Bernie's 'Kissinger' thing won't register as much as Hillary's anti-Obama charge

[bigtree]

I get the Kissinger objections. I don't need a recital of his history because I lived through it. The point Sen. Sanders was making was about Sec. Clinton's judgment on foreign policy and I think it fell flat on basic logic. Bernie led his attack on Hillary with the internet's latest obsession with her refusal to disavow her professional relationship with a fellow, former Sec. of State - Hillary expressing that relationship as a 'friendship.'

However, it doesn't take much searching to locate the wide range of people Hillary intends to rely on for foreign policy advice. She'll rely on a team which is prepared to respond to today's world challenges, and it won't be centered on or directed by this conservative dinosaur.

It makes for click-bait political barbs directed toward Sec. Clinton, but her polite relationship with Kissinger isn't a real issue facing Americans, it's a political one designed for scoring points in an election. I don't think voters will be swayed by this and can easily understand the point Hillary made about advantaging a presidency with every bit of expertise available, while under no obligation to accept the worst of advice.

Besides, who's advising Bernie?

Blake Hounshell ?@blakehounshell 1h1 hour ago
FLASHBACK: Sanders campaign won’t name a single foreign policy adviser http://politi.co/1NHxAQt

The issue Sec. Clinton raised about Bernie Sanders remarks about Pres. Obama's 'leadership' efforts will likely hit more closely to home with Democrats who overwhelmingly approve of the job the president has done in office. In areas of the country where black voters are crucial to support for these candidates in the upcoming races, that support for Pres. Obama is not going to provide wide agreement with Bernie's contention that the president's leadership has been lacking.

Hillary Clinton ?@HillaryClinton 41m41 minutes ago
President Obama doesn't get the credit he deserves. His accomplishments shouldn't be up for debate at a #DemDebate.

If record voter participation by disaffected Americans fed up with politics as usual represents a political revolution, the primary contest in 2008 between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama would appear to be the hallmark of a revolutionary campaign. Record numbers voted in that Democratic primary:

Wiki: Voter turnout on Super Tuesday was at 27% of eligible citizens, breaking the previous record of 25.9% set in 1972. Turnout was higher among Democrats than Republicans, with Democratic turnout surpassing Republican turnout even in traditionally red states where the number of registered Democrats is proportionally low. Many states reported high levels of Democratic voter registration in the weeks before primaries.From January 3 through February 5, Democratic turnout exceeded Republican turnout, 19.1 million to 13.1 million.

President Obama took full advantage of social media during his presidency, and his political team has worked throughout to advantage their political agenda of the unprecedented network of supporters they'd generated, beginning with the record support he received in his campaign.

Indeed, it's the record attraction and participation of a generation of new, black voters which helped propel Barack Obama into office and keep him there to serve out his second term. It's that enthusiasm, organization, and loyalty that Bernie Sanders is challenged to re-create for his own bid in upcoming contests where the non-black vote isn't as predominate as the last two events.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

1. that will be true for stupid people

...

[bigtree]

3. good luck with that line

[SoLeftIAmRight]

9. thuth is often ugly

...

[MrWendel]

13. Do...

smart people spell "Truth" as "thuth"?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

14. LOL

...

[bettyellen]

11. good luck canvassing! that's ALL I am saying.

[BeyondGeography]

2. He played the Kissinger card, she played the Obama card

that was John King's line on CNN and it was pretty good, imo.

[Bonobo]

4. I completely disagree.

No one is going to NOT vote for Sanders because he has criticized Obama.

OTOH, Hillary palling around with a war criminal (essentially) already fits the narrative, the fear, that people have of Hillary. That she is a conservative in dem clothing, that she is too much of a warhawk.

You need to think and learn more about how important narratives are.

You can't just throw random shit at the wall. If it doesn't fit the narrative, it doesn't stick.

[bettyellen]

15. Because millennials are obsessed with Kissinger and hate Obama.....

That is quite the narrative.

[Bonobo]

24. Sorry you have such a low opinion of Millenials. I hope that works out for you. nt

[TTUBatfan2008]

26. Millenials don't hate Obama...

They are disappointed that he didn't turn out to be the reformer everyone hoped he could be. Millenials strongly supported his first election campaign and even his re-election. He would not have made it to the Presidency and he would not have stayed in the Presidency without their support. They make up 20% of the electorate. I suggest the Clinton campaign figure out a way to stop insulting their intelligence.

[bettyellen]

28. I should have added the sarcasm tag- I thought it was self evident. No? I guess not!

[TTUBatfan2008]

31. It's hard to tell, lol.

There are official surrogates for the Clinton campaign that keep talking down to Millenials. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[bettyellen]

34. No problem! I have been on both sides of these misunderstandings myself! LOL *hat tip*

[JTFrog]

16. "Hillary palling around with"?

Doesn't it embarrass you just a little to parrot Sarah Palin?

[Bonobo]

25. Wasn't aware that she invented that term.

Maybe I don't follow her as closely as you do, Ms. Frog.

[JTFrog]

27. Who needs to follow her? Many of us still remember 2008 like it was yesterday.

You are using one of her key slogans.

[Bonobo]

29. It was unconscious, I assure you.

If you actually think I would consciously do that, you have a kind of serious problem with hatred, I think. Seriously. It's not healthy to fetish over people you don't know that much.

[JTFrog]

32. I have problems because I recall the 2008 primaries? Only if a good memory causes problems I guess.

However, I am certainly not the one who gets timed out every other week because of some "serious problem with hatred". And the ego it takes to suggest that I have some fetish over you is UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE and quite disturbing.

[Bonobo]

35. Fetish = ritual attention.

And your problem would be pretty obvious if you are suggesting that I consciously used that term (which you actually did imply).

[bettyellen]

30. It was a "signature quote" Tiny Fey always tries to work it in. Also "I can see" and "Russia".

Those are the classic Palinisms in the USA.

[Bonobo]

33. I have not lived in the US since 2009.

Things slip away. You'd be surprised the holes that appear in your media knowledge.

[bettyellen]

41. Try to find the very last Fey doing Palin clip- I think it was after she went to Iowa, she went on

a tear-- She sounded like a drunk preacher trying to rap or something.
Actually find Palin's, pee yourself while watching, then watch Fey's take on it and roll on the floor.
Literally the best Palin ever.

[bettyellen]

45. Keywords are: Palin + Iowa + Improvised RANT hold onto your seat.

[Bonobo]

70. Hilarious.

After I watched it, I had to check out Palin's speech to see if it was ANYTHING like the parody. OMG. She nailed it!

[bettyellen]

37. It embarrassed me to read it!

[JTFrog]

40. It's getting a little crazy up in here, lol. n/t

[HooptieWagon]

5. Kissinger comment will score big with older Democrats.

We remember.

[thomservo]

6. .

[LonePirate]

7. For the vast majority of voters under 40, the name Kissinger means nothing.

Most of them have no memory of him, let alone context of him. Sure, some political and history buffs know of him; but for large swaths of Gen X and Millennials, the name means nothing.

[kath]

43. yes, but I think the fact that Bernie said that HK's actions set the stage for one of the largest

Genocides in history might prompt some people to look up Kissinger to find out more about his evil history.

[delrem]

72. Although that is most probably true, LonePirate, it is a disgrace.

It is a disgrace to the USA, just as Kissinger is a disgrace to the USA.

The US should learn from Germany about the value of "owning up".
But the US never was defeated. It just slunk out.

[Politicalboi]

8. It should scare the shit out of people

That Hillary may use that war criminal for advise. As far as criticizing Obama, so what, he's not running against Obama.

[bigtree]

17. they'll both be challenged to accomplish at least as much

...as this historically successful presidency.

[bettyellen]

21. The spin that a cordial relationship with a predecessor will determine foreign policy is ridiculous.

And she put that to bed while Bernie's mentors are still a mystery. He needs to get on that shit.

[JRLeft]

10. With older black people, not younger black people.

Hillary will win Super Tuesday IMO, though but will lose the election. Young people don't like her at all.

[bettyellen]

46. What young people will switch to Trump or Bloomberg though?

[JRLeft]

49. Some will switch and others won't vote, they cannot stand her.

She's not an honest person.

[bettyellen]

52. I think she is a deeply pragmatic person. And not the same person she was in the 90's.

Because the world is different. I think she gives back quite a bit of the zeitgeist of the time, and that is not always a bad thing. Being inflexible can be bad sometimes too. I see them both evolving.

[JRLeft]

53. The Gen xers and millennials and especially millennials see her as a person

who does not have their best interest. I know a lot of Hillary supporters who hate Bernie. They won't vote for him, mix that in with higher republican turnout and you get President Trump.

[bettyellen]

55. See everyone I know likes them both- except very young and new to it people.... but my

town is way liberal and super diverse. One dude I know hates her, but he has literally admitted it is 3/4 irrational, LOL.

[JRLeft]

56. My problem with Hillary is the same with all democrats who take money from

industries eventually you have to return that favor.

[bettyellen]

59. Does it have to be that way if we go ahead and replace congress? They are the bigger villains in

this story. Why would the revolution die with Bernie if the idea always required a better congress? And governors! Plan will take a lot of years. Need to take it all!
No one was ever getting free college next year anyway, right?

[JRLeft]

65. It requires the voters to stay engaged after the election.

[bettyellen]

67. It already does... with Sanders. It is a very long game he requires, and it is worth level setting

voters and activists that this is true no matter who gets in. If god forbid, we get a Trump, all the more reason we need a better congress, and better governors, etc.

[bigdarryl]

20. She played part in getting started the Iran deal WTF are you talking about

[karynnj]

76. the role she played was mostly increasing sanction

At that time, sanctions were backed as much to punish Iran as to lead to the diplomacy. There were many favoring more sanctiond, absolutely against a deal.

Inside accounts recount that she was skeptical and not an advocate for the negotiations. Obama, after sending Senator Kerry to test what Oman was willing to do with regards to a secret channel, authorized the effort.

Two of Clinton ' s top people were involved and met with Iranians in 2011 and then it was seen as unpromishing in 2012. In 2013, Rouhani was elected in May. These same two people, Sullivan, now working for Biden, and Burns, now working for Kerry ... made new contacts ... in September at the UN Obama talked to Rouhani and made public the US joining the multinational talks with Kerry leading.

Kerry spent months working on the interim deal, the framework, and the final deal. At each point, the common wisdom was it has less than a 50 50 chance and at some points Kerry was said to be anything from delusional to wasting his time. The one thing that was clear was that if it failed at any of these points, it would be Kerry's failure.

With success, any number of people are claiming their piece. With Clinton, the sanctions were important, but given how she distanced herself repeatedly in case of failure until there was a final deal, it is not clear as President she would have risked the political capital and I doubt she would have had a Secretary as committed as Kerry.

You can find the Obama and Kerry speeches at the conclusion of each of the three steps, they thank many many people... but not Clinton. Given that she is the likely nominee had she really been key. She would have been included prominately.

In fact, there was another Secretary other than Kerry , who was key.... secretary Moniz.

[bettyellen]

22. LINK?

[bigtree]

23. on policy, which is fine

...but Bernie attacked Obama's leadership, in a way which denigrated his presidency, not just some policy decision he made.

[bettyellen]

39. Exactly, and that is causing the "How does this happen then, Bernie?" reaction.

And he walked right into it.

[karynnj]

77. what of Clinton ' s comments on Syria

She not only spoke of her disagreement, but suggested that not following her advise provided space for ISIS to grow.

[enid602]

18. Hill

Her turning around the Kissinger question by asking who Bernie's foreign policy advisers are was truly brutal. Keeping on his ass regarding his Obama comments was brilliant.

[phleshdef]

19. Both attacks are somewhat frivolous

I don't believe that Hillary Clinton would ever do anything like what Henry Kissinger did and I know that Bernie Sanders has been very faithful to President Obama. His comment about primaring the president was something I heavily criticized at the time myself. But he came out the next week and recanted that. Let's not act like that the same thing hasn't happened to Hillary Clinton as far as having to recant or otherwise evolve on a previous statement. Even Obama has had to eat crow a few times. There's no way any political leader can hold office for any significant amount of time and not end up having some moments like that

[Beartracks]

38. Thanks for that moment of rationality.

==================

[bettyellen]

48. Yeah- and with that tit for tat, I hope they both lay that shit to rest. And we at DU do too!

[phleshdef]

58. I'm a Bernie supporter who will vote for Hillary if Bernie doesn't win the nomination.

Both are worlds apart from this far right crop of Republicans who most are embracing either theocracy or nationalism or maybe a mixture of both. The ones that aren't going that route aren't winning primaries... though they pretty much all seem to embrace more war and more military industrial complex.

[bettyellen]

62. Yeah, I am also going to work for whoever gets the nod. And for congress and governor.

The clown car needs to crash, and it's going to take a long game no matter what.

[AzDar]

36. Such hypocrisy ...Of course, when a candidate has held just about EVERY position...

[Hekate]

42. KnR. Mozadek and Kissinger: two names from before these kids were born.

Sometimes that works for us. >smh<

[Gothmog]

44. Bernie has been attacking President Obama for years

Jonathan Alter
✔ ?@jonathanalter
Hillary is right. Bernie trashed Obama's policies routinely to me and other reporters, especially in 2011-2013 period.
5:48 PM - 11 Feb 2016
677 677 Retweets 519 519 likes

[JRLeft]

50. Alter Is pro Obama, he's really close to him.

[Hekate]

69. Does that invalidate his statement of fact about Bernie?

I don't think so.

[m-lekktor]

47. Young people think Hillary is dishonest and full of shit they don't give a fuck what she says.nt

[DJ13]

51. Hillary over did the hiding behind Obama thing in this debate

[bettyellen]

64. Bernie kissed some Obama butt too, LOL.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

54. False, false and false.

As to foreign policy, Bernie's critique does not "fall flat on basic logic." While HRC's technocratic command of facts on foreign policy current events is indisputable, I would be very uncomfortable with her as commander-in-chief. She would, if anything, be more hawkish than President Obama in foreign policy. Her philosophy is consistently one of regime change: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria, in each of these cases she has been in favor of regime change. With the exception of Afghanistan in 2002, each of these regime change adventures has made us less safe, destabilized the Middle East, and created greater anti-American sentiment and accelerated the recruitment of Islamic terrorists world wide. In other words, for the last 13 years we have been digging a hole and Hillary as president would accelerate the rate of digging, as opposed to Bernie who advocates that we stop digging.

As to Obama's leadership, it is a false characterization to assert that Bernie says it has been lacking. On the contrary, Bernie gives Obama high marks for leading us away from the Bush precipice. The criticism Bernie has asserted is that the president has not sufficiently utilized his supporters in the politics of combating GOP obstructionism. I agree with that critique. But I believe historians will treat the Obama administration as good or excellent in the implementation of policy on health care, saving the auto industry, on social justice (e.g. Ferguson), saving the American economy and his foreign policy initiatives with Iran and Cuba, as well as a higher moral tone than exhibited by any administration since Jimmy Carter. Bernie has complimented the president regarding these issues on many occasions.

As to Bernie's campaign and the historically unprecedented voter turnout in Democratic primaries in 2008, the stellar campaigning of Obama was undoubtedly a significant component of that turnout, but it would be disingenuous to overlook that the hated and arguably worst presidency in American history (i.e. of George W. Bush) did not also have a major impact on the 2008 Democratic primary turnout. The Dem turnout this year is second only to 2008 and by a large margin. It is significant that this turnout is so high despite the completion of a popular, two term Democratic president. I believe this is because of continued stagnation of wages, the lack of Wall Street accountability and the widespread feeling that the US economy and political system are rigged. This is why Bernie has broken so many records (for either party) up to this point in the cycle. So to pretend that Bernie's popular support is not historic already is contrafactual.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

75. Hey - nice post

many thanks

[Admiral Loinpresser]

78. Thx. n/t

[Bonobo]

57. Kick! nt

[Luminous Animal]

60. ….

[neverforget]

61. If she listens to Kissinger, what other Republican(s) will she listen too?

[bettyellen]

63. Did you miss the debate? She laid that meme to rest tonight.

[Peace Patriot]

66. Well, the "Kissinger thing" registered with ME!

I lived through that war criminal's horrors. He was actually WORSE than Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld!

Worse!

Millions and millions of people were slaughtered at his devising, in Southeast Asia, including almost 60,000 U.S. soldiers; millions of people were tortured and murdered in Latin America, at his devising, as his state department and the CIA toppled one democracy after another in that region, and he furthermore saw that the fascist dictators that he supported were schooled in some very special torture techniques for people guilty of being leftists--such as throwing them out of airplanes into the ocean, and taking the babies of leftist pregnant women, killing the mother and giving the baby away to a fascist family.

And on top of these horrors, his "opening to China" led to the destruction of U.S. manufacturing and the loss of millions of U.S. jobs.

He was a singularly destructive and murderous Sec of State--and it is an abomination that he is not in prison for war crimes--and THIS is a Hillary Clinton foreign policy adviser?!

Gawd.

But you gotta know some history, and the lessons of history, to fully understand what Bernie Sanders was saying tonight.

Sanders' right to oppose President Obama on occasion, and his duty as a U.S. Senator to do so--a right and duty that he eloquently defended tonight--visibly withered Clinton, and her charge that Sanders is "anti-Obama" (when it was SHE who ran against Obama!) was simply absurd, as well as hypocritical.

To me, he won this debate, hands down, on almost every point. And she was full of cant and obfuscation.

[Binkie The Clown]

68. He already has the younger voters. He's talking now to the older ones. n/t

[delrem]

71. It took at least one person exactly one nanosecond to go from Martin O'Malley supporter

to full on Kissinger applauding Kagan applauding war profiteering enabling neocon.

It was as close to instantaneous as can be.

[bigtree]

73. what a ugly lie

...state your own views and leave me to state my own.

[AtomicKitten]

74. so it seems

and the transition was seamless