Why I could NEVER vote for Hillary Clinton

[monicaangela]

Explained here in three minutes:

[JaneyVee]

1. Let me guess...

A white male who would go largely uneffected by Trump picking SCOTUS. Under the bus with women and minorities.

With "allies" like these....

[RiverLover]

4. What specifically has Clinton ever done for minorities or women to indicate good judgement

on choosing a good justice candidate?

[monicaangela]

7. Exactly RiverLover

What specifically? I'd love to hear the answer to that one.

[JaneyVee]

17. Decades of outreach. What has Bernie done?

Also, I was talking about SCOTUS, and the Clintons put up 2 of the most liberal justices in history.

[monicaangela]

22. Decades of speeches

and sneaking and conniving to try to gain power for herself and her "husband."

[JaneyVee]

25. Where has Bernie been over the decades in terms of...

Reaching out to minority communities?

Where. Has. He. Been?

[monicaangela]

40. Instead of "Reaching Out"

Bernie has been resisting the policies that harm minority communities. Polices that Hillary Clinton has only recently decided might be worthy of her attention. The road map that has been used by the MSM has really played a trick on voters when it comes to her record. But the truth is this:

[JaneyVee]

44. Bernie voted for mass incarceration and guns.

2 issues that have done the MOST damage to minority communities. Hillary did not.

He also voted against immigration reform. Hillary did not.

[monicaangela]

49. Learn the reasons why, Bernie voted for those bills

which were not stand alone bills at the time. A better informed electorate, that is my goal, those who refuse to try to understand are the reason we find ourselves at this crossroad.

[JaneyVee]

52. The excuses to protect their precious cargo...it never ends.

[monicaangela]

57. OOPS....

I think you have run out of sensible things to say. Sorry about that. Did you at least take a look at the bills you are so eagerly trying to advocate for, you know the ones you think make Senator Sanders somehow for guns and for the criminal bill? Have you ever seen the tapes of him arguing against those things in the Senate? I can produce them. Can you produce tapes of Hillary advocating against those bills at the time. I believe her speeches were in favor...I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[SCantiGOP]

89. Whoa, take a deep breath people

We are supposed to be on the same side. Compared to Cruz and Trump our differences shouldn't be this caustic.
We need to be able to come back together after this primary is settled and try to save our country.

[navarth]

102. Neither of them seem to be out of breath

and I would like to hear JaneyVee's response. Yes we are supposed to be on the same side but you are making a subtle proposal of the meme that it's all Hillary's now and the rest of us should step into line. This is premature at best.

[Docreed2003]

83. Mass incarceration?

You mean the crime bill that was pushed voiciferously by both Clintons? Do you know why Bernie voted for the bill? Because the Violence Against Women act was tacked on to it. Do yourself a favor and watch the floor speeches Bernie gave speaking against the crime bill. Once the VAW act was added on, most progressives were strong armed into voting for the bill, Bernie included.

[Duckhunter935]

92. some Hillary supporters

Do not care about context. It seems they just live to smear and post half truths.

[eridani]

195. He votes for it = racist. Voting against it = sexist

I suppose you think the Violence Against Women Act is a bad thing now.

[WhiteTara]

103. this one might shock you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511417161
#VettingBernie: How Sanders Cleared Way to Dump Toxic Nuclear Waste on Poor Hispanics (and How They Fought Back)

[restorefreedom]

94. jury results

On Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:04 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Decades of speeches
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1416822

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Only a RW troll would refer to Bill Clinton as Hillary's "husband" -- IN QUOTES. And note the screen name. Why are we allowing these people to post their hate on DU?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:07 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Totally agree.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Over the top and inappropriate
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[angrychair]

148. Wow 3-4??? Should have been 0-7 to leave it

Unless I'm wrong the DUer that said husband, that is what he is. The DUer name?? The person has been her almost 2 years and is a star member and since when is the name "Monica" a forbidden name???? It is not a reference to that "Monica" the DUer's name isn't even the same. The other "Monica's" name is Monica Samille Lewinsky. So it's not even similar.
So, given the vote, are we no longer allowed to say Monica Samille Lewinsky anymore? Because if so I'll make due I don't say Monica Samille Lewinsky anymore. I man I wouldn't want to break any rules by saying Monica Samille Lewinsky if there are any.

[restorefreedom]

165. du is very quickly becoming its own oligarchy

any dissension against hrm will be quickly dispatched, either by juries or possibly admin.

i have a feeling that if the dnc manages to steal this for hillary, many of us will be over at jpr because of a coming purge.....

[KPN]

115. EXACTLY.

"Decades of outreach" -- sheesh!

[Dustlawyer]

29. Decades of outreach and SCOTUS, that's what you respond with?

Bernie had a half century of ACTIVISM! I would love for Bernie to pick SCOTUS replacements. Hillary will put up corporate and insurance defense nominees, Bernie's will pick other RBG's which I do thank Bill for her!

[JaneyVee]

32. LOL a half century of activism in VERMONT?

Please.

http://m.mic.com/articles/124341/here-s-how-black-people-actually-fare-in-vermont-with-bernie-sanders-as-their-senator#.spvUmfDv9

[randome]

35. Well, he did get arrested once so there's that.

Such an activist that hardly anyone on DU knew who he was before eight months ago.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[Live and Learn]

86. Speak for yourself. Most of us on DU were not ignorant about Bernie.

We knew who he was and were thrilled when he decided to run.

[randome]

105. I don't recall any threads about him before he decided to join the Democratic Party.

Did his good deeds go unacknowledged until then? It seems like it. I am not at all saying he isn't deserving of applause for the things he's done. I would even prefer to see him as President than Clinton and said that early on.

But he doesn't exactly seem to be on a winning streak so far as Primaries and Caucasus's go. This continual tearing down of our likely candidate in the GE is self-defeating.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[Live and Learn]

186. You didn't try too hard did you?

Last edited Sun Mar 6, 2016, 03:35 AM - Edit history (2)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016105641

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025811782

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025289688

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?address=103x146359&az=view_all

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002315434

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4225015

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=158x7224

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=105641

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024211169

And plenty more. Gawd, I get tired of having to do searches for people.

[Ivan Kaputski]

188. ^^^^^this^^^^^

[monicaangela]

46. Embarassing...you know better than this...I hope.

[Dustlawyer]

50. He has been in D.C. working for all of us for some time. Besides,

he had no coat tails to ride like Hillary. And what pray tell has she done with her name recognition, use it to amass a literal fortune for herself with money from enitities and individuals who want her to look out for THEM!

Why does she object so strenuously to releasing her Wall Street transcripts? Because in those speeches she set out to prove that she had Wall Street's back, not ours!

[monicaangela]

58. You appear to be saying this...

Lah lah lah lah lah lah I can't hear you...with your finger in your ears:

[Live and Learn]

90. ROFL That is just what I picture. nt

[Dustlawyer]

70. Yep, look in the mirror then. I don't support the Queen of lies, you do.

I have told the facts. Bernie has expressed breaking up the Wall Street banks and the media oligarchy. He has proposed actually taxing big business, ending the one-sided trade deals that export our jobs. He has directed his policies towards helping the 99% at the expense of the 1% since they have been siphoning our share for 40 years. So yes, he has declared clear opposition to the most powerful groups in the world. You call that an excuse?

Bernie has been dismissed by the MSM and had every bogus attack made against him that Hillary and her backers can think of to throw at him. Another excuse?

Meanwhile, back at Plutocrat Central, Hillary has taken every position at least once. She will do and say ANYTHING to get elected! Where Bernie has been consistent on the issues, Hillary has changed like a chameleon. She is so phony she even tries to adopt the accent of those she is speaking to. That's why she will NEVER release her Wall Street transcripts. She told them what they want to hear, which would shock the 99% if they knew.

It's easy to throw out "lies and excuses" instead of addressing my arguements. I will say this, if the needs of the 99% don't get addressed in this election and Hillary wins, she is in for some rocky times ahead! She is the poster child for "The Establishment!" There is a lot of anti-establishment sentiment when you combine Bernie and Trump's supporters. I do not wish to see a Trump Presidency, but I don't believe she can beat him.

[AlbertCat]

157. I thought we were done with the "VT isn't even in the US!" meme

I guess not.

[RiverLover]

42. So nothing. You got nothing because she's done nothing.

But give pretty speeches.

Bernie was active in the civil rights movement (ie, a college kid who organized sit-ins ag segregation & attended the 1963 March on Washington) & championed for Jesse Jackson for President.

I think this alone shows where his heart truly is & how it would guide him in his hard choices.

Also see~
https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/

[JaneyVee]

51. Here's an idea:

Find me one photo in the past 30 years of Bernie reaching out to minority communities. Before he decided to run for prez.

[monicaangela]

54. So because she takes photos

with famous Americans, some of which she has been a member of organizations with or worked for is somehow proof of activism.

[JaneyVee]

59. Theres hundreds more where that came from, and...

So now youre dismissing her decades of attending black functions, attending black churches, grieving with communities of color, celebrating with communities of color, fighting global poverty and AIDS, etc just to protect a man who was MIA for decades in communities of color? And you wonder why black voters are breaking 90-10 for Hillary?

[monicaangela]

63. I have spent decades

attending white functions, white churches, and advocating for poor white individuals. I guess that makes me qualified to say I am ready for the presidency and an advocate for uplifting that community. Don't be ridiculous...these are fluff pieces to make it appear she is heavily involved with the community. Again, these are influential African Americans she is hobnobbing with...where are the pictures of her being arrested while fighting for equal rights? Show me that one.

[JaneyVee]

65. Hillary was 16 during Civil Rights movement.

What was Bernie doing in the 70s, besides writing questionable essays? http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/28/us/politics/how-hillary-clinton-went-undercover-to-examine-race-in-education.html?referer=&_r=0

[yallerdawg]

68. How Hillary Clinton Went Undercover to Examine Race in Education

"A closed mind is a bar to any argument."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/28/us/politics/how-hillary-clinton-went-undercover-to-examine-race-in-education.html

[AlbertCat]

159. to Examine Race in Education

So.... what'd she do about it?

[Kall]

181. Hundreds more photos.

Well, that settles it then.

[marew]

78. You are so right!

Guess some people haven't seen or refuse to to see the pics of Bernie being arrested during that civil rights protest.

[JonLeibowitz]

141. How do you know Clinton hadn't decided to run for president at that time?

[ladjf]

161. There are photos all over the INTERNET showing Bernie

demonstrating and even being arrested , chained to black civil rights demonstrators.

"Bernie chained to demonstrators"



As early as 1963.

[Herman4747]

167. Photos impress you, huh?

So Hillary showing up at a gathering is more significant than her political actions or inactions. Photos do not show Hillary shamelessly pandering, no, but show instead who Hillary is reaching out to, and in your mind this definitely outweigh other considerations, right?
In that case, what precisely does this photo of Hillary with her good buddy Henry Kissinger tell you about Hillary?

[TheFarseer]

66. Decades of PANDERING

and then not helping the people you are pandering to.

Of course Bernie Sanders is sure to nominate the next Scalia. Give me a break!

[RiverLover]

112. Its all an illusion. /nt

[Svafa]

88. So we're supposed to ignore the fact

that she supported legislation that had severe negative impacts on minorities just because she has spent her entire political career pandering and sucking up to the very groups she screwed over. Got it.

[Madam Mossfern]

95. "the Clintons?"

When was Hillary authorized to personally put up any justice?

[eridani]

194. You mean to "superpredators"? Decades of vastly increasing the prison population with

--non-violent drug users, mostly non-white?

[Broward]

18. She's done nothing but for the right wingers among us

she can do no wrong.

[JaneyVee]

24. She dedicates her private life to fighting global poverty and AIDS.

What. Has. Bernie. Done?

[Perseus]

61. What specifically have the republicans done for minorities or women

besides trying to control women reproductive systems?

If Bernie doesn't win the nomination, you better rethink "not voting for Hillary" because the alternative will be a disaster, you and those who "will never vote for Hillary" will be very sorry you let another republican in the White House.

Get a grip on your selves people.

[KPN]

138. Oh, because Hillary will win ...

and Bernie is unelectable. Can we please stop making that lame argument ... it's flawed.

[DCBob]

77. Decades of working with and for these groups.

Only a person blinded by intense political bias would not understand that.

[Dem2]

87. Clinton versus Bernie Domestic Issues - NPR

https://w.graphiq.com/w/1p3LvKrMe9f

[Baobab]

168. She's figured out how to use her sex to make people a little less observant of her

pro-corporation pro bad kinds of divisive globalization (pitting developed and developing worlds' working people against one another to lower wages and preserve corrupt and predatory business models that should be dumped like the monkeys on our backs that they are.) Primarily, because its them or us, they seem to feel, its an anti-middle class global agenda. Its called "progressive liberalisation".

It is important to understand this because its unspeakably horrible what "progressive liberalisation" has done and is doing to the whole world.

Voting for her will be seen by the rest of the world as US support for it, and thats a message we in the US should NOT send, because its a really horrible deception of us. Thats going to bankrupt the middle class, and loot the country's working people's futures in a bid to preserve the huge gap between rich and poor well into the automation era. So there will be a huge need for public health care and publc education, which the GATS often forces the 'liberalisation' of (privatization) and then the countries must use a standardized procurement process designed to favor large multinationals based in countries with 'favorable regulatory conditions'.

SO the changes that started in the Clinton era are going to hit women and minorities in countries without strong union protections very very hard not only because they likely will lose their previously thought to be stable jobs, also because the subcontractors from the developing world who will take many of those positions - especially in the public sector (large chunks of which must be privatized and thrown open for international competitive bidding ) do not have high rates of female participation, in fact they typically have almost no women. They will be tied to a single employer and will basically be intra-corporate transferees)

So, just like the Clinton's GATS effect on financial deregulation meaning that black families were hit especially hard in 2008, GATS and its progeny are going to hit blacks and women and young people especially hard because they are more likely to be the kinds of employees who will be replaced by contractors from outside the US, making whatever the winning low bid is, who are mostly male.

Google "disciplines on domestic regulation" to see what is and what is not allowed. Most of what we consider to be discrimntion is not at all applcable to discrimination Hillary means against corporations.

This is the kind of discrimination she likely means when she is talking about it to business audiences.

http://iatp.org/blog/201602/obama-undermines-climate-efforts-in-solar-trade-dispute

By the way, the change due to WTO means that the entire New Deal is rendered impossible because is WTO-illegal. In exchanges in email with (US) economists, I am not sure whats going on. Foreign economists clearly know about neo-liberalism, that's clear. Especially in Australia and New Zealand.

But here...

Something doesn't add up right.

[monicaangela]

5. There isn't much difference between the two

IMHO of course.

[erlewyne]

6. I guess I'll vote for BERNIE SANDERS

He's for the 99%

[monicaangela]

8. Me too erlewyne!

[Perogie]

80. no

People that are tired of the same shit from politicians like.....
Clinton
Shumer
DWS

They do just enough to say they are better than Republicans but actually do shit in making a difference

[AlbertCat]

132. A white male who would go largely uneffected by Trump picking SCOTUS.

Huh.... sounds almost "reverse" racist to me. The "being white is mostly the absence of problems" thing again. (that's a quote from some article posted on DU a hole back)

Exactly how does the Supreme Court of the USA NOT affect every citizen in the USA regardless of color?

[RelativelyJones]

180. I'd say

You guessed right.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. Her chromosomes guarantee good judgement?

Like Libya, Mexico, arms sales to Saudis, and much much more?

[monicaangela]

13. MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH

MORE. We haven't seen just how ugly foreign policy can get under ANOTHER Clinton administration. Her judgement regarding foreign policy is akin to that of George W. Bush IMHO.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. Wow, have you hit the nail on the head.

Thinking back in time, I was slightly relieved that someone would be replacing Condi Rice, perhaps the only fuck-up who was promoted after missing the whole bin Laden and 9/11 thingie. Even Hillary.
But after reading who she kept on in Europe, her efforts to bring in that scumsucker sydney blumenthal, and her Saudi deals, I started shaking my head. I honestly think she made this world less safe. So much for being a great SecState.

[monicaangela]

27. Ding, ding, ding, ding.....BINGO!!

[RiverLover]

56. I know right? I remember a conversation with my RW sister and she was so sad to see Condi go (!!!?)

And I was so relieved Hillary would be there instead. I told her there would be less violence with Hillary. ( I didn't know what I know now)

And wow, yes, I was really wrong.

At least my sis & I can talk politics again, as long as we don't delve too deeply into why we don't want Hillary as president (her from an ignorant RW stance, me from the left who knows Hillary is as dangerous as those who admit to being republican.)

[Ivan Kaputski]

189. ^^^^this^^^^

[Logical]

3. Then get ready for trump. She is a TERRIBLE DEM, but the GOP is worse. nt

[monicaangela]

9. Did the GOP do all the things she supported in the video?

And, if they do, what's the difference if they do them or if she does them. We're screwed with either of the two. I'll take Senator Sanders over the two of them any day.

[Vogon_Glory]

33. Having watched GOP fiscal policy under Buckaroo Bush

Having watched GOP fiscal policy under the likes of Dubya (And even Shrub was far less regressive than the GOPreactionaries running now), I SERIOUSLY wonder what sorts of fools would sit on the sidelines and pout and risk the likes of Trump, Cruz, or Rubio becoming President.

[Logical]

38. I will take sanders too! He is great! But if hillary wins she is better than the gop. Nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

97. Tis not a binary solution. There are alternatives

Like some crazy haired socialist from Vermont, who is getting loads of traction.
And who I admire and support.

She is TERRIBLE. Need proof?

http://citizenuprising.com/hillary-clintons-speaking-fees-2013-2015/

[AlbertCat]

162. Then get ready for trump.

Why? Sanders can beat him.

[Logical]

184. I mean if you don't vote dem in the GE. nt

[Faux pas]

10. Kickin' for the truth!

[monicaangela]

14. Thanks Faux pas

[sufrommich]

12. Then don't,take your ball and go home.

The rest of us will get this done.

[monicaangela]

16. Best wishes in your endeavor

I'll even be so good as to help you pick up the pieces after you make this huge mistake. Take care sufrommich!

[Bread and Circus]

15. That guy pretty much says it all

[monicaangela]

20. He certainly does

and he knows what he is talking about. Scheer is an excellent journalist and has been for over 30 years:

Scheer can be heard on the political radio program Left, Right and Center on KCRW. He has written eight books, including Thinking Tuna Fish, Talking Death: Essays on the Pornography of Power; With Enough Shovels: Reagan, Bush and Nucear War and America after Nixon: The Age of Multinationals; co-author, with his son Christopher and Lakshmi Chaudhry, The Five Biggest Lies Bush Told Us about Iraq. Most recently, he wrote The Pornography of Power: How Defense Hawks Hijacked 9/11 and Weakened America; Playing President: My Close Encounters with Nixon, Carter, Bush I and Clinton -- and How They Did Not Prepare Me for George W. Bush and The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street while Mugging Main Street. His newest book is They Know Everything about You: How Data-Collecting Corporations and Snooping Government Agencies Are Destroying Democracy.

http://www.kcrw.com/people/robert-scheer

[Fuddnik]

30. I've read Scheer since the early '70s, when he ran Ramparts magazine.

Always loved him. And he now publishes Truthdig. Investigative journalism at its finest.

[H2O Man]

19. Powerful.

Thank you for this.

Recommended.

[monicaangela]

21. You're welcome H20 Man

The truth is the truth, and he nails it IMHO.

[Nonhlanhla]

26. I've always thought that progressivism is about responsibility for others

This is why we care about things like universal healthcare, a safety net, just laws, pay equity, etc. Unlike the other side, progressives/liberals are not of the "I've got mine, so screw you" variety. Conservatives are people who care more about their own comfort than about the lives of others.

And yet on this site, in post after post, I see self-styled progressives adopting precisely that kind of attitude of "I've got mine, so screw you." Because that's what it amounts to when people care more about their own ideological purity than about what happens to this country (and to the world) if a demagogue like Trump becomes president. Hillary is a flawed candidate, but anyone who bothers to actually look at her long record, can see that she is generally progressive. Too hawkish, for sure, but not crazy. Bernie Sanders himself has said that she is, even on her worst day, a far better candidate than any of the GOPers.

I'm not one to demand pledges for the GE from anyone. But I do feel well within my rights to call out anyone who says they will never vote for Hillary if she is the nominee and rather let Trump win. I will consider someone like that to be no better than the conservatives who refuse to take responsibility for the lives of others. Because true progressives care more about others than about their own anger, their own ideological purity, their own comfort.

[peacebird]

39. Agree with you totally, monicaangela

[Nonhlanhla]

47. Well, as long as you are comfortable, right? nt.

[40RatRod]

55. Then please don't whine when...

... one of the tea party nominates three Justice Scalia clones to the supreme court.

[pinebox]

154. Then make sure you vote for the strongest candidate--BERNIE!

That being said, 40s Rat Rod.....pics or it didn't happen!
Plz tell me it's flatty powered.

[Trust Buster]

28. Bernie has ZERO foreign policy experience.

[monicaangela]

34. Neither did Obama

neither did GWB. Maybe Bernie will make better decisions than they did, maybe not, but we can at least give him a chance. After all, we already know what a disaster Clinton has been as Secretary of State when it comes to foreign policy why give her a chance to add to her mistakes? Or make even worse mistkes.

[think]

41. His opposition to the Iraq war shows his judgement is far superior to Hillary's in regards to

foreign policy.

That should speak volumes by itself considering the costs in terms of both life and capitol that war extolled on America and the middle east....

[Trust Buster]

43. But Bernie's not running against Obama or GWB.

[pinebox]

155. Either did Obama.

[AlbertCat]

163. (N)Either did Obama.

Really.... just look who he chose for SoS! YIKES!

[pinebox]

166. Eh too many drugs floating through me to care right now

Hospital stays for 2 weeks are fun

[coyote]

36. So what?

Clinton does, and what did it bring us....clusterfucks all over the middle-east.

[peacebird]

37. Bernie has much better foreign policy JUDGEMENT than Hillary, however

Go watch Bernie's speech when he voted against IWR. Prescient.

Hillary pushed Obama, and won, on Libya. Now a cluster failed state.

[Trust Buster]

48. The U.S. played a supporting role in Libya.

That's why Republicans criticized the President at the time for "leading from behind". Britain, France, Egypt and the Arab League were going to intervene to stop a rampaging slaughter in Libya with or without us. Would you have preferred that the world sat by while Qhadafi slaughtered thousands of Libyans ?

[Fast Walker 52]

60. what a load of crap-- as a senator, he dealt with foreign policy every day

but more importantly, his judgement on war seems far far better than HRC's.

[Trust Buster]

76. I don't think anyone would disagree if I defined Bernie as an isolationist.

If he were standing on a debate stage with Trump after a San Bernadino-type attack, you'll never get to see Bernie's foreign policy judgement. This is not a time for neocons nor isolationists. America's heart lies in the middle.

[Fast Walker 52]

114. I think plenty would disagree, I disagree

He's less likely to intervene militarily overseas but I've no idea why you think he would be isolationist. Also, before we go too much further, please define what you mean by isolationist.

[Ghost Dog]

71. See:

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Foreign_Policy.htm

[ThePhilosopher04]

98. Bernie has tons of foreign policy good judgment ...

Hillary has zero foreign policy good judgment. I'll take good judgment over bad judgment every time.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

128. Hillary has. In the same way that John Dillinger had a lot of banking experience.

[kath]

134. He's got way more than Obama, Bill Clinton, Dubya.

Hello - do you not realize that members of the House and Senate deal with foreign policy issues?

[Trust Buster]

145. That's debatable and irrelevant.

Bernie's not running against Obama, Bill Clinton or Dubya. He's running against the most well traveled Secretary of State in U.S. history.

[bvar22]

185. Bernie had enough foreign policy experience ...

...to vote AGAINST the Illegal, Immoral, Invasion, Occupation, and Destruction of Iraq.
THAT counts in my book.
Big "Foreign Policy" FAIL for Hillary.

[Ivan Kaputski]

190. Maybe that's why he didn't vote for the Iraq war.

[Darb]

45. What a whining testament to full scale nose cuttery.

Thanks for sharing.



Why don't you go have a good cry.

As for the rest of us with noses

[RealAmericanDem]

62. Some dems would be fine with overturning Roe v Wade

If it's down to Hillary v Trump and you don't vote Trump gets in. A repub president will result in a 7 -2 Supreme Court.

[BernieforPres2016]

64. I agree and posted this a week or so ago

63 replies before mine and I see 12.

[Helen Borg]

67. I'm a Bernie supporter but....

Doesn't this go against the DU rules?...

[cwydro]

158. The admins are very tolerant during primary season.

When Hillary is nominated, this kind of OP will be vanished in a heartbeat.

As will the poster.

[mountain grammy]

69. AID TO FAMILIES WITH DEPENDENT CHILDREN..

Someone please tell me what the fuck was wrong with that? It was a good program! I personally knew several families who were devastated by this "welfare reform." Truth be known, the Earned Income Credit, signed by Nixon, helped the working poor more than Clinton ever did, and that was the last program the GOP ever put in place that actually worked. The EIC got me out of a hole every January when I was a single mom with three jobs.

[mfcorey1]

72. Well, your attitude, like many others, will help propel us

to the inauguration of President Donald Trump. Have a happy four years, which is all that he will probably last.

[BernieforPres2016]

81. Wrong, it will be the fault of you and other Hillary supporters

For pushing a terrible candidate through a non Democratic primary process.

[mfcorey1]

84. You do not know who I support. I could accuse you of being

a troll for Trump, but I won't. Go ahead and stuff your vote in the nearest trash can and live with the results. Peace!

[randome]

85. Here's a remarkable idea, one I just thought up myself.

How about we all work together for the benefit of the entire 'village', no matter who the nominee is? None of us can take away the delegates Clinton has already won so let's find a way to push her further left. You know, like a team?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[Nonhlanhla]

164. Exactly

The problem is that much of the "Left" seems unwilling to put in the hard work of pushing anyone within the system to the left. It's easier to sit on the sidelines and complain, after all. Especially if one is in fact fairly comfortable with the status quo and not among the most vulnerable populations. As long as progressives remain an unreliable voting block (the kind of voters who would be willing to vote Nader and risk Bush, or vote whatever/abstain and risk Trump), they will never have a real presence in the Democratic Party. And given the American winner takes all system, the Democratic Party coalition is the only viable option for progressives. Hillary will almost certainly be the nominee, given current numbers. (But by all means vote your heart in the primaries: more votes for Bernie sends her an important progressive message.) The only way forward (as opposed to backwards into some fascist hellhole) is to get her in office and bug the hell out of her for progressive issues.

[Ivan Kaputski]

192. +1

[Ivan Kaputski]

191. We couldn't possibly help as much as the oligarchy.

[Bradical79]

73. Don't let great be the enemy of good: my philosophy

I don't know that she will be a good (or good enough) president, but it really could be exponentially worse. It's a question I struggle with, but in the end I'll try to do what I can to keep the U.S. from electing the next Hitler should Hillary win the nomination.

[certainot]

74. if she gets it i'll easily vote for her and against the party

that will continue to obstruct action on global warming.

if she gets the nomination, anyone who doesn't vote for the dem candidate, fine- they'd be irresponsible selfish assholes helping republicans accelerate species extinction and destroy the planet and threaten my family and friends.

but if they advocate others not vote they'd be damned vote suppressing republican trolls.

[certainot]

91. you mean you won't vote for her and you think

she won't be better than the republicans, who are advocating continued deregulation and rolling back anything done so far?

If you think Hillary is going to do a damn thing about global warming.

on global warming and scotus alone, not voting against the republican would require great stupidity and naivete, or the kind of highly principled, never compromising individual who would be living in a cave eating roots and berries instead of typing and trolling on a computer made by slave labor in china.

[cantbeserious]

100. The DNC And RNC Are Both Corporate Controlled - Their Stated Policies Largely In Alignment

Purchasing soap brand A or soap brand B makes little difference to the real owners of America.

Soap brand A appeals to voters of one persuasion.

Soap brand B appeals to voters of another persuasion.

Behind the scenes, the owners of America get what they want - more money, more power and more control.

Trump or HRC - little difference after four years.

[certainot]

170. what total crap. like i said, if you are so principled that

there is no difference to you maybe you should be living in a cave.

4 more years of inactivity and a republican scotus? don't be an idiot.

this is politics, and that means compromise whether you want it or not.

[cantbeserious]

175. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[HockeyMom]

75. While I prefer President Sanders,

President Clinton is FAR better than President Trump. The Donald with a Republican controlled Congress would be a DISASTER for America.

[wryter2000]

173. Thanks, HockeyMom

I see fabulous Bernie supporters all over DU, as great as Bernie is. But so many of his people here are throwing a temper tantrum. It's sad to see.

[Trust Buster]

79. On Super Tuesday, Hillary garnered a whopping 4 out of 5 African American votes.

Would someone please tell me why that would be if Hillary has been so horrible on minority outreach while Bernie's been so exceptional on minority outreach ?

[Zambero]

93. NEVER fatigue has set in

I'm having things to say to both entrenched "my candidate of nobody" camps these days. There are Bernie and Hillary supporters who have pledged to NEVER vote for the other one, should their candidate not win the nomination. It's gotten to the point where these two opposite camps have merged into a single entity that would thrill the dayiights over any GOP strategist who might lament the possible outcome from the divisions that THEIR party is experiencing these days. I make no bones about it -- there are substantive policy differences between the two remaining Democratic candidates, and on that basis people have every right to advocate and support one or the other. There are also commonalities on certain issues who both Clinton and Sanders are on the same page. Protecting Roe v. Wade is one example and there are many others. The spectre of a Supreme Court made up of lifetime appointees who ascribe to the Scalia philosophy of right-wing judicial activism is sobering indeed. Labeling Bernie as an "un-electable Socialist who alienates the black community" or Hillary as a "corrupt Republican in sheep's clothing", blah balh, is rhetotical rubbish that borrows much from what is emanating from the GOP echo chamber these days. Sitting out the election is a recipe for disaster with grave consequences.

[Starry Messenger]

96. *yawn*

[w4rma]

99. The coalition between the progressive wing and the neoliberal wing needs to remain intact.

These "I'll never vote for xxx" are not helpful.

[cantbeserious]

101. This Revolt Has Been Building For Years - The DWS, DNC, DLC, Third-Way Has Only Themselves To Blame

eom

[w4rma]

106. Correct and it will continue no matter whether Bernie wins the White house or a corporate backed

candidate wins the white house. Fight them in the primaries, and quit walking away from the party and leaving progressives high-and-dry in the primaries.

[cantbeserious]

111. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[w4rma]

113. Some people have a lot more at stake in these elections than you might. And they are fearful.

Progressives can't win the White House without working with either neoliberals or conservatives. Conservatives are bigots and neoliberals are corporatists. In order for progressive voters to be able to tell the truth, progressive voters must also be willing to openly compromise.

[cantbeserious]

118. Some People Are Fearful With Either Choice - Trump Or HRC

eom

[w4rma]

122. I am. I know how vindictive that Clinton is and how she is attempting to sabotage progressive

candidates throughout the nation, right now, in their primaries and she will even work to deny them funds from the DNC in the general election.

[cantbeserious]

124. That Is Why Some Citizens Will Vote For Neither Trump Nor HRC

eom

[w4rma]

125. The coalition between the progressive wing and the neoliberal wing needs to remain intact. (nt)

[cantbeserious]

126. This Revolt Has Been Building For Years - The DWS, DNC, DLC, Third-Way Has Only Themselves To Blame

Will Not Happen.

[w4rma]

129. Correct and it will continue no matter whether Bernie wins the White house or a corporate backed

candidate wins the white house. Fight them in the primaries, and quit walking away from the party and leaving progressives high-and-dry in the primaries.

[cantbeserious]

130. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[w4rma]

133. Some people have a lot more at stake in these elections than you might. And they are fearful.

Progressives can't win the White House without working with either neoliberals or conservatives. Conservatives are bigots and neoliberals are corporatists. In order for progressive voters to be able to tell the truth, progressive voters must also be willing to openly compromise.

[cantbeserious]

137. Some People Are Fearful With Either Choice - Trump Or HRC

eom

[w4rma]

139. I am. I know how vindictive that Clinton is and how she is attempting to sabotage progressive

candidates throughout the nation, right now, in their primaries and she will even work to deny them funds from the DNC in the general election.

[cantbeserious]

143. That Is Why Some Citizens Will Vote For Neither Trump Nor HRC

eom

[w4rma]

146. The coalition between the progressive wing and the neoliberal wing needs to remain intact.

These "I'll never vote for xxx" are not helpful.

What if neoliberal supporters decided to say "I'll never vote for the progressive"? Then progressives can't win office.

What if neoliberal supporters decided to tune out progressives, expecting more "I'll never vote for xxx" bullshit?

These coalitions are double-edged swords. And, the fact of the matter is that Trump just isn't progressive enough on economic issues to give him the election. In fact, a decent analysis, shows that he's full of rhetoric and will only give the investor class *more* power.

[cantbeserious]

147. This Revolt Has Been Building For Years - The DWS, DNC, DLC, Third-Way Has Only Themselves To Blame

eom

[w4rma]

150. Correct and it will continue no matter whether Bernie wins the White house or a corporate backed

candidate wins the white house. Fight them in the primaries, and quit walking away from the party and leaving progressives high-and-dry in the primaries. PROGRESSIVES NEED TO TURN OUT FOR THE PRIMARIES - NOW and FOREVER. Quit ceding the primaries to the moneyed candidates.

[cantbeserious]

177. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[cantbeserious]

178. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[RiverLover]

136. Unbelievable.

That you believe this.

[Scruffy1]

131. For the first time since 1970 I may not vote a straight ticket.

All this nonsense about Trump isn't playing with me. He couldn't get elected dogcatcher. Having 30-40% support of the 8-15% who vote in primaries or caucuses doesn't mean diddly squat. I only get one vote and at least to me voting for her would be gving my vote to a war hawk Republican neocon, which I would never do. When her supporters talk about "loyalty" I cringe. No one has been more loyal than me to the democratic party, but it's a two way street. If they nominate a an R it's not my party anymore and clearly it's not my party. Experience at screwing poor and minorities and creating disastrous wars doesn't give her any credibility.I am also seriously thinking of leaving the country.

[cantbeserious]

140. Agreed Completely

eom

[redstateblues]

169. That old smear of "Hillary is a Republican" She was the 11th most liberal Senator

in Congress. Not good enough for the Purity Party but good enough for the electorate in the US.

[malthaussen]

104. Flip the question:

... could you vote against Donald Trump?

-- Mal

[w4rma]

109. You don't want to go down that road of "voting against".

Trump is the best candidate that the Republican Party could possibly come up with. He's vulgar and he's uncensored and he's racist - like the rest of the Republican Party is -, but he's *their* revolt against the corporate backed candidates.

[malthaussen]

116. Yeah, I'm hip.

But I do, in fact, want to go down that road, because in the final analysis, this election may very well come down to those who are willing to vote against Mr Trump. Because it isn't just about a revolution, but the quality of the revolution. Both Mr Sanders and Mr Trump will bring one. Personally, I'd rather not live in the world that will result from Mr Trump's.

-- Mal

[w4rma]

119. That's nice for you, but the swing voters in this election are coming from a completely different

point of view and lifestyle.

[Madam Mossfern]

107. I still say that Donald

is working for Hillary.


It's the only reason I can think of for his bizarre behavior. The problem is that the more outrageous he is, the more support he gets from the haters. What his success does illustrate is that we have not come very far in the past several decades.

Nothing makes sense any more.
Nothing.

[Deadshot]

108. I caucused for Bernie Sanders on Tuesday in my first ever caucus and he won my state.

Minnesota.

Go Bernie!

I'll never vote for Hillary.

[sus453]

110. Hillary

Hillary is Donald Trump Lite.

[RiverLover]

127. Actually on many issues, Donald is to her left.

For one example out of several, we had to bully & beg her to promise not to cut Social Security. And like Obama, her husband famously wanted to cut it. And privatize it. (google found this tidbit, some Bill Clinton love over at the conservative Cato Instit....darn they must have been disappointed Bush failed to privatize it too.)

Whereas with theDonald, he just came out & said he wants to protect SS & Medicare.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/donald-trump-the-protector/471837/

[w4rma]

152. In *rhetoric*. His tax plan is to the right of her, while he talks as if it's left of her.

There are other examples.

And like Jim Webb says, Trump could be really bad or really good. I.E. he could start World War III or he could undermine the corporatists' power in America. But, who the fuck knows? What we know so far, is that he's willing to sick "brownshirts" on minorities. He's willing to terrorize people into keeping their mouths shut about their disagreements.

[kath]

153. true.

he has also spoken out against the disastrous invasion and occupation of Iraq, and he is for universal healthcare.

[w4rma]

156. He *says* he's for universal heath care, but his actual proposals aren't.

I think he has some proposal somewhere that isn't at all universal healthcare.

[Scruffy1]

144. She scares me more than Trump.

A Trump presidency is unlikely in any case, but he would be a complete bumble in office. Like Harry Truman said about Eisenhower,who he liked and respected, "Wait until he gives an order and nothing happens." The President is not a King. All successful Presidents have been successful in creating a consensus in their cabinet and the powers that be, including the permanent Washington establishment. It's nothing like running a business where you have the power to hire and fire everyone that doesn't kiss your bright orange ass.

[Brainstormy]

117. Then Donald Trump will appreciate your vote. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

142. Did she say she would vote for Trump?

Looks to me like she and Robert Scheer are saying they won't vote for Hillary.

I'm not voting for Hillary or Trump.

[kgnu_fan]

120. kick

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

121. Wait for it. Robert Scheer and Democracy Now are right wing.

[navarth]

123. In the context of a HRC candidacy it is difficult to contemplate voting for the Dem candidate

.....but not impossible.

I would never vote for Sec. Clinton but I would surely vote against whichever monstrosity put forward by the Reptilian Party.

[WishfulThinker]

135. My sentiments EXACTLY!

She's a wolf in sheep's clothing!

[Autumn]

149. A very informative three minutes it was. nt

[SoapBox]

151. Thank you Robert.

No...More...Clintons.

[Frances]

160. Once the primaries are over, will threads saying someone will never vote for the winner be allowed?

If a person won't vote for the eventual nominee, whoever that is, then why would the person be posting on Democratic Underground?

[redstateblues]

171. Nope. That can't come soon enough for me.

[wryter2000]

174. God, I hope you're right

Can't some soon enough.

[wryter2000]

172. Yipee!

Welcome President Trump!

[MaggieD]

176. LOL

[ismnotwasm]

179. .

[TeddyR]

182. I'm going to vote for whomever

The Dems nominate. That said, I am no fan of Clinton. The email server issue, even if she isn't indicted, shows a complete disregard for the rules/law and reflects poorly on her judgment. Really poorly. She's the worst Dem candidate since Dukakis.

[Beacool]

183. People who refuse to vote for the Democratic nominee are selfish fools.

I would vote for a root vegetable if it had a "D" after its name to prevent Trump from becoming president. The man is an abomination and represents the antithesis of Democratic values. Politics aside, he's also temperamentally unfit for office. The Republican party big wigs are aware of that fact, that's why they're in despair that they haven't found a way to stop him.

Hillary or Sanders would be a thousand times better than Trump.

[IsItJustMe]

187. Yes, it sucks to vote for the worst of two evils

Assuming we are talking about Trump vs Clinton, but I remember a friend of mine who said she could not vote for
Al Gore and voted for Ralph Nader instead. Man, after 8 years of war in Iraq, was she ever sorry. Fact of the matter is, we are gonna get one or the other. So good luck that purism you got going there.

[eridani]

193. If I lived in a purple state, I sure the hell would.

Those of us who live in very red or very blue states can do whatever we want, as it doesn't matter.

[quantass]

196. +1

[senz]

197. K&R -- very well said.

Fun to watch the Hill fans' gymnastics.

[creon]

198. I will vote

For the nominee of the Democratic Party.
be it Sanders or Clinton.