleacher Creature]

72. Agree - 100%

I see that the Naderites aren't particularly happy with you, so I wanted to make sure you knew that at least some of us get it.

[SheenaR]

91. I don't think you do get it

Calling Independents who consistently vote Democrat "Naderites" is proof.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. Fortunately, we don't register by party in my state.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." Thomas Jefferson

[UMTerp01]

76. OP makes a good point

I complain about the Republican party but I don't vote for them....EVER!!!! An independent is not about to hijack the Democratic party. Start your own third party since we've had to hear ad nauseum that Independents are now the largest share of the electorate.

[jeff47]

79. So you want to lose repeatedly.

Democrats are 30% of the electorate.

Please explain your strategy to win with 30% of the vote.

[UMTerp01]

88. Wasn't the point of the OP

n/t

[jeff47]

92. That's because the OP is not dealing in reality.

The OP has repeatedly failed to explain how he will win elections with 30% of the electorate.

I was hoping you might have some sort of insight into how that can be pulled off, since the OP continues to fail to provide it.

[UMTerp01]

95. What I'm saying is I'm tired of the 2 party system

Truth be told I'm dissatisfied with the Democratic party and will never vote Republican. I wish we had 3 or 4 really powerful parties in this country instead of 2. But this is what the Democratic party is now and if you are an Independent and don't like it then start a legitimate 3rd party. The numbers are there. Lord knows the Dems and Repubs are in bed together to try and prevent this from happening though.

[jeff47]

97. So that post shouldn't be allowed on DU?

There you go, criticizing the Democratic party. The OP would ban that, btw. Previous incarnations of this OP have not specifically targeted independents, but instead have targeted all criticism.

[UMTerp01]

99. But I'm a Democrat

I either continue to ride the donkey out or switch to being an Independent and hope that someone runs as such that shares my values and political ideology.

[jeff47]

100. Again, this is not the first time the OP has broached this subject.

In most of his previous incarnations, he did not restrict his "you're not allowed to complain" to independents. He'd silence you just as much as he'd silence independents.

[UMTerp01]

104. Oh...well thats not right.

n/t

[jeff47]

77. I eagerly await the apology for everything you have ever said about Nader.

After all, you're not an independent, so you have no right to complain about him.

[Cheese Sandwich]

78. Nah. The 2 political parties are semi-governmental institutions.

They are gatekeepers to the political process. There's a public interest to making sure they are run well.

[dana_b]

82. really? Is there some Democratic "bill of rights" that says:

"only registered Democrats may complain about the Democratic party"? Do you have a copy and can you send a copy to this website because maybe they can upload it here for all of us to read.

You should tell the Republicans that they also can't complain about the Dems because it's against your rules. They've really been smacking you guys down. Did you know that?? They complain about the Dems ALL THE TIME!!

This must be tough for you.

[peacebird]

83. I have been a registered active Dem for 41 years. I CAN complain about DWS & HRC corruption

DWS is by the very rules of the DNC NOT allowed to take sides in a D campaign. But she did. Tulsi was forced to resign from the DNC to support Bernie.

The DLC/DNC/ThirdWay are corporatist warhawks. They are for the 1%, not the people.

Under them the Democratic party has left ME. And hell yes, I have the right to complain!

[ScreamingMeemie]

85. How about if my daughter registered as a Dem in Florida when she moved there,

voted in past Dem primaries...and then was told she was registered as an Independent when she went to vote again? Can she complain about the Dem party.

Newsflash: Anyone can complain about the Dem party. You are not the boss of us.

[malokvale77]

87. Living in a state where every voter is considered independent...

and being a life long Democratic voter, is it OK by you if I f@#king complain about the direction the Democratic Party is taking?

Never mind, I don't need your permission.

[Tom Rinaldo]

89. Ooops, that must mean I'm supposed to stop complaining about the Republican Party now n/t

[nichomachus]

90. So if you're registered as a Democrat, you can't complain

About Republicans, independents, Green Party?

What silly nonsense.

[awake]

101. My thoughts exactly + 1,000,000

[99Forever]

102. Did I miss another fucking memo?

You know, the fucking memo where you were appointed gatekeeper?

*drops the mic*

[1StrongBlackMan]

105. Posted to for later.

[Gothmog]

106. Democrats should get to decide who the the Democratic nominee is

I have been working inside the party for a very long time

[Gwhittey]

107. Another thread by the

Same poster who thinks there are only a 27K people in Ak,Wa,and Hawaii who voted.

[jeepers]

108. I have the right and the ability

to complain or critize anything I wish to critize. You have the right to take me seriously or to dismiss me. Take me seriously and I will take you seriously. Dismiss me and I will critize you.

[longship]

109. I am not registered as a member of any party.

Because Michigan, like in many states, there is no party registration allowed. Those would be the states with open primaries. When I was a Democratic committee person in KS it was required that I be registered as a Democrat, and indeed I was.

But this silly Democratic Party membership thing has gone by the wayside in many states which have no such thing. Just like in Vermont, where Bernie could not register as a Democrat if he tried.

The definition of who is or is not a Democrat has changed. It is now defined as somebody who votes for Democratic candidates. And even though neither Bernie nor I can register Democratic, nobody can accuse either of us as being essentially unDemocratic. I am also not in the legislature so I cannot even stake the claim of having caucused with the Democratic members for decades. Bernie can.

Would you all call people in a state where everybody is an independent a non-Democrat?

Silly argument that ignores the reality. Really.

[Bobbie Jo]

112. DU Rec

[Buns_of_Fire]

113. I'll make The Party a deal...

When they start paying my rent, buying my groceries, keeping the car running, and making sure the electricity stays on, I'll be happy to pledge my troth to them (and I don't even know what a "troth" IS!).

As it stands, I'm one of those horrible "left-leaning independents" who has somehow wound up voting for Democrats in every major election since I was first eligible to vote. Odd, that.

But as the republicans morph into batshit crazy and the Democrats morph into republicans, I think I'm just fine where I sit, even though The Party doesn't have any obligation to listen to a word I say. (BTW, The Party is under no obligation to listen to their OWN membership, either -- which is why they don't.)