DKOS: How Bernie Sanders lost me ... and Hillary Clinton won me over

[wyldwolf]

I’m not a natural Hillary Clinton supporter... When she looked like the only meaningful Democratic candidate in the 2016 presidential election, I was fine with that, committed to a Democratic win but also committed to the work of pushing from her left whenever and wherever possible. When Bernie Sanders got into the race, I was pleased to be able to support a candidate on Clinton’s left. I gave him a little money and assumed I’d give him more.

Then he lost me. Not all at once, but, by now, thoroughly. And along the way, Clinton impressed me more than she ever had.

Economic inequality is at the top of the list of issues I care about. I basically spend my life trying to work it into discussions of every other issue, because I usually think it belongs there. I had a lot of training on that front: When I once described having fled a shoe store after two salespeople began arguing, in front of me, over which of them had approached me first and should get my business, my father said “that’s what decades of stagnating wages will get you.” So a presidential candidate who wanted to talk seriously about inequality? Great!

Except … somehow Sanders has lost me on even that. I simultaneously want a more serious and nuanced class analysis—something deeper than the talking points, more flexibly targeted to specific questions rather than broad strokes—and more willingness to depart from the talking points, to acknowledge that sometimes you really can’t turn a question to your subject of choice. When the time is right to talk about inequality, try to fit the statistics to the moment. When the time is wrong, at least pretend to notice. Clearly Sanders’ talking points are working for lots of people, and I don’t doubt his commitment on these issues, but the repetition has failed to give me anything new or interesting to hang onto. And beyond inequality, the repetition is a problem with how he talks about—or avoids talking about—other major issues, which he so often dismisses. A president has to be willing to take on issues they don’t necessarily care the most about, able to become an expert on anything, able to pivot and start to care. I need more than “trust me,” and I don’t see Sanders failing to give me that, I see him refusing to do so. That’s not confidence-inspiring.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/14/1483010/-How-Bernie-Sanders-lost-me-and-Hillary-Clinton-won-me-over

[beam me up scottie]

1. Another saved sinner story?

Well it is Sunday.

[quickesst]

14. Pot...

...meet kettle.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511232954

[beam me up scottie]

15. Nice try but no cigar!

When a person can't be bothered to look up Bernie's proposals but still finds them wanting I find their "conversion" story suspect.

It reads like Bagdhad Bob wrote it.

[quickesst]

16. That's okay...

... I didn't expect any more than that.

[beam me up scottie]

17. It's a political come to Jesus moment, what did you expect, a hallelujah?

Not a chance, I've always been a skeptic, you should try it some time.

[quickesst]

19. Stretch Armstrong?

Is that you?

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Character-Options-1150-Stretch-Armstrong/dp/B0001RFN6S&h=500&w=417&tbnid=xYF1Ilhe2C4x0M:&docid=o7k_v-_vjGn-gM&ei=LfHAVu2mEpS6jwOxnoHgCg&tbm=isch&client=ms-android-verizon&ved=0ahUKEwit8cWAmfjKAhUU3WMKHTFPAKwQMwhCKAswCw

[beam me up scottie]

20. Hector Projector, is that you?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/render_definition.php?defid=1175035

[quickesst]

22. Haha....

...cute😏

[beam me up scottie]

23. I tried to find the Will and Grace clip but couldn't.

I think that's where the name came from. But yeah, who doesn't love baby owls?

[stonecutter357]

2. K&R!

[paleotn]

3. Actually, Bernie has been more than specific.....

...if you think otherwise, you're not paying attention.

[BeyondGeography]

28. Q: HRC said he would grow spending 40%

in the last debate and he didn't challenge it. Is that the number and, if so, are you comfortable selling that in the GE?

[paleotn]

36. Utter and complete bullshit....

...typical Clinton Sleaze. A lie of omission is still a lie.

Universal healthcare is net cost negative. The money to pay for it and more is already being spent by you and/or your employer, primarily in the private sector. It's an idiotically inefficient system and the laughing stock of the industrialized world. Health insurance 101...cost is primarily driven by the size of the risk pool. A single risk pool that includes everyone is the least costly system of all in total and for each participant.

Post secondary education at state run colleges and universities is paid for by taxing primarily high speed, speculative trading. Kind of like a tax on black jack and slots, since most of the financial industry's transactions today are no more than that. High speed traders profit not by relatively large moves in asset prices over time (fundamentals), but in small, second by second price moves (noise) on immense numbers of trades. They do so by mathematical algorithms and electronic trading. Even as far back as 2009, these traders accounted for only around 2% of of all financial firms, but over 70% of all equity volume. It's gotten worse since. The taxes imposed are tiny and virtually invisible to the average, retail investor, but if you're executing huge numbers of proprietary trades per day, the tax revenue adds up quickly.

Expanding SS is done simply by raising the income cap from the current $118,500. You know, the same thing Reagan and a Democratically controlled Congress did in the 80's.

Does Bernie's proposals increase gross federal spending? Yes. Now here comes Clinton's lie of omission. The spending increases are not based on new debt, but increased revenue by new taxes on financial transactions and redirecting current spending (private and public) into a far, far more efficient system, guaranteeing decent healthcare for all Americans. An expansion of SS won't hurt anyone who individually makes less than $118,500 per year, ie. the vast, vast majority of Americans.

She lied, and I hope you're not proud of it. Oh, by the way, Obama won in 2008 and 2012 by advocating new spending and an increase in taxes on anyone making over $250K per year. If memory serves, he won both times.

[BeyondGeography]

38. He stood there and said absolutely nothing

You still don't have a number on the net increase of spending. Does one exist? It's important because many Americans do not trust savings arguments and won't want to spend a penny more on taxes.

Just an FYI, I did not support HRC for a moment in 2008. I think our choices in this primary are kind of sad; one person who, for all of his innate goodness, will be cannon fodder in the GE and another who seems incapable of generating enthusiasm among people aged 45 and under. I do think the latter will be stronger in the GE though.

[paleotn]

41. Looked at recent polls comparing Bernie to

...Republicans? I think you're wrong....very wrong. The majority of Americans aren't that stupid and can understand what Bernie and Obama are and were getting across. Understanding that you're already spending the goddamn money anyway, and now you won't have to spend as much isn't too hard a fucking concept to get across. Ya think?

Sorry...I'm just getting sick and tired of the silly arguments against.

[paleotn]

54. Lastly, I won't venture a number on increased spend because no one ....

...has a good handle on what it would be. If we're going to move the bulk of healthcare spending under the federal umbrella, it will be significant, but not overnight. Probably not within the next two terms. Also factoring in are other commitments, obligations and priorities that can change year by year. For anyone to throw out a number at this point is disingenuous at best.

But that's not why she threw out the 40% number. It's was to confuse spend with debt. She also stated Bernie's proposals would balloon the debt. It won't. That's a damn lie and I explained clearly above why that's a damn lie.

[Ferd Berfel]

45. ANyone that is 'won over' by a creature of wall street isn't paying attention

or is a shill.

[Hiraeth]

4. I don't believe this person starting with the first sentence. eom

[LiberalAndProud]

5. It's probably just me, I always find conversion stories suspect.

[hoosierlib]

6. Probably a Clinton plant...

How very Dick Cheney of her...

[EndElectoral]

7. "Economic inequality is at the top of the list of issues" Uh,you're supporting Clinton over Sanders?

[Eric J in MN]

46. Yeah, she decided that Bernie Sanders' concern for economic inequality doesn't matter

...because he repeats himself.

Apparently, Laura Clawson didn't notice that 90% of what both Clinton and Sanders have said in every debate is stuff they've said before.

[frylock]

8. Dear Penthouse Forum...

[ananda]

9. Sounds like one of those phony I used to be conservative ..

.. now I'm liberal stories that make no sense whatsoever.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

10. some people have not watched him take calls for ten years

all you could ever hope to hear has been said by Sanders many times

Some people are willing stupid

[kstewart33]

11. Interesting piece that sums up Bernie's problems.

I live in Denver, and my high school daughter attended Bernie's rally last night. Her high school friends are huge Bernie supporters, but they said something very interesting. They said that they still love Bernie but to quote my daughter, "Bernie didn't say anything about how he would get these things done. He said he will get this and this but nothing about how, and how much it would cost." The students are still Bernie supporters, but I was struck by their recognition of the fact that Bernie hasn't provided a plan or a detailed explanation of how all of this is going to work, and how in the world we are going to pay for all of this.

And if high school students are beginning to see this, won't grownups come to see it too?

[Ron Green]

27. Grownups ought to explain to high school students

that it's not about "he will get this and this." It's about taking governance away from exploiters and extractors of wealth and restoring it to the people.

[Perogie]

39. you should point them to Bernie's website

You can't go into specifics in an hour speech that is why all the details are spelled out at his web site.

I hear the same thing from people when the President does the SoU. He didn't explain how he was going to..........fill in the blank.

Details can always be found at the candidates web site or the White house web site for the Pres.

[Perogie]

12. A story by....

A person that gets bored when he talks about the economy. This isn't E TV. Can't help this person has a short attention span.

SO you're touting an article from someone that can't pay attention long enough to learn anything as proof of.............?

Bernie's web site has videos that explain everything he is trying to accomplish in detail, in case people like this get too tired or bored trying to read it.

[Lucinda]

13. Thank you.

Though I've always been a Hillary supporter who thought well of Bernie, I've have some of the same reactions she did to things i'm seeing from the Sanders campaign. I also loved her connecting to Sady's excellent piece.

[ejbr]

18. Here's my take

[SidDithers]

21. DU rec for all kinds of reasons...nt

Sid

[NurseJackie]

24. Kicking again (for the reasons you didn't think of yet) n/t

[mcar]

25. K&R

[RobertEarl]

26. New headline

""How to lie about myself in 1000 words.""

Sorry, this is a huge fake. I don't get why people do this? Seems like a Capehearted wannabe. But then the author may be just another warmonger "Back to Iraq" type?

[redstateblues]

30. Of course when an HRC supporter converts to Bernie

There's no questioning it's authenticity and It's high fives all around. You are awfully quick on the draw with the personal attacks.

[wyldwolf]

33. every day we read laughable tales...

.... I was standing in at the grocery store and Hillary supporter converted to Bernie right before my eyes!

A Hillary canvasser knocked on my door and *poof* I converted her to a Bernie supporter.

My Republican brother-in-law floored me when he said he was secretly supporting Bernie!

on and on and on...

[RobertEarl]

42. Problem is

The author in your OP was devoid of reasoning. Just empty gargle-bargel.

It is evident people are flocking to Bernie. 0 to 60 in nine months in NH. H on the other hand is dropping like a meteor and Berning up right before our eyes. You may be in denial, but that's the truth.

You too, are next?

[wyldwolf]

43. Problem is

All those other anecdotal tales are bullshit.

[Dawson Leery]

50. Berniebots make up stuff.

Berniebots seem to know right wingers who just love Bernie.
The right wingers I know hate both of them.

[redstateblues]

29. The more I hear from Bernie

The less I feel good about him. The numbers don't add up.

[Perogie]

40. Please provide details that show his numbers don't add up. I would like to see that.

[brentspeak]

49. Poster got their talking points mixed up

Waiting for Camp Weathervine to get back and provide clarification before the edit.

[AOR]

31. Not surprising...

the writer uses the word I close to twenty times and is caught up in the politics of personal narcissism. Perfect fit for a Hillary Clinton supporter. That is not analysis. That is personalized drivel.

[lunamagica]

32. Kicking!

[madfloridian]

34. Laura's a DKos staffer, a front pager.

So that reinforces the DKos staff support of Hillary.

[wyldwolf]

35. so, unlike other Bernie followers on this thread, you believe her story is true?

Just checking.

[Iggy Knorr]

37. and he's found the wedge

look at him go!

[brentspeak]

53. About as true as "Anthony's" conversion experience

Losing Bernie: My Journey from #FeelTheBern to #HillYes

[Eric J in MN]

44. One of her reasons for voting for Hillary Clinton is pity.

Laura Clawson writes, "Sady Doyle speaks for me:"

Hillary Clinton is the impossible woman. The pressures she lives under, every moment of her life, are all-encompassing. She doesn’t have an inch of leeway, a single safe option; there is no version of Hillary Clinton that won’t be attacked. So the version of Hillary Clinton we get—this conflicted, conflict-inspiring candidate, the woman who has a genius-level recall of global politics but has to assure the world she’ll spend her presidency picking out flowers and china, the lady who books a guest spot on Broad City but can’t pronounce “Beyoncé,” the woman who was decades ahead of the curve on women’s rights but somehow thinks it’s a good idea to throw in a Bush-esque 9/11 reference at a debate—is the inevitable product of these pressures.

Supposedly, we should feel sorry for Hillary Clinton because of the pressure she's under.

The problem with that idea is that most people aren't millionaires and are under more pressure.

Another problem is that if pressure makes Hillary Clinton do dubious things, then she shouldn't be president.

[oasis]

47. Thoughtful transition. kick and rec for this.

[brentspeak]

48. "How I pretended to be an unbiased diarist for a while..."

[berniepdx420]

51. Happy to inform you that the momentum does not match your view point... Hillary is dropping and

Bernie is rising... That's the Big reality but thanks for sharing your important but myopic viewpoint...

[cantbeserious]

52. Predictably Spreading Establishment "Saved Sinner" FUD

eom

[mhatrw]

55. "I'm voting for Clinton because Sanders cares too much about THE number one issue I think we face."

"Hillary, on the other hand, is far more nuanced and flexible, because the only issue that actually matters to her is becoming President."