2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSince Catholics don't want their insurance to pay for birth control, does that mean that.....
Muslims and Jews can insist food stamps cannot be used to buy pork products, because their tax dollars help fund the food stamp program?
brewens
(13,623 posts)(insert derogatory term) want to take away your bacon! That's a great example of what can happen when you insist on breaking down the barrier between church and state.
2labslib
(48 posts)Watching all the outrage over it would be hysterical!
RC
(25,592 posts)Carry this BS far enough and it will put the insurance companies out of business.
Single Payer anyone?
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)The way I see it is that the catholic church wants everyone in this country to live the way the church thinks it should be. They use tax free money to promote their aganda. They get this money from the people that attend this church. So anyone that gives money to the catholic church helps promote this agenda.
I know a lot of people that call themselves catholic but rarely if at all go to church.
The question begs, which group do you fall into.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)local area non-christain places. I give to children's causes and elderly causes. Not one dime to any church. I am not into any organizated church any longer. I consider myself a catholic. I didn't leave the church and god. The church left us.
TexasProgresive
(12,159 posts)Your broad brush can cut more ways. The position you take could be considered rank prejudice.
When it comes to money most of it from my parish goes to pay the bills.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)In what I stated where am I wrong??
_ed_
(1,734 posts)"It's not that all Republicans are racist, it's just the people they choose to represent them in public office."
treestar
(82,383 posts)Eventually the top of the hierarchy will have to catch up with the people If 98% of Catholic use birth control, then that doctrine is not going to survive much longer.
niyad
(113,582 posts)for their insanity, whether over this, or the sex abuse scandals, or anything else.
it's nice to say that "we don't all feel that way", but you aren't the ones in charge, and the lunatics in charge do.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)But just like a Jewish person born in his/her faith so am I born into my catholic faith. The hierarchy are not speaking for many of us. But we don't want to be excommunicated either. Sorry if you aren't satisfied with that. I respect your right not to agree with me. Its very hard to explain how many of us love our faith in god and separate from the hierachy bs. I wish and I know someday will be allowed to become priest. I may not see it but I hope my granddaughter will. After all there was a time little girls couldn't be altar girls. I have 2 nieces who are.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)As long as you identify yourself with the crazy people running the show, you are going to get some paint on you.
Your options are to change what you identify yourself as, or change the people running the show.
Until one or the other happens, I recommend wearing old clothes you don't mind getting some paint on. Because by not doing either one, you are agreeing with the people in charge.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)in. I don't know the church you are talking about. I am 64 yrs old and never have seen any priest act like that. But if I do you can bet I will report him and not to the bishop or cardinal. I will call the police. I know how to do the right thing. Besides that you can find crazy in anyones church. Believe me Iworked in a church and saw alot of crazy different faiths. But I don't paint everyone with the same brush. I rather meet a person one on one.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)is that's the only way the church will change. From their own membership rising up against them - they frankly don't give a damn what those of us outside think.
So as long as the church bosses insist on fucking with my life, I'm not going to give any Catholic "the benefit of the doubt". Don't like it? Then complain to the ones trying to assert their power over my life.
If you find that unpleasant, well having a bishop climb into my marital bed is a lot more unpleasant.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)about the whole church. So lets agree to disagree and we can still be civil as we have been. Thank again.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)It's like a liberal person being a Republican and saying "Don't use ALL Republicans with that brush. We all don't feel like that."
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)that doesn't mean I don't believe in my church. It's the pope, cardinals and bishops I don't trust. I would trust my local priest because he usually deals with people.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)So what? I realized that I shouldn't be a part of an organization that demonizes gay people and is actively preventing them from enjoying full franchise in American life. The Catholic church is a hate group.
You say "that doesn't mean I don't believe in my church." Yes, it does. You just said you don't agree with the pope, cardinals, and bishops. That's the leadership of the Catholic church, and those are the men who determine the articles of your faith.
So why be a part of a hate group with respect to gay people when you already admit you don't agree with the leadership of the church?
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)teachings. It is enough I don't give to the church any longer or go to an organized church. But I won't give up my religion. I believe in the teachings. I have no problem with that. None of the churchs are free from some crimes they do we don't see. I have faith and pray and I don't need to go to an organized church. So let's respect each enough to disagree. I don't think I am going to change your mind and you aren't going to change mine. We don't need to get a heartattack over it. Well at least for me that is (LOL). I want to hear from you again. I am sure there are areas we will most agree on. This is nothing compared to the many issues this country is going through and I am sure you agree.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)dehumanizes my brother and several of my friends just because they are gay. I don't care if you agree with anything else they teach. I don't respect hate and I don't respect people that belong to hate groups.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)_ed_
(1,734 posts)to leave a homophobic and sexist organization. If not, be prepared to defend your organization. Like I said, religion is a choice, and you are choosing to remain in a organization that is antithetical to modern, progressive values.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)No one will agree with every single thing.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)Membership in the Catholic church is a choice. The church has a set of ideas about the world that it teaches its members. If you don't agree with the church's teachings, then there's no reason to be a Catholic.
It's like a person who is pro-choice and anti-war being a Republican. You wouldn't say: "well, Republicans don't agree on everything." If you don't agree with the core tenets of a particular organization, there is no reason to be a member of it.
Especially when such an organization demonizes gays and lesbians, and women in general.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And it has changed its positions on things before.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)was more concerned about covering up child rape than confronting the problem. Who gives a shit what else they do?
What are these good teachings, anyway? That gay people do not deserve rights? Women cannot hold positions of authority? It's better for millions to die of AIDS in Africa than use condoms? Abortion is always wrong? Family planning is sinful?
Not to mention that there's not a shred of evidence that one word of it is even true...
treestar
(82,383 posts)The Church has some liberal aspects to it.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)without supporting a homophobic and sexist organization.
fugop
(1,828 posts)I have NEVER understood why people take up the argument over the topic of the day (in this case, birth control) instead of just arguing the general concept. Someone says, "I don't want to pay for your birth control," choose from the following:
1. I don't want to pay for your lung cancer since I don't have it.
2. I don't want to pay for your ER care after your car accident since I'm a better driver.
3. I don't want to pay for your military, since I don't believe in war.
4. I don't want to pay for your schools since my kids are out already.
5. I don't want to pay for your ... insert item of choice here.
I LOATHE the arguments that someone shouldn't have to pay for something they don't "believe" in - because that's just not how things work in a functioning society like ours. We all pay for at least some things that we need as a country but not necessarily as individuals. If I could check a box and just pay for education and healthcare, I would, but I understand it doesn't work like that.
Instead, the argument too often goes to specifics, and usually it's about religion. My basic answer is usually no. 3, but it's the concept that should be the main argument, I think. We're a society. We're supposed to be in this together. I'm sick of those selfish SOBs in the GOP whose main life philosophy appears to be, "I'll get mine, so screw everybody else."
Larkspur
(12,804 posts)The Catholic Church doesn't pay federal taxes. I think they only pay property taxes on their church buildings.
I'm not sure about their hospitals and charities they run.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)GOP politicians, with the help of some religious extremist nutbags, that want to manufacture a wedge issue.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)If you're a public member of an organization that is anti-contraception like the Catholic church, and you privately use such contraception, you're a hypocrite of the highest order.
What would happen if the 98% of Catholics who use contraception just left the church? Yeah -- we wouldn't have to hear from old, white men in silly outfits about how we should treat our sex lives.
If you're a member of a Catholic church, this is YOUR faith and YOUR faith leaders. If you disagree, leave the church. If you stay in the church, be prepared to be criticized for your associations. Religion is a choice.
steveorg
(20 posts)The problem is that the Bible (and other foundational texts) is too easily interpreted to support any position. Three bible experts debating any topic will come out with 5 different conclusions. That's why the Christian world is so fractured. That is how Christianity could be such an important element in supporting the institution of slavery.
Religious Christians tend to use the Bible in a way that suits them. It may buck the hierarchy, but that doesn't necessarily conflict with how they pick and choose their personal interpretations of the Bible. A Picker and Chooser (my synonym for religious types) freely rejects even the most straightforward Biblical admonishment. For example, modern Pickers and Choosers do not stone adulterers to death. Could you imagine Newt, as a serial adulterer, agreeing that he should have been stoned to death multiple times?
treestar
(82,383 posts)If 90% use it, then soon the men in silly outfits are going to have to accept that.
Church doctrines do change.
Iggo
(47,571 posts)rox63
(9,464 posts)And I'm not sure that Christian Scientists would want insurance to cover anything other than faith healing.
treestar
(82,383 posts)This is why the right's "separation of church and state (which they suddenly care about) is a logic fail. Just because your insurance covers it does not mean you "have" to use it. A Catholic who follows that rule (in the minority) can still go without birth control - that choice is still there.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)disagreeing with one's religion's leadership's current positions on things is as old as humanity.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)being a Republican. If you don't agree with an organization's fundamental teachings, why be a member at all? Religion is a choice.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Very simple observation that people don't agree with every detail of their religions.
As for why people don't leave? Would you marry someone who didn't agree with you 100% of the time?
_ed_
(1,734 posts)and supports keeping women as second-class citizens.
People are responsible for their associations. No one said anything about agreeing with 100% of what they do. The Catholic church is a hate group.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)_ed_
(1,734 posts)get to force you to wear a burkha.
NOI4I
(34 posts)If you receive foodStamps you buy whatever food you want/choose.
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)WHile I don't support their stand, food stamps are a direct government subsidy. The purchase of insurance is an entirely private matter that does not use federal funds. Your analogy does not hold water.
However, as a Quaker, I would love to stop paying tax dollars for war. I don't mind the taxes, just would prefer my dollars to go to schools, protecting the environment, or something non-military like that.