2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumit's NOT free stuff DAMMIT! its retrieval of what the 1% has stolen from us!!!!!!!
with the help of wall street and generations of corrupt and greedy politicians.
its not socialism, its not communisn, its not even "free" stuff at others' expense.
it's a damn recovery process.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,211 posts)Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)zentrum
(9,865 posts)
.photo of the day, up at the top of the front page.
840high
(17,196 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
jeepers
(314 posts)loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Students loans have turned out to be theft. Students didn't realize that they were signing over the time they have to spend in a second job to make their payments. Home owners were obviously robbed. 401Ks.....
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)don't know how student loans work? That's rich.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)but don't forget, there will be an economic collapse that will make it impossible to pay living expenses and loan payments without an extra job or two?
I'm pretty sure they didn't include that unfortunate crash of the American dream in the exit video I saw.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)stupid enough to be fooled by us." I bet when the widow next door get ripped off for a new roof, you are out there laughing your head off. What is rich is that some here love and worship the rich and think the poor should be smarter. Hello conservatism.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)All the RWNJ went all out for what they called a Free Iraq! and now the Middle East is as messed up as can be.
Trillions of dollars spent, maybe a million dead, and gas prices doubled all because they wanted a Free Iraq which is now an utter failure.
And Hillary voted for a Free Iraq!
rocktivity
(44,577 posts)rocktivity
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)must haven been some telepathy goin on....
earthshine
(1,642 posts)I am a Bernie supporter and volunteer.
We have been told from above -- be nice, be courteous, always.
Milliesmom
(493 posts)21st Century Poet
(254 posts)I disagree. The profanity makes it all the more effective because it makes people sit up and take notice. And it's memorable.
Bernie Sanders would never say that (not publicly, anyway), of course, but that is hardly the point. Any cartoonist knows the power of humour and slight exaggeration.
earthshine
(1,642 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)I'm also a volunteer.
Lord knows, I'd say those words a lot here (and have!), but I know he wouldn't. I'm also nice and courteous to everyone I phone bank. Why? Because I'm representing him.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)Pharaoh
(8,209 posts)so i can steal it and put it on my Facebook!
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)So what has he been doing for the past 25 years since he's been in Congress other than voting to get the NRA a free pass?
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)lining her pockets with corporate money and supporting criminal military acts, but lets not go there.....
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)Sanders has certainly benefited from corporate money since he has accepted money from the DSCC
As for any criminal military acts, I can't remember her being charged with anything along those lines.
What should be considered criminal however is Sanders caring the NRA's water and opposing the Brady Bill
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)sanders does not take corporate superpac money
and now that the dnc has lifted the limits on lobbyist contributions, i am suuuuuuure hillary will come out strong against it and refuse any additional lobbyist funds......
for your info, i invite you to check this thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511216008
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)And the DSCC accepted money from corporations and people working for them
Hell, he's attended a recent DSCC fundraiser where the minimum donation was $37,000 a person.
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/07/11/sanders-courts-marthas-vineyard-donors/
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)went to dscc
but lets not worry about the truth...
fiction is fun!
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)Was there someway that he made sure that none of the money he accepted in the past was from corporations or people who work for them?
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)to help clinton's tanking campaign.
but yes, this nonissue is infinitely more important.....
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)he has accepted money from the DSCC and had helped them raise money from the same corporations and individuals that he's bitching about
Seems a bit hypocritical to me but I guess that's just me
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)unlike Hillarys speaking fees, her huge donations, her superpacs, and the unlimited money she is about to receive thanks to her dutiful servant, dws.
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)In the past?
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)with the total HE actually received and how much hillary gets from superpacs, "speaking fees," and big donors, and then we can revisit this will hard facts
my guess is it will be lunch money compared to the gdp.
but i am happy to look at the facts...
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)I think I saw he accepted campaign donations about $200,000 from the DSCC.
But using your logic excepting that amount isn't bad.
How much would someone have to accept to make them "bad"?
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)over what time period?
not trying to be snarky, but having hard data on both candidates would allow us to compare contribution totals
and fwiw, i don't think candidates running on a dem ticket accepting help from the dem party is necessarily a bad thing. the issue for me is how much over what time period, and most importantly, in a contest among several individuals, are they being treated equally, or is favoritism being shown?
if hillary and bernie both got $50,000 (for example) in 2016, i would not have an issue with that. of there is inequality shown, that is a different matter
edit....here is some hard info
During the 2006 campaign, the DSCC gave $37,300 to the Sanders campaign and spent an additional $60,000 supporting him in campaign advertising. It also gave $110,000 to the Vermont Democratic Party to help Sanders, making eight separate committee transfers (the last coming on Oct. 4, 2006).
That adds up to $207,300 a little more than the $200,000 claimed by Clinton.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511221391
Armstead
(47,803 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)21st Century Poet
(254 posts)That is absolutely hilarious. Thank you.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)tokenlib
(4,186 posts)..and it's an investment in a better America paid for by tax revenue. "Free stuff" is simply a conservative dog whistle.. that some people are lazy freeloaders and not deserving, so that we refuse to help one another. And in the end, by not choosing to help one another, it costs us more money in the long run. Stupid assholes....
It drives me insane, free education, free healthcare on and on. No, these are not free, they are paid for by taxes. Does anyone refer to the fire department being free fire protection? Free highways? It is sure a way to get from yes we can to no we can't by using "free".
Peace
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)There is nothing free about education. "Free" tuition just makes the education possible. But students work hard for their education. Personally, I think that if you work hard at school and increase your productivity and ability to give back to society because of your education, you have earned your education.
If, as Hillary claims she wants, students are supposed to work to pay for their education, then lets impose a draft on everyone, rich and poor, and make everyone volunteer for a very minimal pay to make the country better. Personally I don't favor this proposal, but it does not make sense to only require poor and middle class kids whose parents can't afford to pay for tuition to work for their tuition at state schools. Kids who are poor and middle class may need to work for living expenses while in school. It's the wealthier kids who don't get the work experience they need to develop a strong work ethic in many cases, not the poorer ones who probably work more in the first place.
Not sure I am explaining my viewpoint well. Please let me know if you don't understand what I am saying. Thanks.
Salviati
(6,008 posts)It's time that this theft is stopped!
FairWinds
(1,717 posts)Another way of looking at it is that
the area between the two lines represents what has been stolen from us.
Can anyone do that rough figuring?
Ms. Yertle
(466 posts)I asked my dh about this, and he said that right now you can expect your 401k to double every 5 years. The transaction tax would increase this interval to 10 years. It will be a real hit to middle class retirees.
Don't know if it's true. Would love to hear if someone knows something different.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Blus4u
(608 posts)I don't know what a 'dh' is, but I believe the transaction tax proposed is a very small pct. of very large monetary movements.
Also I think doubling in 5 years is a stretch, unless you are putting in 16% of your income.
Peace
Ms. Yertle
(466 posts)Sounds like it's possible, with some luck and a lot of diligence.
("dh" stands for "dear husband," and he is investing 16% of his income.)
FairWinds
(1,717 posts)I can assure you that your DH is totally wrong.
If your account makes 100 trades per year, you'll only have a few dollars in fees.
The transaction tax is aimed at the high speed traders . . who are ACTUALLY THE ONES RIPPING YOU OFF!!
And if I were you, I would check your account. If your DH is making claims like that, he/she may not be ethical.
[And BTW, feel free to put him directly in touch with me. He should not be making those sorts of claims, and I will tell him so.]
Veterans For Peace
AzDar
(14,023 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)nation understood that education benefited everyone. The student, the college, the company and the country. Free stuff? No it is a program that benefits all of us.
TIME TO PANIC
(1,894 posts)white_wolf
(6,238 posts)I haven't had to call the police because I live in the middle of goddamn nowhere so let's get rid of them and the fire department and the post office. They call it free stuff, but I have another word for it: civilization.
w0nderer
(1,937 posts)same reason why I hate being told to do 'incrementals'
for 30+ years incrementals have moved against working class/working poor!
for 30+ years incrementals have moved right right right (or as dems party called it center center center (we'll loose the centrists))
THERE is little more room now!
if i give more 'incrementals my vote will be teaparty despite voting dem left
i have one time now....to ask for a left candidate....please...bring the spectrum back to the left
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Skwmom
(12,685 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)We all work pretty darn hard, at least I know I do or have in my life and almost everybody I know likewise.
The resources and money this nation has belongs to all of us, not a handful of rich people.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Nor are they honest.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)Who are you to determine who is and isn't progressive, or what words can and can't be used by progressives?
arcane1
(38,613 posts)politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)try to label my opinions as right wing talking points. I have a lifetime of education, experience and I'm an avid reader. I have been a political junkie since I was on the debating team in junior high school. So I don't need anyone telling me what is and is not a right wing talking point.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)You may not be a right winger, or think you are saying the same thing -- but you are when you use that phrase.
'
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Shandris
(3,447 posts)...intrinsic worth, it is merely the value the market attaches to it. At this point in time, the market has attached a per-person cost of $0 to education. Who are we to challenge the primacy of the market's wishes?
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Transportation is a basic need
Chico Man
(3,001 posts)Life is rarely fair.
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Why the hell my tax money should go to prop up some fat cat instead of maintain goddamn civilization...
handmade34
(22,757 posts)how bout we start the conversation with the "recovery process" for our African American brothers and sisters??
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)handmade34
(22,757 posts)I merely suggested we all understand history and look at how we got to where we are now... starting with the acknowledgement of how devastating slavery was for some and how that has influenced the Black communities...
I sure could use a break on old student loans and past health care bills but all in all I am white and I have had it pretty damn good compared to others... we have a lot of history to make reparations for -from slavery to big banks exploiting us and everything in between
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)and the aa community has a legacy of tremendous long term bias against them. so far, bernie wants to make major changes in several areas that disproportionately affect aa's....health care, criminal justice reform, education, jobs, and community revitalization. whether he rolls out plans to try and retroactively repair past damage remains to be seen. i haven't seen any candidate do that yet, although i don't know what om intended to do.
secondwind
(16,903 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,417 posts)Thanks for the thread, restorefreedom.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)Mike__M
(1,052 posts)[img][/img]
senz
(11,945 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)poprocks71
(15 posts)No matter what you make per year or the amount of your check everyone pays the same percent in taxes. It's considered unearned income, which is bull pucky. My last check was $100 annnnd I still had to pay 40%.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)zentrum
(9,865 posts)
it this way.
I sometimes find his way of saying this point becomes stale. It's a great, short, debate-worthy way to say it.
Send it to his campaign manager. I have no idea how to do this, even though I've searched for how to do this before.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)if his campaign people are not regular visitors here to gauge the temperature of the campaign
SHRED
(28,136 posts)mopinko
(70,208 posts)at least for most people.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)airplaneman
(1,240 posts)Right next to taxing to death (like the 2.5% medical items tax).
These statements are so far from reality its hard to understand how anyone could believe the statements.
-Airpalne
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)It's time to tax the corporations and 1% to pay for the things they benefit from and use every day.
It's time to put the NEEDS of the 99% over the DESIRES of the 1%.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)i probably should have put it in quotes..i referred to it derisively, of course
and yes, the code is getting used liberally now...
earthside
(6,960 posts)When Sen. Sanders gets the nomination, the Repuglicans will go after him 100 percent on 'free stuff' and 'socialism'.
But the good thing is that we know that and threads like this show us how to respond effectively.
The truth is indeed that the crony capitalism that has gained such prominence in this country since Reagan is cheating.
What else can you call it when a person works hard 40 hours a week and can only make a minimum wage that doesn't even pay the living expenses of a teenager? What else can you call when you put thousands and thousands of dollars in a 401K for retirement and see your investment nearly wiped out because of Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, derivatives, and government bailouts? (And even after 8 years of Obama you haven't got back what you had?)
From what I've seen so far the "free stuff" argument is opening the door to very strong responses from the Sanders campaign.
It is going to be a rough general election, but absolutely Sen. Sanders can win because he is channelling the anger --- and hope --- of working and middle class people in this country.
Hillary cannot do that. Period.
And whomever the Repuglican nominee is can't do that either.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)good! Dictators work havoc. You let yourselves be deprived before your own eyes of the best part of your revenues; your fields are plundered, your homes robbed, your family heirlooms taken away. You live in such a way that you cannot claim a single thing as your own; and it would seem that you consider yourselves lucky to be loaned your property, your families, and your very lives. All this havoc, this misfortune, this ruin, descends upon you not from alien foes, but from the one enemy whom you yourselves render as powerful as he is, for whom you go bravely to war, for whose greatness you do not refuse to offer your own bodies unto death. He who thus domineers over you has only two eyes, only two hands, only one body, no more than is possessed by the least man among the infinite numbers dwelling in your cities; he has indeed nothing more than the power that you confer upon him to destroy you.
Where has he acquired enough eyes to spy upon you, if you do not provide them yourselves? How can he have so many arms to beat you with, if he does not borrow them from you? The feet that trample down your cities, where does he get them if they are not your own? How does he have any power over you except through you? How would he dare assail you if he had no cooperation from you? What could he do to you if you yourselves did not connive with the thief who plunders you, if you were not accomplices of the murderer who kills you, if you were not traitors to yourselves? You sow your crops in order that he may ravage them, you install and furnish your homes to give him goods to pillage; you rear your daughters that he may gratify his lust; you bring up your children in order that he may confer upon them the greatest privilege he knows to be led into his battles, to be delivered to butchery, to be made the servants of his greed and the instruments of his vengeance; you yield your bodies unto hard labor in order that he may indulge in his delights and wallow in his filthy pleasures; you weaken yourselves in order to make him the stronger and the mightier to hold you in check.
From all these indignities, such as the very beasts of the field would not endure, you can deliver yourselves if you try, not by taking action, but merely by willing to be free. Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.
...
http://www.constitution.org/la_boetie/serv_vol.htm
People have been pointing out very much what you said for a long time, eh?
From
The Discourse on Voluntary Servitude
ÉTIENNE DE LA BOÉTIE,
1548
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)how some shit never changes.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Paka
(2,760 posts)Good way to look at it.
HenryWallace
(332 posts)The bounty which society produces at the very minimum must provide for a adequate social safety net for all it's citizens!
In a modern industrialized society, people cannot be consigned to the vicissitudes of laissez-faire market forces..... This is not, nor has it ever been a rational option. Private charity immediately prove inadequate and ultimately reward the most selfish at the expense of more empathetic of us.
The rise of Capitalism necessitated the rise the progressive movement; and in fact, Capitalism's continued viability is dependent upon our ability to moderate it's excesses (project to last 30 years out another 30 years and the world will be on the verge of digressing into feudalism).
Serious people have always struggled with articulating what the extent of this "safety net" should be and how to fund it.
The Republicans (and by association the Third-Wayers) have lost their seat at the adults' table. Unending tax cuts, dogmatic calls for smaller government and rigid insistence on economic (this word is often omitted) freedom lack long term rationality!
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Jon Ace
(243 posts)neverforget
(9,436 posts)--------
I would say that all parties including the White House, the Pentagon and Capitol Hill have given up any pretense of using emergency money for emergencies, Eaglen said. No one even tries to put the veneer of accountability on OCO dollars anymore.
--------
The new OCO budget also includes $8.1 billion for classified programs across the Defense Department. That money will go toward the militarys secret programs, and will not be subject to the same level of scrutiny as the rest of the budget. The Defense Department does not disclose details about the programs to protect national security, said Mark Wright, a Pentagon spokesman.
--------
I would just say its a politically convenient way of getting around the budget cap, Harrison said. Ideally, when a new administration comes in office next year, they should try to strike a deal with Congress that addresses all this. I dont think thats realistic, though. I think realistically were going to stumble along year to year, and that we will continue to use OCO funds to get around the budget caps.
Can you imagine a "slush fund" for helping Americans with Flint water crisis, infrastructure, health care, poverty? Yeah, I can't either. The lobbyists for them just can't compete with the MIC.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)and props to be exploited by clintoncorp.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)They had a lot of help from the 10% along the way to lie, cheat and steal their way to the top.
The longer it continues, unabated, the harder the climb out of it will be. Heck, thanks to the invaluable assistance of shareholders in denying the effects of climate change, it might not even be possible. That has to weigh heavy on ones conscience.
Assuming one has one of course.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)and yes, the longer it goes, the more likely we reach the point of no return. if we havent already.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)like when a thief has to make restitution....
JFKDem62
(383 posts)It does not belong to the elite.
Festivito
(13,452 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)DiehardLiberal
(580 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)We have been hearing two things for too long.
"Tax cuts for the rich" and "there's no money to pay for it".
Keep in mind Bush gave the rich a trillion dollar tax cut in the middle of the war in Iraq.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)before we have major problems due to the obsolescence of the electrical grids.
but hey, lets have another war and another bank bailout....