2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSanders incarceration campaign promise: Delusional
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/02/11/bernie_sanders_can_t_fulfill_the_debate_promise_he_just_made_on_mass_incarceration.html
Report excerpt:
On this last point, Sanders trotted out an absurd promise he has used several times before: that by the end of his first term, the United States will no longer be the world leader in incarceration.
What Sanders means by this is that under just four years of his magical leadership, the U.S. will bring down its jail and prison population by about 600,000 people. Where does that figure come from? Consider that the No. 2 spot on the list of countries with the most prisoners in the world right now is China, and it has about 1.66 million people behind bars. The U.S., by comparison, has about 2.3 million.
Sanders did not mention during his remarks how he plans to make the leap from 2.3 million to fewer than 1.66 million. But regardless of what he has in mind, its pure fantasy for several reasons. Chief among them is that the president of the United States has no direct control over most of the nations correctional facilities. This is because jails, which currently hold fewer than 745,000 people, are under local control, and state prisons, which hold about 1.35 million, are under state control. That leaves the federal prison systemthe only one that the federal government is actually in charge ofwith 210,000 people, or about 10 percent of the pie.
Its true that the president has a bully pulpit from which he can say inspiring things that set the tone for officials working at all levels of government. Its also true that in theory, the federal government could try to bribe state governments to rely less on incarceration. But the bottom line is that the feds can only set policy for their own prison system and that means theres a very low ceiling on the amount of progress that a president, no matter how ambitious he or she is, can do to reduce the prison population. The truth of the matter is that even if Sanders were to free every single person currently sitting in a federal prison, the U.S. would still be ahead of China in the incarceration Olympics by more than 400,000 people.
End of excerpt.
Sometimes I feel bad for Hillary. It's hard to run against Santa Claus, and very gullible voters.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)a ridiculous number of americans?
onecaliberal
(32,894 posts)There is no daylight. They don't even pretend any more.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)pretending to care about anything other then Hillary and that's there is any chance of a honest discussion are both gone.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)delusional. But then, neither I nor Bernie believe the private-prison-for-profit industry the Clintons helped to create will go down easily. Go down they must, and go down they will.
Vote for Bernie Sanders in 2016.
He's the best shot we've got
to get the country we want.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:31 PM - Edit history (1)
Sanders' plan isn't realistic. It's kind of like pledging to end cancer or climate change in 4 years. It would be wonderful, but it ain't gonna happen.
It definitely is tough running against Santa Claus' high aspirations that most of us would love to see. I'm afraid a lot of folks are in for a big disappointment, however things work out.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)People stating that I don't want criminal justice reform in the biggest possible way are dead wrong and really don't know me.
Our high incarceration rates are terrible.
But the mere fact that a major presidential candidate could say something that far fetched and get away with nothing but applause is stunning.
I can't believe there has been such little reporting on this.
Not only is it a mathematical impossibility in 4 years, it clearly shows that Bernie Sanders knows nothing about the issue. Or simply thinks the public will believe anything he says no matter how factually ridiculous it is.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)If an individual was elected president and was determined to radically scale back the federal drug war, she or he could. This is not some crazy theory; it is a simple fact based on the actual design of our drug laws. Dramatically curtailing the federal drug war can be done as an action of the executive branch without needing the approval of Congress.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)That's 'unrealistic'.
Just in case
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Clearly, there is very little grasp on the reality and interpretation of the written word, or the nuances of practicality. Everything is black and white and if doesn't appear to be black and white they will contort the conversation to make it black or white.
Of course you never said that you want to keep the prison system in tact as it is today. You clearly spoke to the idea that Bernie makes unrealistic promises and timelines.
The BS supporter tack is try make these ridiculous assersions and try and paint you into a corner. It's it so laughably, predictably pathetic.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)JFK - Sept. 12, 1962
Within a decade...
July 20, 1969
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)the most optimistic polls show 58% for it (and we are assuming that 58% has some idea of what the cost will be and that there will be no choice of plans). But that means 42% aren't for it. I'd bet another 15%, at minimum, will be against Sanders' plan. In any event, I think a public option that doesn't force people who don't want it, will be much easier to enact. If the government plan is best, which I think it will be, people will gravitate toward it. We accomplish virtual Medicare for All without having to fight the significant number who don't want it (even if they are just stupid) and those who might want it but are afraid of the taxes required to pay for it. I don't think Sanders' projections are even close, and I ain't the only one who has trouble seeing how he goes from the $3 Trillion currently spent on healthcare to $1.38 Trillion. Cutting out the $195 Billion in insurance company profits doesn't do that. A help yes, but something a significant number of people are too stupid to understand or are just to conservative to accept what is good for society.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)there would have been no problems. He said 4 years. Different ball game.
Kittycat
(10,493 posts)I know, we should just elect the very people that helped get us to the state of shit we're in, because of course they want to fix it. That's why HRC has been collecting our wall street, pharma, tobacco and private prison bailout money, so they can refund us and defund them. It must be, right? Because who with any sliver of common sense would elect HRC otherwise?
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Meanwhile, Guantanamo is still open.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)If an individual was elected president and was determined to radically scale back the federal drug war, she or he could. This is not some crazy theory; it is a simple fact based on the actual design of our drug laws. Dramatically curtailing the federal drug war can be done as an action of the executive branch without needing the approval of Congress.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Most prisoners are from the states so the Federal Drug laws need ammending. But if you look at the history of the drug war you will know that it aint happnin. Too much money beimg made. Even drug companies love the drug war.
There are few steps a president can do aline because the actual legislation DOES need congress. On this republicans can be peeled off.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Release those and get them treatment and then stop arresting MORE drug offenders. Working at the federal level alone could get us there in 4 years especially if the Feds actually began working with the states to reduce their drug offender populations (Organizations like http://www.cut50.org/ are bi-partisan)
Hell, the Senate actually voted on a bi-partisan basis to address mass incarceration last year
questionseverything
(9,658 posts)we finally have a candidate willing to go on record about decriminalizing mj......which is huyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyye
hc is invested in continuing this "war" in which US citizens are the enemy
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)with military force, yet we have been doing that for decades and solved nothing.
It is unrealistic to think we can continue to spend trillions of dollars on new and exotic ways of killing people and it will not eventually destroy us economically, yet we have been doing it for decades.
It is unrealistic to think we can continue to pollute the planet and suffer no consequences, yet every time some one brings ups global warming, our captains of industry and their pet politicians push their fingers further into their ears and sing louder.
And I can go on with dozens of examples if you wish.
We do the unrealistic every day.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)marmar
(77,090 posts)..... who accept lots of money from the prison-industrial complex and have no plans to change it, and a very rigged and corrupt system.
Getting rid of private prisons would probably go a LONG way toward that goal.
As would decriminalizing/legalizing marijuana and releasing anyone who is still in jail for it's possession.
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)If Bernie Sanders becomes president, we'll still be #1 in incarceration after 4 years. At least he'll be trying to change that.
Red Oak
(697 posts)Yes, keep them in jail!
My "jails for profit" donors might lose money on the deal.
Private Prison Lobbyists Are Raising Cash for Hillary Clinton
https://theintercept.com/2015/07/23/private-prison-lobbyists-raising-cash-hillary-clinton/
"As we reported yesterday, fully five Clinton bundlers work for the lobbying and law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld. Corrections Corporation of America, the largest private prison company in America, paid Akin Gump $240,000 in lobbying fees last year. The firm also serves as a law firm for the prison giant, representing the company in court."
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Wilms
(26,795 posts)Couldn't a lower number of people entering the system reduce the population by 600,000 in four years?
itsrobert
(14,157 posts)And Sanders says he's going to have higher employment rates, but I haven't heard his plan for doing that. Raise taxes?
Wilms
(26,795 posts)You really don't?
Then you have a little reading to do.
Or are you baiting me to indicate how malicious and dumb some people are for refusing to acknowledge that if my health and education costs go down...and my taxes go up by an amount less than that...I'm doing a bit better.
No. You know that. No one that dumb or malicious on DU.
itsrobert
(14,157 posts)But topic is more employment. How is Sanders going to get more people employed?
Wilms
(26,795 posts)Matariki
(18,775 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)Obama is starting to release drug offenders. Speed that up and stop the war on drugs and I can see it happening.
Edited to add that the Feds can stop funding the war on drugs as well!
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Economics#sthash.qxLPYFr1.dpbs
jillan
(39,451 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)That is the political science definition of conservative. Satisfied with the status quo.
Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)A bipartisan group looking to cut incarceration rates in half in 10 years. If someone wants to call the ACLU and tell them it is not going to happen, I'll start on the rest.
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)That's why we need a revelution
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Bernie Sanders is the candidate who absolutel will go to bat, in a big way, to reduce incarceration rates. You quibble about numbers rather than policy. Fail.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)and those are 2 year old numbers. Reducing the population by 600,000 ~5 years from now is not delusional.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/releasing-drug-offenders-wont-end-mass-incarceration/
^snip^
According to the Bureau of Prisons, there are 207,847 people incarcerated in federal prisons. Roughly half (48.6 percent) are in for drug offenses. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, there are 1,358,875 people in state prisons. Of them, 16 percent have a drug crime as their most serious offense. There were also 744,600 inmates in county and city jails. (The BOP data is current as of July 16. From BJS, the latest jail statistics are from midyear 2014, and the latest prison statistics from year-end 2013.) Thats an incarceration rate of about 725 people per 100,000 population.
That would be over 100,000 from federal prisons and about 217,000 from state prisons plus the county and city jails and those are numbers from 2014 and 2013. 600,000 by January 2021 is easily within reach.
Bernie is not the delusional one here.
Jarqui
(10,130 posts)As president, Bernie would have the ability to commute or pardon. He could dramatically cut a bunch the incarcerated free with the stroke of a pen.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)krawhitham
(4,647 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)than one who is in bed with private prison lobbyists:
https://theintercept.com/2015/07/23/private-prison-lobbyists-raising-cash-hillary-clinton/
Corrections Corporation of America and the Geo Group could both see their fortunes turning if there are fewer people to lock up in the future.
Last week, Clinton and other candidates revealed a number of lobbyists who are serving as bundlers for their campaigns. Bundlers collect contributions on behalf of a campaign, and are often rewarded with special favors, such as access to the candidate.
t.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)statues?
I wish we had a co-presidency setup, Hillary could be co-President on what she is good at and Bernie could be co-president on what he is good at.
demwing
(16,916 posts)and free thousands of non-violent inmates who were jailed on marijuana possession
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/dofp12.pdf
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Oh I forget, Bernie is still trying to appeal to teabaggers and they would be up in arms if he said that.
Great leadership there Bernie.
scscholar
(2,902 posts)refuses to sign the pardons, because they actually support putting most of us in prison. If they didn't, they'd do something about it. Do something about it.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It treats the prison population as if it was a static collection of individuals.
It's not.
Imagine you are filling a bucket with a small hole at the bottom. In order to fill the bucket, you have to keep the rate of incoming water greater than the rate of outgoing water.
People leave prison every day - by completing their sentences.
If we weren't locking people up for marijuana possession, that will greatly reduce the inflow. The outflow takes care of itself, because people are not in prison permanently.
There are also people serving unreasonably long sentences due to mandatory minimums and "three strikes" laws which effectively impose long sentences for minor offenses. That's why there are so many people there "right now".
It's not about springing people who are, today, in prison. But the article uses a misleading premise by pretending the prison population is not a dynamic equilibrium.
boston bean
(36,223 posts)actual thought.
Response to boston bean (Reply #29)
Sheepshank This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)If we never attempted to change anything, we would never have gone into space, or developed personal computers, or cars, or phones or televisions or...
Please.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)It is amazing what people will say in politics. Throwing all reason out the window in support of failed positions is delusional.
If Bernie was to say the sky was blue there would be posters on DU claiming he was wrong. I wished they'd just stop it, It is becoming embarrassing to read such drivel on a progressive site.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)What a joke. Is there anything Bernie wont promise to get the nomination?
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)is that you believe that. From the candidate who will change her accent in different parts of the country, will pander to any and every demographic. But is there anything Bernie won't say? High comedy as usual from you.
And get used to saying President Bernie. Or President Sanders. Whatever suits you.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)You get used to sayin President Trump if the democratic party is foolish enough to go with McGovern 2.
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)with high approval ratings.. So yeah, great comparison. I take it you will pledge to support Bernie against Trump though?
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)I don't do purity tests!!!!!1111!!
But I am an actual democrat, I don't just play one on the Bernie Underground so yes I would vote for him.
The republicans would tear him to shreds in the general though, but President Trump wouldn't be my fault.
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)that the opponent of the person we support will get thrashed in the GE
And sorry to put you on the spot re: your vote.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)Hillary gives us the best chance to hold the Whitehouse for 3 straight terms. The Supreme Court alone over the next 4 years is worth it for people to be smart with their vote.
This is the map of Nixon/McGovern in 1972. No it won't be this bad. But getting Bernie Sanders to 270 electoral votes is a very difficult task.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)SheenaR
(2,052 posts)At least someone is willing to F*CKING TRY!!
Jesus, every single thing. Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, unicorns, etc.
Since when are we the party of NOPE... The party of ehh that's too friggin hard
People want specifics all the time.. How'd specifics go for Hillary last night on the big government question. Stutter stutter, 100 billion dollars... She offers as many specifics as Bernie. Yet she is a realist..
I personally don't understand what it is like to look around and say "We can't do this" so often. But I learn every day how many people can do that.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)This is all I need to know about you. You are going on my ignore list. Buh-bye.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Response to aaaaaa5a (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
Truprogressive85
(900 posts)I want a fighter , not someone who sits back yell "NO WE CAN'T"
Obama inspired with hope and chants of "Yes we can"
This why young voters are so uninspired, Hillary Clinton supporters calling voters gullible such a turn off
Was it gullible when voters to believed that Obama would close Gitmo ?
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)for pushing for peace in the middle east or putting solar panels on the white house.
Name me one great Democratic president that didn't have bold ideals to make the world a better place.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)SamKnause
(13,110 posts)They made disastrously wrong decisions.
Humans can solve these problems.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Unlike the author of that piece you DO understand that if there are X people in prison today, and also X people in prison in 2020 - they won't be the same people.
The analysis is pretty stupid, since it looks at current numbers as if the "prison population" was a static thing. It's not.
Every day - people leave prison.
Every day - other people enter prison.
To reduce the prison population by 2020, one doesn't have to set ANYONE free who is currently IN prison.
Every 37 seconds, someone is arrested for possession of marijuana.
The reason the incarceration rate is so high is due to - (a) mandatory minimums and (b) marijuana.
The point is to reduce the RATE at which we are locking people up and keeping them unreasonably.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Guess I can just surrender now and save myself from thinking that this Nation will EVER improve. NOT GONNA HAPPEN, NEVER EVER.
That Surrender Monkey enough for you boss?
alarimer
(16,245 posts)After all, Obama failed to keep a lot of his campaign promises.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)He CAMPAIGNED on it. Right Wingers wanted each case handled separately which would have jammed the dockets of the courts for decades.
They expect the same of 'smokers of da herb'.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)Yep ... They do ... Add long as Bernie and his Liberal supporters thinks it's GOOD to free pot smokers from prison terms they should NOT have received, then Hillary supporters MUST HATE THE IDEA ...
Your username is incorrectly spelt ...
S/B 'baaaaaa'
Edit: gone
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)nilesobek
(1,423 posts)or corrections corporation of america, has been active here in Idaho with horrible results. People were getting maimed, their faces smashed in gladiatorial combat organized by the guards. The victims are often nonviolent drug offenders or traffic offenders.
This is the face of deregulation
CCA has an atrocious reputation. It boggles my mind that any Democrat would take money from them. Bernies numbers are right on target.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)That applies to federal, state, and local inmates.
demwing
(16,916 posts)Not state, not local, and not civil.
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)the ultra right wing Governor of Idaho.
They made a business out of pulling people over for petty offenses then making millions off their carcasses like human traffikers.
Ferguson Mo. is a prime example of this type of human exploitation.
Sad that I have to tell my children and grandchildren about how we treat our fellow human beings.