If we nominate HRC and we lose,who are we going to blame? If we nominate Bernie and we lose who are

[merbex]

we going to blame?

When are we going to acknowledge that Independents are the biggest voting bloc in this country and that unless we pick someone that Independents can vote for, we lose.

It is that simple.

Right now, I see Independents who lean Dem and moderate Republican going for Bernie Sanders.

If anyone wants to show me different, have at it Hoss.

[I have plenty of other reasons to support Bernie Sanders, but looking at November - it is becoming very , very, real that unless we pick the right person, we could lose and I have to accept reality. I saw too many activist friends troop up to NH from MA to canvas for HRC literally to some of the same homes 4-6 times and then see an historic loss in a swing state not to recognize reality.....this is going to be tough]

[BillZBubb]

1. I'll answer the question

If we nominate Hillary and lose, the establishment of the party and Hillary supporters will blame the left: "The left attacked her in the primaries, forced her leftward, severely weakened her, and didn't support her as the nominee."

If we nominate Bernie and lose, the establishment of the party and Hillary supporters will blame the left: "The left wing forced a radical leftist onto the ballot and cost us the election."

In other words, the same old same old.

[merbex]

3. Yes to this ^^^^^ n/t

[virtualobserver]

5. It leaves us with only one choice then....nominate Bernie and WIN!

[1StrongBlackMan]

12. Or, rally behind whomever is the Democratic nominee, and win! eom

[virtualobserver]

19. that is not a choice....that is resigning ourselves to our fate.

[1StrongBlackMan]

21. Which is a choice ... A wise choice when the alternative is sooo bad. eom.

[virtualobserver]

22. wise, but only in a sense

Bill Clinton, beyond all of his questionable policies, also horribly damaged the Democratic brand.

I believe that Hillary will do the same. This current "email server" nonsense is the kind of pointless scandal that they bring upon themselves with their secrecy and evasiveness.

President Obama was under constant pressure from the Republicans, yet as horrifying as that was, we never had to worry about him doing anything stupid.

I'm spoiled. I am used to having a rational President I don't want to go back to the turmoil, and god knows what kind of irresponsible economic and foreign policy choices that she will make.

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. Shhh ...

President Obama was under constant pressure from the Republicans, yet as horrifying as that was, we never had to worry about him doing anything stupid.

Don't say that too loudly ... You'll lose cred in some DU:Bernie circles.

[thereismore]

28. Well, 1StrongBlackMan, TPP is definitely an unforced error on the President's part.

Libya was probably Clinton's fault. Those two are major blunders of the Obama Presidency. I applaud him for Iran, I think he did that against Hillary's "better judgement" thank dog.

[1StrongBlackMan]

31. See VirtualObserver? I warned you! ...

On this site, you must not say anything positive about President Obama.

[thereismore]

34. Hey! You are saying like I slammed VirtualObserver. Are you serious??

I also advise you to stop looking at Obama as being untouchable. This is a democracy (of sorts) and you should never leave your brain at the door of your favorite President.

[1StrongBlackMan]

38. Yeah ... Okay. eom

[bravenak]

44. I advise you not to give him advice

[Persondem]

47. What, exactly, is wrong with TPP? The full text has been available for months so

you should be able to point me to the exact sections that are offensive. Otherwise you are just rehashing a tired old meme.

[Marr]

30. Except if Hillary wins, those same right-leaning Dems

will pronounce it a vindication of their methods, and we will continue on in that direction. Losing never, ever makes them reconsider their approach.

When they lose, they blame the left. When they win, they congratulate themselves.

[1StrongBlackMan]

33. Re-read what you've written ...

Except if Hillary wins, those same right-leaning Dems will pronounce it a vindication of their methods, and we will continue on in that direction. Losing never, ever makes them reconsider their approach.

[Marr]

49. I have. What are you laughing at?

When they win, they call it a vindication of their triangulating politics.

When they lose, they don't reconsider their approach, they blame the left.

No matter what the voters do, they say the answer is to cleave more closely to their phony 'centrist' positions. It's exactly the same thing right-wingers do in elections. The same thing Friedman economics proponents do with their sacred beliefs. The same thing loony Libertarians do. When they lose, it's because there were people on their side who didn't believe enough, it's never their fault for pushing something that doesn't work/isn't popular enough to win.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Let me add to the corollary

when they lose they never ask why and continue to ignore their base.

[peacebird]

17. Nominate Bernie & win! This truly is the only good outcome.

[TM99]

7. Bingo!

We have a winner.

Yes, anyone left of center will be blamed. We are 'retards', 'emo-progs', 'believe in unicorns', 'dirty hippies' and god damned it We WANT FREE STUFF!

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. NO ... I suspect ...

If we nominate Hillary and lose, the establishment of the party and Hillary supporters will blame the left: "The left attacked her in the primaries, forced her leftward, severely weakened her, and didn't support her as the nominee."

The argument will be, the left didn't come out to vote for HRC in the general election ... and possibly, the left continued to attack HRC after the nomination was set, chasing away independents and moderate republicans.

though, I suspect this:

If we nominate Bernie and lose, the establishment of the party and Hillary supporters will blame the left: "The left wing forced a radical leftist onto the ballot and cost us the election."

to be true ... with a heavy dose of blaming Black folks.

[winter is coming]

16. Ah, the wonderfully elastic "left":

small enough to dismiss as "insignificant" before the election, large enough to blame for it afterwards.

[peacebird]

18. Exactly.

[BillZBubb]

46. Convenient, no?

[Dem2]

35. heh, true

[1StrongBlackMan]

2. I think that the majority Independents and moderate republicans ...

will vote anti-trump, regardless of who the Democratic nominee is.

[BillZBubb]

6. Moderate republicans!

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. Outside of DU, there really are such a creature. eom

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

32. Oh, there are plenty on DU too. nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

36. No ... There are plenty of conservative Democrats; but, NO republicans.

Please don't spread this Democrat = republican meme. The most conservative Democrat is better than the most moderate republican ... Bernie recognizes this, and so should you.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

41. Sorry, there is no invisible wall on the political spectrum.

It shades right on over from one end to the other, with people all along it, and some of the people who are at that supposed 'far right end' of the Democratic party are basically no different from those on the 'far left end' of Republican party. 20, 30 years ago, those people would have openly and proudly called themselves Republicans. Today, they proclaim themselves Democrats, BUT they brought their ideologies with them. They scorn 'free stuff', they think the poor are lazy parasites, they talk about the people on the left being 'magical thinkers' who believe in unicorns and fairy tales and magic wands. They believe that what's good for corporations is good for America, that it's only 'fair' that some people are obscenely wealthy, and indeed see nothing obscene about that wealth.

Certainly not all Democrats are like that, but a good chunk of the modern "Democratic Party" has been infiltrated by these Republicans too ashamed to call themselves Republicans.

[Dem2]

40. Two (!) moderate Republican women at work said they'd leave the country if Trump was elected

The nutcases in the primary who are pumping him up aren't speaking for all.

[cyberswede]

11. I hope you're right.

I'm still shocked that Trump is getting any support at all.

A teacher at our high school supports him - that has me scratching my head.

[1StrongBlackMan]

15. I know the term "establishment" is a bad word on DU ...

but, the majority of America is supportive of that bad word. While we want change, one way or the other, we prefer that change to be gradual, i.e., predictable.

Both, Bernie and trump are scary to the majority of Americans because with neither are Americans assured what tomorrow is going to look like.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I am not

but I get trump, and his appeal.

Here is Ezra Klein joining me in saying that he might be the next POTUS (Sorry FB videos do not embed)

https://www.facebook.com/ari.kitti.7

I went there in August insofar as winning the nomination, and at this point I have gone on record that he can get the full enchilada. Oh wait, in his case enchilada might be the wrong word to use.

I also called him a fascist fairly recently at RSD

http://reportingsandiego.com/2015/12/10/donald-trump-is-a-fascist/

[TBF]

39. lololol ...

Have you ever been to Texas? I see several "Hillary for prison" bumper stickers every day. Indys in this state will not go near her. Please look at the polls. You may like her - that is fine. But what you're saying just isn't reality out there.

[earthshine]

4. Republican rank and file hate Clinton. They have decades of practice.

Bernie has a lot of cross-party appeal.

Republican moderates may well see their chosen candidate (Trump / Cruz / Rubio) as undesirable and Bernie's messages as least offensive.

But, they will dig in if Clinton is the nominee.

Big money backs both Clinton and the Republicans. It's a no-lose situation for them.

[Ron Green]

13. Absolutely. Only the mouth-breathers in the Republican party hate Hillary, because she's a woman, or

a socialist, or whatever (I'm not wild about her just because she's dishonest, and because of the next fact):

The Republican bosses are fine with Hillary, 'cause she's in the Club, and she won't rock their boat.

Real Democrats, as well as thoughtful Independents, must support Bernie. It's really simple this year.

[elleng]

10. Repeating myself again:

'If we are going to nominate someone who 50% of our people can't stand,

we are going to lose.'

Marco Rubio

Repost from yesterday, for thinking DUers. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027631998

[sadoldgirl]

23. And he is correct in a way.

If the repugs manage to nominate Rubio, I think,
that they have a winner:Age, looks, citing Raygun
from morning to night, and a new face as well as
a latino. By the time for the GE he will have been
trained enough to answer questions somewhat
reasonably.

If it will be Trump against HRC turnout will be very low
from both sides.

If it is Bernie against either one, I cannot predict
anything,although his age may really make a
difference in the case of Rubio.

It is clear to me that the repugs want Carson and
Kasich to quit, so that Rubio has the 2 person
contest, but will they succeed?

[elleng]

25. I think he's correct in more than 'a way,'

he's correct even in his probably unintended way. Will be 'interesting' if the nominees are both disliked by 50%+ of their party-mates.

More:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/18/1471588/-Nate-Bernie-Sanders-is-the-only-candidate-in-either-party-with-a-net-positive-favorability-rating

[arcane1]

14. The "Fucking retards" of the "Professional Left" always get the blame, regardless. n/t

[jeff47]

20. Oh, that's simple. You punch the hippies in either scenario.

At least, if you're in the party's leadership.

[sadoldgirl]

24. Of course the left will be blamed either way.

That is the easy solution.

But it might be time to come off that concept
that Bernie supporters drive Volvos and drink
lattee, since most of his voters seem to have
less than $50,000 in yearly income.
There is the possibility to call them uninformed
though.

[djean111]

52. I am living on a lot less than $50,000 a year.

And I am damned well informed.
It might be time to come off that concept of mad-lib demographics.

It is starting to get funny - I am an old white woman, fairly low income, and I gather from several posters that because I support Bernie, I am low-info and hate women. After a while, the demographics thing makes me think of Joaquin Phoenix' emperor rolling his eyes as the gladiator made mincemeat of the emperor's vastly more well-equipped charioteers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. The left

that was easy, in both scenarios.

We really do not matter, and should be ignored but will get the blame every time.

[begin_within]

37. I've completed my answers...

Q. If we nominate HRC and we lose,who are we going to blame?
A. Hillary Clinton.

Q. If we nominate Bernie and we lose who are we going to blame?
A. Bernie Sanders.

[Hoyt]

43. Most Independents where I live are GOPers too ashamed to admit it.

[BillZBubb]

48. I think that is pretty common, or they are libertarians who always vote (r).

[Hoyt]

50. Exactly. Forgot about Libertarians, who are even more conservative, callous and racist than GOPers.

[olddots]

45. when did I change my name to Hoss ?

[gwheezie]

51. I'm going to blame democrats who didn't vote.

And the losing nominees supporters if they didn't support the dem nominee. Whoever it is.

[Bleacher Creature]

53. 100% this ^^^

There are more of us than there are them. 2008 and 2012 proved that, and the numbers are only getting better.

If supporters of the losing candidate decide to stay home out of spite - or because theyre delusional enough to think that the Republican would be no worse than the Dem nominee - the loss is entirely on them.