2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHave you ever had a discussion with a smart person that really had command of the subject matter?
Last edited Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:22 AM - Edit history (3)
Because if you had, you would realize that wasn't what you were seeing with Hillary Clinton.
She is all smoke and mirrors, no real substance.
In fact, I feel like I'm watching a scripted reality tv show.
Update: Clinton really places a lot of emphasis on her hair and dress. It's been my experience that really smart people (those that have good judgment like Bernie) don't place much emphasis on their dress. But people that dress to the nines, we'll let's just say that I've always found them to be less than the sharpest tools in the shed. They tend to focus on projecting a certain image to cover up for a lack of intellectual substance.
We are constantly being told how accomplished Clinton is, a genius at domestic and foreign affairs? Really? What are the FACTS that support this assertion?
Note: A policy wonk that can remember arcane details does not a brilliant person make.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...I disagree. Hillary has a great deal of knowledge on the state of the world and how things are. We just differ greatly on what to do about it and what our role in the world is. She knows her stuff, she's just wrong about her conclusions and recommendations.
The notion around here that people who disagree with us are stupid or evil has really gotten out of hand.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Sanders supporters were like you, and most considered her a very acceptable second choice. So it may be out of hand here, but...oh, well.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)Rattling of memorized stuff is not impressive.
Stallion
(6,476 posts)including
as Secretary of State
Health Care reform in the 1990s
Equal Rights, woman and children's rights
some of the criticism of Clinton seem to be missing about 2 decades of fact
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)It didn't help that her health care meetings were in secret. That might have doomed them right there.
Did she campaign for equal rights? I must have missed that.
She might be for women's and children's rights, but she has advocated for "regime change" in three of the most secular countries of the Middle East, where women had enjoyed more rights than their sisters in theocratic countries.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)yep, pretty sexist and moronic. We should be better than this.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Hillary has the nomenclature down. They didn't use those words, but essentially, they said Bernie has more to offer the black community, but Hillary has a better command of the way to say it.
Now... I was a bit gobsmacked after that confession, but then I thought... That is probably an admission they didn't feel as comfortable saying themselves.
Not sure if this will play again, but it was on Al Jazeera earlier tonight.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)most of which include grabbing as much personal power as possible.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)Bernie's proposals happen to be more realistic particularly in the funding category because they do give everyone a stake in the game. 2.2% for Medicare for All is a huge example. Her prescription is the ultra populist (and unrealistic) "I'll get it from the rich!" Bernie asks people to be citizens...which will only increase everyone's investment in these policies succeeding.
JudyM
(29,277 posts)along the way so that she'll be deified. Bernie isnt into money or poe=wer for its own sake, he wants to help the kids starving on the street.
onecaliberal
(32,895 posts)deathrind
(1,786 posts)Once, and it was priceless lesson.
kcjohn1
(751 posts)But Hillary talk is smooth, and I'm going to say this as diplomatically as possible, she is what a person who doesn't have command of the issues thinks smart people sound like.
For example people think she is great on foreign policy when its actually one of her weakness. From Iraq war, failed mid-east policy (Libya, Egypt, etc), relying on neocons like Kissinger, etc. She says capital cities, and talks BS but her policy is as disastrous as any republican. But people think she is smart because she can put couple of sentences together?
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)candidate's supporters disagree with their candidate so frequently as I have here.
Was Bernie was just pandering- or lying?
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)A very interesting observation that is imo bang on. And your right about SoS disasters. Has anyone stated anything she got right? Anything that matches Kerry's successes as SoS?
Response to Skwmom (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Intelligence, being articulate, and command of the issues can be found on different sides of the same issues. I think Hillary has all of those attributes, in spades.
Intelligent articulate people should have their grounding and motivations carefully evaluated. They are able to convince people of anything.
Is there any correlation between intelligence and wisdom? I'm pretty cynical about that. I've seen so many brilliant minds use their intelligence to convince people of things that should not be believed. I have a profound distrust of intelligent people who are persuasive and have highly developed communication skills.
Buyer beware.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)convince people of just about anything (and it has nothing to do with intelligence).
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)I mean I wouldn't disagree with your subject line, but re Hillary, she is obviously highly intelligent, as is Bill. They're both excellent social manipulators, too, though Hillary's is more transparent than Bill's.
Bernie is intelligent and his intellect serves a greater purpose than ambition or career/monetary/power goals, which is what I see as being the governing forces for the Clintons' intellect.
Anyway we're just quibling, or discussing interesting nuances of all of this. I rec'd your OP and don't trust the Clintons, at all, they are not friends of anyone but the wealthy.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Is there any correlation between intelligence and wisdom? I'm pretty cynical about that. I've seen so many brilliant minds use their intelligence to convince people of things that should not be believed. I have a profound distrust of intelligent people who are persuasive and have highly developed communication skills.
Buyer beware."
Very wise, most Sociopaths are exactly as you describe, but lacking the ability to feel empathy or see others as fellow living beings, they often do great harm.
Fun fact: not all sociopaths are serial killers, but such comes easy for them. Most sociopaths gravitate to careers such as politicians and surgeons.
Buyer beware indeed.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)when you can make a killing off of them?
fun n serious
(4,451 posts)She had Bernie stuttering!
Logical
(22,457 posts)Renew Deal
(81,871 posts)And I think you know it.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)repeated. Constantly hearing how smart she is doesn't convince me.
Renew Deal
(81,871 posts)It's the "smoke and mirrors, no substance" part I disagree with. She is clearly knowledgeable and substantive.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)Renew Deal
(81,871 posts)And you don't have to take my word for it. Here's what Obama said:
"Her strengths, which are the fact that shes extraordinarily experienced and, you know, wicked smart and knows every policy inside and out"
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/off-message-podcast-transcript-obama-218167
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)big picture and making sound judgments, she fails miserably.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)DarthDem
(5,256 posts)Wow. What a reach. Plus a bonus wardrobe attack!
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)Skwmom
(12,685 posts)tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)Skwmom
(12,685 posts)LonePirate
(13,431 posts)It's probably not a good idea to draw any sort of conclusions between how she dresses and how much of a command (or not) of the issues she has.
BeyondGeography
(39,379 posts)the kind of people who bolt Yale Law to run a presidential campaign in Texas, come back six weeks later and ace their finals kind-of-smart. What I don't get about them is their post WH money and power obsessions, but neither one is faking it in the intelligence department.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)They did so much damage to this county the first go around, screwing up in monumental ways. How in the hell is that super-smart?
Stallion
(6,476 posts)you want to jump in here about Obama's birth certificate and college transcripts
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Beacool
(30,251 posts)Hillary not having command of the issues has never been something that anyone, even her enemies, has ever questioned. Hillary does her homework and is a policy wonk. She knows even the most arcane details about policy. So did Bill and Gore was like that too. I think that you are confusing the candidates.
Hillary not smart???? That is really precious.
Ahhh, the nonsense one reads here........
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)different skill set.
Beacool
(30,251 posts)Your OP is so off base to be funny.
Sorry, but you obviously do not know Hillary.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)may come off as intelligent when in fact they are just well prepped.
Beacool
(30,251 posts)You go ahead and keep thinking that Hillary is not intelligent.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)Is somebody who was a National Honor Society member and a Merit Scholarship finalist and has a B.S. From Wellesley and a J.D. from Yale Law School intelligent?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)JoeyT
(6,785 posts)I don't think Hillary is dumb. I thing she has a pretty good idea what's going on has a very different opinion of what should be fixed and how it should be fixed than I do.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)You write, "It's been my experience that really smart people (those that have good judgment like Bernie) don't place much emphasis on their dress." As a generalization, that's also been my experience, although it's only roughly accurate; there are many exceptions.
Nevertheless, my experience (and probably yours) is mostly with people who aren't in the public eye. Someone who'll be speaking at two outdoor rallies and two high school gyms today, and then doing a TV interview tonight, faces a different calculus. If you're trying to impress and influence people, you have to acknowledge that some will judge you based on superficial aspects of personal appearance. That unfortunately goes double for a woman. Hillary Clinton can expect that her hair, dress, and even make-up will be subject to media scrutiny, so she has to put more emphasis on such things.
From what I've read, Sarah Palin was excited at the opportunity to get a lot of new clothes on the campaign's dime. If a candidate reacts that way, you could make a case for citing it as suggestive of lower intelligence. For all I know, though, Hillary Clinton thinks of her attention to her appearance the way I think of putting on a suit and tie when I go into court to represent a client -- it's a nuisance but a necessary one.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)with her hair - when she was SecState most days seemed to be bad hair days. Some days she'd just quick-tie it at the back of her neck, and I'd be wondering what hell was breaking out where. Lol. Now, campaigning for president, the whole matter has obviously been put in the hands of a pro.
cali
(114,904 posts)Ridiculous
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)She has a B.S. From Wellesley and a J.D. from Yale Law School.
I suspect her I.Q. is north of 140.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)She had to have a really high LSAT which corresponds with I.Q.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)If his suits aren't off-the-rack, he'd better ask for his money back from whoever made them.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)I thought she would make a good veep for Bernie. Now, I am not so sure ...
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)she just doesn't have a spontaneous-sounding delivery. If you watched her at the most recent Benghazi hearing, she was fucking brilliant.
And that bit about her clothes: is that satire?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)intelligent women.
Justice
(7,188 posts)liberal N proud
(60,344 posts)Both times.
speaktruthtopower
(800 posts)speak for themselves. She's a top one percenter, along with million or so other people in the age range to run for President.
On the other hand her elevation from First Lady to the Senate in a state she had just moved to wasn't because she's smart, it was because she was connected, and tapped into Bill's wealthy Wall Street backers.
On the third hand, who else is that smart with similar experience?