To those who would withhold their vote in November.

[JohnnyRingo]

Do it.

Just do it and spare us the hand wringing drama that accompanies such posts. Stop pretending that you hold an oh-so-precious vote hostage and will pull the trigger if your demands aren't met. I don't care, kill it.

I used to get upset with posts that expressed an inclination to stay home this fall or write in some protest vote if Sanders isn't the candidate, but then it occurred to me: We didn't need you to re-elect President Obama in 2012 and we won't need you this time either.

Since Obama and Clinton are cut from the same political DNA I know those idealistic minded activists looking for a revolution couldn't have cast a vote for domestic surveillance, constant war, and a lopsided economic system. Of course we got the good with the bad in gender equality, bail out of the auto industry, and LGBT rights, but the intolerance of those who would discard their vote this year surely couldn't have seen past that.

Even if one swears to Alinsky that they voted for Obama but will just sit out this election or write in Mickey Mouse or Bernie Sanders, it still doesn't matter. First of all your write-in protest won't count. It'll go straight to the trash bin. There will be no reports on how many voters opted for someone not on the ballot and it's not like you voted for Cruz. Secondly, you're such a small percentage as to be insignificant, probably much less than 1%. Though your threats get recs all the way to the Greatest Threads page very few here will follow through with you this fall. Everyone wants to participate and most want to celebrate with the winners. There's a reason Cafe Press doesn't make a bumper sticker that says: "Don't Blame Me, I Don't Vote".

I've heard your high handed excuses about your uncompromising ideals and and how your conscience won't allow you to vote for Ms Clinton if she's on the ballot in November, but your fragile conscience and ego that hang by a shimmering gossamer thread isn't worth two shits and a cup of coffee to the rest of us who will be fighting to avoid four years of a Republican seated in the White House.

Just don't let me see you at the victory party.

[Attorney in Texas]

1. Nobody's "withholding" their vote. We're all voting for Sanders!

[WhiteTara]

5. In the primary and only maybe

in the general.

[JohnnyRingo]

10. You're still throwing away your vote.

If he's not on the ballot you might as well save time and stay home to fume about it as it won't be counted anyway. It'll be just like you didn't vote at all except in your own mind, and that's not helping anyone's cause.

I'm not criticizing those who are working feverishly to gain the nomination for Bernie, only those who refuse to face reality if he doesn't make to to the general election. I admire the passion of Bernie's people, they're fighting for what they believe, but I admonish those who think their vote is so important that everyone else will succumb to their will to preserve it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Right and wrong, my registrar actually counts them

and yes, some people vote for Mickey Mouse every four years. It is kind of adorable when you think about it. The Mickey mouse party, as the registrar ended up calling them as a joke a few years back when asked by reporters, reached all the way to 1 percent one year. I think that was 1992.

Technically they are spoiled votes, but for fun, they do count them. That does not mean they are reported in official counts though.

They are usually in the hundreds though. I know of a few college professors who look at these things and ask for the data every four years. They see them as indicators of voter anger.

[kristopher]

31. "We didn't need you to re-elect President Obama in 2012"

The hell he didn't need us. Are you really that uninformed?

[JohnnyRingo]

56. People who will withhold their vote...

...because Bernie isn't on the ballot will represent a negligible percentage, not enough to cost Democrats a victory.

If those same people didn't vote in 2012, assuming they're as convicted as they claim, didn't matter at all. Mitt Romney was a relatively benign candidate compared to this year so I'm sure they didn't vote then either.

I'm obviously not talking about Sanders' supporters in general, only those who try to sway the primaries by threatening to kill their vote in November. I no longer care about them, nor should anyone else. Are you so deluded that you think the people who will stay home or write in a protest vote numbers in the millions? I don't.

[7962]

74. Thing is, a LOT more people are disillusioned by HRC than were complacent in '12

Thats a BIG difference.
But you see the exact same thing happening on the other side too; "if Trump isnt the nominee I'm not voting"
But I think there will be more doing it over there than in the Dem party

[840high]

77. I'll vote. Bernie.

[GoneFishin]

203. Me too. Go Bernie.

[CoffeeCat]

177. No kidding. The underlying foundation of this screed is flawed

Obama supporters were the left-wing (the base) of the Democratic party. Obama was the left-wing alternative to centrist neocon Hillary. Remember...many flocked to Obama because he came out against the Iraq war and also because Hillary voted for it? She ended up apologizing for that vote, due to pressure from the left and anti-war activists in the party.

That's some crazed and flawed logic in that OP.

Bernie supporters, again--the base of the party--don't appreciate being offered up political leftovers. She's still a neocon. She's even worse than she was before. Now, she's been endorsed by the founder of the neocon movement, Robert Kagan. He also served as one of her foreign-policy advisers while she was SOS and as she turned Libya into a failed state.

One more reason these types will lose the election for us. They don't even understand the foundational politics of the 2008 race OR the Democratic party.

[vintx]

185. Your analysis is spot on.

Tbey can be as madas they like about it.

[oldandhappy]

45. Not. Starting with Obama I only vote positive. No more lesser business.

I vote carefully and joyfully and not always obediently! Also.

[cprise]

79. No. Thankfully many of us don't live in battleground states. n/t

[Katashi_itto]

172. My vote is mine to spend how i choose.

[Kittycat]

99. +1

[pdsimdars]

106. Amen brother

People are voting for the candidate of their choice. If the Dems want people to vote for their candidate, they need to put out the best one and not use every lever of power to shut him down. If you tamper with the process, your candidate won't reflect the true will of the people.

[PeaceNikki]

2. .

[BlueMTexpat]

3. K & R!

They can take their negativity and ________________, IMO. (Imagine a very dark place.)

Whoever the GE candidate may be, we don't need their negativity.

[flor-de-jasmim]

4. at least vote for Dems for other offices!

[marew]

29. I am sure that is a given! n/t

[Vincardog]

6. Y'all just keep on with that solidarity message. Then come back and tell us it is our fault when

HRC loses.

[Go Vols]

186. +1

[Satch59]

7. Oh wow, great post johnnyringo!

And to the Bernie supporters, vote for him as a write in, not a problem... Just stop the immature threats...it's getting boring...

[Chicago1980]

75. Funny thing is,

Bernie wouldn't vote himself in as a write-in, he'd vote for Clinton if she were to get the nomination and Clinton vise-versa.

They'd campaign for one another for the generals too.

They're actually adults and realize the bigger picture.

Some of the fan club though, not so much.

[jillan]

8. Do NOT lay your guilt trip on me. This is America- My vote is My right. As for Hillary

if she wants my vote - she has to earn it. She does not automatically get it because I am a registered Democrat and she has a D at the end of her name.

I am 60 - I am DONE voting for the lesser of 2 evils.

About that victory party - that all depends what your definition of victory is.

[pat_k]

35. It's not just lesser of two evils...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511427893#post32

[oldandhappy]

47. amen

[silvershadow]

80. Doesn't it just piss you off when some of these smarmy young'ens want to lecture us?

as if. Learn something. Like a vote is earned, not owed. Or like, labor IS the backbone of the party going back 80 years, so if we are going to toss it aside for the Third Way I damn sure don't owe them a vote.

[840high]

82. Thank you. + a zillion

[Chicago1980]

84. No one said it wasn't your right.

But don't go complaining after November if we get a republican in the White House because of your sudden purism and temper tantrum.

[liberal_at_heart]

143. My vote is my right. Well said! One of my biggest pet peeves in life is other people

telling me how to vote. My vote is sacred, intimate, and personal and NOBODY tells me how to vote. My vote is my vote. No one else's. As much as I'm sure it burns them up they don't get to vote for me. That is my right and mine alone.

[ConsiderThis_2016]

9. Numbers don't Lie

[FreedomRain]

11. knowing that actually helps

HRC, should she make it to the General, regarding strategy and etc.

I'm not a ~Buster ; as long as she wins by pledged delegates more or less fairly, she'll get my vote. Maybe you don't care, but her strategists do. I don't think they are so deluded they will ignore political trends.

[Hoyt]

12. Having backed McGovern, I know how they feel. But they aren't acting like Democrats.

Last edited Sun Mar 6, 2016, 08:58 PM - Edit history (1)

[Chicago1980]

85. Nope.

They're acting like Trump supporters.

[Svafa]

187. That's because a lot of us aren't Democrats.

If she becomes the nominee, Clinton is going to need to find better strategies for appealing to independents, or else she and her cronies on the DNC are going to hand the White House to the Republicans on a silver platter in November.

[Hoyt]

198. I'd say those who don't vote will do that.

[Svafa]

199. It's the fault of the DNC for forcing a candidate on us who doesn't hold

any appeal for moderates, crossover voters, or progressives.

[Lizzie Poppet]

13. "We didn't need you to re-elect President Obama in 2012"

What could possibly lead anyone to believe that the vast majority of today's Bernie supporters didn't vote for Obama in 2012? That's simply bizarre.

The fact is, Obama's wins don't happen without both complete dominance of the AA vote and big turnouts from young voters. 2012 saw the latter drop off a bit, but it was still a group that was needed for victory. Hillary tanks with young voters in spectacular fashion. That alone may well doom her in November, without even considering her massive motivational factor for GOP turnout.

I strongly believe that Bernie could turn around a fair bit of the drop in AA turnout that might initially accompany his candidacy. His record ensures that. I also just as strongly believe that Hillary has zero chance of doing that with young voters...because her record is such that they don't believe a single word she says is genuine.

If it actually mattered who I vote for in my sure-to-break-blue state, I'd have a tough decision to make. It doesn't (thanks a fucking lot, Electoral Anachronism)...so this is an easy call.

[ibegurpard]

25. indeed

[joshcryer]

30. The green party got more votes in 2012...

...than they got since 2000. DU had people pledging not to vote Obama, people saying they don't do loyalty oaths, etc. It reflected in the polls.

[TransitJohn]

46. I really think if Hillary is the nominee, that the Republicans will take Colorado

People's views of her here range from dislike to hatred, spite, scorn, and contempt.

[fun n serious]

112. I disagree and do not see that at all.. nt

[TransitJohn]

138. My precinct in Denver

(2-20) went 5-1 for Bernie. 2 and 5 were in the same place downtown, and same results everywhere.

[Red Mountain]

14. Imagine how bad the idealistic uncompromising.......

Hillary voters will feel after they purposefully and arrogantly go out of their way to alienate their natural allies and end up putting a republican in the White House.

Talk about hangovers!


Alternative: discuss issues. Make a case for your candidate. Find common ground.

[bvar22]

15. Unlike Hillary,

I couldn't be PAID enough to go to a "Victory Party" with her name on it.
Some people can't be bought.

[pat_k]

37. It's not about being bought

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511427893#post32

[bvar22]

184. Going to a "Victory Party" for Wall Street,

and holding back the vomit while voting once again for the Lesser of Two Evils presented to us by our 1% are two different things entirely.
Hillary "winning" is no victory for America's Working Class.

[JohnnyRingo]

62. That's true

Last edited Sun Mar 6, 2016, 09:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Some people think they're so well off financially that they can weather four years of a Republican disaster and pave the way for a President Warren in 2020. That's unfortunate for the rest of the country that would suffer unimaginably, but... uh integrity or something!

You're in a position where you can't be bought though. Good for you.

[That Guy 888]

160. Your reply sounds like you prefer we beg for Hillary's largesse

Some people think they're so well off financially that they can weather four years of a Republican disaster...

The majority of those Democratic voters are Clinton supporters already.

Insults and fear-mongering don't do it for me, and I doubt they are effective at GOTV.

[bvar22]

188. Oooooo, Johnny.

Your brilliance has changed my mind about Hillary's connections to Wall Street and BIG MONEY.

Holding back the vomit while, once again, being forced to vote for the Lesser of Evils presented to us by the 1% is NO "Victory" for America's Working Class and Poor.
So, NO, you won't see me at any "Victory Party" for Wall Street & BIG Money.
I have to Work for a Living.

NO. WE. CAN'T!

[NurseJackie]

16. Thank you! This needed to be said!

[DCBob]

17. They are hoping their threats to "hold their breath" will convince us all to switch to Bernie.

BTW, your OP is awesome!

[840high]

86. I don't care who you vote for.

[Chicago1980]

88. I'd vote for him hands down no problem if he won the general.

Unlike them however, I don't stomp my feet and pout like a five year old.

[fun n serious]

114. Threat after threat all over DU.

LMAO. Let them vote whatever they wish.

[angrychair]

18. At the end of the day

My vote, one way or the other, won't matter in the big picture.
If HRC manages to keep herself out of jail before July, manages to win the nomination in July and manages to keep herself out of jail before November and tRump manages to keep out of jail himself and manages to hold off cruz, it will still be a train wreck of an election.

There is no guarantee it will be tRump at this point.
If it is Cruz than the HRC's opportunities are a lot more narrow. Her ability to beat Cruz is in serious question. She is losing every head-to-head poll against Cruz and has been for months. (Sanders beats all and has been for months)

More importantly, it is about coattails. She will not being in more than the teapublicans, especially if it's Cruz. That is the real issue.

[pat_k]

39. It's about us, not "them"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511427893#post32

[samplegirl]

19. Best Advice yet

K & R

[LyndaG]

20. I'll be voting D

I remember eight long years of Bush/Cheney. I do not want an R undoing all that President Obama has accomplished.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I would love to see the General ONLY OPEN to REGISTERED DEMOCRATS

In fact, only open to REGISTERED CENTRIST DEMOCRATS... and see how fast you lose.

I mean it. This is an amazing lack of knowledge of how coalitions are built in the US...

Now as a thought experiment this could be fun... thanks I have the afternoon to mull about it.

[liberal_at_heart]

105. they think coalitions are formed by insulting, abusing and coercing people.

[redstateblues]

181. Coalitions are not built with ideological purity tests

And rejectlng anyone who isn't marching in lockstep with BSS definition of a "true" progressive.

[oasis]

23. Thank you, JohnnyRingo for telling it like it is.

[ibegurpard]

24. Feel better?

[IdahoGoBlue]

26. Thanks

That's how we were feeling anyway. As if we were insignificant supporting anyone but her highness for their third term in office. Thanks for reminding us everyday how our votes don't count and or candidate doesn't stand a chance and suppressing our vote and ignoring our candidate on the media channels. Yes these are the reasons we withhold the vote.

[pat_k]

40. Reasons not to "withhold"...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511427893#post32

[NRaleighLiberal]

54. You are spamming this thread.

[pat_k]

66. Am I violating the rules?

If so, I apologize. I just wanted to reply to some people individually. It was just a link to earlier post. I don't see harm.

[Le Taz Hot]

153. You're being a pain in the ass.

[Setsuna1972]

27. why waste your vote ?

To me you're just wasting your time--"since Bernie won't win the nomination, I won't vote for Hillary in the General Election and /or just stay home or write in someone who won't win" . If that's how you feel, FINE . Just do it and don't be drama queens and kings about it all ! Bye !

[Nanjeanne]

28. Thanks. I'll vote as I see fit on the day of the election. Whether I vote for Clinton or not

and whether she wins or not - I won't be dancing at any victory party. So no need to not see me there! But thanks for venting. Hope you feel better now!

[pat_k]

33. Here's a reason to support whoever's the nominee...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511427893#post32

[Nanjeanne]

103. As I said I don't need anyone to tell me how to vote. Hillary has done nothing to

Gain my vote and everything to lose it. What I ultimately decide to do is my business but I have no fantasies that Hillary will be anything more than what I already know her to be.

[fun n serious]

111. No one is telling you. Why do you guys feel the need to use your vote as a threat?

New flash it's not. Vote whatever you wish

[Nanjeanne]

113. Which is what I said in my post. But thanks for your permission.

[pat_k]

121. I'm just presenting a reason...

...that you might consider as you make your decision.

I'm not "telling" anyone what to do.

[Loki]

133. Would you like the web address for Free Republic?

Spouting that kind of crap, especially with Robert Kennedy's icon on your page is serious hypocrisy.

[Nanjeanne]

135. Thank you for your kindness and charming words.

[pat_k]

32. As a Bernie supporter, I too am frustrated...

Last edited Mon Mar 7, 2016, 08:05 PM - Edit history (10)

...with those who say they'll never vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination.

I believe refusing to vote for the Democratic nominee is a betrayal of what he stands for. Bernie's campaign isn't just about electing Bernie. It's about fighting for what's right, now, AND in the future.

Even if he wins, he can't bring about change without the hard work of people on the ground: winning back Congress; pushing through Medicare for all (and the other big changes he's calling for); and electing the president most likely to sign any bills into law if we get it done.

Unless you think that's one of the Republican candidates, fighting for what Bernie stands for means getting out there and sending the Democratic nominee to the White House.

The Bernie supporters that are most gratifying to see are those that recognize the campaign isn't just about electing Bernie. It's those who recognize it's about Fighting for What He Stands for. And those who intend to continue that fight, whoever's in the White House.

Right now, supporting what Bernie stands for means raising every dollar possible, working to inspire every person we can, and working to win every delegate possible, regardless of the cumulative numbers. That's because every dollar raised, every supporter won over, and every delegate won, represents a challenge to the status quo. Even if it comes to a point that he can't win the nomination, the closer we can make it, the more powerful the ripple effects will be long into the future.

If he were to lose the nomination, fighting for what he stands for means working to support bills that implement his ideas, and putting the person in the White House who is most likely to sign such a bill if we manage to get it through.

If most supporters commit to staying in the fight for the long haul, we will win. It may take time, but massive change doesn't happen overnight very often.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

More here on reasons to stay in until the convention.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511423349#post12

[One of the 99]

36. Thanks

Great post!

[drray23]

43. thats a great post

and summarizes very well what is at stake and how one goes about enacting change. Things wont happen overnight whether Bernie win or not. His supporters should be prepared to go for the long run and not just take their marbles and go home if he does not end up the nominee. Getting a trump or cruz elected will set us back a generation. They will control all three branches and the supreme court. If you espouse democratic views you can not allow that to happen.

[tblue37]

110. Her voice is hoarse. So is his. My throat hurts listening to them! nt

[Doctor_J]

134. Refusing to Vote for Clinton is in no way, shape, or form betraying what Sanders stands for

Voting for a corporate conservative who will, without a doubt, sell us farther down the river to the billionaires and mega corporations would be a betrayal.

[pat_k]

140. Supposing...

Hillary did win the nomination (which I DON'T want to see happen), would you still be doing what you can to get through Medicare for all? (John Conyers has been leading that battle for years.)

I for one have done what I can (and will continue) to help bring more sponsors on board on that bill, or support any other variation on universal health care that gets introduced, regardless of who is in the White House. (And pushing through bills means working on Congressional elections too.)

Let me ask this: Assuming the dreaded outcome happens, and Hillary wins the nomination. Suppose we were to be successful in pushing Conyers Bill (or something similar) through, who do you think is more likely to sign it? One of the Republican candidates, or Hillary?

[Doctor_J]

142. Neither Clinton or a republican will sign the bill, since none of them would support it, meaning it

would have no chance of passing. Hillary said that there will never, ever be single payer healthcare in the US. That is her position, and since she takes millions from the insurance industry, she means it. So the possibility of healthcare under Clinton or a republican is zero

[pat_k]

145. It's up to us to prove her wong...

I believe using the rational "can't win," to surrender without a fight, is why we are in the mess we're in.

I did not ask whether or not people-power can make things happen, I asked you who would be most likely to sign a bill IF WE DID, the Republican nominee or the Democratic nominee (whether Sanders OR Clinton).

If you really believe Clinton would be more likely than the Republican to VETO such a bill, then we simply disagree on that point.

[TreasonousBastard]

156. Right on, and likely how real voters (not DU posters) think.

[NCTraveler]

34. It stems from a thought process in campaigning.

It's a tactic. That's why I think we can do without it.

[BillZBubb]

38. If I make that decision, I will post about it and you can go suck eggs.

Who the flying F are you to tell people what to post?

If you don't like the topic just move along.

[pat_k]

41. It shouldn't be about liking, or disliking, the topic

I think it's a topic we need to engage on.

As a Bernie supporters, I too am frustrated...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511427893#post32

[JRLeft]

42. Hillary over Trump or Cruz all day.

[cantbeserious]

44. IMHO - A Vote For HRC In The Primary Is A Vote For Trump In The General

No Hand Wringing Required.

[haikugal]

65. Thank you! Very well stated.

[Chicago1980]

91. Only if people like yourself are silly enough to vote 3rd party because of your "conscience".

[cantbeserious]

101. Some People Are Fearful With Either Choice - Trump Or HRC

eom

[Chicago1980]

108. I have no fears about HRC.

Some people are also misogynists. I see that as a factor.

[cantbeserious]

128. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[mountain grammy]

48. I voted last week. For Sanders.

What's your point? I see more posts from Hillary supporters about not voting for the ticket. Surely you've seen them too. I blocked the Hillary Group because I was sick of seeing this nonsense.. why don't you keep it there?

[Maedhros]

49. I'll vote for the candidate that best represents my interests.

If the Democrats want my vote, they will nominate a candidate that earns it.

[AtomicKitten]

51. + 1000000

Succinctly and well said.

[Maedhros]

55. The Democratic rank-and-file has stopped asking candidates to earn their votes.

They make no demands of Democratic politicians, and do not hold them accountable when they do horrendous things.

I firmly believe that until we put our collective foot down and say "NO MORE BULLSHIT!", we will continue to get bullshit. It's not rocket science.

Thank you for the supportive response. Cheers!

[AtomicKitten]

92. Cheers!

[pat_k]

57. I'm guessing whoever wins Dem nomination will better...

...represent your interests than any of the Republican candidates.

And a message to Bernie supporters considering withholding vote from Hillary...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511427893#post32

[Maedhros]

63. Hillary does not do better in that respect than Jill Stein.[n/t]

[pat_k]

64. Thx. Point made.

[Maedhros]

70. Democrats have refused to hold their candidates accountable for the bad things they do.

Until we do so, they will continue to do bad things.

By holding my nose and voting for Hillary, I am excusing her from responsibility for her Iraq War vote, the coup in Honduras, her role in destroying Libya and spreading instability across Northwest Africa, and her cozy relationship with the private prison industry. I am no longer going to look the other way in service of partisanship.

[pat_k]

115. Your position is completely understandable.

I'm just concerned that the lack of enthusiasm for Hillary will put a republican in the White House.

I am a strong believer that politics is ultimately about us, not "them."

And I stick to my counterpoint: that if we manage to win Congress and push some decent bills through, Hillary is more likely than a Republican candidate to sign them.

I see it as being about people increasing the chances of accomplishing things for themselves. We can NEVER count on the folks inside the beltway to do the right thing without a hell of a lot of pushing. Right now corporate lobbyists are far more effective than citizen lobbyists at doing the pushing. I think we can change that, even within the current system.

Imagine if we had just 500 citizen lobbyists in each congressional district pestering members of congress (or staffers) face-to-face, gathering names on petitions, raising money, and so on. That's a mere 0.3% of people who turnout to vote for candidates in the middle or left side of the current (incredible skewed to the right) spectrum. That's assuming an average district size of 710,000; 75% over 18; 60% voter turnout, and about 50% of those in the middle or left side of the spectrum).

With the support of small contributions, these folks could be paid to work full time on our behalf. We would be creating a formidable "K street" operation of our own.

They may have the money, but people on the ground translate to money and power too. I think too many don't believe this right now, but can be "brought around" if we focus on instilling confidence in our own power to effect change.

I have no worries about those who will be supporting a third-party candidate. Third-party runs are an effective way to build networks that can carry on the fight too. What I worry about are the numbers of people who are expressing intent not to vote for any presidential candidate if Hillary wins.

That's just my two cents, FWIW.

[Maedhros]

120. We should be VERY WORRIED if Hillary wins the nomination.

It creates a no-win scenario for the General.

[pat_k]

124. I REALLY don't want to see that either..,

And that's my worry. That a hillary win will put a republican in the white house, particularly in light of the number of people expressing the intent not to vote for any candidate at all if she wins. I'm going to do what I can to prevent that outcome.

And, I concur with some of the reasons people voice for voting for a third party candidate. As I've said, third-party runs can also be an effective way to build networks that can fight on.

In any case, my post just falls into the FWIW category. Something Bernie supporters might want to consider as they make up their minds if confronted by a Hillary win.

It is not my intent to denigrate anyone's stated reasons for not voting for Hillary if she were to win. Only to add something into the mix.

[daa]

50. With Trump

We can get very good OR very bad. With Hillary we just get more of th same. Is that what you want?

[www.ciafront.com]

52. Why do you say that write in votes are trashed?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/7/21/1404380/-The-Write-In-Vote

Click on the link and you will see it's a lie.

[JohnnyRingo]

69. That's only for the primary.

It even says so. In the GE a name has to be on the ballot to be officially counted. "Mr or Mrs none of the above" has never been in danger of winning an election.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

53. I will vote for the Democratic nominee

[pat_k]

59. Perhaps spread some of these ideas for doing so

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511427893#post32

[Le Taz Hot]

154. OMG! For the 47th fucking time!

You ain't that clever, Ace.

<flush>

[ALBliberal]

58. I would never withhold my vote the SC

Is too important. But I will change my registration to independent after the NM primary. I am a lifelong Dem. My first vote was for Carter in 1980. I will forever be proud of that vote. I gotta tell you the HRC supporters on DU have severely altered my view of the Dem party. And this is a multi generational shift here. My millennial kids nieces and nephews..... Quite sure they will switch to Independent. But ya Hillary has our vote for the sake of the Supreme Court.

[pat_k]

61. And some additional reasons...

It's about more than the Supreme Court.

Message to Bernie supporters:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511427893#post32

[ALBliberal]

87. Not sure how that was to influence me

I already said I was voting for HRC should she get the nomination so no hand wringing needed. My kids will vote for her as well. We owe no one nothing. We don't even owe anything this GE. Maybe leave it alone and be somewhat grateful that we are not withholding our vote. We will find a different way forward and it's really no ones business how we make our way.

[bvf]

60. OK. Thanks for your *permission.*

[JDPriestly]

67. You think you don't need us. But you did need us in 2012.

I can tell you that in my community, I was one of the most reliable and most active of the Obama campaigners.

A lot of people talk about campaigning. I do it. I show up.

I don't know who Hillary is going to get to go out there for her. She won't have me. I am sick of the corruption.

[Depaysement]

68. Well at this juncture I don't know what I'll do

But spare me the Trump-like directives and ranting platitudes directed at Bernie supporters here. We didn't created Hillary's record. She did.

Don't blame the non-voters or third-party voters if Madame Secretary loses because some voters you expect to vote for her just didn't.

[bvf]

71. +1,000. n/t

[Bjornsdotter]

72. My conscience is clear

...thank-you for your concern.

[liberal_at_heart]

73. 40% of Americans consider themselves Independents. There is a day of reckoning coming.

[Joe the Revelator]

76. Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave

My vote is 'oh-so-precious'. Your post wouldn't be here if it wasn't

[Chicago1980]

78. Beautiful post and 100% on point.

The petulance from some of the fan club is beyond nauseating.

[Trust Buster]

81. If Trump is the nominee, there will be self righteous Cruz supporters who won't vote.

The narcissism on both sides will cancel each other out. I agree with the OP. If you don't want to vote for Hillary, then by all means don't. ALL THE OP IS ASKING IS THAT YOU SPARE US THE SELF LOATHING. A fair request in my opinion.

[Turin_C3PO]

83. I agree.

I'm a Bernie supporter. I hope he wins. But if he doesn't then I will gladly vote for Clinton. For some people this is a game but for me it's a matter of life and death. I depend on disability, food stamps, and Medicaid to keep me from dying. A Republican president would endanger my life. For everyone who is thinking about sitting out the election please think about people like me before you make a final decision.

[Lil Missy]

89. you are absolutely right on.

The number of votes lost to the purists on DU would not make but a fraction of a spit in the ocean. In other words, not significant. It wouldn't change the outcome either way, win or lose.

[DrBulldog]

90. Oh, I will be voting for Bernie in the fall all right, no matter if he's on the ballot or not.

Because I'm smart enough to spell his name.

[Chicago1980]

93. Then I guess Bernie isn't as smart as you,

because if he loses the primary, I can guarantee you that he'd vote for Hillary.

He'd campaign for her too.

Maybe your guy isn't as smart as you proclaim huh?

[Baobab]

94. A Clinton nominee would be seen as a referendum on the horrible GATS overseas

Bill Clinton signed the most disastrous trade agreement - ever.

Gutting public services all around the world.

How little most people know.

[Chicago1980]

95. For all the Bernie supporter out there;

if he were to lose the nomination, who do you think he'll be endorsing and voting for in November? Third party?

Nope...

He'd support Hillary.

And vise-versa if he got the nod, just like she did for President Obama.

Just saying.....

You can spout your justifications all you want, but I'm correct on this issue.

[stupidicus]

96. I have no probs with people of conscience like that

I do grow weary of whines like yours though, as one who's held his nose and voted for the evil of the lesser of two evils most of my adult life

cry us a river eh?

[ellennelle]

100. what you said

thx for that.

you might appreciate this salon piece:

http://www.salon.com/2016/03/06/vote_for_hillary_be_a_sucker_its_ok_to_reject_the_choice_of_a_tyrannical_liberal_or_a_right_wing_tyrant/

[stupidicus]

118. thanks

I made much the same "you/I don't have the moral highground on this" argument months ago when the "fly guy" got banned.

I have more respect for those people than I do ANY Hillary supporter these days, and here's why

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. - Carl Sagan

something is gonna have to knock us off the slow trail to rightwingnutland Bill C put us on decades ago, and it's their largely unqualified support that put us on and keeps us on it. That doesn't give them the moral highground, it gives them all the guilt...

[world wide wally]

97. It's as simple as this:

If you won't vote for the LESSER of two evils, you get the GREATER.
Do you feel that you have a right to do that to the rest of us?

[Katashi_itto]

173. Run something other than a corporate operative then.

[world wide wally]

174. That's not my decision.

I just vote

[Katashi_itto]

180. Thats what i am doing too.

[liberal_at_heart]

182. Excuse the hell out of me? Where do you get off asking if we have the right to do

that to the rest of you? What about what your vote for Hillary would do for my family? Because Democrats are too scared to even mention the word taxes they have to cave to cuts to social services every time it is time to make the next year's budget. I have friends who just lost SSI because of cuts made during last year's budget deal and now I have to wonder if my autistic son will get any SSI at all. So if you get to ask that question so do I.

[world wide wally]

191. I didn't mention Hillary or Bernie

You are the one with the complex obviously.
Just have fun dealing with Trump or Cruz when it comes down to that.

[liberal_at_heart]

192. Good bye. You're going on my ignore list.

[ellennelle]

98. another perspective

right now, i'm on the fence wrt casting my vote for hillary IF she's the candidate. but this article made some compelling points.

fwiw, i do know i'll not be able to campaign for her, though i will campaign against republicans at every turn.

ps. you do realize, don't you, that all your nasty put-downs of these "oh-so-precious" votes also apply to your own. each vote is no more or less "precious" than the next. or, should not be, at least in theory.

so don't worry whatsoever; i highly suspect anyone so fed up with the system and a candidate who fails to do the peoples' work that they will refuse to vote for her would not only not show for any victory party, but would not even count her win as a victory.

[JohnnyRingo]

117. I'm not throwing away my vote; ie precious votes

The vote would only be of true import if the person switches and votes for the opposition. It's really not true that no vote at all is a vote for Trump. A vote for Trump or Cruz is.

Someone who stays home or writes in is of no more consequence than any of the other millions who refuse to exercise the right. Sure, the Democrat will need votes to win in November, but the number of protests will be insignificant as a percentage.

[bvar22]

194. In reality,

...that won't matter in states that Hillary will never win.
Voting for Hillary in a state where she is a sure loser is a wasted vote.
Why not try to build something better?
At least THAT vote would mean something.

[JohnnyRingo]

200. Yes, you build something better.

Let me know when you're finished, I want to see it.

[bvar22]

204. "It is not necessary to see the whole staircase, only the first step."

---Dr. Martin Luther King.

[barbtries]

102. thank you! and you're right.

nobody needs to make the proclamation - it won't win or cost Bernie a single vote. if you will not vote for him, then don't, should he become the nominee. same for the people who swear they won't vote for Hillary. then don't.

thank you.

[shawn703]

104. As you said, withholding votes won't amount to a whole lot

I'm not going to be withholding my vote, if Clinton is the nominee I'll vote for her.

What I won't do, unless she abandons the pro-banker platform and adopts Sanders' policies as the nominee, is donate to her campaign or put in any of my time this cycle in GOTV for her campaign. That's where the Clinton campaign needs to be careful. The votes of disaffected Sanders supporters might not mean a whole lot by themselves if they're withheld from her, but Clinton's followers will have to pick up the Sanders' supporters slack when our effort is limited to just pulling a lever for her on Election Day. If we end up with a President Trump or Cruz, her campaign can only blame itself for not being able to motivate enough people to work for her.

[LS_Editor]

107. If Clinton is the Democratic nominee the Democratic Party will continue its lurch to the right.

Want to be an effective party? Reclaim the old values the Democratic Party used to be about - defending the weakest members of our society and making sure we never allow Americans to descend into abject poverty.

Bernie Sanders represents what the Democratic Party should be about. Hillary Clinton represents what it has become.

Your attitude of telling people to "go to hell" is exactly what will lose the Democratic Party the White House. You want to cut out the left and occupy the center with Hillary? Good luck. You're going to need it.

[abelenkpe]

125. +1 nt

[marew]

201. +2

[beachbum bob]

109. well said....I shoulder when I hear democrats, liberals and progressives whine if THEIR

candidate isn't the nominee....you are a fake one (at best) if you choose not to support OUR nominee....I would have never even thought on NOT voting as a way to show my dissatisfaction on who the nominee in over 44 years of voting in presidential elections....and supporting any "3rd party" candidate is no better...look at what Nader supporters gave America...8 yrs of Bush/Cheny and the deaths and destruction....blood on their hands more than those who voted for Bush

[Ochsfan]

116. Debs put it very simply

"I would rather vote for something I want and not get it, than vote for something I don't want and get it!

[brush]

119. Woohoo! Love this post. Show 'em the door already.

[jhart3333]

122. Oh, I'll be there. I'll be the one holding the sign. Count on it.

[samplegirl]

123. Glad to see this thread is doing well

once in awhile it is nice to know that someone in D.U. is being rationale!

[DeGreg]

126. ...A Vote that is just like not voting at all.

I find it interesting how the phrase The Establishment has become quite the meme this time around. The word has always been there, but this election has revealed it's true meaning.

There is only one party and the presidential election is an illusion of choice. And, if you vote for The Establishment Party (doesn't matter which flavor, R or D)––what do YOU get? The same shit with a different grin.


The Establishment is America's one party system that has guaranteed the status quo whether a Republican or a Democrat wins the presidency.
The Establishment Party has wiped out the middle class on purpose.
The Establishment is the party that held down or reduced wages over the last 30+ years.
The Establishment is the party that guarantees the military-industrial complex (the business of killing etc.,) is the National Business. The Establishment is the party that pushed for corporations to be declared people with Citizens United.
The Establishment Party has turned our congress into a governing body full of money grabbers who spend all their time making laws and "governing" on behalf of corporations, rather than taking the citizens interests to heart.
The Establishment Party Inc., is the party that sold out American jobs and industry to wherever they could find labor as close to slaves as is possible, in order to squeeze more pennies into their pockets.

Which candidates appear to be NOT be in The Establishment Party? Duh, that's a no brainer.

Well, I've come out to vote this time because Bernie Sanders actually appears to be offering THE POSSIBILITY of changing shit from the way it has always been, from the status quo. I think Bernie offers a real choice for the first time (and you could say the same thing for Trump, if you're wondering why that might be happening over there). All you have to do is look at how freaked out both Rs and Ds are over Trumps and Sanders, respectively; and perhaps this election offers a REAL CHOICE FOR A CHANGE. The Establishment Party is freaking out, and that's because their hold the status quo would be challenged should Bernie or The Donald win.

SO EXCUSE ME (thx Mr. Martin) if I refuse to vote for Hillary should Bernie not complete his run successfully, but she is The Establishment Party candidate and voting for her––even if she wins––will be just like not voting at all. She's a suckers bet.

Here's the final thing: If you want The Establishment Party to win and keep everything the same, then vote Hillary––but own it, say it out loud, "I'm with The Establishment Party, I'm voting for Hillary because I want things to pretty much stay the same as it ever was." Don't pretend she's anything other than who she is, a member of The Establishment Party Inc.,

[abelenkpe]

127. Sounds like a winning strategy!

It'll be nothing but constant whine here after republicans retake the White House.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

129. Funny, how the left is considered "powerless" and "unneeded" until a moderate/centrist loses.

Then we get blamed for the loss.

I always vote.

[SCantiGOP]

130. Excellent

[coyote]

131. looks like you're nervous

you said: "We didn't need you to re-elect President Obama in 2012 and we won't need you this time either. "...then why do you need to post this at all. You should be content and sleeping peacefully at night knowing your candidate will win, but your post says otherwise.

With that said, I will be voting my conscious in this election. There is only 1 party in America and it's called the corporate party. It does not matter if they have an (R) or (D) after their name, they both answer to the same master. I will sleep peacefully knowing that I did not vote for a candidate that answers only to corporations and says anything in the name of political expediency.

[JohnnyRingo]

137. Typical "there's no difference between R & D" comment.

Simply put, there's a world of difference between Republicans and Democrats.

You must be either very sheltered, very young, very naive, or all three to believe Clinton and Cruz share the same goals in the White House. It's astounding that anyone here believes that.

As I said in the OP, take your vote and toss it away... please. It's a dangerous tool in your hands anyway.

[liberal_at_heart]

139. Then I take it the next time the Republicans demand that the Democrats cut

SSI, WIC, and food stamps during the next budget deal the Democrats will say no? I won't hold my breath.

[coyote]

161. Oh man

I don't vote against my best interest. If you think Hillary is going to make the US a better place for all of us, then by all means vote for her, but you are the one that is sheltered, very young, or very naive.

I´ve been around the block a few times, and if you cannot see what´s going on, there is no help for you. This goes way beyond party politics.

[JohnnyRingo]

162. The issue here is to vote for the Dem in November

Who you support in the primary is up to you. I have no beef with those who come to DU to sing the praises of Bernie Sanders, they have passion and feel justified. I only have a problem with those who hate so deep they would attempt voters to join them in a strike this November to teach the country a lesson.

If you "don't vote against your better interests" where does that leave you this fall? Certainly not casting a vote isn't in your better interests, and a write in protest is no different than staying home to anyone but yourself.

[coyote]

166. Why would I vote for a Dem that represents corporations and banks

Look at Clinton, look at where her donations are coming from, put 2 + 2 together and you can see that she certainly does not represent the average citizen. Like I said, I vote for my best interest, and Clinton does not represent me in the slightest.

[JohnnyRingo]

167. Then I guess you'll go with Cruz

Whether you like it or not, there will only be two viable candidates on the ballot this fall. Nothing you do can change that hard fact.

When you say she "doesn't represent you in the slightest", I suppose that means you have no interest in LGBT rights, union representation, gender equality, or affordable health care. You could flip a coin in the booth.

You seem singularly focused on banking and investments, so I guess you're a one issue voter and nothing else matters. Exclude yourself from this election or protest if you want, but don't assume you're kicking over the game board on your way out. People like you aren't that important statistically.

[Loki]

132. Thank you!!!!

and Amen.

[mhatrw]

136. You are a PERFECT example of a Clinton supporter.

[OZi]

141. I have never threatened to wihthold a vote.

I signed on to support the Democratic party. I'll consider voting for the New Democratic party when I get the memo explaining why the name hasn't been officially changed yet.

[senz]

144. If you vote for Clinton, you get a Republican anyway.

Enjoy your Republican.

[JohnnyRingo]

148. Yeah, there's no difference between her and Cruz

Except one is a caring 10th most liberal senator who will stand up for the lower classes and the other is snide little con man who believes that if you don't work, you shouldn't eat.

Other than that and a belief that everyone should have affordable health care, a decent wage, the right to choose, LGBT equality, and civil rights, there's no difference at all.

You go ahead and flip a coin in the voting booth, the rest of us will make an informed decision and vote for the Democrat this November.

[senz]

150. "Caring."

[Waiting For Everyman]

146. If you don't want to lose, don't back a losing candidate.

It's on you.

[JohnnyRingo]

147. I'll gladly vote for Bernie if he can win the nomination

It's back in your court.

[bvar22]

195. And Bernie is the only Democratic Candidate who beats ALL Republicans.

It's on YOU.

[ecstatic]

149. Any "progressive" who doesn't care about the Supreme Court is irrelevant

to me (as far as DU / online voices go).

It's called trolling from the left.

Nice rant.

[CBGLuthier]

151. OK

[Le Taz Hot]

152. I never "withhold" my vote.

I just don't vote for oligarchs. BIG difference. My ideals aren't for sale. Yours are. That's the difference between blind party loyalty and independent thinking. I know it's a difficult concept but try to grasp it.

Oh, and I'll post whatever the fuck I damn well please.

[SCantiGOP]

163. You will help elect Republicans

I know it's a difficult concept but try to grasp it.

[Le Taz Hot]

164. I'm in California.

Guaranteed Democrat. I know it's a difficult concept but try to grasp it.

[SCantiGOP]

175. on the national level, not state

[Le Taz Hot]

176. On the national level,

we're the Big Enchilada.

[SCantiGOP]

179. and you are already counted in the Dem column

Just like Texas is/will be allocated to the Repubs.

[Le Taz Hot]

183. So, by voting my consciece, how am I "helping elect a Republican"

again?

[SCantiGOP]

189. not "you" as a singular

"you" as the plural of the people being discussed in the Original Post.
If you voted for Nader and were happy with W, then withhold your vote from our Party's nominee and see how you like Trump or Cruz.

[Le Taz Hot]

190. Ah, it's Nader now.

We're down to dog whistles. I'm done here.

[SCantiGOP]

196. Glad you conceded

[applegrove]

155. The whole point is to encourage others to join them. Kinda like

they are GOP trolls pretending to refuse to vote for Hillary. They are trying to build a movement. Notice how few Hillary supporters say they would not vote for Bernie if he won the nomination. The whole point is to say it out loud and convert Bernie supporters to help the GOP cause to stop Hillary from winning the democratic base. They only have a few months left to do it too because they will not be able to do it on the DU come the general election.

[Surya Gayatri]

157. Enormous K & R.

[TreasonousBastard]

158. Agree absolutely, and...

my weekly foray into this hidden forum always finds one or two posts making that foray worthwhile.

It's easy to make grand speeches and threats on a discussion board where nobody knows you're a dog, and hardly anyone outside of a small group of readers knows what you said, and even fewer care. But, these threats to stay home, or scribble names on the bottom of a ballot are even sillier than they at first sound.

Your individual vote is meaningless. It is statistically insignificant. Unless the vote is so close that just a few votes will swing it, it makes absolutely no difference what you do if you do not vote for one of the major candidates. And no one will notice or care about this great act of honor and courage you just pulled off. You just wasted you rtime and that of everyone who listened to your rantings.

One of the two candidates will win. That is a very simple and unarguable fact. It will be the Republican or Democratic nominee. There is absolutely nothing anyone here can do to change that unalterable truth.

I would hope no one here actually hopes for the Republican to win, so hold your nose if necessary and vote D. The point is aggregate votes, and your D vote adds to the total. That is all your vote counts for, but that is quite enough if we win.

Voting D is the only possible thing you can do and still claim you did the better thing. While your personal, individual vote is irrelevant in itself, it adds to the total and has one other interesting effect...

If you don't vote, an R vote is counted and adds to their total. If you do vote, it takes another R vote to counter yours before they get the vote to count. So, you could say that your vote counts twice. Not really, but it might help to look at it that way.

Bernie or Hillary-- just everyone get your tired asses out there and vote D. Supreme Court appointments, Social Security and medicare, future jobs, taxation... there's serious stuff out there that we don't dare let the likes of Trump or Cruz fool around with.

[Grown2Hate]

159. I say this, as on Obama supporter (in 2008 & 12), and a Bernie supporter now...

THE. SUPREME. COURT.

Seriously. The END of the story. Let's not lose it for 2 generations from NOW, k? Thanks. #IsupporttheDemNominee

[JEB]

165. Voting for Hillary is throwing away your vote.

[JohnnyRingo]

168. Then stay home.

It really won't matter as long as you don't vote for Cruz. You'll just be another one who finds what they think are better things to do on election day. Might I suggest Netflix & chill?

[PonyUp]

170. Nope. We will vote our conscience and leave the polls with a clear mind. n/t

[marew]

202. Absolutely! n/t

[JEB]

171. I am not much for TV, ut it might be better

than shopping at Walmart and reading Kissinger's biography. We are vote by mail here in Oregon. I'll change back to Independent following the primary if Hillary is the candidate though I suspect I'll vote for her is that is fucking choice I have.

[PonyUp]

169. Voting for Hillary is also throwing away bettering our future.

[merrily]

178. Why write such a nasty, divisive OP if you don't care?

BTW, 2012 is not 2016. People seem to love them some false equivalencies about past elections. And Obama did NOT defeat Romney because liberals stayed home. That canard has been de-bunked on DU so many times people should, at some point, be embarrassed to keep posting it.

[closeupready]

193. Yawn. And who are you anyway?

[LonePirate]

197. Any Repub president will enact exactly 0% of Bernie's agenda.

With Clinton, she will push for increasing the minimum wage, expanding health care, combatting climate change, making higher education more affordable, strengthening our gun control laws, protecting the rights of women and minorities, maintaining marriage equality and appointing liberals to the Supreme Court. None of that happens with a Republican in the White House.