2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe Good News for Bernie Sanders Supporters
Regardless of what transpires from here on out two important things have taken place.
First, Bernie Sanders has pulled Hillary Clinton further to the left than she otherwise would have been. This has meant that she has made commitments during this campaign that she will be held to if she should win the nomination, and then go on to win the Presidency. Fighting for liberalism does not end with casting a vote for a single candidate. The larger war must always be kept in the forefront of our minds.
Second, it has been proven that my generation, millennials, are far more liberal than our parents generation. There is a demographic revolution slowly unfolding in this nation. As older generations pass on we will grow progressively more influential and powerful. In time, the Democratic Party will be ours, and it will be a truly liberal party.
So, I say to my friends who support Sanders, to take heart. Regardless of how things play out in this campaign or the next campaign, the central battle being fought--to pull this country further and further to the left--is a war that we are winning.
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Chichiri
(4,667 posts). . . amen. 
gyroscope
(1,443 posts)if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
the only commitment she has is to her Wall Street donors.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)
Meldread
(4,213 posts)...Obama is no better or worse than Clinton. He made promises during his campaign that he had to be held accountable too as well--such as his promise to fight to repeal DADT.
It would be my hope that Bernie Sanders supporters would not simply give up if Hillary became President, but rather fight her tooth and nail as we did with Obama to get him to keep his promise on DADT. It involves fighting to hold her feet to the fire, and pushing her to do what we think is right.
Meanwhile, we need to focus on electing more liberal members to Congress, in addition to electing liberal local leaders and putting liberals in state legislatures and state governorships. This is where we will be grooming our future Presidential candidates, and strengthening our hold and political influence.
The bluntly honest truth is that the Presidency doesn't matter as much as most people think. It holds a lot of power, and we certainly want it, but most of the power wielded in government comes from the legislatures. This is where we are most deficient and weak at the moment. We need to hold onto the Presidency, even a weak progressive (I won't honor Hillary by calling her a liberal--a title that she doesn't even use) can be forced further to the left by having a more liberal legislature pulling them in that direction.
Robbins
(5,066 posts)look no further than bill clinton comparing us to tea party which party aggres with.
If clinton were to win she would be much farther to the right than obama was.
with clinton as nominee gop keeps senate and dems are going to get killed in 2018 midterm assuring gop control of house till at least 2032.gop will control redistricting after 2020.
Clinton will be much quicker than obama to go to war overseas.of course it's moot point.trump win in november.
Marr
(20,317 posts)If Hillary gets the nomination and loses the election, it's no big deal to them. Same old kabuki theater with the same old actors and the same old phony lines of scrimmage.
amborin
(16,631 posts)
antigop
(12,778 posts)scscholar
(2,902 posts)then yes.
yuiyoshida
(41,867 posts)is pretty much on target...
JudyM
(29,294 posts)
She gets the nomination ol' Henry's gonna break out the good scotch.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)everyone she ends up making opposite promises depending on audience, ends up with a long record entirely at odds with her newfound PCness
2banon
(7,321 posts)
jfern
(5,204 posts)She already has a 67% not favorable and trustworthy rating. There's not even really room for that to go up.
kcjohn1
(751 posts)But I hate hate hate hate hearing "he pulled her to the left". That is BS. Almost all politicians, especially Hillary, are flat our liars and will say anything to get elected. Her message will sound differently in the general, and even more different in governance. Look at Obama who IMO is more liberal than Clinton, has governed for the most part from the center despite his very liberal campaigns (both).
I don't know if subscribe to your idea of guarantee of more liberal democratic party. Maybe socially. But on economics, it will always be ruled by big business. In fact a Bernie loss would probably set back liberal wing of the democratic party because 1) its 4-8 year Clinton rule and/or worse 4-8 year rule of Trump/Cruz.
Meldread
(4,213 posts)This is the mistake I think a lot of people make. It has nothing to do with trust. It has to do with getting her to make the commitments, and then it is our job to hold her accountable. If we fail to hold her accountable, and she decides to want to dash to the right--who is to blame? Hillary for seizing what she must perceive as a political opportunity, or us for failing to do our democratic duty and fight for our values? I say the fault is with us for failing to stand up for our values.
My community fought for over 40 years for marriage equality. We lost again and again and again and again. Victory was never in sight. At one point, most states had anti-marriage equality constitutional amendments. We kept fighting anyway. Eventually, public opinion began to turn in our favor. We even began to win in the legislatures. We began to flip some states in our favor. Soon, we had a patchwork quilt of marriage laws that varied state by state. We used the Courts to weaken DOMA, which blew the hole open, and then we used the Courts again to kill off all opposition to marriage equality. Countless people that we will never know sacrificed and fought to make this a reality. They fought against odds far greater than any agenda Bernie Sanders has put forward.
You cannot stand before me and tell me that the left can't win. I know the left can win. We just have to be prepared to fight, and part of that means holding our own wayward people--like Hillary--accountable. It has nothing to do with trust. It has to do with the willingness to fight for what we want.
kcjohn1
(751 posts)As soon as she wins, she automatically has your vote for the next 8 years. With how crazy Republicans are, you will be told every 4 years, do you want Cruz instead of Clinton, and you will vote for her.
In terms of Gay rights, you are correct. This as most things are totally about the movement instead of politicians who are cowards (very few are brave) and never do the right thing. I praise people like who fought the good fight, and eventually got the politicians to come along for the ride. They only changed when the public views were more favorable to the gay movement, but if you notice there was no big money against gay rights. In fact, things movement quickly towards the end because the money was on the side of gay rights. Obama pivot on gay rights at the end had more to do with campaign contributors than sense of doing what is right.
Meldread
(4,213 posts)First, we have her words and statements. If she decides to pivot to the right, we begin to publicly confront her. Every time she goes out to speak, we make sure that we are there, and we disrupt her events.
Second, we put pressure on Democrats in Congress. We let them know our agenda. We demand that they push it through, and use them to screw with Hillary's agenda. If Democrats in Congress fail to play ball, we primary them and boot them out. We should focus most of our attention on Democrats in strong solid blue areas, where there is no need to really be concerned about Republicans. There is no reason a Democrat from a strong Democratic district or state should in any way be unsupportive to our demands, and these are the places that we are strongest.
Third, we build public momentum. We build a strong coalition of liberals who are willing to stand behind the agenda and fight to see it made a reality.
The third and second should always be happening, so that the scale is constantly tipping in our direction. The first is only necessary if Hillary--or any other Democrat--starts to tilt rightward or goes back on their promises.
You are right, we cannot force Hillary out of the White House. We are tethered to her. However, there are going to be things that Hillary wants that we can deny her until we get what we want in return. We can make her Presidency something smooth or we can make it incredibly difficult. That will be her choice.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)to "make" or "convince" her to do what she does not want to do. Once she is President, if you think we common folk have any leverage at all, I too have a bridge I need to unload.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)I don't want to keep piling on. I love the fact that millennials are more liberal that their parents. I t fits with the historical pattern. But HRC, as with most politicians, LIES constantly. Once she gains office, money will speak much louder than any "commitments".
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)She's a corporatist who talks populist as long as she thinks it will be to her advantage.
Second, no. Regardless how much you would like us all to just hurry up and die the fuck off, we're going to be around for awhile longer and we're not all Hillary supporters.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)
Bernie right now "We have the momentum"
dana_b
(11,546 posts)I just don't trust her - at all. She has a terrible history of lying.
But I am so glad that your generation is more left than mine has become (Gen X). Keep it up!!
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)who engaged the system in the 60s and 70s.
United we stand, divided we fall.
If the millenials can embrace that we can bring Bernie's ideas to the fore whether or not he wins.
2banon
(7,321 posts)let's make hay before it reigns.
Robbins
(5,066 posts)he hasn't pulled her anywhere.she is lying.once primarys are over she pulls back to the right.
Progressives have been defeated.there is no place for liberals in democratic party.2016 has proven this.
there is nothing good for us bernie supporters.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)
Robbins
(5,066 posts)blacks still went heavily for clinton In Nevada.and the caucus are fixed against bernie.
it's over for democracy and progressives.we lost and corporists and facists won.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)I'm in this thing until the end. I will be caucusing for Sanders next month.
Robbins
(5,066 posts)it's clear as day bernie can't win any caucus state.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)eom
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)I will fight that thought till the end. God, we are just 2 primaries in. The primaries is where the real public gets to weigh in. Did you forget NH? Take a pill, go to bed, and you'll feel better in the morning.
Robbins
(5,066 posts)we have proof now bernie will lose every caucus.the establishment has the caucus fixed.
all the mSM will be spining is clinton's firewall held in Nevada and she had great victory.she will win SC by at least 10%.
Caucus states and southern states make it impossible for bernie to win.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)Sorry.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)that they are resistant to change. They're happy to continue to further ensconce the oligarchy.
And after seeing this for over 30 years, I think the US will continue to head into the dumpster, no matter which party wins this time
Meldread
(4,213 posts)As I said to another poster, my community fought for over 40 years for marriage equality. We fought a battle that was, by virtually all accounts, an unwinnable war. The odds were always stacked against us. We spent decades suffering defeat after crushing defeat. We endured tremendous blow politically from all sides. At one point, most states had anti-marriage equality amendments placed in their constitution. Yet, we continued to press on and fight, and eventually we turned the tide. One by one we began flipping some states in our favor, and created a patchwork quilt of marriage laws across the country. We used the judicial system to weaken DOMA. We fought to hold candidates accountable. We fought to shift public opinion in our favor. Thousands upon thousands of people fought--with no assurance of victory--to make marriage equality a reality. They fought against odds far greater than any liberal agenda that we see on the table today, many of which already enjoy popular support from the public.
Had we manifested such defeatism, we would have given up our fight decades ago. This is something that I don't think straight liberals really understand. It may be more apparent to me as a gay man. I don't expect people to agree with me. I don't go into a situation trusting the other side. In fact, I automatically assume that they will betray me at the first political opportunity, because I've watched it happen. I even watched as Obama, a candidate that I supported in 2008, flirted occasionally with the religious right when he thought he could "unite" this country. Where does Obama stand now? How do you think he got there?
No victory comes without fighting for it. A candidate is merely a tool. They are not being put into place to do anything but what we want them to do, and when they deviate from that desire, we do what is necessary to remind them of their obligations and commitments. We inflict political pain if necessary. Bernie Sanders alone was and is nothing but a single man. To get even the tiniest portion of what he was pledging accomplished he needed a Democratic House and Senate. Likely, he needed a filibuster proof majority in the Senate as well, or have Democratic allies in the Senate willing to get rid of it entirely. Likely, he also needed to replace some of the more conservative Democrats with more liberal Democrats. The point of having Bernie Sanders in the White House would be primarily as a useful veto pen and negotiator for a more liberal agenda.
It's true that Hillary will be further to the right than Sanders, and this will mean that we do not have someone as strongly committed on our side. However, it was and is always up to the liberal base of this party to hold ALL elected officials accountable, and to fight to ensure that our agenda items are pushed through. If Democrats fail in this regard or they seem to squishy, then they can be replaced with Democrats who are more amenable to our agenda.
However, simply sitting on the sidewalk and pouting about a single loss? Really? My community would have killed for these odds. The wind is practically at our back and our sails are fully open. If only people stopped to realize that we needed people to man the rigging and steer the ship we would be fine--it is practically smooth sailing for us politically speaking. We couldn't have asked for a better hand moving forward. Bernie Sanders, as an individual, is not that relevant to the overall agenda. The war is much bigger than him.
My hope is that if Bernie Sanders loses this race, he shifts his focus toward getting more liberal Democrats elected to Congress. He should activate his supporters to participate in the Democratic Primaries for the Senate and House, elect the most liberal candidates most likely to win, and help raise money for them for their general elections.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)But having seen this merry go round too many times, I am tired of seeing the resistance to change clamp down yet again.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)when the awful truth has become evident to me. I still think Bernie will win the ball of wax, but if he doesn't then, if fear we are done.
artislife
(9,497 posts)I don't trust her to do anything that she has said in the last 4 weeks. That talk was not who she really is.
She doesn't care enough about the health of this planet, the food, the income equality and racial equality. She cares a little. Not enough to actually help, though in my opinion. Just enough for some to pin their hopes to.
I can't pin my hope on her.
840high
(17,196 posts)Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)That's all she's doing is saying what is popular at them moment in order to become POTUS. She DOES NOT CARE about the truth. She's only truthful when it's convenient.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)She is no more left than she was a year ago.
I do agree that there is a movement happening and regardless if Sanders wins or not, it will continue and the Dem Party better take heed or there will have to be a third party to take its place on the left. The people of this country absolutely cannot survive more of the same. Things HAVE to change.
This is why I cannot understand how people who follow politics can vote for Hillary. For crying out loud, don't they want their kids and the youth of America to have a fair shake in this world? We KNOW that won't happen under Hillary. We KNOW it. There will be no breaking up or regulating Wall Street, there will be no single-payer health care. Things are just going to get worse because there WILL be the TPP, fracking, corporate control over our govt. etc.. etc... etc...
But don't give up Meldread! Your time is coming. Politics goes in cycles and we are due for a progressive one very soon.
.
but movement is over.we lost and corporists won.the revolution was put down.
Bernie can't win because caucus are fixed against him.mark my words he will lose every caucus.that's be proven now.
progressives have lost as has democracy.
aikoaiko
(34,185 posts)She'll evolve. There is no good news in a HRC nomination. She has already positioned herself as the pragmatic one who will change her stance to get a vote.
FailureToCommunicate
(14,027 posts)
H2O Man
(73,645 posts)Not even close.
Keep on fighting the Good Fight!
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)We've even changed the dialog, like Occupy did. New progressive faces are showing up.
Also, I heard a report that Bernie was getting more Independent changing over to Dem, in Nevada. So we may not have to wait.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)She has proven that she will say or do anything to get to the WH. What assurances do I have that it'll mean anything once she's there? I heard someone on the radio say "She's definitely become a better campaigner and debater because of Sanders". Well, great. So she's a smooth talker that can change her tune at the drop of a hat...that makes me feel assured.
As a fellow millennial, it's crap. She won't be held to anything because she doesn't stand for anything except herself. She also has next to no chance in the GE. All evidence points to that. The Republicans will NOT allow her to win and it will be overwhelming. The Sanders folks will be blamed for it, too. As if her campaigns attitude towards left leaning ideals had nothing to do with it.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
warrprayer
(4,734 posts)I see her digging her heels in deeper, if anything.
2banon
(7,321 posts)once the contest is over for most every pol that runs for that office. And Hillary has a long record of doing exactly that.
stopbush
(24,397 posts)I was the same way when I was in college. My parents voted for JFK, but by the time I went to college they were moving to Republican.
Those of us who are now past 50 but who are still ardent Democrats are generally more conservative in our views than we were in our youth. Doesn't mean we're less progressive. Just means we don't allow ourselves to get suckered by snake oil salesmen anymore. We demand proof, not slogans.
It's just the way it's always been. I'm sure the millennials feel their situation is unique, but really, it isn't.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)She will be held to her commitments? Only her commitments to her big money backers. Anything done will be nothing but smoke and mirrors.
The will be NO Democratic Party left. The corruption will be too entrenched at the federal, state, and local levels.
