The Pragmatic Case for Bernie Sanders

[Uncle Joe]

(snip)

On the pragmatics of electability, nearly every major national poll consistently shows Sanders equaling or bettering Clinton against all Republicans. Polls show Sanders nearly tied with Clinton nationally and rising. On electability, if anything, Sanders has the edge right now. There is nothing empirical to suggest Clinton’s superior electability—quite the contrary given her loss to Barack Obama in 2008 and her flagging campaign this year. While Clinton might gain more moderate Independents (particularly against a polarizing Republican nominee), Sanders can inspire massive Democratic and liberal Independent turnout and likely win over many white working-class swing voters.

(snip)

The Clinton pragmatism frame is a strangely naïve and fatalistic misjudging of political culture and dynamics. During most of his eight years in office, President Obama has tacked to the center in hopes of bipartisan compromise on everything from gun control to the budget, only to be met by relentless Republican obstruction, even labeled a “socialist dictator.” Republicans did much the same during Bill Clinton’s first term—pushing him more deeply into the political center, where, with plenty of support from Hillary, Preisdent Clinton and the Gingrich Congress gutted welfare, enacted a deeply compromised crime bill, and reversed bank regulations (something Hillary is OK with even after the financial crisis).

(snip)

Change is not, as Clinton has claimed, a matter of “magical” thinking or waving a “wand”—it is about pushing ideas, building movements, and challenging the status quo. Even before the general election, Clinton is campaigning on a deflating and defeatist politics of half-a-loaf “pragmatism,” aiming lower on minimum wage, opposing free college, opposing single-payer health care. With Sanders, there is no question he will push for meaningful progressive change. No candidate can guarantee passage of their platform—but at least Sanders makes change possible.

On the question of leadership, Clinton’s other central campaign theme is her record of experience. As first lady, Clinton failed at health-care reform. She never pushed for single-payer health care and never built a coalition for anything beyond a compromised managed-care system. She also supported three of Bill Clinton’s signature measures, which all proved disastrous: welfare rollback, which unraveled safety-net supports for poor families, low-income women, and millions of working-class Americans; the omnibus crime bill with its three strikes and mandatory minimum sentencing, which contributed to a generation of long-term, largely African American inmates and felons; and NAFTA, which helped impoverish millions of Mexican and Central America farmers, leading to mass migration and social and economic upheaval.

In one undistinguished term as U.S. senator, Clinton opposed gay marriage, voted for the Iraq war, and supported the Patriot Act, among other positions. As secretary of state, while logging impressive global mileage, Clinton pushed for aggressive regime change in Libya, and she worked hard to expand corporate military contracts and fracking abroad. Whether the American public finds her record favorable or not, it is not one of progressive, forward-looking leadership.

Sanders has consistently demonstrated leadership, speaking out, introducing legislation, and laying the political groundwork on a wide array of issues, including: gay rights (long before they gained mainstream support), workers’ rights and union rights, universal single-payer health care, family and medical leave protections, and expansions of Social Security. On nearly every major issue—labor and economic justice, to the Iraq War and the Patriot Act, welfare reform, NAFTA, the Keystone XL pipeline, and the Transpacific Partnership—Sanders has taken clear consistent stands, while Clinton has waffled, backtracked, and leaned to the center.

(snip)

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/the-pragmatic-case-for-bernie-sanders/462720/

This is a good read.

[RBInMaine]

1. Polls right now don't mean shit. He hasn't been attacked yet day and night as a COMMUNIST.

[Uncle Joe]

2. Some have tried including Trump but it doesn't carry water. n/t

[Betty Karlson]

8. I don't know if you received the memo, but the Cold War is over.

In fact, the entire 20th century has come to an end, and the generation susceptible to red0baiting are dying off. Younger voters, especially millennials, know the difference between communism and democratic socialism, and a substantial number of them prefer the latter to the status quo - which they collectively hate.

Let us know when you have updated your arguments for the 21st century.

[Fawke Em]

15. Well, he has here: by you.

[pangaia]

26. Ah, always the optimist.

I have complete trust in Sanders to know exactly what he is doing...

On Edit and after further contemplation:

Those who would fall for the COMMUNIST garbage, are too stupid to vote for him anyway.

[Jarqui]

3. "While Clinton might gain more moderate Independents"

I don't think that's happening. Independents typically don't like her and Republicans hate her.

That's where she loses the electability argument in the head-to-head with GOP polls compared with Sanders (generally - not without exception). Hillary is more popular within the Democratic party - in part because she's so much better known and people have assumed or been told by the media that she's more electable.

As people find out about Sanders and find out that she isn't more electable, her support falls away and goes to Sanders. It's happened in every state and it's happening nationally.

[Uncle Joe]

4. I agree.

[Cosmocat]

13. Independents don't like her BECAUSE republicans hate her

The mushy middle does not pay attention, they just hear all the vitriol against democrats when republicans do their hissy fits.

Hillary has been defamed by republicans for three decades, with the neat little turn where they scream bloody murder about her while saying it is because she is "SO DEVICIVE!"

Same thing they have done to BHO, an extremely likeable guy who democrats complain about being too weak against Republicans. But, somehow, them acting like jackasses to him is because he "just won't work with them."

Point here is, while the reality is that Hill is now damaged beyond repair, Bernie has not faced that dynamic like she and BHO.

YET.

If things continue trending the way they are, he soon will.

It was late february that BHO was in his position, having Hillary take all the arrows, and then when he became the presumptive nominee, there was Operation Chaos, Bill Ayers, the reverand wright, flag pins ...

Bernie has had an easy ride to this point, the scrappy under dog.

He is on the verge of seeing how Hillary has lived for the last three decades, how BHO has lived for the last 8 years ...

Side note - I think Bernie is great, and he will do it his way, going back after them in his tough, focused way. This is something that we have not seen from a democrat is a LONG, LONG time.

But, he IS going to lose "popularity" once the right wing starts grinding on him, and they will keep shifting from one meme to another relentlessly looking for that thing that will take him down.

BHO managed to duck that.

Will he?

[Uncle Joe]

16. Most of Hillary's wounds have been self-inflicted, just as Bill did in the White House giving

the Republicans plenty of ammunition.

[Cosmocat]

19. don't agree with that

This is a republican meme, its their fault they are assholes, same thing they say about BHO, and something that democrats being the spineless jelly fish they are go along with.

IF only BHO was tougher, they would not mess with him as much, while they blame him for not working with them.

Again, this will look REALLY to Bernistas when they turn his focus to him ...

[Uncle Joe]

21. The Republicans were going after Bill for "bimbo eruptions" from day 1 of his Presidency, and

what does he do but validate all the accusations they had been throwing at him in 1998 when he never had to run for another election.

The trust issues that have been thrown against Hillary haven't grown in a vacuum, she fertilized, watered and pruned that plant repeatedly over the past twenty+ years.

I have no doubts that the Republicans will attack Bernie, they've been doing that but his record and message to a major degree neutralizes their attacks.

Don't underestimate Bernie in a general election match up.

[Cosmocat]

25. Yes, its her fault republicans are jackasses

"she fertilized, watered and pruned that plant repeatedly over the past twenty+ years."

Sure, by breathing air.

Al Gore was a good and highly capable man. He was destroyed while the hapless, dimwitted son of privilege was elected because he was a guy you would like to have a beer with.

John Kerry was a good and capable man who served in battled, was wounded and received honors for his service. And, was portrayed as a weak america hating coward while the dimwitted son of privilege who ducked actual services and saw 9-11 occur on his watch was made out to be a MAN OF COURAGE AND CONVICTION who kept us safe.

Howard Dean was a good and highly capable man whose career was ended because of a genuine moment of joyful emotion.

Hillary isn't perfect.

And, as good as he is, neither is Bernie.

And, frankly, even if she or he would be, they would tear them down.

He would look no different today had he been the focus the scrutiny and slander she has been subjected to for as long as she has been subjected to it.

It isn't underestimating Bernie. And, I am anxious to see how his matter of fact, straight forward approach works in the general.

But, his "record and message" will take a back seat to the bullshit once the rs and media coalesce around their positive frame for their guy and their negative frames for him.

[Uncle Joe]

29. Al Gore was destroyed BECAUSE he was the foremost political leader in championing the Internet,

The corporate media conglomerates saw the writing on the wall, their immense influence power and advertising wealth would erode over time as a result of the Internet growing in power and influence, giving the American People virtually limitless information around the corporate media's filter while also allowing the public to have instantaneous, mass open debate for all the world to see.

The Internet magnified the First Amendment to the umptheenth power at the handful of corporate media conglomerates which control 90+% of everything the American People see on television, hear on the radio or read in printed publications' expense.

However in 2000 and 2004, the Internet was too weak to counter the slanders against Gore, Kerry and Dean of course Bill and Hillarys actions didn't help Gore either.

As the Internet matured growing in power and influence it greatly facilitated our nation's first African American to the Presidency, it's now in the process of the doing the same for Bernie Sanders.

Those people that are 18-29 cut their teeth on the Internet, that's why Hillarys strongest block of supporters are people over 65 of which a larger portion of still get their primary information from television, radio and printed publications and not having the advantage of mass debate or exposure to a broader range of ideas.

Gore was Prometheus, the Internet was fire, now the oligarchs and Wall Street will feel the Bern.

[Jarqui]

18. One can never know for sure.

But I think like Obama, he has much less baggage than Hillary.

Hillary has a career of scandals, 22 or so documented flip-flops and all kinds of video documented lies.

The only "scandal" with Bernie is his socialism going for a revolution label , few flip-flops (most of his policies go back 50+ years) and no or very few lies. Even his ex-wife likes him.

Obama had one major flaw: that he was black. Don't get excited, I love the guy. There are a lot of racists running around who have a right to vote. And very few if any voted for Obama. So 15-20% (rough assessment of prejudice in studies at the time) of the voters were unavailable to him.

Then they started with the Kenyan Muslim crap, Rev Wright, flag pins etc to whittle him down.

When they were done: Obama 52.9% McCain 45.7%

Take away the racists and he might have won 66% of the vote (which is how the campaign felt to many).

Bernie has a somewhat similar problem. The GOP will paint his socialism revolution like he's an evil commie who liked Castro and Russia, etc. That might not be as easy to see as the color of a man's skin but they'll play to that ignorance and promote hatred of "the commie who would dare to be president to overthrow us with a revolution, take everything we own and make us all slaves" (something nuts like that)

I don't think it will resonate as much so I'd guess it will cost him 10-15% of the voters.

Clinton, to me, although vetted some, has a much bigger problem. They've got a lot of scandals, lies and flip-flops on her. They're going to play the email/Clinton Foundation card on her - that she & Bill cashed in as Secretary of State. To me, that will finish her off because with all her baggage before that, she's already lost 30-40% of the electorate who really don't like, don't trust or hate her. (60% of Americans do not trust in more than one poll), that Clinton Foundation thing will substantially hurt her numbers.

Yes, a bunch of Hillary has been vetted. But not the Clinton Foundation. Not the email issue. And none of the later scandals as or after Bill left office. Hillary to me is the candidate who is by far more damaged going into the general election.

The one thing she and Bernie have going for them is the GOP are going to nominate a flawed asshole.

[Cosmocat]

20. Again

the difference is the time frame - for three decades republicans have slandered Hillary relentlessly.

The "scandals" have been 99% bullshit, because that is what republicans do.

BHO until this point in 08 and Bernie now simply have not faced that level of scrutiny and focused slander.

I like Bernie a lot, and he is great.

But, if he had faced 3 decades of the kind of republican focus Hillary has faced, he would look no better than she does right now.

Assuming things are breaking the way they appear to be breaking, check back in a couple months when Bernie has had to deal with his republican generated "scandals."

The DEAN SCREAM!, hating america because he does not wear a flag pin, chewing gum ...

[Jarqui]

24. "he would look no better than she does right now"

I disagree. Three things about Bernie:
1. He doesn't lie
2. He doesn't flip-flop (similar positions for 50+ years)
3. He doesn't get mixed up with money and scandals related to that

Look at that list and ask yourself about the things that have damaged Hillary over the years. She's flip-flopped, lied her head off and been mixed up in numerous money scandals (and she's in the middle of one now with the Clinton Foundation)

Bernie is more like Obama. There was not a lot of garbage like the above to stick on Obama and seemingly Bernie. I'm sure they'll dig up something like Rezco or Rev Wright. But nothing like what they've already got on Hillary and we know she's got some nasty things ahead with this email problem and the Clinton Foundation.

[Cosmocat]

28. The same could be said

about Howard Dean, those three things ...

And, BHO would look the same had he been in their sites for 30 years, too, which was my point.

Heck, his favorability now it lower than Bills was at the same time.

I don't know how this is so hard to understand.

They have three decades of digging crap up against her.

LOOK - I like Bernie a lot, and do agree that he has has some similarities with BHO.

I flipped from Hill to BHO before the primaries started because I thought they might be a bit less vitriolic toward him.

I will never again underestimate how vile and nasty republicans will be toward a democrat, and the extent toward the media at best enables it.

I flipped form Hill to Bernie soon after he announced, but people are just not being honest about this in piling on Hillary and not dealing in reality (a tune that IS going to change) in thinking he is pretty much bullet proof.

He hasn't faced the full effect ...

Not even remotely.

[Jarqui]

30. I agree that some folks hated her from the White House days

so she took some arrows back then and ever since.

But she wasn't a candidate for much of her life - just as a senator in a very Democratic state.

Bernie's been running for office since high school for class president and 1972 in Vermont. That's a heck of lot of scrutiny - particularly after he became Mayor of Burlington in the early 80s. After all this time in congress (since '91), he is the highest rated senator (83%). And he sometimes had both parties after him - not just the GOP.

I've been reviewing his life. He's the most rock solid, honest, decent, steady politician I've ever seen. You can lift his speeches to congress from 1991 and they'd still play very well today and are similar to what he's pushing for today.

They'll go at at the commie stuff and I'm sure they'll find some dirt or spin crap. Hillary won't wait until November if she can nail him. Nobody is perfect. But this guy is pretty darn clean.

[Cosmocat]

33. She has been running for POTUS since the day Bill sat behind

the desk at 1600 PA, and since 1992 republicans have treated her as the defacto democratic nominee non-stop except during the actual campaigns in 99 and 03 and during BHOs first term ...

Other than those periods she has been public enemy number one for republicans for three straight decades.

I lived through the 90s and was fed the fuck up of republicans trashing her well before the 2000s hit.

Look, I agree Bernie is about as close to the real deal as you can get.

But republicans have treated him for what he was, a token liberal in a small northeastern state that is ok with liberals. .

Because of his age and his fruffy, unkept nature they have never viewed him as any kind of threat.

I like him because he is as right on the issues as you can get.

I like him even more because unlike 99% of other democrats he has two full functioning balls.

He stakes his liberal flag and does not back down.

I do agree that gives him a shot to weather the coming storm.

But, he simply has not seen the full on, frothing at the mouth, crazed, believe they are righteous in their godly battle, shit storm of of republican jack assery that is enabled at the very least and most often gleefully parroted by the main stream media Hillary has faced for a quarter century.

Some of what Hillary is now is in her (and Bills nature) but she also has been weathered by these battles and worn down by them.

I just wish people would show her a little more respect, she's carried the flag and gotten her ass beat down for a long damn time.

[Jarqui]

34. "I just wish people would show her a little more respect"

The flip-flops and lying ... that's hard to respect.

Some of the hit jobs/attempts on Obama '08 ... hard to respect . and now she's hired a dishonest ex-GOP media hit man to do the same crap to Sanders ... that's hard to respect.

This email thing - they've found evidence .... stupid setup ... that's hard to respect

The Clinton Foundation money mixed with people she was helping at the State Department ... that's stupid and hard to respect

Let's name all the Obama Admin scandals ... Hillary's plus ??? not a lot there
Let's name all the Clinton scandals ... too many .. where to start?

When she claims to be the agent of change and you ask people "what significant legislative achievement to she lead and make? Crickets

I've tried to forgive and wipe the slate clean with her a number of times. I'd started out behind her in '08. She's lost me each time because of crap like the above.

I'm done. Can't do it any more. I'll hold my nose and support her to stymie the GOP but truly respecting her a fraction as much as Obama or Bernie? I just can't

[peacebird]

27. There is ample videotape evidence of Hillary lying, saying derogatory things about POC, etc

Every attack by the Rs can feature Hillary shooting herself in the foot on video.

[Jarqui]

5. "No candidate can guarantee passage of their platform"

That's true. They're in a much more similar boat than Hillary claims.

"—but at least Sanders makes change possible"

only if he persuades enough people to overturn congress. But at least he's trying. Hillary's given up and quite frankly with her ceiling - the number of folks who don't like her or trust her - she could never win a big mandate to make big changes. Incremental changes is her best hope.

[A Little Weird]

6. Good article

I think the author is spot on.

"Clinton’s brand of pragmatism surrenders progressive change to centrism even before negotiations begin."

[Betty Karlson]

7. Very good read.

Soon all Clinton's arguments will be reduced to: "But what about me? ME-ME-ME!"

[Cosmocat]

9. A couple thoughts

The rabid victimization mentality of Bernie supporters aside, the fact is that these national poll numbers are not reflective of the three decade long slander attacks on HRC vs Bernie being not facing that kind of quarter century attacks.

As much as Bernistas want to hate her, to this point in this election, her presence has shielded him from bring the center circle of the bullseye of republican slander/national media enabling of that slander.

At this point in the BHOs first run, he benefited from the same thing. All republican arrows were being shot into HRC.

It wasn't until the end of February that it was clear that BHO was the presumptive nominee that all of a sudden there was Operation Chaos, and republicans took aim at BHO, from that point on it was Flag pins, the reverand wright, Bill Ayers.

All the balling around here over garden variety primary elbows to the ribs (and nothing even approaching the kind of $hit republicans are doing to one another in their primary), people have seen NOTHING, not even a fraction of the bullshit he will get if continues to build and surpass HRC as the presumptive nonimee.

That said ...

Given 3 decades of republicans piling on her and the national media enabling it, HRC has been damaged so badly in this primary that she now is what bernistas have wanted, nearly unelectable in the general, because they have effectively burned her bridges to the left flanks of the party.

Somehow, to the extreme right, HRC is the very embodiment of the evils of liberal america, while at the same time to the extreme left she is seen as the same as the hard right candidates.

I know this will be lost on Bernistas, but you might want to NOT continue to pile on Hillary supporters like you do here.

It is all fun and games now, when he is trending up in the primary, but once he becomes the target of the republicans, his "likability" will take a hit. I know you don't get it, but he WILL be defamed, he WILL face the full onslaught of republican anger and derision, and it is purposeful, because even if it is not true, it effects the overall mood of the country toward that person. Again, what the evil Hillary is doing now is literally nothing compared to what the republicans will do, with the national media gleefully channeling it.

And, once they start to target him with their unified talking points, and the national media enables it, he will need the full support of the democratic coalition.

[Uncle Joe]

11. These are just the facts and no matter who is nominated, they will be attacked,

it's better to have this debate now than waiting until after the nomination.

I don't pile on Hillary supporters here, I try my best to maintain a civil dialogue.

Peace to you, Cosmocat.

[Cosmocat]

14. Your OP was fine

I was just adding to it, not taking exception to it.

Thank you for your reasoned discussion.

[Jarqui]

23. "HRC has been damaged so badly in this primary"

Her campaign had taken on a lot of water before she announced:

That graph is to Sept '15. She's bounced back a little after the Bengahzi testimony to 45% in December

But you can see that she rehabilitated herself since 2008 but after being Secretary of State, the GOP-manufactured Benghazi scandal, deleting emails & her record as SoS, had already knocked her down to 48% in April '15 as she announced her candidacy.

So factually nor quantitatively, you cannot blame most of the damage to her favorability on the campaign against Bernie. She lost 18 pts in favorability before she announced and 3 pts since her campaign started. It's got little to do with Bernie outside of the Dem party. Within the Dem party, Bernie continues to gain popularity and that makes hers wane some.

No question that the Republicans saw her as a prime candidate for the presidency and set about to destroy her with Benghazi, the emails & Clinton Cash. And from the above chart, they were very successful. The thing is, there is more to come on these emails and there is much more to come on the Clinton Foundation in terms of damaging her.

We haven't seen anything yet like we're going to on that from the GOP. They haven't even got through the 33,000 emails she didn't delete and they have 30,000 deleted emails that were recovered to look at. They have found 1600 classified and a bunch secret, top secret or more and have declarations from the CIA that some of these emails were classified before they were sent. That's going to be ongoing trouble for her campaign.

Whether she's innocent or not (I suspect/hope they are innocent), the GOP will float the case that she and Bill used her position as Secretary of State to acquire money for themselves and the Clinton Foundation. That's worse than Reverend Wright because they have incredibly coincidental evidence to make it stick in the court of public opinion. And I suspect the GOP are sitting on it so that she can't clear her name before the election.

Hillary may claim that she has been vetted and she's right. She has been. But what she isn't telling you, in my opinion, is that there is a lot more serious vetting to come between now and the election.

[Mbrow]

10. thanks for the OP. Uncle Joe

Concise and easy to prove. Just look at the current records of both.

[Uncle Joe]

12. Thank you, Mbrow.

Peace to you.

[Jarqui]

17. I think he nails this part:

On the question of leadership, Clinton’s other central campaign theme is her record of experience. As first lady, Clinton failed at health-care reform. She never pushed for single-payer health care and never built a coalition for anything beyond a compromised managed-care system. She also supported three of Bill Clinton’s signature measures, which all proved disastrous: welfare rollback, which unraveled safety-net supports for poor families, low-income women, and millions of working-class Americans; the omnibus crime bill with its three strikes and mandatory minimum sentencing, which contributed to a generation of long-term, largely African American inmates and felons; and NAFTA, which helped impoverish millions of Mexican and Central America farmers, leading to mass migration and social and economic upheaval.

In one undistinguished term as U.S. senator, Clinton opposed gay marriage, voted for the Iraq war, and supported the Patriot Act, among other positions. As secretary of state, while logging impressive global mileage, Clinton pushed for aggressive regime change in Libya, and she worked hard to expand corporate military contracts and fracking abroad. Whether the American public finds her record favorable or not, it is not one of progressive, forward-looking leadership.

Sanders has consistently demonstrated leadership, speaking out, introducing legislation, and laying the political groundwork on a wide array of issues, including: gay rights (long before they gained mainstream support), workers’ rights and union rights, universal single-payer health care, family and medical leave protections, and expansions of Social Security. On nearly every major issue—labor and economic justice, to the Iraq War and the Patriot Act, welfare reform, NAFTA, the Keystone XL pipeline, and the Transpacific Partnership—Sanders has taken clear consistent stands, while Clinton has waffled, backtracked, and leaned to the center.

I'd add on "her record of experience" that so far, in threads when asked, nobody can name significant legislative accomplishments of substance by her yet she touts herself as someone who can bring about change ... when she never really has.

[Uncle Joe]

22. I agree, Jarqui.

[Dems to Win]

31. 20 million dollars in speaking fees since she left State Dept

This is not a scandal made up by the Republicans. She cashed in, big time, on her public service, and now wants our votes. Not even mentioning the ways Bill has cashed in.

No, Bernie doesn't have an equivalent scandal for Repubs to exploit. He's not motivated by money, and never has been.

Bernie is BY FAR the best candidate for Democrats in the fall. We have some hope of winning with Bernie. IMHO, there is no hope of winning with Hillary.

[Uncle Joe]

32. I agree.

And whether you're an honest man, or whether you're a thief, depends on whose solicitor has given me my brief.

Benjamin Franklin


Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/benjaminfr118457.html#jPt8IpxWy3AFeYXk.99

Peace to you, Dems to Win.

[Dems to Win]

35. Peace and Joy to you, Uncle Joe