2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumDear Sanders supporters
I am sick and tired of reading people who justify saying out-of-pocket stuff with the "you shouldn't be listening to what supporters say" excuse.
It's very weak tea.
At bottom, the very PRACTICE of politics is about communication and discussion in a community context.
The discussions we have here at DU (and other places) are every bit as valid a criterion as the discussion that take place in the agora, an inner circle of royal courtiers, or in a public square.
If many (I didn't say "most) of a particular candidates supporters says racist, sexist, homophobic or otherwise inappropriate or stupid shit, chances are that it is less likely that I will support that candidate.
I'm not saying that's the ONLY factor, only that it might BE a factor.
There are an entire range of influence on a range of decisions that are made based on what someone else says or how they say it.
Political decisions are no different.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)One candidate is going to bring more war.
Also one has supported the incarceration of poor people for minor crimes that the police use to suppress certain populations.
Then there are the campaign financiers who didn't get rich by playing fair with the American people and who strive to get laws made in their favor. Nope can't support any of that.
But that's just me.
Response to RobertEarl (Reply #1)
Post removed
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Yeah, that slavery mentality still exists. Do you deny that?
And why is it just 13% voted in SC? IOW, why did 87% ignore the election?
The only reason Clinton won there was because so few voted.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)was because of black voters, primarily in Cook County in Chicago...in the land of Lincoln.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Since there are far more whites in SC, it is they who mainly were the ones who ignored the election.
I look at those white people who let that flag fly so long and call shame on them, not the people they have been oppressing.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)and think that you have a severe case of amnesia but thanks for playing...
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)You misread me and now you have decided that I am a bad guy. There is a name for such mindsets, and such has been used to suppress people for ages. I kinda thought you might be past that but I see you are still caught in that quagmire.
My bad.
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)I'm still kind of trying to figure out her original post. It is ambiguous to me. Sounds like she has a very specific expectation for what she's willing to accept...
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)To be fair, the issue goes very far beyond Sanders-Clinton but the premise is simple.
People tend not to develop views about much of anything (esp. politics) in isolation although, yes, there is work that people need to do by themselves.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Such discussions are tough. There is a lot of history - bad history - that most of the US has not come to grips with and anyone exposing that history can be deemed to be on the wrong side. Much empathy is required especially from those who control the history due to the historic power holders.
When I was young, I decided that I was a Democrat because of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts. That's where I am coming from.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)They have a right to do what they want, but is it really fair to still claim that Bernie hasn't addressed race sufficiently?
I get that he didn't say enough at the start of the campaign, but why do any POC voters still act as if nothing has changed with him on this?
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)Bernie supporters why so few of them chose to participate in the SC election.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)No amount of happy get-along articles and whitewashing will cover that up.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)It's like I said last month...nothing has solidified my resolve against Clinton like her supporters. Many (I also didn't say most) of them are real vile scumbags. Classist, elitist, proudly anti-progressive; some Clinton supporters are in-their-own-stead plenty racist, sexist, homophobic, and there has been even a few instances of antisemitism out of them.
They are certainly doing Hillary no favors in the reconciliation she will need to win back Sanders supporters and win the GE. Nobody is happy to reconcile with a gloating asshole or a poor winner supporting a lesser-of-two-evils...even when they know it's the right decision because the greater-of-two-evils is pretty fucking evil.
[font size="5"]This is not the smirk of a nice person.[/font]
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)I didn't vote for her in my state's primary...
But on the whole, some Clinton supporters have made "swipes" at Sanders supporters but not whole demographics...that's the difference.
jfern
(5,204 posts)who have a race and sexism problems.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)and it turns me (a non-Clinton voter) off.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)jfern
(5,204 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)revbones
(3,660 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)That was my misunderstanding.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Based off a flawed assumption it is attack mode, then apologies.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)I said I disagreed with him on Hillary, but agreed with his point.
He said he wasn't a supporter of Sec. Clinton.
I apologized for the misunderstanding.
It was possibly one of the more civil exchanges on the subject all day.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)And setting me straight. <- not said in snark.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Please go make the same demand here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511534089#post56
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I read it wrong. I wasn't looking for your understanding. I was pointing out I apologized to the party my comment was directed at.
I also appreciated the manner in which they set me straight.
jfern
(5,204 posts)But no one is running a campaign to make them look bad.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)Just sayin
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)I'm frankly tired of people acting like Hillary supporter's aren't guilty of the exact same thing.
They threw Jane Sanders to the wolves yesterday because it was politically convenient.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)and visited Arapiao's tent city in that capacity...she's fair game (just as Hillary Clinton was and Michelle Obama was and even Kitty Dukakis was).
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)Her role isn't in doubt. What I'm talking about is the siding with Joe. Whether you want to admit it or not Bernie was right and Joe did ambush Jane.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)Jane Sanders seemed to be unprepared for the possibility that Arapaio would show up at a place that he runs (and had every right to show up).
My critique would be that the Sanders campaign was (yet again!) caught flat-footed and unprepared in the context of running a national campaign.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)In his tweet and actions. Jane handled herself excellently.
How many was in his armed press posse again?
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)but the optics on that are not good...and anyway, this sub-thread is a derailment now.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)I'm fine with ending it as I like to stay on point as well.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I was juror #5 and voted to hide.
On Sat Mar 19, 2016, 08:29 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Dear Sanders supporters
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511533688
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
The OP tried to be cute and clever, but just called DU Bernie supporters racist, sexist, homophobic stupid shits. Offensive and rude. To be clear, the op is about DUers. It is DUers they are calling those names.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Mar 19, 2016, 08:38 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The poster might have gotten away with this if they had used a hypothetical, but they did not. They address their comments to "Sanders Supporters" and then assert that many - with a specific "I didn't say most" (as if that makes it acceptable) - make racist, sexist, homophobic, etc., comments. Putting "If" in front of this comment does not deflect from the assertion; it only makes it more obvious that the purpose of the OP was to level these accusations at "many" of Sanders' supporters on DU.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I went back twice: yes, it was said politely, but Sanders supporters just got called "racist, sexist, homophobic" etc. Hiding for insulting DU members. If poster sees this type of problem (which is against TOS), they need to alert instead of make blanket insults to Sanders supporters.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Free speech.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)I can appreciate both you and Juror #2...at least you were very deliberative about this and gave solid reasons for your vote (I disagree with it...I did say "otherwise inappropriate or stupid shit...)
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I am not a racist, homophobe or misogynist. I personally found your post insulting, but I decided to hide your post for the same reason I would hide "Hillary supporters love corruption" - inappropriate and untrue.
As I said in my (minority) opinion, I think this type of insulting people with different viewpoints is not somethings that belongs on our message board.
Have a nice evening.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)as insulting, including the OP of someone commenting in this thread right now and who continues to double-down on his thesis.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Homophobic and misogynistic comments violate TOS. Hit the alert button, then alert on the jury results so the mods can take care of business.
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)I am cleaning house, I was wondering who I missed.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I would stay home or play frisbee golf or something.
At least, the supporters ive encountered on the internet. My mom is a hillary supporter, and I suspect she is more indicative of the demographic than the drama-obsessed crowd that has spent the past 8 months in a nonstop low valence, basically incoherent ad hominem attack against those of us who dare to support a different primary candidate.
Fortunately, I'm not twelve, and I dont let the blargle of some random ginkuses on the interwebs influence that extremely important choice.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)I am saying that they do influence to some degree...and I am saying that it's actually a normal thing...I said that it was ONE criterion.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Because no, I make that decision based upon specific policy positions and what I want us as a party to stand for as defined by the leadership of those we choose to represent us, not because "so and so is a poop-poster!"
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)I don't develop my views on anything (including politics) in isolation. Do you?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Isolation meaning random shit which doesn't have any actual policy implications but instead are the disgruntled electronic farts of continually cranky people on the internet who would be complaining about something else if it wasn't an election year?
Yes.
So let's look at this non-isolation calculus you're doing, here, Kev. Because the vote itself is binary. Either/Or. Or maybe multiple choice. You either vote for Candidate A, Candidate B, or stay home. Right?
So if this allegedly statistically significant "widespread bad behavior", of which the people who talk about it endlessly insist is real because they're talking about it endlessly, natch, amirite-- if this is influencing your choice before you get to that binary decision, how much is it influencing it? 20%? 50%?
Are you suggesting that you honestly might have pulled the lever for Sanders instead of Hillary in your primary, "if it wasn't for...."?
Honestly?
Or is this just more of the same.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)There were other ballot options and there was one that fit what I wanted to communicate as a voter.
As far as "the supporter" issue...it affected it a very little bit, yes.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I'm honestly curious.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)1) He was the best "none of the above" option on my ballot that also reflected my own ideological views the closest.
I wound up having to take almost all of the personalities out of my process altogether (O'malley was a real doofus when he was in the race, IMO)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I thought he came across well.
In a normal year, I think, he would have stood out more. But this is not a normal year.
My plan is to vote for Bernie in May, even though it likely won't make a difference. I did, honestly, give HRC a chance- if we're talking calculus, in 2008 the IWR vote was a dealbreaker for me; it precluded me from supporting Edwards, Kerry, Clinton or Biden (not that I would have supported Biden anyway, what with his record as architect of and apologist for the drug war). unfortunately my fear was the HRC would run an excessively poll-tested, light on specifics campaign, and my fears turned out to be more than justified, to my mind. In addition she has run a campaign 20 years out of date not just in terms of tactics but in terms of understanding the electorate.
Still, I'll vote for her in November, if I have to.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Then I know he will not make the cut so I will move over to the Hillary side. I want OM counted.
JustAnotherGen
(31,879 posts)I'm writing him in! There is not a single word in his white papers I disagreed with - and his humility in Baltimore was so impressive.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)Great line!
LexVegas
(6,094 posts)dragonfly301
(399 posts)the following antisemitic comment made by a Hillary supporter who participates here, on a different blog and recc'd by you Chitown Kev - before you preach you might want to clean up your own house.
I cannot stand him. His fans are racists who run around calling blacks racist and wonder why we hate him and them. I don't even LIKE Hillary but I will vote for her just so his fans can feel the sne BERN that they have been passing out. Look at the racist comments here. I did not know jews hated us blacks so much. Good to know. I will return it in kind. There are so few of them It's a wonder they have the gall to think about being racist against blacks.
All that being said, I'm not basing my vote on the actions of supporters - there is enough that I dislike about Hillary's policies that would keep me from voting for her.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)and (I thought, anyway) that I had removed my (temporary) rec.
If you want to flog and browbeat me about it, though, I can't stop you...
remember, I didn't vote for Hillary, either.
dragonfly301
(399 posts)noretreatnosurrender
(1,890 posts)Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)where are they? Was that anti-Semitic garbage even too much for them?
jfern
(5,204 posts)Hillary supporters say plenty of things in very poor taste, including racism, sexism, anti-semitism, and crickets about that.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)posturing.
Nice sermon about Sanders supporters. I reject every word.
Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)because I am a Bernie supporter. To the ignore box for you. Good riddance.
Edit: Alert for calling us racist, sexist, homophobic.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)then I am not talking about you.
There are enough Bernie Sanders supporters that have engaged in racist, sexist, and (on rarer occasions) homophobic rhetoric that it's hard NOT to notice it.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)two other things should be considered:
1) Have most of that candidates supporters condemned and called out offensive comments?(in my estimation the vast majority of Sanders supporters have done exactly that)
2) This is the Internet-can we really be sure that people who are making offensive comments while claiming to support a candidate are really supporters at all? It's likely that at least a lot of those who have said offensive things(probably a majority)were either people who were just trolls who saw a chance for fun or sabateurs in the service of other candidates. Not hard to recruit cyber-wreckers...a lot of them will post any shit someone wants them to post for the price of a month's worth of Hot Pockets.
The comments you have seen here that were offensive don't reflect the spirit of the Sanders campaign...and Bernie and the rest of us have called out the bad actors over and over. There's no way to absolutely control what people post online.
That said, as I've said elsewhere, I'm glad the particularly offensive poster who was banned yesterday got banned, whatever his motivations were.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)it was a "commons" of sorts in Athens that along with being a marketplace was also a place where ideas and politics were discussed...like the public square.
Now yes, in an internet "agora" you always have to be mindful of trolls (then again, you had to be mindful of those in the agoras and public squares IRL). If it were just "trolls", I don't think there would be that big of a problem.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)He's condemned them again and again. A lot of us have. What more can we do about this?
We can't just end the campaign...that would mean giving up working for change.
Logical
(22,457 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)To be clear, I am quoting a Hillary supporter speaking to a African American man today at a Donald Trump rally, which wasn't supposed to be about Hillary.
https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/711273345849946112
This is why we should be voting on the basis of what the candidates say, because there are assholes on both sides.
I concur with Warren DeMontague above.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)it has ZERO impact on how I vote.
I cannot stand him. His fans are racists who run around calling blacks racist and wonder why we hate him and them. I don't even LIKE Hillary but I will vote for her just so his fans can feel the sne BERN that they have been passing out.
Look at the racist comments here. I did not know jews hated us blacks so much. Good to know. I will return it in kind. There are so few of them It's a wonder they have the gall to think about being racist against blacks.
Bravenak, Frontpage Mag 6 Comments
Fundie Index: 3
WTF?! || meh
http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=117360
Yes, let's indeed flesh out "racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise inappropriate or stupid shit." Start with the above.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Obvious bigot is obvious. That is incredibly foul materials.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)It's been an endless stream, starting way back with that gleeful "old white men are dying off" thread. Perhaps there were more offensive posts before that, but that's the one that first caught my attention.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Finger pointing to distract from the brutal truth. Transparent.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)but Kev did give it the ol' college try.
Who are Skinner, et al. really looking at when they speak of "division" on this board? Wait, dumb question. Never mind.
melman
(7,681 posts)and then started whining about being browbeaten and headed for the hills. lol
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Is Kos that way? Kos's design gives me a headache so I spend very little time there. DU's design is superb.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)WillyT just got banned for A LOT LESS than what Bravenak has done with her racist discussion post at another site.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)a whole fight for everyone to have. He said 'Civil rights don't matter' and they said 'He defines Bernie Sanders'.
I called out both sides so everyone on both sides hates me and that's fine with me, I welcome hate that comes to me for telling the truth and being a bit better reader than the average poster.
On that last part, I do not read Skinner's amnesty statement as a pardon but as a lure. And people are biting pretty hard on that hook if you ask me.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)You have a formidable memory and a knack for calling on it at the right time.
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)And failure to even consider what that reply was on. Let me fix that oopsie for you. Here are some of the other posts for reference of what this post was about:
Those are a few of the responses to which Bravenak was responding.
But yeah, Bravenak was soooo out of line. I guess you think she should know her place.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)The words came out of her mouth and she knows she fucked up, for there are at least two apologies on this board. Knowing her posting history, I doubt the sincerity.
Don't pull the "she should know her place" crap with me... it rolls right off. Trust me on that one.
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)It looks like you are the one that made an "oopsie". Those are comments she didn't respond to.
As the person in this Kos thread points out, the only comment she made was the one quoted here.
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1497565/60170036#comment_60170036
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)libdem4life
(13,877 posts)If someone says a bunch of really nice things about Trump...???? Doesn't pass the smell test. Give me a freaking break.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)of lecturing, condescending and exploitative attempts by straight Hillary supporters. Insulting, transparent and the exact same sort of shit you find fault with on the other side. But you only find the other's fault. You don't call them out for doing this. And that's not fair play at all.
Your own candidate said insanely false things to praise a Republican villain for doing the exact things he did not do at all. Then her supporters here went on a lecture tour instead of making a round of apologies.
So really at the end of the day, let the Supporters who are without sin cast stones. And Hillary's Team on DU is no more fucking sinless than Bernie's. And that's that. Fair is fair. Equal is equal.
I'm pretty sick of the posturing. I've read some really ugly antisemitism out of people who affect that they are the judge and the jury of others. I think that is very, very fucked up. Those who play along with that are a bunch of bigoted creeps. That's right, bigoted creeps who are a slim toupee's hair in difference from Trump supporters or the recently departed Stockholm Man.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)not emotion and least of all on some random, anonymous internet posts.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)I support BLM and I support civil rights for all. If, indeed, I were a homophobe or racist, your lectures are not going to change my opinions, especially after what I've seen around here the last week.
Number23
(24,544 posts)board. Because apparently it's our job as black posters to police each other. I'm sure you catch the irony of that as much as I do.
Never mind that many of the same folks that are demanding that every black poster here atone for bravenak were the main ones who were quiet as farts in church when BBI or Manny or WillyT were taken to task or perversely, actually loudly and clearly SUPPORTED these individuals when black posters and clued in white folks repeatedly called them out for their racist and/or offensive posts.
This place has lost its mind. And I just saw your hidden post so I know you can't respond anyway. But I know you see these people every bit as clearly as the rest of us do. Their unending obsession with shutting bravenak up is sure as hell bringing out the most astonishing, ILLUMINATING reactions.
artislife
(9,497 posts)You see, to me, cluster bombs and regime changes hurt a lot more than words.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)All I ever get is crickets.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)While I put "supporter antics" on an extremely low list of priorities for me (I still am a huge fan of Sanders despite disagreeing with the antics of a huge number of his "supporters" on this site and other sites), it's still a valid reason.
People seem to think that they can only support or vote for someone over strict issues. That's not the case. People might chose Clinton solely because of her Planned Parenthood endorsement. Who cares. Sanders could get support from F35 ops people in Vermont. Who cares. That's their right.
Vinca
(50,303 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)any certainly only a small fraction of his supporters have done.
Given the nature of anonymous discussion boards, it wouldn't even surprise me if some of these bad actors were agents provocateurs of a sort.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)their failures. Ignore their criticism. . .it is the criticism of hypocrites. . . calling out others as they lie, cheat, swift boat and smear Bernie every day. . . .and then plead with Bernie supporters to cut it out. They need to cut it out themselves, then they might have SOME credibility.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)Every day there is a new round of articles coming out from the Hillary campaign and supporters on some new theme, some latest strategy to smear Bernie, lie about his record or diss his supporters.
Look in the mirror for once. She is running the dirtiest campaign in recent history. If you don't like it, then talk to the Clinton campaign and her supporters and have them knock of all the lies and swift boating.
Until then, stop insulting us with your one sided equality. Start changing your tactics and then many you have any kind of standing to talk about others.
merrily
(45,251 posts)what some of his millions of supporters do or say, though.
BTW, I say the same thing to those disgusted with Hillary's supporters, all of whom are by no means angels, despite all the self-righteous and holier than thou.
You have millions of people in any group, her supporters, his supporters, Americans in general, you will get bad apples.