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davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:59 PM Feb 2016

The "free stuff" argument is a deliberate lie.

Manipulation of the truth, willfully ignorant statement, any of these would accurately apply.

We have seen various posts, statements from public figures - and so on, that suggest that Sanders is offering, "Free this, free that, free everything." Or suggesting that both he and his supporters are ignorant of the reality that these things will require work, raising taxes, new taxes, etc. This ("free stuff" argument) is so ridiculously false and inaccurate that we should all acknowledge it as the pile of crap that it is.

No one believes that we're going to get a bunch of "free stuff" for nothing. We are all aware of the fact that progressive change requires hard work, that these proposals will require funding through progressive tax legislation, through hard work, through marching in the streets if it comes to that. We are not promising "all this free stuff for nothing", nor are we suggesting that "you don't have to work for it".

To paint these proposals and policies (and the people representing them) in such a way as to suggest we are ignorant of hard work, of having to pay for/fight for what we want, is just silly. Most Sanders supporters come from the ranks of the poor, the working class, the middle class. Very few come from the elite, entitled, enormously wealthy 1%.

We are tired of not having access to healthcare. We are tired of being forced to take on crippling debt for a necessary education. We are tired of the gender gap in wages. We are tired of not having paid maternity leave, of working full time for absurdly low wages. We are tired of the financial corruption of our political system.

It can be honestly argued that these things we want will be hard to accomplish. It can be honestly argued that they may be impossible, given political and economic realities. It can honestly be argued that these policies will likely take many years to put into play.

It cannot, however, honestly be argued, suggested or implied... that we are offering "something for nothing", or that we're simply demanding "free stuff".

As a poor, working class, exhausted, frustrated member of the 99% (with no health insurance, no union representation, no access to many of the things the 1% take for granted) , I am sick of the lie that we are simply demanding free stuff, as if we were so deeply ignorant that we believed we could create unicorns out of thin air. It is nonsense, it is ignorant, untrue - and deliberately insulting to a very large group of voters, tax payers... and hard working Americans.

We'll work for it, we'll fight for it, we'll pay for it. None of us deny that all of these things are necessary. Further, any suggestion that it's just "free stuff" is deliberately misleading. Everyone making that argument is well aware of the reality of the situation. I've worked my whole life for what I want, so don't tell me I'm demanding free stuff for nothing, thanks.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The "free stuff" argument is a deliberate lie. (Original Post) davidthegnome Feb 2016 OP
It's propaganda, elleng Feb 2016 #1
+10000 UglyGreed Feb 2016 #2
The real reason is *Trade deals* block SP. Baobab Feb 2016 #27
It's RIGHT-WING propaganda n/t arcane1 Feb 2016 #4
If only it were! elleng Feb 2016 #5
It's right-wing no matter which party they allegedly belong to n/t arcane1 Feb 2016 #7
Created as a Wedge Issue back in the Seventies. Wellstone ruled Feb 2016 #8
Exactly. elleng Feb 2016 #10
Ironically, its the taxpayers in the blue states that keep the red states in the black. Baobab Feb 2016 #29
Wedge issues and pitting the varying degrees of the poor one against the other Dragonfli Feb 2016 #31
Most of his support comes from millenials MaggieD Feb 2016 #3
I'm touch to see how much respect you have for people..... daleanime Feb 2016 #6
Well sorry - the OP Is simply not true MaggieD Feb 2016 #9
'No one believes that we're going to get a bunch of "free stuff" for nothing. elleng Feb 2016 #13
Well why is he telling you this stuff is free then? MaggieD Feb 2016 #14
He is NOT telling anyone anything is 'free.' elleng Feb 2016 #17
I know, I know, you believe that we've earned your disrespect..... daleanime Feb 2016 #19
Honestly I just don't care MaggieD Feb 2016 #20
How is it a 'smear'.... daleanime Feb 2016 #22
Not working - save it MaggieD Feb 2016 #24
This was the subject of an alert. guillaumeb Feb 2016 #28
Hmm. davidthegnome Feb 2016 #15
If it requires taxes it's not free, so he shouldn't call it free MaggieD Feb 2016 #16
You value "honesty".... daleanime Feb 2016 #21
No, of course not. I'm just an idiot with Stockholm Syndrome. MaggieD Feb 2016 #23
Perfect! NurseJackie Feb 2016 #26
The thing is davidthegnome Feb 2016 #30
Thank you. Rider3 Feb 2016 #11
It's a slur 90-percent Feb 2016 #12
It isn't "Free"... we already PAY for it, We just aren't GETTING IT!! AzDar Feb 2016 #18
I can't believe we are seeing the same talking points from Democrats that are coming from liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #25

Baobab

(4,667 posts)
27. The real reason is *Trade deals* block SP.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 04:07 PM
Feb 2016

Literally 20 years of bad policy, and a lot of lying by both parties is driving the attacks on Sanders.

PM me and I will explain in detail, I just went into a long rant on this and I feel i have to keep it short. Seriously, its got to be the worst and most shameless lying situation in decades. Sanders clearly knows this but being a Senator and a Democrat he is stuck. Its so bad though, that it really does need to get covered by the media, urgently.

Otherwise by the time the election rolls around fixing its going to be impossible. Sanders platform wont ever be able to happen because the trade deals carve our bad policy in stone, globally.

They also are attacking the very existence of public higher education, BTW.

elleng

(131,106 posts)
5. If only it were!
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:09 PM
Feb 2016

It's being used by well-known 'liberal' Democrats. Just keep reading this thread, to confirm that.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
8. Created as a Wedge Issue back in the Seventies.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:17 PM
Feb 2016

Hey,we have had Politicians in our Party go that route. This Free Stuff Story has been battle tested in Frank Luntz's so called focus groups time and time again.

With the dumbing down of our Educational System,these Propagandist Messages have greater staying power.

Baobab

(4,667 posts)
29. Ironically, its the taxpayers in the blue states that keep the red states in the black.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 04:13 PM
Feb 2016

gee, i should write that one down.

Look, if people want to know some core issues behind our problems with both health care AND honesty, maybe Googling just this one sentence might be a good start on wisdom.. Don't argue, just do it..

" 'a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority' means any service which is supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers."

Curious whether that is enough to get people started - so please let me know where that brings you and if its enough to gather the core facts with..



Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
31. Wedge issues and pitting the varying degrees of the poor one against the other
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 05:26 PM
Feb 2016

As well as other, IMO nastier wedge issue to pit us against each other, so that we, the 99% that earn all the wealth can be easily duped into directly giving it to, or allowing the Aristocracy (Oligarchy if you prefer) to steal it without a fight is fast becoming not only a GOP tactic, but now the most favored tactic of Right wing Democrats most notably the Clinton campaign (Possibly on the advice of noted slime merchant and wedge issue expert David Brock).

They do it because they know the only way an extremely small minority of people can continue aquiring nearly all the wealth (that we the majority create) is by stopping us from uniting against the real enemy, those few that have stolen all the wealth. Divide and conquer, keep us fighting each other, discourage the unity that MLK knew was our only hope.



I wrote about the strategy of divide and conquer vs the strategy of uniting for the benefit of all,l if anyone would care to read about it.

HERE

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
3. Most of his support comes from millenials
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:06 PM
Feb 2016

... paying little or no taxes. I suspect that is why Bernie's opening gambit was "free college." And "free college" are his words. No one put those words in his mouth. So no one is lying about what Bernie said. To this day, it's on his web site "time to make college free"

What a convenient way to get the kids behind you, huh?

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
9. Well sorry - the OP Is simply not true
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:17 PM
Feb 2016

He is offering people "free" stuff using the word "free." No one is "lying" about that. And he's telling you it's free because politicians who tell you they will raise your taxes don't get elected.

elleng

(131,106 posts)
13. 'No one believes that we're going to get a bunch of "free stuff" for nothing.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:20 PM
Feb 2016

We are all aware of the fact that progressive change requires hard work, that these proposals will require funding through progressive tax legislation, through hard work, through marching in the streets if it comes to that. We are not promising "all this free stuff for nothing", nor are we suggesting that "you don't have to work for it".'

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
14. Well why is he telling you this stuff is free then?
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:25 PM
Feb 2016

Serious question. Because his millennial supporters DO believe him. And it will be free for them, just like he is telling them.

You go ahead and march in the streets. The GOP doesn't give a shit. I can promise you that. Instead of marching why not spend the next 4 years electing Dems to state legislatures so we can get rid of gerrymandering and take back the house.

elleng

(131,106 posts)
17. He is NOT telling anyone anything is 'free.'
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:32 PM
Feb 2016

Some of us pay attention.

I don't march in the streets, and I'm a senior citizen supporting Martin O'Malley, and I work to establish true progressives in the Senate
DFA says We need this progressive woman in the Senate!

"If this can happen in Flint, Michigan, it can happen anywhere."

Those were the words of Rep. Donna Edwards, a progressive champion and U.S. Senate candidate from Maryland, and she would know. Donna Edwards has spent her career fighting against the corporate takeover of a vital resource -- water.

Last summer, Donna Edwards led a Congressional effort to stop the city of Baltimore from a mass shut off of water to residents who hadn't paid their bills. Donna Edwards believes that water is about human rights, not profit margins.

So it was natural that Donna Edwards joined Nancy Pelosi and fellow Democrats recently to hold hearings into the horrible water crisis in Flint, created by Republicans who put money above public health.

Donna Edwards is demanding answers from Governor Rick Snyder and his cronies. And she's going further, exposing the fact that lead poisoning is a national problem that isn't confined to Flint.

Donna Edwards has led the way in Congress in protecting clean water access as a human right, not a corporate commodity to be sold to the highest bidder. We need that leadership in the Senate to block future tragedies like Flint from ever happening again. Please chip in $3 or more to support Donna Edwards today.

Republicans continue to block new funds to replace contaminated water pipes across America. They won't even pay for new pipes in Flint. As her leadership at the Flint hearings reflects, Donna Edwards is working hard to help get clean water for every family:

"What should make us all furious is that this is not uncommon. Low-income, black, and brown communities are affected by lead poisoning across the country, threatening the long-term health and cognitive development of these exposed children for their entire lives.

This is a question of priorities. It is time to prioritize critical infrastructure funding in black, brown, and low-income communities immediately to ensure they are protected from these dangerous environmental hazards. And we must restore the fund to prevent lead poisoning which has been cut by this Republican Congress by more than half."
Donna Edwards is not only taking on those who poisoned the water in Flint -- she's also fighting to make sure it doesn't happen again. Anywhere.

Whether it's challenging corporate special interests, right-wing Republicans, and even Democrats who wanted to make deals for the NRA or to cut Social Security. Donna Edwards has been a proven leader. She knows that the economy is rigged for Wall Street and stacked against working families. She knows that you cannot solve income inequality without addressing racial injustice.

Donna Edwards is challenging the establishment, just like she did in 2008 when she won a hard-fought primary. She's pledged not to take any money from Wall Street banks -- a pledge her opponent in the Democratic primary refuses to make. Now she needs our help to make sure she has the resources she needs to win this important Senate race.

Let's stand with her as she takes on the establishment in her campaign for U.S. Senate. Chip in $3 or more right now to support Donna Edwards for U.S. Senate.

Thank you for standing up for Donna Edwards.

- Jim

Jim Dean, Chair
Democracy for America

and in the Maryland House.

My millenial daughter knows exactly what he truly offers.

You go right ahead and march for Same old/Same old, if that's really what you want.

daleanime

(17,796 posts)
19. I know, I know, you believe that we've earned your disrespect.....
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:39 PM
Feb 2016

we'll just have to live with the shame.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
20. Honestly I just don't care
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:40 PM
Feb 2016

Sorry. I have no ambition to have the respect of people who smear Dems everyday all day. I'm not sure why you think I should.

davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
15. Hmm.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:25 PM
Feb 2016

You seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that Sanders acknowledges that "free college" will require progressive tax legislation. Are you saying that millenials are ignorant of this? Are you really going to try to make that argument?

Another fact you seem to be deliberately ignoring is that those millenials who pay little or no taxes, are (for the most part) among the most impoverished people in our Country. Someone who earns 8 dollars an hour can only be taxed so much - where someone who earns a living wage obviously pays more. Subtract 100 dollars from a six hundred dollar two week paycheck, and that's painful for the worker. Subtract, say, 2000 from someone who earns 5000, and that's also painful... but significantly less so if we consider their chances of survival, financial independence, etc. It is the difference between being able to pay the bills, or having to make a choice between buying necessary medications, or paying that electric bill.

It is indeed, "time to make college free", but no one things this is going to be done by magic. We are all (yourself included) aware that this will require progressive taxation and hard work.

Ironic that you are using the equivalent of the "ignorant children" argument. Yes, a great many of Bernie's supporters are young people, coming to grips with the fact that our generation/s are likely to earn less than our parents, likely to be deeper in debt, deeper in poverty, with less access to the opportunities that many have taken for granted.

My brother in law is a millenial supporting Sanders, yet he earns well above the "living wage" and is taxed roughly at 40%. Both of my parents earn a living wage and pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes every year... yet, both are Sanders supporters. They envision a future in which everyone has access to healthcare, in which their grandchildren might be able to go to college without the crippling debt burden that they and their children had to face.

I would say, that in any struggle for our political and economic future, it is indeed imperative to get "millenials" behind you. We young, ignorant kids, sure made a difference in 2008... and we are already doing so again. Age is not the equivalent of wisdom, youth is not the equivalent of ignorance. Some of the most highly educated, most intelligent people in this Country (and indeed, around the world) strongly and passionately support Sanders and the changes which he proposes.

I am indeed guilty of being a millenial who pays little in taxes, because I earn minimum wage. Apparently, that earns your contempt.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
16. If it requires taxes it's not free, so he shouldn't call it free
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:28 PM
Feb 2016

Right? He can say publically funded. But he doesn't.

Sorry, his proposals and "pay fors" are bullshit. Every single one of them. He has not been honest about a single one based on the data and the facts.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
23. No, of course not. I'm just an idiot with Stockholm Syndrome.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:46 PM
Feb 2016


The Bernie supporter strategy seems to be "if something is not working just do more of it."

Seems to me his supporters have made a lifetime work of insulting and condescending to every single progressive group of voters you can think of. It's mind blowing that you folks think that is a good strategy to support Bernie.

But, as a Clinton supporter, please do carry on. LOL!

davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
30. The thing is
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 04:57 PM
Feb 2016

Whether he calls it "free", or, "publically funded", or "at no cost to the student/patient", or whatever terminology he uses... we are all of us aware that these things have to be paid for, worked for, that they will require progressive tax legislation... no one is under the illusion that we are going to get these things without cost or effort. No one. Plenty of people call our public education system free, but we still pay for it, right?

Thus, the suggestion that we believe we're going to get a whole bunch of stuff for nothing is false. I don't know how I can be more elaborate, or specific, in that regard.

I'd be happy to examine the data and the facts that suggest his proposals and pay fors are bullshit. In fact, I think this is being done on a pretty wide scale here and throughout the media. Should his tax proposals make it through the house and senate... I don't think it's bull shit at all. No one thinks it's going to be easy, no one thinks it's going to happen without a fight. No one thinks it's going to happen right away.

Arguing terminology is one thing. However, I really don't see the flaws of working on progressive tax legislation to fund progressive policies. This is what we do, isn't it? This is how we got social security, medicare... medicaid... etc. This is also how we are going to eventually fund higher education and healthcare through progressive tax legislation. Isn't this what democrats do? Isn't the idea, basically, to pay it forward?

Offer our students a chance to go to college without crippling debt - and maybe they'll be able to become higher income earners after college, therefor, they will pay more in taxes. They will have a better shot at paying the bills, at surviving in today's economy, at taking care of themselves and/or their families. The very people who benefited from these policies will, in turn, fund them - improving our economy and offering further opportunities in the years to come.

Even someone who pays, effectively, zero taxes through unemployment... given the chance to go to college, to earn a degree and thus a decent job and reasonable wage... will end up paying for their college education many times over throughout their career.

I strongly believe that the policies represented by Sanders strongly support the vast majority of the American people. I further believe that if we can implement these policies, we will create a stronger working class, economy, educational system - and so on and so forth. The things he is proposing are reasonable, progressive, necessary - and all of great benefit to America overall.

It will hard be hard to do - that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

90-percent

(6,829 posts)
12. It's a slur
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:19 PM
Feb 2016

That comes automatically to conservatives, like when they say "Democrat party" all the time. Oh, they think they are so clever with all their cute dog whistles, don't they?

-90% Jimmy

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
25. I can't believe we are seeing the same talking points from Democrats that are coming from
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 04:02 PM
Feb 2016

Republicans. The Democrats used to be proud of standing up to the Republicans when it came to taxes. Now Democrats just cower. Sad. And guess what happens when we don't raise taxes? We have to cut social services which is exactly what Democrats do. And we hear the same excuse. We had to. It's the Republicans fault. Bullshit. Fight. Tell them no we won't cut social services, and tell them we are raising taxes. Fight damn it. The people are tired of having two parties that are exactly the same. They are tired of not having anyone stand up for them.

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