The prevailing sentiment in this election is crystal fucking clear

[cali]

Anti-establishment.

The anti-establishment vote is far larger than the "I'm just fine with the establishment" vote.

So what are democrats going to do? Run the ultimate insider establishment figure- and sorry, that's how the vast majority of the country views Hillary- against the the anti-establishment candidate. And Hillary has all the freight that establishment carries under the prevailing zeitgueist.

Brilliant.

[peacebird]

1. We need to get Sanders the nomination. Only he can beat the Rs.

[safeinOhio]

2. I think Bernie would be best, but

Only the Rs can beat the Rs, and they are doing a fine job of it. Some one has to ask them one question. They say we can't afford health care, but how are they planning to pay for the huge military build up all of them are calling for?

[daleanime]

5. If that's the case.....

shouldn't we try to get as much as we can while the getting is good?

[Divernan]

15. I'm hearing politically astute Dems say they'd vote Trump over HRC

And I'm talking folks from California, Pennsylvania, and Ohio who have been involved in presidential campaigns, always for Dems, for many decades past. In addition to agreeing with some of his major positions, if Trump wins, they point out, we live to fight another day (in 2020); if HRC wins it's 8 solid years of corporate rule and the death of the progressives in the Dem. party.

Not to alert stalkers: I'm quoting others, not endorsing this position myself.

[sufrommich]

23. So these "politically astute dems" are willing to overlook

Trump's very blatant racism? Let me guess which ethnic group they belong to.

[Divernan]

31. Yes - they consider HRC's pro-prison;pro welfare-"reform; pro-returning brown-skinned

kids back to war torn central America; 2008 campaign snarky comments about Obama; etc., as blatantly racist.

Oh, and they also discuss the Clinton Foundation's pro-corporate exploitation of Haiti's blacks for semi-slave labor via the 5 industrial parks which the Clinton foundation "facilitated" (for a piece of the action) in earthquake devastated Haiti.

[sufrommich]

40. Are your "friends" OK with banning muslims

from coming to the U.S.? Do they believe Mexico is sending murderers and rapists over the border? Do they agree with his degrading sexist attacks against women? His mockery of a disabled reporter and P.O.Ws? Do they agree with this statement from Trump:

“A well-educated black has a tremendous advantage over a well-educated white in terms of the job market. I think sometimes a black may think they don’t have an advantage or this and that... I’ve said on one occasion, even about my
self, if I were starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated black, because I believe they do have an actual advantage.’


How incredibly "progressive" of them.

[EdwardBernays]

57. You've misunderstood the situation

If it's Hillary vs Trump there won't be a progressive running.

There will be an outsider vs an insider. Someone that hides their speeches to banks and accepts hundreds of millions from corporations and a guy that "says what he thinks" and is an outsider. Someone beholden to no one.

That's how this would play out.

Plus many many many progressives and Dems won't vote for Hillary... And will stay home.

On the other hand there's a huge chunk of Republicans that have been waiting for decades to get a chance to vote against Clinton.

A vote for Clinton now is a vote for President Trump later.

[monicaangela]

78. Excellent response EdwardBernays!

Perfect.

[hifiguy]

110. I will never stay home.

There are always plenty of REAL Democrats to vote for. But I certainly understand the sentiment and will vote my conscience. I have to live with myself after election day, and I am sick to the teeth of being forced to choose between the "lesser" of two evils. No more.

[WestSeattle2]

134. I have to agree. HRC does not inspire the masses to support her. She has an uphill

slog with men in general; with progressives; and with young people. Many will simply stay home.

[Lorien]

152. Perfectly stated

"A vote for Clinton now is a vote for President Trump later." absofreakinglutely!

[CorporatistNation]

163. AGREED! 100%

There is no recourse...

[highprincipleswork]

157. EdwardBernays reads this one perfectly correctly, IMHO as they say.

[JoeyT]

62. I have a feeling Hillary supporter's concern over Muslims

will last right up until she starts a couple wars in the Middle East.

I bet Divernan's friends aren't cozying up to Kissinger, either. A man who's probably responsible for more dead non-white people than anyone else alive today.

[monicaangela]

85. Thank you for bringing this up JoeyT

I wonder when people will begin to think about just how drastic the idea of someone looking forward to accepting advice from a war criminal is. And, how loving and caring is a person that delights in saying another person should be killed rather than captured. Sounds like a power hungry politician to me.

Ours is a government of checks and balances. The Mafia and crooked businessmen make out checks, and the politicians and other compromised officials improve their bank balances.

[i]~~~~~~~~~~Steve Allen

Bernie Sanders is not for sale.

[cprise]

146. Yes, her ME record is terrible.

She trashed Obama over his mistakes, but actually wanted more or less the same thing sooner and bigger.

[Duval]

43. To mention a few!

[monicaangela]

76. Spot ON!!!

Excellent rebuttal Divernan. I can't understand how the Clintons are considered such wonderful friends of minorities. What a crock.

[serbbral]

83. What's fucking clear to me.............

is that once again, many have NOT learned from the mistake Mitt Romney made and that is overlooking the minority vote. I am not going to lie, sometimes I DO worry a little. However, I assume that most of those 'politically astute dems' are predominately white. People should learn by now that in order to win the election you need a surmountable amount of African Americans and Latinos (not to mention others) along with white voters to win. I am sorry, but I do not see the majority of African Americans, and certainly not Latino Americans voting for Trump. I just don't see that happening. Many may not care for Hillary, but when the chips are down and if she becomes the Democratic Nominee, most black and latino folks will vote for Hillary.

[monicaangela]

91. Some might,

and some may just choose to stay home and not vote for anyone. Many minorities are really fed up with being taken for granted and voting for the lesser of two evils only to be ignored once the election is over. So if I were you I wouldn't be so sure that people will just capitulate to Hillary because they have nobody else to vote for. Voting still isn't mandatory in this nation.

[serbbral]

105. @monicaangela

Yes, some are. My brother is one of them going for Trump. However, the vast majority of them in my opinion are not going to go with Trump. I just do not see that happening. As for the taken for granted thing, I can relate. Watching all these commercials of Hillary AND Bernie trying to win African Americans over is really getting on my last nerve. I think when the general election rolls around, they WILL come out.

[TM99]

133. There are not enough registered minority Democrats

to carry the vote for Clinton in the GE alone. It is just simple math.

[serbbral]

153. Please.....

There are enough. Blacks and Hispanics turned out in GREAT numbers for Obama in 2012. Have you forgotten? I bet Mitt Romney hasn't. That is how Obama won.

[TM99]

160. The youth and the independents also turned

out in record numbers.

The Clinton Machine and her supporters are alienating the youth and independents left and right. And the independent vote is even larger than it was 8 years ago. Without those demographics, no, all registered AA & Hispanic Democrats are not enough to win the GE for her.

Like I said before, it is simply math.

[2banon]

162. Indeed.

During the early years of the Obama administration, the Haitian government tried to raise the minimum wage there to all of 61 cents an hour, which works out to about five dollars a day. (The minimum wage before the proposed increase was 22 cents.) Diplomatic cables released by Wikileaks in 2011 show that the sweatshops supplying Hanes and Levi-Strauss made a huge stink, and got the State Department involved to lobby the Haitian government against their plan to go to all the way up to 61 cents an hour. The U.S. State Department has a fairly massive level of sway in the deliberations of the Haitian government, considering the United States’ long history of meddling, backing coups, and even invading the country when governments there displease Uncle Sam. Nor is this ancient history from the Cold War. U.S. Marines removed the democratically elected President of Haiti, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, in 2004. So when the U.S. Embassy says jump, the Haitian government tends to ask how high. In this case, they ended up cutting the proposed minimum wage hike of 39 cents an hour all the way down to 9 cents. It might be worth thinking hard about the fact that the girls sewing your jeans have Hillary Clinton to thank for their current salary of 31 cents an hour next time a liberal scold tells you not to “demonize” Secretary Clinton.

Of course, Haitians are foreigners, and black foreigners at that, so maybe they don’t quite count. (After all, Hillary’s liberal supporters are willing to overlook that small matter of her support for the invasion of Iraq.) Perhaps, in evaluating her record, we should focus on her no-doubt glorious history of domestic progressivism.

[onenote]

53. These "Dems" support a racist, misogynist, anti-choice, anti-same sex marriage candidate.

You can call them Democrats. They can call themselves Democrats. But they aren't like any Democrats I know.

[Jester Messiah]

61. Where does that get you?

Okay, you get to call some people out on their racism. Yay for you. In the meantime, Trump won. Maybe you need to partake of some of that vaunted "realism" that Hillary's people are always going on about and get on board the Bern-train to the best achievable outcome.

[maindawg]

116. Trump is the the left of Hillary

Forget what he says. He is just saying what the base wants to hear. He's evil, he's very impetuous and will absolutely be an embarrassment. But when push comes to shove, he's a liberal.

[StoneCarver]

127. You are correct

Trump is an A-hole but he's generally liberal. Pro-choice and raise taxes on the wealthy. He even gave money to Hillary in 2008.
Stonecarver

[Nitram]

28. No Dem who was politically astute would let a Republican...

..appoint the next three Supreme court Justices. That is an absurd notion. I love these little anecdotal nuggets Bernie's supporters use to bolster their "case" for Bernie. I can imagine from where they are pulled out.

[VulgarPoet]

30. Dunno how far I count in that metric since I fell Democratic till 2013, when I switched to Ind

but I'd rather write-in Cthulhu or Nyarlathotep than vote for Clinton or Trump. Trump isn't very friendly to anyone who isn't a white, red-blooded American male; and Hillary is an interventionist who laughed at the thought of a head of state's death. No matter how foul Gaddafi was, no matter how illegitimate his rule, thanks to his death that Clinton supported, there is now an even larger power vacuum in the ME that has spawned terrorists almost en masse, and I guarantee you at some point, American troops will have to go back to the sand pit to clean up her mess.

I'm voting for the person who keeps that from having to happen again. I'm done with people who would get in bed with the enemy.

[Divernan]

38. Your issue is who is more pro-war, Hillary or Trump.

Options for voters are: vote for HRC and get 2 terms of pro-corporate oligarchy; don't vote at all for the presidency, but vote for the rest of the Democratic slate; don't bother to vote at all; write-in Bernie; vote for the Green Party or vote for Trump. (yes, the gop could run someone else, but for purposes of the current discussion here, it's a slate of HRC vs. Trump.

As these people point out, HRC would lock in 8 years; Trump could flame out and certainly could be challenged by a progressive Dem in 2020.

As to Supreme Court appointments, no way in hell HRC would appoint anyone who would oppose Citizens United, since she is a creature of Super PACS and corporate moneys.

[VulgarPoet]

42. To be fair,

We're already fuck-deep in pro-corporate coprophilia-- electing Hillary will only put us not only through eight more years of the same, but will result in more dead American troops in the sand pit issue that she helped start. Going Green seems to be the best option, and then democratic down-ticket because at the very least we need a majority back.

Fuckin' sad day when Trump of all people seems more anti-war than Hillary.

[monicaangela]

93. Spot ON!

Excellent response VulgarPoet! And congratulations on your move to become independent, I believe a lot more of us should divest from the two party system and help a third and fourth even fifth party get started in this country.

[Sunlei]

158. you don't remember how Trump was buddie-buddie /w Gaddafi along /w the Bushgangs decade of rule?

republicans built Gaddafi with their support & pandering. Trump even had him to his home as a personal guest.

[VulgarPoet]

159. Doesn't mean it's ok for an alleged Democrat to laugh at his death. n/t

[mythology]

32. Politically astute and voting for Trump are mutually exclusive

Exactly what of his positions do progressive Democrats agree with? The wall between us and Mexico? The ban on Muslims? The tax plan that greatly benefits Donald Trump?

[onenote]

54. Ding Ding Ding!!!

[AzDar]

72. Most realize that HRC's recent Road-To-Damascus Progressive 'conversion'... will last about as

long as the Primary. On some issues, she is to the right of Trump.

[monicaangela]

94. Reading comprehension is a must...

This had nothing to do with liking Trumps policies, of course they don't. It was this and I quote Divernan:

" In addition to agreeing with some of his major positions, if Trump wins, they point out, we live to fight another day (in 2020); if HRC wins it's 8 solid years of corporate rule and the death of the progressives in the Dem. party."

Trumps position on some policies:

•Keep mortgage interest deduction; knock out carried interest. (Nov 2015)
•Make economy dynamic; bring back jobs from China & Mexico. (Oct 2015)
•Use increasing debt ceiling as bargaining chip. (Oct 2015)
•Strong on debt limit; ask for a pound of flesh. (Oct 2015)
•Grow the economy at 6% annually by ending inversions. (Oct 2015)
•Cut defense budget, & entire EPA & Dept. of Education. (Oct 2015)
•We owe $19T and we need a businessman to bring us back. (Sep 2015)
•If debt reaches $24T, that's the point of no return. (Jun 2015)
•We prospered after 9/11; we'll prosper after Great Recession. (Apr 2010)
•2006: Warned about impending implosion of financial sector. (Apr 2010)
•Prepare for upcoming crash, bigger than 1929. (Jul 2000)
•Optimistic about future of Atlantic City. (Jul 1990)
•Rent control only benefits a privileged minority. (Jul 1987)
•One-time 14.25% tax on wealth, to erase national debt. (Nov 1999)
•Predicts 35% boost to economy from eliminating national debt. (Nov 1999)

I'm "fine" with affirmative action, for now. (Oct 2015)
•After Supreme Court vote, gay marriage is a reality. (Aug 2015)
•I'm no misogynist; I put women in charge of construction. (Aug 2015)
•Disinvited from RedState gathering for misogynistic comments. (Aug 2015)
•Political correctness is country's problem, not my problem. (Aug 2015)
•Obama's presidency has done nothing for African Americans. (Aug 2015)
•Same-sex marriage is a state issue. (Jun 2015)
•No gay marriage; no same-sex partner benefits. (Mar 2011)
•Tolerate diversity; prosecute hate crimes against gays. (Jul 2000)

I would never vote for Donald Trump, don't get me wrong. But I can see where some democrats might vote for him before voting for Clinton, not that I would advise them to do so.

Link to Trump's policy positions: http://www.ontheissues.org/donald_trump.htm

[tiredtoo]

75. Those are not politically astute Dems

Anyone that would vote Trump over any Dem is not politically astute. They are delusional.

[Adrahil]

82. Then they are not "politically astute." They are idiots. nt

[WestSeattle2]

126. I'm hearing the same thing - in liberal Seattle of all places. Blue collar Dem guys - can't stand

HRC, and claim they'll vote Trump. I can see the same thing happening in Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. If they think Trump will be a friend of labor, they're sadly mistaken. But blue collar Dems made the same mistake with Reagan, and it appears we're on track for a repeat.

[Newtownian]

135. Trump over HRC......yeah

HRC is a given......no change and probably more war. Trump "might" shake things up at least. Go Bern..

[Pharaoh]

136. I would not vote for trump

But I might not vote for hillary. The whole DNC collusion with clinton and all her corporate bank money, her skeletons in the closet and on and on...,.

I and millions of people are sick of the argument that you better vote for us because those other guys are worse bullshit........

That said, I will wholeheartedly vote for clinton if the other candidate is cruz. That guy is very scary. I see an ugly fascist theocracy is he should ever get close to power.

[Kingofalldems]

138. Doesn't read like that from here.

Who are these astute Democrats?

[Divernan]

150. All lifelong Dems, all politically involved, all 45 or older

A GS-13 federal employee; an MBA/senior VP at a major national bank; an elected local government level Dem. w/ a J.D.; a full professor (physicist/robotics) at a major university, a retired physician and his wife.

By "politically astute", I meant well-educated people with long-standing, well-informed and discerning understandings of U.S. politics. Although they are not in the Clintons' multi, multi, multi millionaire class, they are all comfortable financially. HRC's expected pro-corporate, pro-Big Finance/Wall Street, militaristic actions as president would not harm them personally - their jobs will not be off-shored; they can afford to send their children and grandchildren to university and graduate schools; their children/grand children will never be conned into enlisting in the military to fight for corporate interests.

But they are concerned for the well-being of the United States as a whole, about the transfer of wealth and for the fates of the non-one-percenters and future generations. They are each anti-fracking, anti Trans Pacific Partnership Free Trade Agreements; are not spooked by the term Democratic Socialist; understand the cause and effect relationship between the US/CIA's decades of political machinations and arms supplies to central American countries and the flood of political refugees and parents desperately trying to smuggle their children to the relative safety of the U.S.

In short, they are old-school, traditional liberals - not 3rd Way pro-oligarchy "democrats".

My post did not claim to be any kind of poll or statistic. I referred to individuals from 3 states. I have long-standing friendships with each. I note from your profile that you live in D.C. If you are a government employee, a lobbyist or have some kind of employment involving either the current Democratic administration or relating to an elected official of either party, I doubt that the people with whom you work would risk publicly admitting to you whether they are considering voting for Trump. My friends/relatives each expressed surprise, i.e., some version of "I never thought I'd say this, but . . . " at coming to the conclusion re Trump v. Hillary.

And, of course, their first choice for the presidency is Bernie Sanders, who speaks directly to their values and concerns for the future of this country.

[Vinca]

3. I think that's most likely true.

If Hillary is the nominee, I can imagine a new phenomenon: Trump Democrats. He is, after all, hinting at single-payer and is about as fond of the trade agreements as left-leaning Democrats. I'm sure this is his plan. Fool the uninformed on the right to get the nomination, then lure the people who can't bear the thought of voting for Hillary. It's a scary, scary election.

[peacebird]

4. I think you may be correct

[eridani]

5. He would also run to Clinton's left on Iraq

Sure, he lies through his teeth a lot, but IOKIYAR

[daleanime]

7. Which, let's face it, would be very attractive to a lot of democrats....

if he could be trusted as far as you could throw his yacht.

[pengu]

8. He'll be to her left on Iraq, Trade, Money in Politics

That is just mind boggling. We're going to run to the right of Donald fucking Trump on 3 issues of massive importance to the grassroots?

It's just nuts.

[Shadowflash]

65. +1000

nt.

[MisterP]

107. the party's been so used to blaming us naughty lefties for wanting too much and taking our votes

home with us (when in fact all we do is get a riding crop across the face and pull the lever twice as hard): they really don't think that there CAN be a revolt, and I guess they think Sanders doses the stadiums with mind-suggestion gas beforehand or whatever

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

117. It takes as little as 10% of the people to start a revolution. n/t

[hifiguy]

111. I can readily imagine that happening.

But she must follow the orders of her corporate masters. When she's bought she STAYS bought.

[randr]

13. Trump supporters really only have two issues

They hate the establishment and they hate the Clinton's. It is far more likely they would support Bernie if Trump leaves a bad taste in their mouths. Bernie could win back some Democrats who had moved into the Republican camp during the southern initiative and have evolved out of their common hatred for all humans not white.

[Lucky Luciano]

19. 3 issues - don't forget racism and xenophobia. nt

[randr]

25. I tend to assume this is their inner nature

[Nitram]

29. No randr, they hate a lot more Democrats than the Clintons.

It is Bernie supporters who really hate Clinton. Trump supporters are equal opportunity haters, and their list is very long.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

119. Just a few items from that long list.

"Republicans approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke.
They stand four-square for the American home -- but not for housing.
They are strong for labor -- but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights.
They favor minimum wage -- the smaller the minimum wage the better.
They endorse educational opportunity for all -- but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools.
They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine -- for people who can afford them.
They consider electrical power a great blessing -- but only when the private power companies get their rake-off.
They think American standard of living is a fine thing -- so long as it doesn't spread to all the people.
And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it."

- Harry S. Truman
13 October 1948

[earthshine]

147. Republicans hate the Clintons and they have decades of practice.

They will come out in droves to vote against her.

Despite her many accomplishments, Hillary fails to inspire anyone beyond her loyal supporters.

She's especially a failure with the youth vote, which is the next generation of the Democratic Party.

Hillary will not be president. And there's a very good chance were about to lose everything - White House, Senate, the House, and more seats on the Supreme Court.

I know people who consider Trump to be more honest than her. This is a real problem.

[Nitram]

164. Your only mistake, shine, and it's a big one is to assume...

...that Repubs are going to go easier on Bernie than on Clinton if he gets the nomination. He's actually an easier target for conservatives.

[earthshine]

165. I agree that both H & B would face equal opposition in Congress.

That is, a Repub Congress will oppose anything that isn't absolutely to their liking.

I think H would offer some economic policies they'd like, for example, trade agreements.

What I was specifically referring to is the long-standing visceral hatred that low-info, republican voters have toward H. Almost none would give H a vote.

Polls do show that B is more popular with the indies and would peel some R voters away from Trump or Cruz. But, he would not get the R voters if it were, say, a Kasich/Rubio ticket.

Peace.

[marions ghost]

81. Tend to agree with ya

Trump Democrats--yes I can imagine that.

Scary election--absolutely!

[monicaangela]

95. My sentiments exactly Vinca!

Excellent comment.

[0rganism]

121. i really really hope you're wrong

cos right now, it looks like HRC's going to win the primary handily.
i think HRC should be okay against Cruz (who is personally repulsive)
Trump is iffy as hell (sure he alienates minorities, but he knows how to present a message)
Rubio is going to be a challenge (HRC will annihilate him in debates, but that's just not enough)

[GoneFishin]

9. I think their top priority is to keep outsiders out, and to get a 0.1%er into the WH. So I don't

think they care if they throw it to the Trümpfenmeister, as long as Bernie doesn't get in.

[Waiting For Everyman]

46. ^^This^^ It's more important than winning.

I think many Repub voters know that too, and that's why they're choosing Trump. They don't have a great candidate like we do. Trump is a .1%er too, but at least not openly bought.

The Repub establishment is wary of Trump turning on them or being uncontrollable. Probably with good reason.

I think both establishments (although it's really one) would rather have anybody than Sanders or Trump, exactly for the reason you said. And the voters are choosing both of them for the same reason, they/we don't want an insider. Maybe the voters are smartening up on the whole.

[GoneFishin]

101. I think people on the left are better tuned into who is to blame. But at least some on the right

know that the system is broken, even if they are just confused about how we got here.

[Recursion]

10. Is it? "Anti-establishment" isn't clear to me

What does "anti-establishment" want?

[cali]

14. I'm not saying it's well thought out. In fact, I'd say much of it

is the opposite. And I don't think there's a uniform answer to what these voters want, but it's clear they view establishment politicians in a negative light.

[Recursion]

17. When has that not been true? (nt)

[Barack_America]

21. "Anti-establishment" kills "experience" as a selling point.

And what does Hillary have over Trump without that? Charisma? Hardly.

[intersectionality]

71. And oh my god, the way Trump has obliterated people for political experience...

He literally just draws a trail from their funders to their policy decisions and says "look, they're under the control of x corporation and y corporation and so whatever they say to you is all lies to line their pockets." Then he's going to say something like "Oh, you did good with your money? Then why has the Clinton Global Initiative been listed as so shady by Charity Navigator that similarly described non-profits have flagged concerns about money laundering." I mean, just over and over she's going to get shit on by the money she's taken since the 80s.

[monicaangela]

97. Sad but true intersectionality

Let's face it, the Clintons hands are dirty and there is no way around it.

[NCTraveler]

161. "I'm not saying it's well thought out. In fact, I'd say much of it is the opposite."

True that. Nevada blew up the whole premise of the op.

[Cowpunk]

18. An end to the pay-to-play status quo

I listen to a bit of right wing radio, so I have heard the anger there against what the right calls "crony capitalism" bubbling up for several years. The pro-corporate talking heads like Rush Limbaugh have had to adjust their message to this anti-corporate insurgency on the right by, of course, blaming Democratic corruption for it. This is the part of Trump's appeal that is rarely talked about by the liberal media. Like Bernie, he says that he can't be bought off by anyone.

[Recursion]

20. I've heard that on RW radio since 1990 or so (nt)

[1StrongBlackMan]

22. And doesn't it strike you as odd ...

that a career politician, who is a member of "The 100" and is running for the top establishment job ... is considered "Anti-establishment.

Only on the internet and PR story boards is that believable.

[Recursion]

24. I don't think we're allowed to go there in GDP...

(Though that, above all, is our big weakness in the fall. No matter which one we run now, they have been part of the Machine for 20+ years...)

[YCHDT]

149. True

[Vote2016]

11. The Republicans were smart enough to dump Jeb and we Democrats have also been smart ... oh, wait

[Codeine]

12. We'll run whoever gets the most delegates.

[hifiguy]

112. And it's a system that is as rigged as

a three-card-monte game.

[Barack_America]

16. This is what I went to bed thinking about...

How each of our candidates fends off this attack from Trump.

Bernie can obviously point to his relative outsider status within Washington. Hillary? Every time she equates "establishment" with "experience", she walks into an attack on her record and judgement. And we here know there is plenty to attack there.

But the anti-establishment sentiment is exactly why Bernie out performs Hillary in every national poll against Trump. They aren't sold on Trump, so give them the name of the presumed outsider they don't know much about, they'll pick him. But give them Clinton, and they'll stick with Trump, due to his anti-Establishment status.

When you consider WHY Trump is winning, it's obvious why Hillary is the worst possible candidate we can nominate.

[marions ghost]

87. Agree

Hillary doesn't make sense in the current climate --the deafening roar--the insistent demand for an alternative to the status quo --on both the right and the left.

Bernie can pick up the indy and crossover vote. Hillary cannot.

[Thespian2]

26. That would be the DWS approach

to losing the general election...she excels at losing elections...weak Repukkkian lite candidates always lose to RWNJ's...

[workinclasszero]

27. Ain't democracy grand?

We all have one vote.

If your candidate cannot convince enough people to use theirs on him or her, that's entirely his or her's fault!

It will all be over soon in any event cali

[timmymoff]

33. yes it will

It will all be over for America. When we get a choice between a billionaire and a corporate dem it will be over, for there isn't much of a choice. I could be wrong, but "I will look into it."

[workinclasszero]

39. People that don't follow politics like the people on this board

Have no idea how radical/insane the republicans are today.

When the GE gets here millions of voters will be horrified by the insanity of the republican candidate.

Hillary or Bernie will be a beacon of light compared to those nutcases. I don't think the Democratic candidate will have much trouble beating them TBH. Maybe I'm wrong though, we will see.

But still, if you can win your own party's nod, you got no business in the general anyway.

[Cosmocat]

49. What is interesting is that is the SAME thing

I keep hearing from every fire breathing conservative I know ...

The grand experiment is OVER, we can just pack it all in if Bernie/Hillary are elected!

[workinclasszero]

63. Republicans are insane nativists

The lunatics took over the asylum.

Frankenstein's monster broke free and is terrorizing the village.

What fox "news" and Hate radio created is running amok

Fuck republicans, I hate them and their anti american, anti freedom party with the heat of a million suns!

Fuck them and the horse they rode in on!

[Cosmocat]

84. True story

My reply was specific to a conversation I had with a conservative at the gym last week.

We have talked and I know his politics and he knows mine, I work our voting poll so this sparked the conversation.

He stared up on how the grand experiment was over after all the damage BHO has done if Bernie or Hillary get elected, and started up on Obamacare and how it has ruined his health care by making it cost so much.

I asked, knowing the answer, if he was using his work or his wife's work insurance, and he replied his wife's.

NOW, this is a guy who always complains about his taxes and how liberals just want something for nothing. But, what I knew was that his wife worked for the school district and

1) the contract she was under was passed prior to ACA's implementation.
2) I knew this because I was on the board of education, helped to negotiate the contract and voted for it.

I told him that this, and he just nodded it off and said, NOPE IT'S BECAUSE OF OBAMACARE!

Well here is the thing. It wasn't, not one bit. Prior contracts had given the employees benefits like it was the 90s, they literally could cover their entire family and play less than $100 a year.

Our board adjusted the new contract to reflect the reality that everyone in the district saw on health care, and set it so that there were copays and deductables that were in line with where everyone else was at.

I tried to explain it was a CONSERVATIVE policy adjustment, to try to help keep his school district taxes as low as possible.

Wanted none of it, it was Obama and Obamacare!

EVERY conservative is like this, the evil liberal wants a hand out while taking the hand out.

[workinclasszero]

88. So true

Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:33 PM - Edit history (1)

When i had real health insurance before ACA my premiums soared to 4000 dollars a year.

They baggers blame everything on Obama. I notice the never say "thanks Obama" for the price of gas or the good employment numbers though, the damn hypocrites.

[Cosmocat]

92. YEP

if gas was pushing $4 they would be RAILING on him ...

If the same economic/employment numbers existed today under POTUS Romney he would be hailed as having saved our country from economic collapse!

[workinclasszero]

108. You know they would!

[jhart3333]

60. Some of us have more than one vote(superdelegates, shenanigans at the caucuses/polls)

So we'll just have to work harder.

[monicaangela]

98. Working harder is how

we got President Obama into office. Not even the trickery with electronic voting could take it away from him. The numbers are what is important. We just have to get more people out to vote for the right candidate.

[HereSince1628]

34. Why wouldn't the dominant philosophy of the dominant leaders dominate sentiments

of the existing power structure?

New Dem third-wayerism with it's never-ending pursuit of yet another compromise moves the party positions ever closer to those of the opposition. The distinctions are neither distinctive or useful as anything but labels for the same corporation of political kulaks seeking and serving the power elite.

It's obvious to anyone who stands back and looks at it that the mash up of the party establishments in the centrist middle is getting the country no where.

And that's why, without co-ordination and while resulting in movement in opposing direction, the immoderate, ec-centrist wings of both parties are growing.

[Elmergantry]

35. Yep. Bernie capture the anti-establisment vote for the left

And with that can beat Trump and his anti-establishment vote.

Hillary, not so much.

[Tarc]

36. Perhaps the anti-establishment aren't the party base that they thought they were

and perhaps the diversity that people of color bring to the party are. Hillary is winning with appeals to the latter, Sanders is losing with appeals to the former. What does that tell you

[workinclasszero]

41. Hillary is winning the base of the democratic party big time.

I'm sure that comes as a great shock to many people on DU obviously.

The evidence is all around us eh?

[noiretextatique]

114. She owes a lot of that to Bill, and some to

Obama. There is nothing particularly inspiring about her message. But her name and her tenure as Obama's SOS give lots of gravitas.

[LemmingWarrior]

37. Give me a reason why this won't work?

A write-in campaign for Bernie on the chance Clinton resorts to more dirty politics like in Vegas. It worked for, Senator Lisa Murkowski, in Alaska on very short notice, too.

Senator Lisa Murkowski wins Alaska write-in campaign
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-elections-murkowski-idUSTRE6AG51C20101118

[LittleGirl]

44. If Bernie doesn't get the nom

I'm writing Bernie in, in November. My vote won't count anyway, I'm in Europe so my vote will only count if there's a problem with numbers.

[hifiguy]

113. +1 except I am in Minnesota,

a sky-blue state in presidential elections. I have to live with my own conscience after election day.

[LittleGirl]

145. I'm glad to hear

that I'm not the only one out here that feels that way. I really hope Bernie wins it all. Fair and square.

[Waiting For Everyman]

52. That's my thought too. nt

[Snarkoleptic]

45. Bernie wants to uninstall corporatocracy and restore democracy.

Hillary.Does.Not.

[JudyM]

68. That's a great line.

[Android3.14]

47. It's going to be a nightmare if HRC wins the primary

Her supporters are foolish.

[Cosmocat]

48. More helpful outreach

to Hillary voters from Bernie "supporters."

Keep up the good work!

[FSogol]

50. Your argument is predicated on Trump winning or running the table.

I'm not convinced that Trumpy will win anything. When Rubio gets the GOP nomination, your argument falls apart.

[Harriety]

51. I would NEVER vote for Trump

If Trump gets to be out President he will sink the god damned ship and I would be on the lower deck as will so many others. I am supporting Bernie, but if he can't win we can't let a terrible person like Trump run our country. So maybe Hillary will get in, and maybe she will do OK, or maybe she won't, and maybe in four more years she will be replaced by someone who actually stands for the people -the real people, and not just big donors. At any rate we might have to settle. Believe me I have cried over this. I love what Bernie stands for. He is my hero. He is the man of La Mancha dreaming the impossible dream. I still hope that that dream is still possible. If we keep fighting and hoping, and maybe it will be.

[monicaangela]

99. I'm with you Harriety

Now is not the time to vote someone into office hoping they just might be okay. Not when we have someone that I believe will be exactly what we need for times such as these. GO BERNIE!!

[Chathamization]

55. Don't worry, they're already blaming Sanders supporters for her loss in the general

Though if you're already looking for someone to scapegoat for your candidate's loss, you probably shouldn't be making the case that they're more electable.

[Trust Buster]

56. I've always found the Ted Cruz argument to be farcical.

Whoever the future President turns out to be, he or she will have to work with the establishment in Congress. Incumbents have enjoyed a 96% re-election success rate. For better of worse, that represents the will of the people in a representative Democracy. I relish the opportunity for Hillary to go one on one with Trump on a debate stage. Her breadth of experience against his weak and repetitive generalizations will prove to be stark contrast IMO.

[artyteacher]

58. Then why are you losing, op? eom

[Jester Messiah]

59. B..b..but Bernie is establishment too!

The Hillarians told me so. But they also told me that he has no contacts and no leverage within the establishment that he's so obviously a part of. So I'm confused. Or maybe they are.

[serbbral]

106. @Jester Messiah

ALL will be ESTABLISHMENT. People say what others want them to say, but at the end of the day, they will have to follow some rules they do not want to follow, no matter who's in office. I know it is a hard pill to swallow for most.

[humbled_opinion]

64. She has more freight than that....

The establishment is taking us for granted, even when Trump rolls out Hillary's paid Goldman speech transcripts our party bosses will tell us how we must hold the line and not dwell in the past somehow her establishment ties will become our rallying cry... This totally sucks I see the writing on the wall... but I still have hope...

[leftofcool]

66. Funny how Democracy works, isn't it.

Democrats want Hillary, as do AA's and Latinos as well as women.

[Bluenorthwest]

123. Odd phrasing you have there. You do understand that Bernie is way ahead in the popular vote.

I'm a Democrat and I don't want Hillary because she spent so many years railing against my rights. I see those who support her as being indifferent to those rights. Sue me.

[RoccoR5955]

67. They do not realize

that Hillary will once again "evolve" back to the views she used to have which are right wing, and throw everything that she is parroting from Bernie under the bus.

[On the Road]

69. The Anti-Establishment Mood is Very Strong

In fact, as shown by Nevada, it's almost 50%.

[turbinetree]

70. If the voter turnout is any indication from the last of these events...................

then the democrats had better get there act / s************t together

I realize that these events are caucuses and one primary so far --------------------but ...........................

This looks like big trouble and I mean big --------------------------------the facts are the facts


http://www.desmoinesregister.com/pages/interactives/elections-results-primaries-2016/#d

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/pages/interactives/elections-results-primaries-2016/#r


Honk--------------------for a political revolution Bernie 2016

Democracy is NOT a spectator sport----------------get involved

Democracy begins with you-------------------tag your it

It is about getting a Progressive President, U.S. Supreme Court, Congress, and State and Local Legislatures

[redstateblues]

73. So Bernie can't win the nomination

But he can win the GE? The last Democrat to run on raising taxes was Walter Mondale- he won one state. His home state MN.

[monicaangela]

74. Exactly cali!

When will we learn, democrats that is. We hear things like, well she has the most experience. When was that ever prerequisite to electing a candidate, there is always someone running that can say they have more experience and ultimately that person doesn't win. Case in point. In the 2008 election Hillary had more experience than Barack.

From Occupy to Black Lives Matter to the push back against Citizens United the citizenry has time after time expressed their wishes. They do not trust the establishment and wish to see change. That is how President Obama got elected, although he did not continue his hope and change message once he got into office. President Obama changed things on the equal rights level, but did not fight back against the establishment. I believe Bernie Sanders will take the establishment on, and that is why I will vote for him in the primary and hope to vote for him in the general.

[tiredtoo]

77. I have been talking to some politically astute Republicans

That have said they will just stay home if Trump is the candidate or write in Bloomberg.

[Cosmocat]

90. The dynamics in this election are so bad

Trump is just a complete wildcard, there is no really knowing what crazy ass shit he would do as POTUS.

You also can't rule out the flat deranged stupidity of this country, so you can't just assume he loses the general.

BUT, as a transitional POTUS election, republicans are set up to win big with a reasonable candidate, and IMO, if Rubio gets the nod he will win, REALLY big, against either Hill or Bernie.

I want nothing to do with him.

Trump is so horrible, that it changes the dynamics enough that it might give either Bernie or Hill a chance to win, and make getting the senate back a little more possible.

Cruz sort of splits the difference.

[tiredtoo]

100. Personally i support Bernie

But in either case, Hillary or Bernie, i see a Democrat in the white house. Rubio may be the Republicans best choice but other than being a pretty boy, he is a lightweight and will fail miserably versus any Democrat. A Trump candidacy would be Dems best hope. This would not only guarantee a Dem victory but most likely Dem victories down the ballot.

[Cosmocat]

102. You want NOTHING to do with Rubio

First, he isn't as much of a lightweight as we might want to believe.

He took down his mentor, Jeb, and totally punked him on the Haley endorsement to put the final knife into him.

Second if he is their nominee it will be a complete rerun of 99, only worse because he has more to sell than the idiot had minus the last name.

More and more since Clinton ran, and now more than 99 even, there are two over riding frames to POTUS elections.

1) The dem will get slandered left and right by conservatives and the media will at best tacitly, and most times out and out promote it.
2) The rep has to REALLY, REALLY screw up to get looked at critically.

IF we don't have the trump freak show or Cruz as a polarizing hard right candidate, this cycle set up EXACTLY like 99.

The country coming off an 8 year dem potus who is leaving the country better than what it was when took over, BUT, with the Rs spending 8 years throwing a hissy fit, it "feels" bad, and because they do this "they are all the same bullshit" it gets put on the current POTUS for being at fault for them being assholes.

BHO is actually less "popular" than Bill was at this same point,that is how badly they have drug him down.

SO ... in 99 an idiot runs on "compassionate conservatism" and the country shuts up the Rs by letting him be POTUS.

Same thing this time around with Rubio, who is flat stealing Reagen's lines, which were all these morning in america/house on the hill bullshit after they ran Jimmy Carter through the ringer.

Rubio is good looking, he is likeable and charming and his message is positive.

Whatever WE might think about his policy, that isn't what the idiots in this country care about. He is pretty and likeable.

Rs will breathlessly scream how he is THE NEXT REAGEN, the media will fawn over him like teenage girls over the beatles, while putting the knife to Bernie or Hill relentlessly.

He will win BIG. B I G. And, easily keep both sides of congress.

[tiredtoo]

103. Well, i guess we have to agree to disagree

My thoughts on Rubio are as mentioned, he is a lightweight and either Hillary or Bernie will eat him alive. As for the attacks, they are to be expected regardless of the Rep. candidate. Ditto the MSM and their compliance with Republicans. until i see something other than what i have seen so far, I am looking forward to another Democratic presidency. Four to eight years.

[Orsino]

79. Not sure that that sentiment is prevailing.

However badly needed, money and majority opinions are likely to hold sway.

[JonathanRackham]

80. We want fresh air!

The old parties are like stale farts in a hot car with the windows closed. It stinks and it lingers.

[Matariki]

86. Cali, it's a psyche game right now

We're not even at halftime. Hell, not even at quarter-time. Sanders is doing well. He tied Iowa, trounced Clinton with a historical win in NH, and didn't do bad in Nevada considering it was supposed to be her 'western firewall'. Clinton is doing badly and so they need to inflate her scraped by wins.

They're playing a psyche game right now - trying to win the perception game. Don't get discouraged. Clinton will win SC, but perhaps not by anything near the trouncing she got from Sanders in NH. Caucuses are hard for first time voters, expect to see big turnouts for Sanders in the upcoming primaries after SC. Volunteer to phone bank to get out the vote on super tuesday. We can do this!

[NCTraveler]

89. I don't think so.

Seems you didn't just watch Sanders lose Nevada. More people backed Clinton, who you are referencing as establishment.

Seems you think, considering what you inaccurately describe as "prevailing sentiment," that Sanders will win SC. After all, it's "crystal fucking clear." lol. Crystal fucking clear who is going to win. We will see what the "prevailing sentiment" is on Saturday. Not sure how you don't know after last Saturday.

[w4rma]

96. Hillary is completely unelectable. Luckily for America, Bernie has a path to the Whitehouse. (nt)

[tiredtoo]

104. Friends

I keep reading here about Hillary haters. they are all Republicans, I have not heard of one democrat that hates Hillary, I have heard from many that do not like her wall street connections and what they mean. But the ones i talk to will support either dem over any Republican.
the independents are something else. some may vote trump, some may vote Hillary and some may stay home.
They will be a wash should Hillary be the candidate and a benefit should Bernie win.
Not to worry either candidate will continue in controlling the white house.

[hifiguy]

109. She is a disaster waiting to happen in the GE.

Completely alienates the left//liberal base who are already sick to fucking death of voting for the lesser of two evils. Has zero appeal to independents and the disaffected. On top of that, the Repig cave-orc base will do everything short of coming out of graves just to vote against her.

Hindenburg/Titanic scale disaster awaits with Herself at the top of the ticket. And when she goes down in flames, the left will be blamed and the party winched ever further to the right by the billionaires, banksters, and the MIC.

Make book on it.

Bernie or Bust.

[AZ Progressive]

115. Anti-establishment = Patriots, pro-establishment: tories, loyalists

Don't be on the wrong side of history.

[truebluegreen]

118. It's almost as if they don't mind losing...

[Dont call me Shirley]

120. K & R

[pdsimdars]

122. Wait, wait . . . . . don't forget . . . ..

Bernie is the ONLY Democrat who beats all the GOP candidates in the polls for months and months now.
Hillary LOSES to almost all of them.
I wonder what the Clinton campaign means by "electability"? She is LOSING.

[azureblue]

124. yes it is clear

throw mud. argue over single issues. Label and pigeonhole. Tell half truths. Attack. Ignore the issues that this country faces. Refuse to talk about solutions to those issues and why your candidate is in a better position to address and solve them.
IOW, instead of uniting to get the GOP out of power, let's instead attack each other and try to causing as much acrimony and division as we can. Yeah, that's a real winner of a tactic, isn't it?

[cantbeserious]

125. Brilliance Is No Longer Part Of The DNC DWS DLC Third-Way Establishment Party

eom

[Babel_17]

128. Establishment .... or rather Outlaw Country?

'cuz nothing says Outlaw Country like having the federales hot on your tail? Yeehaw!

[LiberalLovinLug]

129. Brilliant is right

Beautiful and to the point.

And polling shows that Bernie is the most popular anti-establishment candidate of the two running.

If it were any of the establishment Republicans that win (but I doubt that now) Hillary would most likely win, (as well as Sanders). But the country has woken up and are looking for an outsider to win this time. Get on board or risk everything.

[mhatrw]

130. Worst Candidate Ever

[Kall]

131. That certainly seems to be the strategy.

It's coming from the same people who said that passing what was *literally* the Republican health care plan from the 1990s would beget Republican support. And that passing it would save the House for Democrats in 2010. And that once the public experienced the benefits of it, it would get so much public support that Republicans would never dream of trying to repeal it, because it would be political suicide. 60 repeal votes later...

[fbc]

132. I'm starting to realize Donald Trump is actually going to be president.

[onenote]

137. Too small a sample and too soon for such a judgment.

There certainly is no clear evidence that the anti-establishment vote is "far larger" than the I'm just fine with the establishment vote. Or even larger at all.

On the Democratic side of the ledger there have been a couple of closely contested caucuses (no proof that the anti-establishment vote is "far larger" than the establishment vote) and a blow out primary win for Bernie. In the coming days there will be additional blow out primary results, some for Bernie and some for Clinton -- again no clear evidence that the anti-establishment vote is "far larger," especially when you consider that these are primaries and thus only a slice (and not necessarily a representative slice in terms of interest and passion) of the electorate.

Over on the repub side, its much the same. Trump (along with Carson) represents the anti-establishment sentiment, but they only seem capable of attracting around 40 percent of the repub primary vote thus far. Some would say Cruz should be included in the anti-establishment calculus and it certainly is true that much of the establishment doesn't like him one bit. But Cruz has received endorsements for several dozen current and former repub elected officials and party officials, which distinguishes him from a true anti-establishment candidate like Trump or Bernie, neither of whom have garnered anywhere near that number of public endorsement from party figures.

So at this point, the "anti-establishment" vote is larger than we've seen it, but it's premature to say it is far larger, or even larger at all, than the vote for "establishment" candidates.

[Tarc]

139. "The anti-establishment vote is far larger than the "I'm just fine with the establishment" vote."

So that explains why Sanders has outperformed Clinton in all the primaries and caucuses so far as well as the ones upcoming.

Oh. Wait. He's not.

[Hiraeth]

140. Yep. The one thing Bernie and Trump have in common is anti-establishment.

[Go Vols]

141. .

http://origin.factcheck.org/Images/image/2008/Articles/January/2008.01.24PeasinPod/obamaradioadresponse.mp3

[Don Draper]

142. Well said!

Only Bernie can beat trump in the GE

[PatrickforO]

143. Yep. Bernie can win, if we can prevail against the Clinton campaign,

which is playing increasingly dirty.

Funny, I'm 57 now and can still remember heroes. I can still remember believing that right would always prevail in the end. Mom told me that, and from a very young age, I was filled with those kind of 'happy ending' stories.

Bernie is a hero. We need to get out there even stronger than before.

[dchill]

144. "Hillary has all the freight..."

and all the baggage.

[Betty Karlson]

148. Debbie showed in 2014 that the status quo can win, even without millennials!

/ sarcasm.

[merrily]

151. Disestablishers and antidisestablishers. The antidisestablishers have the money, media and power.

[Major Hogwash]

154. Have you yelled out the window lately?

"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

[iamthebandfanman]

155. Get back in line sheep!

You cant beat large pockets with ideology !

best you get in line behind the person who already knows they are the nominee , don't you know !??!
lol
then again, I do believe there are paid agitators on DU.. have been for a long while. people want us to fight each other.. divide and conquer and all that jazz

its unfortunate some people on DU have decided to take this stance :
[link:|

[urbuddha]

156. I vow NEVER to vote for Hillary ! It's Bernie ALL the Way, Even If I have to write him in.

Bernie or Bust !